Hardshell & Primitive Baptist "Conditional Time Salvation" Warning

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
26,074
13,778
113
Yes, 'hardshell' Baptists and primitive Baptists are highly Calvinist.
Here are some of their core beliefs:
1. Baptism is the means of induction into the church. (Not biblical)
2. His [Christ's] sacrificial death paid the full sin debt of his elect. (Not biblical)
3. They hold that Jesus died to save only his elect, a specific number of people who can never be lost. (Not biblical)

Other than this, they are Bible-believing Christians attempting to follow only the New Testament pattern. So they are definitely not cultic. Using the term "hardshell" is uncalled for, since there are many Calvinistic or Reformed Baptists (e.g. Charles Haddon Spurgeon) who also believe in limited atonement and salvation only for the so-called :elect"..
 

wattie

Senior Member
Feb 24, 2009
3,258
1,147
113
New Zealand
Here are some of their core beliefs:
1. Baptism is the means of induction into the church. (Not biblical)
2. His [Christ's] sacrificial death paid the full sin debt of his elect. (Not biblical)
3. They hold that Jesus died to save only his elect, a specific number of people who can never be lost. (Not biblical)

Other than this, they are Bible-believing Christians attempting to follow only the New Testament pattern. So they are definitely not cultic. Using the term "hardshell" is uncalled for, since there are many Calvinistic or Reformed Baptists (e.g. Charles Haddon Spurgeon) who also believe in limited atonement and salvation only for the so-called :elect"..
Weeeeell.. if 1 Corinthians 12 is about the local church then you have baptism as a pre requisite to join a NT church. Paul called the church at Corinth THE body of Christ .

Arthur Pink wrote about this in his article Churches of God. He was calvinistic also. Dont know if he stayed calvinistic

But baptism to join the local church I believe to be biblical. Not baptism for salvation though.

It gets even more interesting since church of Christ churches also sometimes have the body of Christ to be a local body. But they DO attach baptism to salvation.

I heard many of these coc churches were Baptists who decided to split off.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
26,074
13,778
113
Weeeeell.. if 1 Corinthians 12 is about the local church then you have baptism as a pre requisite to join a NT church. Paul called the church at Corinth THE body of Christ .
There is nothing in that chapter about Christian baptism(by immersion) or being inducted into the Church. What is mention is that the Holy Spirit metaphorically and spiritually "baptizes" (immerses) believers into the Body of Christ. Yes, Paul does assume that everyone in the Corinthian church was a genuine Christian, but later on we see that heretics and apostates were also claiming to be Christians. However, unless a person has been born again, they cannot be regarded as being in the Body of Christ. And only God knows the difference.
 

Pilgrimshope

Well-known member
Sep 2, 2020
14,639
5,899
113
There is nothing in that chapter about Christian baptism(by immersion) or being inducted into the Church. What is mention is that the Holy Spirit metaphorically and spiritually "baptizes" (immerses) believers into the Body of Christ. Yes, Paul does assume that everyone in the Corinthian church was a genuine Christian, but later on we see that heretics and apostates were also claiming to be Christians. However, unless a person has been born again, they cannot be regarded as being in the Body of Christ. And only God knows the difference.
“What is mention is that the Holy Spirit metaphorically and spiritually "baptizes" (immerses) believers into the Body of Christ”

where is that mentioned ?

dorsnt it say Jesus would baptize bekievers with the holy ghost ? Not that the Holy Ghost baptized anyone but Christ baptized believers with his spirit at pentocost

those who received the spirit at pentocost kept practicing baptism for remission of sins in water

“Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus. And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized? And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭8:35-38‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Another thing jesus commanded his disciples to go baptize people of all nations in his name for remission of sins

It never says anywhere that the holy spirit would baptize anyone it says thhe lord Jesus wouod baotize with his spirit and he did and does this doesn’t replace baptism for remission of sins in his name they kept practicing it after they received the spirit

“Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭2:38-39‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“versus don’t get baptized or repent and the holy spirit will baptize you “

baptism is for repentance and remission of sins in Christs death receiving the Holy Spirit is a gift from Christ to believers it doesn’t remit sin baptism does that

“John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭1:4‬ ‭KJV‬‬


Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins,( same thing same purpose now Jesus name is known )

and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.( and now we can receive his spirit because he’s in heaven and has shed it forth )

“This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭2:32-33‬ ‭KJV‬‬


Even if someone receives the holy spirit which is a gift that only comes from Jesus himself to believers , it doesn’t usurp baptism for remission of sins in his name it’s a different matter one is remission of sins in Christs death the other is new birth in his resurrection

one process joining with his death and resurrection remitting sins and giving life

“While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word. And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost. For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter, Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we? And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭10:44-48‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Peter commands even gentiles who have already received the holy ghost his first command to then is baptism in water in Jesus name baptism will always be the same same thing Jesus did and all his disciples
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
26,074
13,778
113
“What is mention is that the Holy Spirit metaphorically and spiritually "baptizes" (immerses) believers into the Body of Christ”. where is that mentioned ?
Right here (1 Cor 12:13): For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ. For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. For the body is not one member, but many.

1. Christ baptizes WITH the Holy Spirit.

2. Then the Holy Spirit baptizes believers INTO the Body of Christ.

3. The Body of Christ is throughout the world -- every child of God is in that Body.

Water baptism by immersion is NOT for the remission of sins. Repentance is for the remission of sins. Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord (Acts 3:19)

So kindly do not promote false doctrine.
 

Pilgrimshope

Well-known member
Sep 2, 2020
14,639
5,899
113
Right here (1 Cor 12:13): For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ. For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. For the body is not one member, but many.

1. Christ baptizes WITH the Holy Spirit.

2. Then the Holy Spirit baptizes believers INTO the Body of Christ.

3. The Body of Christ is throughout the world -- every child of God is in that Body/
Naw that doesnt say the holy spirit baptizes anyone…

“For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. For the body is not one member, but many.”

John the Baptizer

“But the angel said unto him, Fear not, Zacharias: for thy prayer is heard; and thy wife Elisabeth shall bear thee a son, and thou shalt call his name John. For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭1:13, 15‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Peter after he received the holy ghost

“Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins,

and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭2:38-39‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Philip after he received the Holy Ghost

“Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus.

And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?

And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.

And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭8:35-39‬ ‭KJV‬‬

why I’m the world are these men sent by God baptizing people for remission of sins in Jesus name in water ? Why does no one ever teach “ the holt spirit will baptize people “ that’s not at all what your wuote is saying that whole section is about unity within the body oneness not about the process of baptism

The Holy Spirit works in the world through man God sent John filled with the Holy Spirit to establish this doctrine

“John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭1:4‬ ‭KJV‬‬

the apostles were commanded to baotize all nations in his name they weren’t told the Holy Spirit will baptize people in my name they were commanded this

“And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭28:18-20‬ ‭KJV‬‬

That’s a commandment to the apostles that they were to go out and baptize in his name that’s why they did that

“Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins,( baptism is for repentance and remission of sins in his name )

(this is what changes after Jesus ascended ) and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭2:38‬ ‭

baptism is a basic doctrine it is clearly written down it is for repentance and remission of sins for those who believe in Jesus you see at pentocost after pentocost you see also with gentiles

“While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.


And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost. ( baptism of the Holy Ghost ) For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God.

Then answered Peter, Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, ( remission of sins in his name ) which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we? And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭10:44-48‬ ‭KJV‬‬


baptism is what it’s always been before Jesus died and rose after we know his name and what he’s done that’s why we get baptized because he died for our sins and we believe it

“Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death:

that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭6:3-4‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“in whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.”
‭‭Colossians‬ ‭2:11-12‬ ‭KJV‬‬

that’s why we get buried in the water and raised back up by the servant of God baptizing us ots union with Christs death burial and resurrection true baotizer a would obviously be filled with the Holy Ghost like John was Peter was Philip was Paul was ect
 

Pilgrimshope

Well-known member
Sep 2, 2020
14,639
5,899
113
That is hilarious. You need new pair of glasses.
Lol or maybe I should just read scripture that’s actaually talking about baptisms purpose and receiving the holy spirit

“Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins,

and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭2:38-39‬ ‭KJV‬‬

This confuses people

“I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭3:11‬ ‭

because they don’t read this

“and, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me. For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.

But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judæa, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭1:4-5, 8‬ ‭

“he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:”…ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.

“And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them. And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judæa, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words: But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: And your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, And your young men shall see visions, And your old men shall dream dreams:”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭2:3-4, 14, 16-17‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.

Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ. Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins,

and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭2:32-33, 36-39‬ ‭KJV‬‬

basic stuff the holy spirit is never said to be going to baptize anyone Jesus commanded his disciples to go baptize people in his name for remission of sins like Peter began doing , like the several examples I’ve shown you.

your quote isn’t about the doctrine of baptism it’s about unity in the body of Christ. It’s not saying holy spirit is going to magically replace baptism for remission of sins in Jesus name John was already filled with the Holy Ghost when god sent him to baptize fore remission of sins …….Jesus would give the spirit after he died and rose is all it meant he would pour out his spirit on all believers

But honestly your free to believe anything you believe about baptism lol I see good still however I just read the scriptures that are talking about baptism and what it means and what it is and when I see it was done in water I have absolutely no issue with it

“Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus. And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?

And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him. And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭8:35-

“While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word. And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost. For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter, Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we? And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭10:44-48‬ ‭

i dont seem to have any issue honestly we receive the spirit because we believe the gospel and when we hear the gospel we are going to hear about baptism in Jesus name for remission of our sins

The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God; As it is written in the prophets, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, Which shall prepare thy way before thee. John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins. And there went out unto him all the land of Judæa, and they of Jerusalem, and were all baptized of him in the river of Jordan, confessing their sins.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭1:1-2, 4-5‬ ‭

“and said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day: and that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. And ye are witnesses of these things.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭24:46-48‬ ‭

“Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins,

and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭2:38‬ ‭KJV‬‬

baptism is basic stuff Jesus and all his followers were baptized the same way in water and all who believe the gospel receive the promise of the same spirit ….

Look into John the baptizer a bit more and who sent him to baptize and whether he was operating by the holy ghost or not

then look at Jesus baptism and what Peter said in acts 238 thats baptism it’s basic doctrine meant to be heard about and believed then of bc it’s acted upon basics though