Grace or Works - For It Cannot Be Both
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She doesn't hate Iraneus. And she doesn't lie.
I understand you don't realize what she wrote. She cross compared Iraneus claims regarding the Gnostics and showed where the Gnostics never taught nor believed as Iraneus claimed.
Anyone who respects and holds dear the New Testament in toto may wish to learn Iraneus,a Catholic Bishop, held that only 4 Gospels were true and to be held as pertaining to the faith.
https://www.historyofinformation.com/detail.php?entryid=190#:~:text=Irenaeus was successful in declaring,these four, contained the truth.
I understand you don't realize what she wrote. She cross compared Iraneus claims regarding the Gnostics and showed where the Gnostics never taught nor believed as Iraneus claimed.
Anyone who respects and holds dear the New Testament in toto may wish to learn Iraneus,a Catholic Bishop, held that only 4 Gospels were true and to be held as pertaining to the faith.
https://www.historyofinformation.com/detail.php?entryid=190#:~:text=Irenaeus was successful in declaring,these four, contained the truth.
I'm not Roman Catholic. I don't venerate those who slur other faiths in order to proclaim Christ approves lies as a proper tactic to prove His Light of Truth is Holy.
I also don't support Iraneus Recapitulation theory of Christ. I.E. He was truly possessed of a human nature.
And also,speaking of heresy. Iraneus belief about the age of Jesus at His death.
"The Thirty aeons are not typified by the fact that Christ was baptized in his 30th year: He did NOT suffer in the twelfth month after his baptism, but was more than 50 years old when he died."
Against Heresies II
https://ccel.org/ccel/irenaeus/against_heresies_ii/anf01.ix.iii.xxiii.html
I also don't support Iraneus Recapitulation theory of Christ. I.E. He was truly possessed of a human nature.
And also,speaking of heresy. Iraneus belief about the age of Jesus at His death.
"The Thirty aeons are not typified by the fact that Christ was baptized in his 30th year: He did NOT suffer in the twelfth month after his baptism, but was more than 50 years old when he died."
Against Heresies II
https://ccel.org/ccel/irenaeus/against_heresies_ii/anf01.ix.iii.xxiii.html
Gal_2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
This is what i believe ...man is not justified by the works of the law, We can not save ourselves... But the bible is full of verses that tell us to do God's will and do the works of righteousness. True faith will have true works. Faith in Jesus = works of righteousness.
The works are a natural result of the faith. James said it well and what James said applies today as much as it did in the past... God does not change.
Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Not doing the works of iniquity and doing the will of the father are important according to Jesus..
Mat 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.
...according to works we shall be rewarded.
Joh_5:36 But I have greater witness than that of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me.
Works bear witness....
Joh_8:39 They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.
our works bear witness as to who's children we are.
Act_26:20 But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.
...works meet for repentance must be different to works that don't show repentance...
Rom_13:3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:
When you are obeying the law you do not need to worry about good or bad works, breaking the rules or anything because you are obeying.
Rom_13:12 The night is far spent, the day is at hand: let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armour of light.
We are told to cast away the works of darkness.
Eph_2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
Created in Christ Jesus to do good works, and ordained by God to walk in those good works.
Eph_5:11 And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them.
1 Tim 2:10, 1 Tim 6:18, 2 Tim 3:17
Tit 1:15 Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled. 16 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.
Even thou you don't think James has any relevance for us. .... Jas_2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
1Jn_3:12 Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous.
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Our works are a result of two powers.... Christ or the Holy Spirit within, or the selfish flesh motivated by the devil...
If it is the Holy Spirit it is not our works but God working in us, all glory to God. By Faith we surrender to God and allow Him to work in us. The works are the fruits of the Spirit. If we are selfish and do what we want the fruits are seen in the works. Gal 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; ....... Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is ......
Gal 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
Gal 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
You can not seperate good works from the Spirit of God.
This is what i believe ...man is not justified by the works of the law, We can not save ourselves... But the bible is full of verses that tell us to do God's will and do the works of righteousness. True faith will have true works. Faith in Jesus = works of righteousness.
The works are a natural result of the faith. James said it well and what James said applies today as much as it did in the past... God does not change.
Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Not doing the works of iniquity and doing the will of the father are important according to Jesus..
Mat 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.
...according to works we shall be rewarded.
Joh_5:36 But I have greater witness than that of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me.
Works bear witness....
Joh_8:39 They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.
our works bear witness as to who's children we are.
Act_26:20 But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.
...works meet for repentance must be different to works that don't show repentance...
Rom_13:3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:
When you are obeying the law you do not need to worry about good or bad works, breaking the rules or anything because you are obeying.
Rom_13:12 The night is far spent, the day is at hand: let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armour of light.
We are told to cast away the works of darkness.
Eph_2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
Created in Christ Jesus to do good works, and ordained by God to walk in those good works.
Eph_5:11 And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them.
1 Tim 2:10, 1 Tim 6:18, 2 Tim 3:17
Tit 1:15 Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled. 16 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.
Even thou you don't think James has any relevance for us. .... Jas_2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
1Jn_3:12 Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous.
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Our works are a result of two powers.... Christ or the Holy Spirit within, or the selfish flesh motivated by the devil...
If it is the Holy Spirit it is not our works but God working in us, all glory to God. By Faith we surrender to God and allow Him to work in us. The works are the fruits of the Spirit. If we are selfish and do what we want the fruits are seen in the works. Gal 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; ....... Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is ......
Gal 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
Gal 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
You can not seperate good works from the Spirit of God.
Since you are slandering Irenaeus as a liar, consider his staunch opposition to gnostic heresies as slurring other faiths and imply he was a Roman Catholic, which he wasn't in the sense you're trying to imply, I'll mention that Irenaeus was a student of Polycarp, who was a student of John the apostle. So in the chain of doctrinal transmission he was John the apostle's grandson, and was thus very close to the what the apostles taught.
'Grace alone' should be enough to get christians to investigate the truth, for free gracers try their best to make faith a one time deal so that it is no longer "through faith".
"The just shall live by faith" & "faith without works is dead, being alone" should be enough.
But no, for every scripture they have an excuse. Not facts, just unproven excuses.
What's worse, the unproven excuses don't agree together.
The title says it must be one or the other. This is false. Faith is never of any use without works to prove it.
That is what fruit is all about. Fruitless people, having dead faith will not make it into Heaven.
"The just shall live by faith" & "faith without works is dead, being alone" should be enough.
But no, for every scripture they have an excuse. Not facts, just unproven excuses.
What's worse, the unproven excuses don't agree together.
The title says it must be one or the other. This is false. Faith is never of any use without works to prove it.
That is what fruit is all about. Fruitless people, having dead faith will not make it into Heaven.
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I think what first needs to be established is what is ment by "grace" we enter in. What is this grace?
Abraham spoke of it.
God himself shall supply the sacrifice.
Grace is unmerited favor given.
Abraham believed God...obeyed the command...built a alter. Offered what God had asked for.
Abraham spoke of it.
God himself shall supply the sacrifice.
Grace is unmerited favor given.
Abraham believed God...obeyed the command...built a alter. Offered what God had asked for.
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I must say that I cannot understand where you got the idea of good works never being from the Lord because I have clearly stated in other posts that the greatest of our good works is what He works through us.
Works are for reward. The problem arises when some cast salvation into the biblical writings where it does not at all belong. Salvation is not based upon our works, nor is it maintained by the efforts of our works. Our rewards are affected by our works, not our salvation for those who are truly saved.
MM
Works are for reward. The problem arises when some cast salvation into the biblical writings where it does not at all belong. Salvation is not based upon our works, nor is it maintained by the efforts of our works. Our rewards are affected by our works, not our salvation for those who are truly saved.
MM
That does indeed fit in with the message James wrote to the twelve tribes of Israel. He did not write that to the body of Christ, for it was not intended for us who are under the Gospel of Grace.
If you are placing yourself under the Kingdom Gospel, then you are beholden to the Law. Dare you rightly divide the word of truth, you will find that the Kingdom Gospel was not written TO us, as James made abundantly clear in James 1:1. That gospel is no longer active as a means to salvation for us today. It's great to venerate those original eleven for their teachings to Israel, but they were not the apostles to the Gentiles. Only Paul, and those he trained up were those sent to to preach the Gospel of Grace.
However, if you want to believe that you, by your own efforts, earned and can maintain your salvation, which is nothing but works-based salvation, then go for it. Nobody here is trying to force you to believe otherwise. All I do is ask that you at least read scripture systematically, in context, and allow it to speak for itself. Alternative teachings from pastors to the contrary of what scripture clearly teaches are guilty and will be judged doubly.
MM
If you are placing yourself under the Kingdom Gospel, then you are beholden to the Law. Dare you rightly divide the word of truth, you will find that the Kingdom Gospel was not written TO us, as James made abundantly clear in James 1:1. That gospel is no longer active as a means to salvation for us today. It's great to venerate those original eleven for their teachings to Israel, but they were not the apostles to the Gentiles. Only Paul, and those he trained up were those sent to to preach the Gospel of Grace.
However, if you want to believe that you, by your own efforts, earned and can maintain your salvation, which is nothing but works-based salvation, then go for it. Nobody here is trying to force you to believe otherwise. All I do is ask that you at least read scripture systematically, in context, and allow it to speak for itself. Alternative teachings from pastors to the contrary of what scripture clearly teaches are guilty and will be judged doubly.
MM
Are you now without sin? Are you not still a sinner, each and every day? Where's the line over which one can allegedly step to allegedly lose salvation? Do you know where it is? There seems to be lots of people out there who think THEY know where it is, but I can't get them to define it.
To say that ALL the epistles allegedly written to us all, that is not at all the case, and deeper study of scripture bears this out.
You cannot be saved by your works, nor can anyone maintain salvation by works. James wrote to those who were under the Kingdom Gospel. That gospel is no longer over us today. To say that it is over us today is to also claim that your sins were remitted by way of water baptism as was preached by Peter in Acts 2. That is NOT what we are under today. Believing otherwise is to believe another gospel that was not written TO us.
That is not to say that Peter should be accursed, for he spoke the truth that pertained to Israel at that time. It was TO THEM.
Paul, THE apostle to the Gentiles and the mystery given to him that remained hidden in God until revealed to Paul, and the Gospel given only to him and no other man until him, THAT is what is TO us today.
Going back under the works-based gospel will not obtain salvation for anyone today.
MM
To say that ALL the epistles allegedly written to us all, that is not at all the case, and deeper study of scripture bears this out.
You cannot be saved by your works, nor can anyone maintain salvation by works. James wrote to those who were under the Kingdom Gospel. That gospel is no longer over us today. To say that it is over us today is to also claim that your sins were remitted by way of water baptism as was preached by Peter in Acts 2. That is NOT what we are under today. Believing otherwise is to believe another gospel that was not written TO us.
That is not to say that Peter should be accursed, for he spoke the truth that pertained to Israel at that time. It was TO THEM.
Paul, THE apostle to the Gentiles and the mystery given to him that remained hidden in God until revealed to Paul, and the Gospel given only to him and no other man until him, THAT is what is TO us today.
Going back under the works-based gospel will not obtain salvation for anyone today.
MM