Hades / The Grave

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Webers.Home

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May 28, 2018
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#1
.
The comments and questions below are relative to Luke 16:19-31.

How is it that the rich man and Abraham were able to see from their own
grave into each other's grave? Do dead people have X-ray vision? Do they
have any vision at all let alone X-ray?

Do dead people actually have the ability to communicate with other dead
people? You'd think that dead people would be deaf and mute seeing as how
they're deceased and no longer sentient.

What is the nature of the barrier that existed between Abraham's grave and
the rich man's grave? The story suggests dead people could, and would, visit
one another's graves were it not for the barrier separating them.

From whence did the rich man assume that Lazarus could fetch water? Was
Lazarus' grave adjacent to an aquifer or some such?

The story suggests that Abraham and Lazarus shared the same grave, i.e.
Lazarus' corpse was laid to rest stacked on top of Abraham's corpse.

The story tells that Lazarus' pall bearers were angels. Is that common, or
was Lazarus' funeral a special event?
_
 
Mar 28, 2016
15,954
1,528
113
#2
.
The comments and questions below are relative to Luke 16:19-31.

How is it that the rich man and Abraham were able to see from their own
grave into each other's grave? Do dead people have X-ray vision? Do they
have any vision at all let alone X-ray?


Do dead people actually have the ability to communicate with other dead
people? You'd think that dead people would be deaf and mute seeing as how
they're deceased and no longer sentient.


What is the nature of the barrier that existed between Abraham's grave and
the rich man's grave? The story suggests dead people could, and would, visit
one another's graves were it not for the barrier separating them.


From whence did the rich man assume that Lazarus could fetch water? Was
Lazarus' grave adjacent to an aquifer or some such?


The story suggests that Abraham and Lazarus shared the same grave, i.e.
Lazarus' corpse was laid to rest stacked on top of Abraham's corpse.


The story tells that Lazarus' pall bearers were angels. Is that common, or
was Lazarus' funeral a special event?
_
We must go to the foundation of the teaching. The context begins in the previous chapter. . . an answer to them that saw no comfort to Christ teaching, the self righteous Jew. .

Then drew near unto him all the publicans and sinners for to hear him.And the Pharisees and scribes murmured, saying, This man receiveth sinners, and eateth with them. Luke15:1-2

A series of 5 parables all having the same final message .as it is written alone..(the law and the prophets)

And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.Luke 16:31

literalist today take away the understanding found in the last of the series of parables (above) .Hearing the law and the prophets (sola scriptura) not the oral traditions of the Pharisees adding their own oral twist . .

They say right in the middle of a series of parables he gave a literal interpretation. making the parable and the hidden understanding without effect.

The dead know nothing, feel nothing. remember nothing the moment they stop breathing the temporal breath returns to the father and their spiritless bodies return to the dust. ..

Psalm 104:29 Thou hidest thy face, they are troubled: thou takest away their breath, they die, and return to "their dust."

Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
11,159
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#3
.
The comments and questions below are relative to Luke 16:19-31.

How is it that the rich man and Abraham were able to see from their own
grave into each other's grave? Do dead people have X-ray vision? Do they
have any vision at all let alone X-ray?


Do dead people actually have the ability to communicate with other dead
people? You'd think that dead people would be deaf and mute seeing as how
they're deceased and no longer sentient.


What is the nature of the barrier that existed between Abraham's grave and
the rich man's grave? The story suggests dead people could, and would, visit
one another's graves were it not for the barrier separating them.


From whence did the rich man assume that Lazarus could fetch water? Was
Lazarus' grave adjacent to an aquifer or some such?


The story suggests that Abraham and Lazarus shared the same grave, i.e.
Lazarus' corpse was laid to rest stacked on top of Abraham's corpse.


The story tells that Lazarus' pall bearers were angels. Is that common, or
was Lazarus' funeral a special event?
_
Hello Webers.Home,

I'm afraid that you are greatly mistaken. Since it appears that you have read the event of the rich man and Lazarus, you should have also read that when the rich man died he (his spirit) was found in Hades in torment in flame. Hades is not the grave, but is defined as the realm of departed spirits, as described below.

========================================
Strong's Concordance
hadés: Hades, the abode of departed spirits
Original Word: ᾍδης, ου, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: hadés
Phonetic Spelling: (hah'-dace)
Definition: Hades, the abode of departed spirits
Usage: Hades, the unseen world.

HELPS Word-studies
86
hádēs (from 1 /A "not" and idein/eidō, "see") – properly, the "unseen place," referring to the (invisible) realm in which all the dead reside, i.e. the present dwelling place of all the departed (deceased); Hades.
=======================================

Sheol (Hebrew)and Hades (Greek) are the same place, which is located in the heart of the earth.

"And you, Capernaum, will you be lifted up to heaven? No, you will be brought down to Hades! For if the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Sodom, it would have remained to this day."

According to the scripture, the rich man could see Abraham afar off with Lazarus by his side. Hades has two separate areas which are divided by a great chasm so that no one from either side could pass over to the other. Lazarus was in the area of comfort with Abraham and all the rest of the OT saints, where the rich man was in the area of torment in flame with the rest of the wicked and was not speaking from his grave. Jesus was referring to this realm of comfort/paradise when the thief crucified next to him said, "Lord, remember me when you come into your kingdom. And Jesus said, 'Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise." Regarding this one would have to ask the question as to how Jesus could make this promise to be in paradise when they both died that very same day? The answer is that after Jesus and the man died their spirits went down to Hades to that place of comfort, while their dead bodies were up on the earth, with Jesus being put in the tomb belonging to Joseph of Arimathea.

Sometime after the Lord's resurrection, all of the spirits of the OT saints were removed from Hades and taken to heaven and which from that time forward is where the spirits of those who die in Christ go (2 Cor.5:6-8, Phil.1:21-22, Rev.6:9-11). In opposition to this, the unrighteous dead continue to pour into Hades 24/7 and will they will remain in Hades until the great white throne judgment where they will be resurrected and will stand before God to be judged for all their sins (Rev.20:11-15).

Neither Sheol nor Hades should ever be translated as "the grave."
 

Deuteronomy

Well-known member
Jun 11, 2018
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#4
The dead know nothing, feel nothing. remember nothing the moment they stop breathing the temporal breath returns to the father and their spiritless bodies return to the dust.
Since this thread is already headed in this direction (as it should be, considering the OP), here are a few of the Biblical reasons that explain why the church (all of it, all of the churches/denominations within the pale of Christian orthodoxy, that is) has always taught that the sleep of the soul (during the Intermediate State) is heresy.

Matthew 17
1 Six days later Jesus took with Him Peter and James and John his brother, and led them up on a high mountain by themselves.
2 And He was transfigured before them; and His face shone like the sun, and His garments became as white as light.
3 And behold, Moses and Elijah appeared to them, talking with Him.
4 Peter said to Jesus, “Lord, it is good for us to be here; if You wish, I will make three tabernacles here, one for You, and one for Moses, and one for Elijah.”
5 While he was still speaking, a bright cloud overshadowed them, and behold, a voice out of the cloud said, “This is My beloved Son, with whom I am well-pleased; listen to Him!”
6 When the disciples heard this, they fell face down to the ground and were terrified.
7 And Jesus came to them and touched them and said, “Get up, and do not be afraid.”
8 And lifting up their eyes, they saw no one except Jesus Himself alone.
2 Corinthians 5
6 Therefore, being always of good courage, and knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord
7 for we walk by faith, not by sight—
8 we are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord.
9 Therefore we also have as our ambition, whether at home or absent, to be pleasing to Him.
Philippians 1
21 For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain.
22 But if I am to live on in the flesh, this will mean fruitful labor for me; and I do not know which to choose.
23 But I am hard-pressed from both directions, having the desire to depart and be with Christ, for that is very much better;
24 yet to remain on in the flesh is more necessary for your sake.
Revelation 6
9 When the Lamb broke the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God, and because of the testimony which they had maintained;
10 and they cried out with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, will You refrain from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth?”

Here are a few things to consider. If we/our souls become lifeless like our bodies are in death, then:

1. Why was an exception made for Moses? (Elijah never died as you may remember, rather, has was taken to Heaven directly on a chariot of fire)
2. What does the Apostle mean when he speaks of being "absent from the body" and "at home with the Lord"?​
3. How could we possibly make "pleasing God" our "ambition" in death if our souls are not alive/conscious after we die?​
4. How could the Apostle Paul think that dying (rather than continuing on in fruitful service here, to both God and the church) could be some kind of "gain", or that an unconscious death of the soul could in any way be "very much better" than living on would be?​
5. Why is an exception made for the souls of the martyrs in Heaven? If they remained with their bodies in the ground, how are they found in Heaven crying out in a loud voice to the Lord?​

Thanks!

~Deut

Luke 16
19 There was a rich man, and he habitually dressed in purple and fine linen, joyously living in splendor every day.
20 And a poor man named Lazarus was laid at his gate, covered with sores,
21 and longing to be fed with the crumbs which were falling from the rich man’s table; besides, even the dogs were coming and licking his sores.
22 Now the poor man died and was carried away by the angels to Abraham’s bosom; and the rich man also died and was buried.
23 In Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and saw Abraham far away and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 And he cried out and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus so that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool off my tongue, for I am in agony in this flame.
25 But Abraham said, Child, remember that during your life you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus bad things; but now he is being comforted here, and you are in agony.
26 And besides all this, between us and you there is a great chasm fixed, so that those who wish to come over from here to you will not be able, and that none may cross over from there to us.
27 And he said, Then I beg you, father, that you send him to my father’s house—
28 for I have five brothers—in order that he may warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.
29 But Abraham said, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear them.
30 But he said, No, father Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent!
31 But he said to him, If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be persuaded even if someone rises from the dead.
.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
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#5
"The dead know nothing" is what we are told in Ecclesiastes 9:5 :)
 
Nov 23, 2013
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#6
"The dead know nothing" is what we are told in Ecclesiastes 9:5 :)
Mat 22:32 (KJV) I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

:)
 

Webers.Home

Well-known member
May 28, 2018
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#7
.
For some time now, I've been curious from whence the Bible obtained that
story in Luke 16:19-31. It's commonly attributed to Jesus, but I've so far
been unable to locate any textual evidence proving beyond a shadow of
sensible doubt, or even suggesting, that he actually taught it.

That story seems to me out of place; sort of a footnote plopped into the
midst of Luke's gospel like an afterthought.
_
 

tourist

Senior Member
Mar 13, 2014
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#8
.
The story tells that Lazarus' pall bearers were angels. Is that common, or
was Lazarus' funeral a special event?
_
Apparently, Lazarus opted for the deluxe package when he negotiated the cost for the funeral. Angels can't be cheap. They probably charge by the hour.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
24,601
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#9
What is the nature of the barrier that existed between Abraham's grave and the rich man's grave?
You are already off track. Abraham, Lazarus, and the Rich Man were all in Hades.

SHEOL/HADES IS NOT THE GRAVE, AND THE GRAVE IS NOT SHEOL/HADES.
 

Deuteronomy

Well-known member
Jun 11, 2018
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#11
Hi @Webers.Home, if you are an Amazon Prime member, there is an excellent series that's available there for free right now. It's by Dr. R C Sproul and it's called, The Parables of Jesus. It includes 12 short lectures on 10 of Jesus' parables, plus the story of Lazarus and the Rich Man, as well a useful/informative intro to the parables in general.

Just FYI.

~Deut
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
56,272
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#13
You’re either dead or you’re asleep.
Sleep is often used as a metaphor for death, including by Jesus Himself, and sleep does not connote awareness, as many assume and insist it does, despite Scripture explicitly stating that the dead know nothing.
 

Deade

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#14
Nobody is in heaven or hell yet! I believe the dead are asleep. Paul may have said: to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. OK, to close your eyes at night: presto - it is morning. It is the same principal.

Nobody is in heaven yet: John 3:13: "And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven." They are asleep.

Acts 2:29: "Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day."

Acts 2:34, 35: "For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, Until I make thy foes thy footstool."

All the OT patriarchs are mentioned in Heb.11 and none of them have received their reward yet. Heb. 12 is just a reference to Mount Zion which is new Jerusalem, yet future. Heb. 11:40: "God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect." New Jerusalem is being prepared and is coming to earth with the "many mansions" that the father is preparing.

Be aware that Sheol and Hades simply refers to the grave. Our doctrine of a dwelling place of the dead is inserted into Strong's Concordance as a reference. The reference in Revelation where they are tormented day and night forever, their smoke ascending forever could refer to something captured on film, therefore forever preserved. The reference in Mark 9:44: "Where their worm dieth not and the fire is not quenched" I believe is another example of that. It just does not make sense of a maggot that never dies.

All said, as I stated before all scripture has to fit together, in what we teach, or none of it is valid. Some things were presented in parables with figurative speech. Some things maybe we don't quite understand yet. God will not reveal some things until He is ready for us to know.

I feel Lazarus and the rich man is a parable despite the proper names. Besides it is just in one place in scripture without a second witness. 2 Cor. 13:1 "This is the third time I am coming to you. In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established." :cool:
 

SoulWeaver

Senior Member
Oct 25, 2014
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#15
Matthew 17
1 Six days later Jesus took with Him Peter and James and John his brother, and led them up on a high mountain by themselves.
2 And He was transfigured before them; and His face shone like the sun, and His garments became as white as light.
3 And behold, Moses and Elijah appeared to them, talking with Him.
.
I am agreeing with your point, you seem to back it up very nicely, I'll just add this. Especially since it's the Transfiguration event, it makes it very highly probable that Jesus actually talked to Moses and Elijah into the past. There's no way to prove it definitely, but I rather think that Jesus transcended the bounds of time in that moment and showed Himself to Moses and Elijah into their respective time points in history. I know, mindblowing! Furthermore, Jesus interacted with them both, but Moses and Elijah were not told to have communicated between themselves. Moses and Elijah are not said to even acknowledge that the disciples were there, it seems they only saw Jesus. It's also possible that Jesus talked to Moses and Elijah that were resting in Heaven, but my argument is - what would be the purpose of showing that to the disciples and letting us know about it? It seems to me like a no-brainer that Jesus would be able to do that. However, transcending time would really drive the point that Jesus was and is the Word of God and was God, from the beginning.
 

Poinsetta

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Nov 24, 2018
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#16
Nobody is in heaven or hell yet! I believe the dead are asleep. Paul may have said: to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. OK, to close your eyes at night: presto - it is morning. It is the same principal.

Nobody is in heaven yet: John 3:13: "And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven." They are asleep.

Acts 2:29: "Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day."

Acts 2:34, 35: "For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, Until I make thy foes thy footstool."

All the OT patriarchs are mentioned in Heb.11 and none of them have received their reward yet. Heb. 12 is just a reference to Mount Zion which is new Jerusalem, yet future. Heb. 11:40: "God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect." New Jerusalem is being prepared and is coming to earth with the "many mansions" that the father is preparing.

Be aware that Sheol and Hades simply refers to the grave. Our doctrine of a dwelling place of the dead is inserted into Strong's Concordance as a reference. The reference in Revelation where they are tormented day and night forever, their smoke ascending forever could refer to something captured on film, therefore forever preserved. The reference in Mark 9:44: "Where their worm dieth not and the fire is not quenched" I believe is another example of that. It just does not make sense of a maggot that never dies.

All said, as I stated before all scripture has to fit together, in what we teach, or none of it is valid. Some things were presented in parables with figurative speech. Some things maybe we don't quite understand yet. God will not reveal some things until He is ready for us to know.

I feel Lazarus and the rich man is a parable despite the proper names. Besides it is just in one place in scripture without a second witness. 2 Cor. 13:1 "This is the third time I am coming to you. In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established." :cool:
Why was this exed? I totally agree with this post.
 

SoulWeaver

Senior Member
Oct 25, 2014
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#17
Nobody is in heaven or hell yet! I believe the dead are asleep. Paul may have said: to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. OK, to close your eyes at night: presto - it is morning. It is the same principal.

Nobody is in heaven yet: John 3:13: "And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven." They are asleep.

Acts 2:29: "Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day."

Acts 2:34, 35: "For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, Until I make thy foes thy footstool."
Could this be referring only to our physical bodies? I mean, the bodies have not been resurrected yet, except for Jesus we didn't get the new bodies, even the saints that were resurrected some time after Jesus didn't ascend but died later. Jesus in His new body could walk through the walls. The soul, the breath, goes away with physical death. Could the spirits still end up with God though, but bodies being asleep until the last day?

All the OT patriarchs are mentioned in Heb.11 and none of them have received their reward yet. Heb. 12 is just a reference to Mount Zion which is new Jerusalem, yet future. Heb. 11:40: "God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect." New Jerusalem is being prepared and is coming to earth with the "many mansions" that the father is preparing.
Actually, Jerusalem are the believers. We are called the city on the hill. We are the Bride who is being prepared. And it is an ongoing progress until the end of humankind, and God will expand the city with as many people as He sees fit. It says "I'm preparing the place for you" but actually we are the place that is being prepared for Him.
 

Deade

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#18
I am agreeing with your point, you seem to back it up very nicely, I'll just add this. Especially since it's the Transfiguration event, it makes it very highly probable that Jesus actually talked to Moses and Elijah into the past. There's no way to prove it definitely, but I rather think that Jesus transcended the bounds of time in that moment and showed Himself to Moses and Elijah into their respective time points in history. I know, mindblowing! Furthermore, Jesus interacted with them both, but Moses and Elijah were not told to have communicated between themselves. Moses and Elijah are not said to even acknowledge that the disciples were there, it seems they only saw Jesus. It's also possible that Jesus talked to Moses and Elijah that were resting in Heaven, but my argument is - what would be the purpose of showing that to the disciples and letting us know about it? It seems to me like a no-brainer that Jesus would be able to do that. However, transcending time would really drive the point that Jesus was and is the Word of God and was God, from the beginning.
What are you going on about, the transfiguration was simply a vision. Like a dream, it is not real. Matt. 17:9 "And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead." 2rolleyes.gif
 

SoulWeaver

Senior Member
Oct 25, 2014
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#19
@Deade Well, you cannot prove that. Half of translations render it "tell no one what you have seen".
It's fine to disagree, but really unnecessary to say belittling things like "what are you going on about". I just exposed it as a possibility of what happened there that was amazing and cool if it happened so I shared it for that reason.
 

RevelationsMc

Active member
Aug 23, 2019
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#20
To live is Christ. And to die is gain. Case closed. After death we gain eternal life. And we become fully alive in the spirit. Amen