Grace through faith.

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Feb 17, 2010
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#1
How will we be saved? Grace through faith? please post the verse so we can see!
And what does this FAITH IN JESUS means... Do you have this faith, this UNWAVERING faith.... I do not hve it. Some say it is doubt? Well I might doubt MANY things about myself, but about God, NOPE! Not a single thing... There IS NOTHING in the Bible I do not believe 100%.

The only thing I do doubt, as ZONE correctly stated is.... AM I ALSO CHOSEN. I know 1000 people said I was, but what is the use, IF I CANNOT BELIEVE! I might be selfish today, to make it all about me AGAIN! But I hate it, when I ask God something, and it is not done! I hate it if I ask God to do as HE PROMISES, and nothing happens.

I ask NOTHING for myself, but for others, and I ask IN HIS WILL... BUT!!!! God does not hear, so I stopped asking. For four years now, I pray not, but just say... IF I SEE THIS, YOU SHOULD ALSO LORD.... YOU DAO AS YOU PLEASE, I ASK NOTHING!

Then there comes the times when I am just in conversation with the WORD if you like, maybe if I say I am in conversation with GOD people might take offence... So let us just say I start talkin Bible, and the Bible starts talking to me... Scripture would come up in my head, as NOTHING ever before... I would HEAR the Word of God in my head, and I would fight it and argue it, and more Scripture would come up, and if I take up the Bible and go to that scripture, the surrounding scripture would ALL FALL IN PLACE and I would be ENLIGHTENED by the TRUTH....

Those moments are amazing... And there is not one ounce of doubt in that. When I do want to pray, it is no longer REQUESTS, but rather... Speak lord thou servant listens... And I do. And HE DOES... but God cannot do this for no reason, so I would not jump the gun, but wait on the LORD.... He will DO what HE planned for my life.

The doubt I have? I still cannot believe HE CHOSE ME! That is UNREAL! And when I believe what HE IS GOING TO MAKE ME IN THE COMPLETED WORK OF GOD.... I just am bommed OUT. Few people believe what God REGENERATE... It is truly a GODLY WORK.


MAy God bless you with HIS POTTERY WORK! A vessel unto honour. Amen
 
P

prodigal

Guest
#2
First seek ye the kingdom of God and all these things will be given unto you
 

starfield

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2009
3,393
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#3
God has commanded all to repent...
Acts 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
Acts 17:31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

God's grace offers salvation to all...
Titus 2:11-14
11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

2 Pet 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Ezekiel 33:11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

Salvation is through Jesus Christ alone...
John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.


Acts 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

Rom 10:9-11
9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

God bless.
:)
 
Oct 31, 2011
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#4
God's kingdom is like a huge ball. It works if the entire ball is in place. Take a piece out and it won’t bounce. The Father for creation and for us to praise, Christ to forgive us so we live with Him forever, Faith in all God says and is so we can live traveling on the narrow road He has for us, that leads to the grace He gives us.
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
15,050
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#5
Saved by grace. Eph 2:8-9 Justified by Christ's faith. Gal 2:16

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 
N

Nancyer

Guest
#6
I hate it if I ask God to do as HE PROMISES, and nothing happens.

I ask NOTHING for myself, but for others, and I ask IN HIS WILL... BUT!!!! God does not hear, so I stopped asking. For four years now, I pray not, but just say... IF I SEE THIS, YOU SHOULD ALSO LORD.... YOU DAO AS YOU PLEASE, I ASK NOTHING!
I can see you believe in and love the Lord, it is clear. But you say you hate it when you ask God to deliver and He doesn't hear. You ask and God does nothing. Then you say "Do as you please". Perhaps God pleases to do something else at that time, something you can't see right then because your so focused on what your asking about.

I've come to a revelation of sort on this just recently. I got very upset on a couple of instances, brought me to tears and anger. But within a short period of time all was revealed. Had I been patient and waited on God to show me in His way I would have saved myself the crying and the outburst, for which I felt terrible. I realized that I can't see the future, what the day will or will not bring, even if that future is only 30 minutes away.

Know that God is working as God sees fit and He is loving your prayers and HEARING your prayers, even when you can't see results right away. Never hate when God doesn't do things your way, remember His timing is always perfect. I remind myself of that daily because I am praying and not yet seeing results but I know I will and I have to be patient. God's timing is perfect. If it has not happened it is not yet time.

In India there is a saying (I heard this in a movie, so I hope it's true) Everything will be alright in the end and if it is not alright then it is not yet the end. I think that is a good way to look at prayer and God's work in our lives.

God bless you my friend,

 
Oct 31, 2011
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#7
I can see you believe in and love the Lord, it is clear. But you say you hate it when you ask God to deliver and He doesn't hear. You ask and God does nothing. Then you say "Do as you please". Perhaps God pleases to do something else at that time, something you can't see right then because your so focused on what your asking about.

I've come to a revelation of sort on this just recently. I got very upset on a couple of instances, brought me to tears and anger. But within a short period of time all was revealed. Had I been patient and waited on God to show me in His way I would have saved myself the crying and the outburst, for which I felt terrible. I realized that I can't see the future, what the day will or will not bring, even if that future is only 30 minutes away.

Know that God is working as God sees fit and He is loving your prayers and HEARING your prayers, even when you can't see results right away. Never hate when God doesn't do things your way, remember His timing is always perfect. I remind myself of that daily because I am praying and not yet seeing results but I know I will and I have to be patient. God's timing is perfect. If it has not happened it is not yet time.

In India there is a saying (I heard this in a movie, so I hope it's true) Everything will be alright in the end and if it is not alright then it is not yet the end. I think that is a good way to look at prayer and God's work in our lives.

God bless you my friend,

I think we can pray without listening first to God's instructions on how to do it, and it is possible to pray without God hearing us at all because we don't follow Him. He gave very clear instructions, and if you get out the Lord's prayer, especially, it shows them. We are to address our prayers to God the Father. Not the Holy Spirit, and not the Son, but the Father. The Father gave us the Son for our salvation, He gave the HS for our understanding and power, they are God and when we address the Father we are also addressing them. Our prayers must be within the kingdom, we must know of how holy God is, and we can't be a person hanging tight to our sin as we go to Him.

I know of a person who had a prayer answered simply by letting go of a resentment of their parent they had held rather than direct appeal to God.

If we study scripture for instructions on prayer, we won't be praying amiss. Sometimes God has something better for us planned than how we ask, but God hears when we follow Him.
 
Nov 26, 2011
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#8
First seek ye the kingdom of God and all these things will be given unto you
Mat 6:33 But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.


Luk 13:24 Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.


Luk 11:9 And I say unto you, Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you.
Luk 11:10 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.


Many will seek to enter in and shall not be able?

He that seeks will find?

Contradiction???


Not at all. Isolated Bible verses more often than not do not give a complete picture (hence it is easy to twist scripture for those inclined).

Jesus admonished his listeners to STRIVE.

Strive - G75 - agōnizomai
From G73; to struggle, literally (to compete for a prize), figuratively (to contend with an adversary), or generally (to endeavor to accomplish something): - fight, labor fervently, strive.

Luk 13:24 Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.
Luk 13:25 When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are:
Luk 13:26 Then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets.
Luk 13:27 But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity.

One cannot be casual regarding salvation and eternal life. It is the MANY who are casual who SEEK to enter in and are not able to enter in at the strait gate. They are not able to enter because they refused to STRIVE.

Jesus warned that these casual people will cry "Lord, Lord" and yet Jesus will claim He NEVER knew them and demand they depart for they are workers of iniquity.

Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

It is the DOERS who strive.

Paul used the word strive in a very similar fashion to Jesus. Paul taught that we STRIVE for an INCORRUPTIBLE CROWN.

1Co 9:24 Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain.
1Co 9:25 And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible.
1Co 9:26 I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air:
1Co 9:27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

Striving involves keeping our body under subjection. To whom do we keep our bodies under subjection? To Jesus Christ and His Spirit.

Rom 8:10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
Rom 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
Rom 8:12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
Rom 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
Rom 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

Thus it is essential that we be led by the Spirit of God by which we mortify the deeds of the flesh and in doing this we shall find eternal life THROUGH Jesus Christ. For it is the Spirit of life IN Jesus Christ that sets us free from the law of sin and death (Rom 8:2). The gift of God is eternal life THROUGH Jesus Christ (Rom 6:23) and it is by ABIDING in the Spirit of Christ that we overcome the flesh, sin and the devil.
 
J

jerusalem

Guest
#9
i know that many are called but few are chosen.....but i think that the choice part is ours once called
 
Nov 26, 2011
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#10
What is eternal life worth?

Mat 13:45 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a merchant man, seeking goodly pearls:
Mat 13:46 Who, when he had found one pearl of great price, went and sold all that he had, and bought it.

EVERYTHING!

Luk 17:33 Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.

Jesus was clear that our minds eye must be solely fixated upon the Lord.

Mat 6:22 The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light.

For...

Mat 6:21 For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.

Hence...

Mar 12:30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.

Only those who forsake the things of this present world (thus dying to self) and truly abide in the Spirit of life in Jesus Christ will receive eternal life. Anything less will make a mockery of the teachings of Jesus and the prophets who would forever be known as the great exaggerators.

God will not be mocked.

Gal 6:7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
Gal 6:8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.
Gal 6:9 And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.

Many preach another way where you don't have to strive. Many preach another way where you don't have to lay aside all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness. Many preach another way where you don't have to depart from iniquity. Many preach another way where you don't have to be holy.

There are two roads. One is to life whilst the other is to death.

The road to life is through Jesus Christ, abiding in Him, walking IN Him, being in subjection to the will of God having laid aside our own. Only a FEW will choose this path and actually walk it. Many will profess to know Jesus but they do not walk as He walked, they do not walk by a faith that works by love.

At the very end of the Bible we read...

Rev 22:11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.
Rev 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
Rev 22:13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
Rev 22:15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

Which is why we must examine ourselves and see if we are TRULY in the faith.

2Co 13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

Paul was not a reprobate and neither should we be.

2Co 13:4 For though he was crucified through weakness, yet he liveth by the power of God. For we also are weak in him, but we shall live with him by the power of God toward you.
2Co 13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?
2Co 13:6 But I trust that ye shall know that we are not reprobates.


God bless.
 
C

Ciscokid

Guest
#11
Cobus, I believe in Grace through Faith., its scriptural. The typical text book definition of Grace is --the unmerited favor of God, and---- faith is believing--- in that the Grace God, has extended to us as sinners, will save us. Grace through faith,which I totally agree, is a wonderful thing.

Never the less, grace through faith, doesn't exempted Christians from their responsibility of being completely obedient to Gods word. WHAT EVER God commands us to DO in his word cannot be IGNORED. Some Christian have the insane notion, because they have "accepted Christ" their salvation is a done deal. NOT scriptural. Christians/sinners cannot be disobedient to Gods word and be saved---period. Believing and confessing---IS NOT-- the whole ball of wax as far as salvation is concerned.
Please, please, spare me "scriptures" that prove your OPINIONS--there are done. Gods commandments are not optional. Naturally folks will "twist" the scripture to fit their own agenda.
Romans 10:3 "....they being ignorant of God's righteousness go about to establish their own righteousness,..." they just ignore His Word. .They say things like, THAT is not for us, or the scripture doesn't mean that.

Romans 10 cannot be used as directions for salvation because its an Epistle/letter to saved folks.
NONE of the Epistles can be used. Confessing and believing--ONLY-- doesn't save. Salvation is by TOTAL Obedience to God word. Mainstream Christianity has totally ignored the OBEDIANCE to God word by saying any thing we DO is a work. They say we can't be saved by works. WELL what is repentance, prayer, fasting, OBEDIEANCE--- IF NOT A WORK???? Mainstream Christianity cannot tell the difference between DOING the WORKS of God and the self righteous works of man.
 
Feb 17, 2010
3,620
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#12
God's kingdom is like a huge ball. It works if the entire ball is in place. Take a piece out and it won’t bounce. The Father for creation and for us to praise, Christ to forgive us so we live with Him forever, Faith in all God says and is so we can live traveling on the narrow road He has for us, that leads to the grace He gives us.
Redtent you really this age (dare not say OLD)
 
Feb 17, 2010
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#13
Skinski we do share a lot and AGREE a lot, And in God ALL AGREE PERFECTLY... ONE SPIRIT...

Always a blessing to hear from you. Thank you Lord that YOU TEACH AND OTHERS ARE TAUGHT BY YOUR SPIRIT.
 

Grandpa

Senior Member
Jun 24, 2011
11,551
3,189
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#14
Many preach another way where you don't have to strive. Many preach another way where you don't have to lay aside all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness. Many preach another way where you don't have to depart from iniquity. Many preach another way where you don't have to be holy.

There are two roads. One is to life whilst the other is to death.

The road to life is through Jesus Christ, abiding in Him, walking IN Him, being in subjection to the will of God having laid aside our own. Only a FEW will choose this path and actually walk it. Many will profess to know Jesus but they do not walk as He walked, they do not walk by a faith that works by love.


God bless.
So which is it?

Do you lay aside your own will and be subject to God's will or do you strive to impose your own will onto iniquity, naughtiness, filthiness and holiness?

I suppose you don't yet understand the difference??

In other words, when we go to Christ and ask Him for blessings is it us that departs from iniquity or is it Him that causes us to depart from iniquity by blessing us?

Apart from Christ what are we able to do?

Look at the works of the flesh and the works of the Spirit. Do we cause our ownselves to do the work of the Spirit or does Christ grow the fruit?

It should be most obvious that we are to look to the Lord for all of our provision. This isn't such an easy thing. It's faith.

If you've been blessed by the Lord Jesus why would you preach another way? Perhaps you still don't understand...?
 
Nov 26, 2011
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#15
Cobus, I believe in Grace through Faith., its scriptural. The typical text book definition of Grace is --the unmerited favor of God, and---- faith is believing--- in that the Grace God, has extended to us as sinners, will save us. Grace through faith,which I totally agree, is a wonderful thing.

Never the less, grace through faith, doesn't exempted Christians from their responsibility of being completely obedient to Gods word. WHAT EVER God commands us to DO in his word cannot be IGNORED. Some Christian have the insane notion, because they have "accepted Christ" their salvation is a done deal. NOT scriptural. Christians/sinners cannot be disobedient to Gods word and be saved---period. Believing and confessing---IS NOT-- the whole ball of wax as far as salvation is concerned.
Please, please, spare me "scriptures" that prove your OPINIONS--there are done. Gods commandments are not optional. Naturally folks will "twist" the scripture to fit their own agenda.
Romans 10:3 "....they being ignorant of God's righteousness go about to establish their own righteousness,..." they just ignore His Word. .They say things like, THAT is not for us, or the scripture doesn't mean that.

Romans 10 cannot be used as directions for salvation because its an Epistle/letter to saved folks.
NONE of the Epistles can be used. Confessing and believing--ONLY-- doesn't save. Salvation is by TOTAL Obedience to God word. Mainstream Christianity has totally ignored the OBEDIANCE to God word by saying any thing we DO is a work. They say we can't be saved by works. WELL what is repentance, prayer, fasting, OBEDIEANCE--- IF NOT A WORK???? Mainstream Christianity cannot tell the difference between DOING the WORKS of God and the self righteous works of man.
It is good that you uphold obedience as mandatory but this "book definition" of "grace" is very inaccurate simply because it leaves so much out. Men have chosen to redefine grace as "unmerited favour" within the context that "God does all the work with man doing nothing." Thus "saved by grace through faith" IS TWISTED into meaning "accepting a package or provision" and then "waiting on God to do the work."

Here is what grace really means...

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

STRONGS
Grace - G5485 - charis
From G5463; graciousness (as gratifying), of manner or act (abstract or concrete; literal, figurative or spiritual; especially the divine influence upon the heart, and its reflection in the life; including gratitude): - acceptable, benefit, favour, gift, grace (-ious), joy liberality, pleasure, thank (-s, -worthy).

G5463 - chairō
A primary verb; to be full of “cheer”, that is, calmly happy or well off; impersonal especially as a salutation (on meeting or parting), be well: - farewell, be glad, God speed, greeting, hail, joy (-fully), rejoice.

THAYERS

  1. grace
    1. that which affords joy, pleasure, delight, sweetness, charm, loveliness: grace of speech
  2. good will, loving-kindness, favour
    1. of the merciful kindness by which God, exerting his holy influence upon souls, turns them to Christ, keeps, strengthens, increases them in Christian faith, knowledge, affection, and kindles them to the exercise of the Christian virtues
  3. what is due to grace
    1. the spiritual condition of one governed by the power of divine grace
    2. the token or proof of grace, benefit
      1. a gift of grace
      2. benefit, bounty
  4. thanks, (for benefits, services, favours), recompense, reward

The Bible also says this...

Tit 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
Tit 2:12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
Tit 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
Tit 2:14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

The grace of God that brings salvation TEACHES (note:- divine influence on the heart/holy influence on souls).

Thus when you combine Tit 2:11-12 with the dictionary definition clearly grace is God's "influence/empowerment given to man due His mercy/love."

Paul wrote associated the QUICKENING with being SAVED BY GRACE.

Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)

Paul mentioned the QUICKENING in his letter to the Colossians...

Col 2:11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
Col 2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
Col 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

Quickened
- G4806 -suzōopoieō
From G4862 and G2227; to reanimate conjointly with (figuratively): - quicken together with.

In verse 12 of Colossians Paul states "ye are risen with him through FAITH in the OPERATION of God."

Operation - G1753 - energeia
From G1756; efficiency (“energy”): - operation, strong, (effectual) working.

Thus clearly it is the power of God which raises us up/quickens WITH HIM whereby our sins are forgiven.

Another parallel...

Act 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;

Refreshing - G403 - anapsuxis
From G404; properly a recovery of breath, that is, (figuratively) revival: - revival.

Thus with the all the above in mind how is it that people preach grace as simpy "unmerited favour" WITHOUT ever referencing the quickening or that "grace teachess"? It is because in their mind the death of Christ was a "substitutionary legal transaction" made by which "God credits Christ's righteousness to them and having credited their sin to Christ [who took the full punishment in their place]" thus "saved by grace through faith" means to these people "trusting in a legal provision made on their behalf" where ANY WORK (not of works) would mean ADDING TO THE PROVISION. It is in this mindset that Satan's deception works convincing people that salvation is PURELY FORENSIC and thus they are SAVED IN THEIR SINS.

Read the above paragraph again and try and let it sink in. I know it is a mouthfull and there is a lot attached to it so initially it may not make much sense (especially if you view the death of Christ as a SUBSTITIONARY EXCHANGE which changes STATUS apart from a HEART CHANGE).

Paul taught that "we are saved by grace THROUGH faith" and the THROUGH so important.

Through - G1223 - dia
A primary preposition denoting the channel of an act; through (in very wide applications, local, causal or occasional). In composition it retains the same general import: - after, always, among, at, to avoid, because of (that), briefly, by, for (cause) . . . fore, from, in, by occasion of, of, by reason of, for sake, that, thereby, therefore, X though, through (-out), to, wherefore, with (-in). In composition it retains the same general import.

Paul wrote this...

Rom 5:2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

Paul also wrote this...

Rom 1:5 By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:

Grace is ACCESSED by faith and we receive grace for OBEDIENCE.

Paul also wrote that grace can be recieved in vain.

2Co 6:1 We then, as workers together with him, beseech you also that ye receive not the grace of God in vain.

The above is the dynamic MISSING from modern preaching. Satan has been able to eliminate the dynamic of WORKING TOGETHER with God as an ESSENTIAL ASPECT of genuine salvation taking place.

Workers Together with him - G4903 -sunergeō
From G4904; to be a fellow worker, that is, co-operate: - help (work) with, work (-er) together.

There is no possiblity of salvation taking place without this aspect of "working together with God." This is why if there is no "working together" grace is received in vain (not effectual to the saving of the soul).

If we look at Hebrews 11 the FAITH CHAPTER we see in every instance that FAITH is a FAITHFULNESS by which an individual RESPONDS to God and is a DOER of His will.

Hence in Hebrews 11 it says about Abraham and Noah...

Heb 11:7 By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.

Noah responded to God's grace (warning him about what was to take place and what he had to do about it) and Noah responded to that warning and obeyed God in building the ark. See how Noah was "saved by grace THROUGH faith." Noah's salvation (in the physical) was not a "done deal," rather Noah has to be an ACTIVE PARTICIPANT in his salvation. This does not mean Noah saved Himself (in the sense that he went at it alone) as many would accuse those who preach mandatory obedience, it simply means that God conditions that people YIELD.

In other words God does not save and ACTIVE REBEL. Rather God saved repentant FORMER rebels.

Heb 11:8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.

Abraham when called of God obeyed God. He trusted in God and thus submitted his well being to God and walked in the steps of this faith (Rom 4:12) for he was fully persuaded in his mind that what God said was true (Rom 4:21) and this is the KIND OF FAITH that God reckons as righteousness (Rom 4:5).

Is it any wonder that the Bible says...

Heb 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

Rom 2:6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
Rom 2:7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
Rom 2:8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

Rom 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
Rom 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

Gal 6:7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
Gal 6:8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.
Gal 6:9 And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.


Thus when the Bible says...

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

The context is that of...
1Jn 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
1Jn 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
1Jn 2:5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
1Jn 2:6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

Joh 15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
Joh 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
Joh 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.
Joh 15:7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.
Joh 15:8 Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.
Joh 15:9 As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love.
Joh 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

In conclusion when the Bible teaches that we are "saved by grace through faith, and not of ourselves, not of works lest any man should boast" it is simply teaching that salvation is wrought in being PLUGGED INTO GOD as opposed to salvation being wrought in anything else we do APART from being plugged into God.

Remember Satan is a MASTER THEOLOGIAN and he wields the scriptures masterfully to deceive. Multitudes of theologians today simply pass on that which they have been taught by other theologians without ever having truly examined the root of what they believe. They their minds are govererned by various strongholds of error which serve to keep them in a pen unable to see and hear that which is plainly in front of them.
 
Nov 26, 2011
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#16
So which is it?

Do you lay aside your own will and be subject to God's will or do you strive to impose your own will onto iniquity, naughtiness, filthiness and holiness?

I suppose you don't yet understand the difference??

In other words, when we go to Christ and ask Him for blessings is it us that departs from iniquity or is it Him that causes us to depart from iniquity by blessing us?

Apart from Christ what are we able to do?

Look at the works of the flesh and the works of the Spirit. Do we cause our ownselves to do the work of the Spirit or does Christ grow the fruit?

It should be most obvious that we are to look to the Lord for all of our provision. This isn't such an easy thing. It's faith.

If you've been blessed by the Lord Jesus why would you preach another way? Perhaps you still don't understand...?
You mind is subjected to the strongholds of error. I have a voluminous post history on this website whereby I have tried to be as clear as possible.

Your complete lack of understanding of my writings, and hence your erroneous conclusions are based your adherence to substitutional theology.

Hence you say things like...

Do you lay aside your own will and be subject to God's will or do you strive to impose your own will onto iniquity, naughtiness, filthiness and holiness?
Why such a statement? All I have ever said is that in a genuine repentance we lay aside our own will and submit ourselves to the leading of God. Salvation is in yielding to God as opposed to being in rebellion. SIMPLE!

You say things like...

In other words, when we go to Christ and ask Him for blessings is it us that departs from iniquity or is it Him that causes us to depart from iniquity by blessing us?

Apart from Christ what are we able to do?
Utter fallacy. All I have ever said is that it through "godly sorrow and repentance" that we are broken and thus a "willingness to submit" to God is born. It within this framework of going from a state of "rebellion to submission" (ie. repentance and conversion) that we plug into Christ THROUGH WHICH we are empowered to walk in victory.

This "apart from Christ" you speak of I suspect is rooted in the reformed fallacy of INABILITY in the sense that you believe that man is BORN A SINNER and thus has no ability to turn to God. Man actually has the full capability to turn to God in repentance because Jesus Christ is the Light which lights all men and the grace of God that teaches us the way we should go has appeared to all men.

The only real disability is those who spurn the grace of God to which the Bible warns that they be given over to a reprobate mind. If God pulls back then there is no hope for an individual, hence salvation is for today and not to be put off.

You say...

Look at the works of the flesh and the works of the Spirit. Do we cause our ownselves to do the work of the Spirit or does Christ grow the fruit?

It should be most obvious that we are to look to the Lord for all of our provision. This isn't such an easy thing. It's faith.
Do we cause ourselves, thus by implication you are stating that "God causes us." That is pure Calvinist "irresistible grace" which is a fallacy.



The Bible says this...

Php 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

That is the influence of God upon the heart of man. Yet it is not FORCE for God has given us to the CHOICE to either reject of abide in that influence.

Php 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

Work Out - G2716 - katergazomai
From G2596 and G2038; to work fully, that is, accomplish; by implication to finish, fashion: - cause, do (deed), perform, work (out).

Hence the working out is the THROUGH FAITH of Eph 2:8.

Your questions Grandpa are a common response. When people like me contend for MANDATORY OBEDIENCE people like you respond with subtle implications that we are preaching "saving ourselves APART from God" which is a fictional strawman produced in your mind.

Think carefully.
 

starfield

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2009
3,393
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#17
God's grace not only pardons the penitent sinner, it empowers them to fulfil the high calling of holiness thereafter. Though we sinned and deserved nothing but eternal condemnation He showed us His undeserved grace and love through His Son's sacrifice. All Glory to God alone.:)

Justified by grace
Transformed by grace
Sanctified by grace
Glorified by grace

Marvelous grace of our loving Lord,
Grace that exceeds our sin and our guilt!
Yonder on Calvary’s mount outpoured,
There where the blood of the Lamb was spilled.


Refrain

Grace, grace, God’s grace,
Grace that will pardon and cleanse within;
Grace, grace, God’s grace,
Grace that is greater than all our sin.


Sin and despair, like the sea waves cold,
Threaten the soul with infinite loss;
Grace that is greater, yes, grace untold,
Points to the refuge, the mighty cross.



Dark is the stain that we cannot hide.
What can avail to wash it away?
Look! There is flowing a crimson tide,
Brighter than snow you may be today.



Marvelous, infinite, matchless grace,
Freely bestowed on all who believe!
You that are longing to see His face,
Will you this moment His grace receive?



 

Grandpa

Senior Member
Jun 24, 2011
11,551
3,189
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#18
Do we cause ourselves, thus by implication you are stating that "God causes us." That is pure Calvinist "irresistible grace" which is a fallacy.



The Bible says this...

Php 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

That is the influence of God upon the heart of man. Yet it is not FORCE for God has given us to the CHOICE to either reject of abide in that influence.

Php 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

Work Out - G2716 - katergazomai
From G2596 and G2038; to work fully, that is, accomplish; by implication to finish, fashion: - cause, do (deed), perform, work (out).

Hence the working out is the THROUGH FAITH of Eph 2:8.

Your questions Grandpa are a common response. When people like me contend for MANDATORY OBEDIENCE people like you respond with subtle implications that we are preaching "saving ourselves APART from God" which is a fictional strawman produced in your mind.

Think carefully.
I'm going to ignore all the rest of what you posted and just focus on this last bit. We've gone round and round on the other stuff and I'll just leave you alone on all that...

Jeremiah 33:9 [SUP] [/SUP]And it shall be to me a name of joy, a praise and an honour before all the nations of the earth, which shall hear all the good that I do unto them: and they shall fear and tremble for all the goodness and for all the prosperity that I procure unto it.

Are you starting to see what Php 2:12 is saying? Salvation has been procured unto us, this is the goodness and prosperity spoken of in Jeremiah...

Ezekiel 36:27 And I will put my spirit within you,
and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

Are you starting to see what Php2:13 is saying? He puts His Spirit within us and He causes us to walk in His statutes, this is His Will and good pleasure.

What does the Law say? It demands mandatory obedience. Sound familiar? The bible says that the Law is our tutor to bring us to Christ.

That is because the Lord Jesus Christ is the beginning and the end of our Righteousness. There is nothing more for us to add. The Lord Jesus cleanses us from all of our sins and when we abide in Him He grows the Spirit which is inside of us.

But I suppose if you deny the fact that we are born into sin, if you deny the fact that the Lord Jesus has taken punishment so we don't have to, if you deny the fact that God causes us to walk in His statutes, I suppose there is not much faith left for you to believe that He can make us Righteous too. So I suppose I have answered my own questions...

I already knew what the answers were I was just hoping you might see them too.
 
Nov 26, 2011
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#19
I'm going to ignore all the rest of what you posted and just focus on this last bit. We've gone round and round on the other stuff and I'll just leave you alone on all that...

Jeremiah 33:9 And it shall be to me a name of joy, a praise and an honour before all the nations of the earth, which shall hear all the good that I do unto them: and they shall fear and tremble for all the goodness and for all the prosperity that I procure unto it.

Are you starting to see what Php 2:12 is saying? Salvation has been procured unto us, this is the goodness and prosperity spoken of in Jeremiah...

Ezekiel 36:27 And I will put my spirit within you,
and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

Are you starting to see what Php2:13 is saying? He puts His Spirit within us and He causes us to walk in His statutes, this is His Will and good pleasure.

What does the Law say? It demands mandatory obedience. Sound familiar? The bible says that the Law is our tutor to bring us to Christ.

That is because the Lord Jesus Christ is the beginning and the end of our Righteousness. There is nothing more for us to add. The Lord Jesus cleanses us from all of our sins and when we abide in Him He grows the Spirit which is inside of us.

But I suppose if you deny the fact that we are born into sin, if you deny the fact that the Lord Jesus has taken punishment so we don't have to, if you deny the fact that God causes us to walk in His statutes, I suppose there is not much faith left for you to believe that He can make us Righteous too. So I suppose I have answered my own questions...

I already knew what the answers were I was just hoping you might see them too.
You ignore the whole counsel of God.

What you do is focus on very specific passages in order to paint the picture that God does everything. Basically your theology has a human being being born a sin robot. The sin robot sins because that is the sin robots base program and there is nothing that the sin robot can do about it.

God then saves the sin robot by reprogramming the base program in order that it become an obedient robot.

Thus you take a passage like Eze 36:27 and present it in such a way as to COMPLETELY OMIT any reference whatsoever to FREE WILL. When free will is denied there is no responsibility on the part of man for his actions.

Look at what you say here...

What does the Law say? It demands mandatory obedience. Sound familiar? The bible says that the Law is our tutor to bring us to Christ.
Here you equate preaching obedience to God as preaching obedience to the law. Those are two very different things.

The law is an OUTWARD SET of rules which if obeyed (to the letter) ONLY serve to regiment the outward man. The law does NOTHING for the heart of a man. Hence true righteousness (which flows from a pure heart) can NEVER be by the law.

The law points an individual to Christ because it paints a picture of what righteousness looks like. Thou shalt not kill, steal, lie or cheat are OUTWARD COMMANDS.

Jesus Christ did not kill, steal, lie or cheat and thus was fulfilling the outward commands of the law. Yet Jesus was not UNDER the law for the reason He did not kill, steal, lie or cheat is because He walked by a faith THAT WORKS BY LOVE and thus walked in the will of God.

This is how we are to walk. We to lay aside all rebellion to God in repentance and then yield our wills to the will of God and walk in His ways. The Spirit of God infills us and empowers us to walk in victory ONLY if we are WILLING.

The Spirit of God will not indwell an individual who remains in rebellion. The rebellion has to cease.

Thus to teach that "salvation has been procured unto us" in a POSITIONAL/FORENSIC sense whereby one is "saved whilst still in rebellion" is a gross distortion of what the Bible teaches.

Peter stated this...

2Pe 1:3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue: [GRACE]
2Pe 1:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

Modern theology completely ignores the aspect of "having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust" yet is is right there in the Bible.

There is no salvation apart from "having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust." In fact Peter goes on to say...

2Pe 1:5 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;
2Pe 1:6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;
2Pe 1:7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.
2Pe 1:8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
2Pe 1:9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.
2Pe 1:10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:
2Pe 1:11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

Thus the "adding to one's faith with due diligence" comes AFTER "having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust."

What Peter teaches is the complete opposite of what is taught today.

Those that are Christ's...

Gal 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

Whereby the body of sin has been destroyed once and for all.

Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
Rom 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

Hence those who are IN Christ DO NOT SERVE SIN.

Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
Rom 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
Rom 6:18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

Your doctrine is the complete opposite of what the Bible teaches which is why you have no answer for the scriptures I bring up.

The "obedience from the heart" is ABSOLUTELY MANDATORY in order that one be set free from sin. Yet you teach that God MAKES YOU OBEY by pulling a passage like Eze 36:27 completely out of context in order to teach this "God does it all and you don't have to do anything because God will make you do it at some stage anyway."

Thus as I said in an earlier post your gospel has completely eliminated the aspect of "working together with God."

You would have God coming to Noah, warning him of the flood, instructing him how to build the ark and then MAKING Noah build it. That is error.

Jesus clearly taught that we are to be DOERS of the word and not HEARERS ONLY. Jesus never gave any indication whatsoever that God MAKES you a doer. Jesus did teach that we can only produce fruit by abiding in Him but Jesus never taught that God MAKES us abide in Him.

Whether to abide or rebel is the choice we have to make.

If we hear his word and do it then we are like wise men who build our houses on the rock. We build our houses, God does not build them for us. God provides all that we need to build them but WE have to get to work which is faith.

To sum it up, all we have to do it simply YIELD to God. That's it. He leads and we follow. If we do that then we are secure indeed. If we do it not then our souls are in peril and repentance is needed.

God bless.
 
Nov 26, 2011
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#20

That is because the Lord Jesus Christ is the beginning and the end of our Righteousness. There is nothing more for us to add. The Lord Jesus cleanses us from all of our sins and when we abide in Him He grows the Spirit which is inside of us.


Your doctrine has one "abiding in Christ" and "abiding in sin" at the same time. It is error. There is no "abiding in Christ" unless 'rebellion to God" is forsaken first. This is why James would write this...


Jas 1:21 Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.
Jas 1:22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.

There is no receiving with meekness the implanted word without having laid aside ALL filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness. That verse is completely ignored today by the theologians. They skip over it or explain it away.

Jesus preached REPENTANCE which is where the "laying aside of all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness" occurs. Nineveh laid aside all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness in Jonah 3 and Jesus used Nineveh as a specific example of repentance.

Not today though, repentance is redefined to be a "confession of sinfulness." Human responsibility and thus culpability for CHOOSING TO SIN has been thrown out the window. The sinner is relegated to a victim of birth as opposed to a criminal by intent.

Hence...

But I suppose if you deny the fact that we are born into sin
Thus instead of being "born into a sinful world" like the Bible teaches you hold to a doctrine where "sin is born in you" as some sort of substance whereby you sin not of your own choosing. Thus actual sin is a symptom of a sin disease rather than a crime against God.

Thus you'll go on with fallacious reasoning...

if you deny the fact that the Lord Jesus has taken punishment so we don't have to, if you deny the fact that God causes us to walk in His statutes, I suppose there is not much faith left for you to believe that He can make us Righteous too. So I suppose I have answered my own questions...
Jesus was not punished in your place. Jesus died on your behalf so that your previous sins be remitted when you die with Him. It is by partaking in the sufferings of Christ that we put on the mind of Christ and have victory over the world.

Your Gospel has perverted the death of Christ into a substitutional legal transaction whereby one is pronounced righteous when they are still inwardly filthy. You view the cross as a SIN CLOAK. Grace to you is license to keep on sinning although you'll teach you "shouldn't" sin you'll never teach "go and sin no more" like Jesus taught.

When the Bible teaches that God "causes us to walk in His statutes" it is in the context of God making our spirit alive to God (quickening/refreshing) whereby the love of God is perfect IN US hence we partake in the DIVINE NATURE and walk in the will of God because WE LOVE TO DO IT.

There is no twisting of the arm as your doctrine implies. We have to be willing. Willingness is produced via a broken repentance whereby we TRULY come to realise that we are not God and that God is God and that His will is the RIGHT WAY. Thus with this mental attitude we CHOOSE to WALK THE RIGHT WAY which is simply abiding in the Spirit of life in Jesus Christ.

It is a very simple message.


Seek God and yield to Him.