Has the law been put aside? If so, when?

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GraceAndTruth

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Sep 28, 2015
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Lillywolf, sometimes our own willful disobedience brings its own "punishment" Cause and effect
 
U

UnderGrace

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Are they in any regard as prevalent here as that sect that accuses Christians of being Judaizers? Those who are ignorant and ignorant of that scripture that tells the Christian, those who are in Christ are descendants of Abraham and are heirs to the promise.


I would wonder if you warn people who contend against Jesus teachings and interject their own as strongly as you defend someone like Sketch. For instance, that which would claim neither Paul nor Jesus are correct in matters pertaining to the law as they wrote of it.
I really have not read anything that Sketch wrote that teaches lawlessness. :unsure:

I actually disagree with Sketch on most everything...LOL
 

GraceAndTruth

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Never confuse Law and Grace, the old testament is about Law keeping, the New Testament is about GRACE gifted.
Hebrews tells us that the new covenant (testament) was begun at the death of the one who made it (Jesus Christ) The entire ministry of Christ was under the Law, before the Cross. So the division of Law and Grace is at the Cross
 
Dec 28, 2016
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They don’t preach lawlessness, but that they are no longer under the law but grace. We are under grace, but the law is still there, as none are allowed to commit adultery, idolatry, cheat, steal, kill, etc.
They're conflating how we are justified with sanctification and the obedience of faith. Therefore they dismiss living lawfully as "works salvation," and dismiss the law altogether.

They're not thinking past justification though they'll say they are. If they are, then why are they dismissing the law altogether? Because they think it has nothing to do with salvation! (and it doesn't as far as our eternally being justified by faith.) But this proves my point of their conflation, and I've seen their argument over and again.

Then there is this: the law does have something to do with our salvation in the "being saved" piece, which is why the law is written on our hearts, and why God causes us to walk in his ways; Ezekiel 36:27; Philippians 2:13ff. It doesn't save us but shows we are being saved, i.e. evidence of grace and conversion via sanctification.
 

gb9

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Jan 18, 2011
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Really? The 613 laws were divided into three parts. The sacrificial laws do not apply because the perfect lamb sacrifice for all sins of the world has shed his blood.
And you are wrong, or a warning, if you think we cannot keep the ten commands.
Are you a liar?
Are you a thief?
Do you have idols in your home? And worship them?
Are you a murderer?
Are you a Polytheist?
Do you renounce the Sabbath day God made for you so as not to keep it holy?
Do you dishonor your mother and father?
Do you take the Lord's name in vein?
Do you covet?"I love my neighbors new Veyron. I want it!"
Get where I'm going with that?

Not all has been fulfilled! Heaven and Earth have not passed away.

Galatians 3:29 And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's offspring, heirs according to promise.


"Behold, days are coming," declares the Lord, "when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah, not like the covenant which I made with their fathers in the day I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, although I was a husband to them," declares the Lord. "But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days," declares the Lord, "I will put My law within them and on their heart I will write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. "They will not teach again, each man his neighbor and each man his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord,' for they will all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them," declares the Lord, "for I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more." (Jeremiah 31:31-34 NASB)
no, they were not. greek word for law- nomos- definition- the Mosaic Law, the books that contain the Pentateuch .

there is not multiple words for Torah. one word, one Law.
 

gb9

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Jan 18, 2011
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Never confuse Law and Grace, the old testament is about Law keeping, the New Testament is about GRACE gifted.
Hebrews tells us that the new covenant (testament) was begun at the death of the one who made it (Jesus Christ) The entire ministry of Christ was under the Law, before the Cross. So the division of Law and Grace is at the Cross
these judeaizers do not recognize the Old and New Covenants . they think there is a renewed Covenant.
 

ljs

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Jan 13, 2018
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g,od isnt
Old and new correct
Never confuse Law and Grace, the old testament is about Law keeping, the New Testament is about GRACE gifted.
Hebrews tells us that the new covenant (testament) was begun at the death of the one who made it (Jesus Christ) The entire ministry of Christ was under the Law, before the Cross. So the division of Law and Grace is at the Cross
Amen !!!!!
 
Oct 25, 2018
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They're conflating how we are justified with sanctification and the obedience of faith. Therefore they dismiss living lawfully as "works salvation," and dismiss the law altogether.

They're not thinking past justification though they'll say they are. If they are, then why are they dismissing the law altogether? Because they think it has nothing to do with salvation! (and it doesn't as far as our eternally being justified by faith.) But this proves my point of their conflation, and I've seen their argument over and again.

Then there is this: the law does have something to do with our salvation in the "being saved" piece, which is why the law is written on our hearts, and why God causes us to walk in his ways; Ezekiel 36:27; Philippians 2:13ff. It doesn't save us but shows we are being saved, i.e. evidence of grace and conversion via sanctification.
All the Law can do is condemn and bring the lost to Jesus.


21-22 If such is the case, is the law, then, an anti-promise, a negation of God’s will for us? Not at all. Its purpose was to make obvious to everyone that we are, in ourselves, out of right relationship with God, and therefore to show us the futility of devising some religious system for getting by our own efforts what we can only get by waiting in faith for God to complete his promise. For if any kind of rule-keeping had power to create life in us, we would certainly have gotten it by this time.

23-24 Until the time when we were mature enough to respond freely in faith to the living God, we were carefully surrounded and protected by the Mosaic law. The law was like those Greek tutors, with which you are familiar, who escort children to school and protect them from danger or distraction, making sure the children will really get to the place they set out for.

25-27 But now you have arrived at your destination: By faith in Christ you are in direct relationship with God. Your baptism in Christ was not just washing you up for a fresh start. It also involved dressing you in an adult faith wardrobe—Christ’s life, the fulfillment of God’s original promise.(Galatians 3)
 

Lillywolf

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Aug 29, 2018
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Never confuse Law and Grace, the old testament is about Law keeping, the New Testament is about GRACE gifted.
Hebrews tells us that the new covenant (testament) was begun at the death of the one who made it (Jesus Christ) The entire ministry of Christ was under the Law, before the Cross. So the division of Law and Grace is at the Cross
Jesus didn't say the law was done away with.
Matthew 22:36 “Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?” 37 And he said to him, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. 38 This is the great and first commandment. 39 And a second is like it:You shall love your neighbor as yourself. 40 On these two commandments depend all the Law and the Prophets.”





Did Paul say the law was done away with? Acts 24:14 (NKJV) "But this I confess to you, that according to the Way which they call a sect, so I worship the Elohim of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the Law and in the Prophets.
Life in the Spirit
Romans 8:8
There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.[a] 2 For the law of (A)the Spirit of life (B)has set you[b] free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death. 3 For (C)God has done what the law, (D)weakened by the flesh, (E)could not do. (F)By sending his own Son (G)in the likeness of sinful flesh and (H)for sin,[c] he condemned sin in the flesh,4 in order that (I)the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, (J)who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.5 For (K)those who live according to the flesh set their minds on (L)the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on (M)the things of the Spirit. 6 For to set (N)the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace. 7 For the mind that is set on the flesh is (O)hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; (P)indeed, it cannot. 8 Those who are in the flesh cannot please God.


Romans 6:15 - What then? Shall we sin because we are not under Law but under grace? Certainly not! 16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one's slaves whom you obey, whether of sin [leading] to death, or of obedience [leading] to righteousness?

(Paul scripture source: (*Be ready to be accused of being a Judaizer if you concede those scriptures are valid being they are sourced at a link that implies itself protorah. Such accusers are hostile to Judaism and are to be ignored if you respect the Jewish carpenter that saved your life. )
Paul never said the Law was abolished. Read for yourself.

The following is a collection of clear scriptures showing that Paul never taught that we are free to disobey the Law (Hebrew: Torah).
I only ask that everyone read all of this study (please do not skim thru) before coming to a conclusion.
 

gb9

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Jesus didn't say the law was done away with.
Matthew 22:36 “Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?” 37 And he said to him, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. 38 This is the great and first commandment. 39 And a second is like it:You shall love your neighbor as yourself. 40 On these two commandments depend all the Law and the Prophets.”





Did Paul say the law was done away with? Acts 24:14 (NKJV) "But this I confess to you, that according to the Way which they call a sect, so I worship the Elohim of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the Law and in the Prophets.
Life in the Spirit
Romans 8:8
There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.[a] 2 For the law of (A)the Spirit of life (B)has set you[b] free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death. 3 For (C)God has done what the law, (D)weakened by the flesh, (E)could not do. (F)By sending his own Son (G)in the likeness of sinful flesh and (H)for sin,[c] he condemned sin in the flesh,4 in order that (I)the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, (J)who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.5 For (K)those who live according to the flesh set their minds on (L)the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on (M)the things of the Spirit. 6 For to set (N)the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace. 7 For the mind that is set on the flesh is (O)hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; (P)indeed, it cannot. 8 Those who are in the flesh cannot please God.


Romans 6:15 - What then? Shall we sin because we are not under Law but under grace? Certainly not! 16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one's slaves whom you obey, whether of sin [leading] to death, or of obedience [leading] to righteousness?

(Paul scripture source: (*Be ready to be accused of being a Judaizer if you concede those scriptures are valid being they are sourced at a link that implies itself protorah. Such accusers are hostile to Judaism and are to be ignored if you respect the Jewish carpenter that saved your life. )
Paul never said the Law was abolished. Read for yourself.

The following is a collection of clear scriptures showing that Paul never taught that we are free to disobey the Law (Hebrew: Torah).
I only ask that everyone read all of this study (please do not skim thru) before coming to a conclusion.
read if you want, but it is just judeaizer propaganda to try to confuse Christians.
 

Lillywolf

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Lillywolf, sometimes our own willful disobedience brings its own "punishment" Cause and effect
Very true. And yet, we are forgiven and our trespasses are under the blood. We learn from our mistakes. Our mistakes no longer condemn us. We are saints in the eyes of God. Not sinners. Amen.
 

Lillywolf

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Aug 29, 2018
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Never confuse Law and Grace, the old testament is about Law keeping, the New Testament is about GRACE gifted.
Hebrews tells us that the new covenant (testament) was begun at the death of the one who made it (Jesus Christ) The entire ministry of Christ was under the Law, before the Cross. So the division of Law and Grace is at the Cross
Jesus said, If we love Him, then keep His Commandments. (John 14:15)
Not Under Law but Under Grace Meaning

(shared with permission)

You often hear the argument that we are not under law but under grace but what does it mean to be under grace and does this mean we no longer have to obey the Ten Commandment law?
First let's define what sin is according to the Bible. 1 John 3:4 “Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.” Therefore, if there is no Law then there can be no sin, and for even further clarity Romans 4:15 says, “Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.
And what about God's grace. What is this exactly? Put simply, it is His unmerited and undeserved favour that we receive as the result of our Saviour's redeeming sacrifice. Please allow me explain more fully.

Jesus said, If we love Him, then keep His Commandments. (John 14:15) So if we truly love our Lord and Saviour then it will be our heart's desire to obey Him. Thus when we unintentionally sin, repentance (to be sorrowful) will be an automatic response for breaking His law. After repentance comes confessing our sin and asking for forgiveness. 1 John 1:9 “If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.” This is where faith comes in. We believe by faith that the sacrifice of Christ cleanses us from all sin. Then comes the free gift from God. Ephesians 2:8-9 “For by grace are you saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.” As a result of our repentance and faith, we receive God's Grace which is His unmerited and undeserved favour that we receive due to Christ interceding on our behalf as a result of His sacrifice. (1 Timothy 2:5) This also shows that if there was no law, there would be no need for God's Grace.

If there is Grace then there is His law to be obeyed. There is however no sacrifice that will cover wilful and un-repented sin. (Hebrews 10:26-29) This is not to say that if one comes to genuine repentance later in time that he will not be forgiven as this is not so. Christ will always forgive those who come to true repentance.
Consider the following. Can a murderer sentenced to death work for his freedom? No, because he is under the law and the law demands death. The only way he can be set free is if the Governor gives him a pardon. So waiting for the execution this man would truly be under the law in every sense of the word; under the guilt, under the condemnation and under the sentence of death. Just before the execution date the governor reviews the condemned man's case and decides to pardon him. In the light of extenuating circumstances the governor exercises his prerogative and sends a full pardon to the prisoner. Now the prisoner is no longer under the law but under grace. That is, the law no longer condemns him. He is considered totally justified as far as the charges of the law are concerned and he is free to walk out of the prison and no policeman can stop him. But now that he is under grace and not law, can we say that he is free to break the law? Of course not! In fact he would now be doubly obligated to obey the law because he has found Grace from the governor. In gratitude and love he will be very careful to honour and obey the law of that state which granted him grace.

Now what did Paul say about sin and grace? Romans 6:1-2 “What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? 2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?” And for further clarity using the main passage to avoid loving obedience to God. Romans 6:14-15 “For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace. 15 What then shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

The Bible does say that we are not under the law, but does that imply that we are free from the obligation to obey it? How easily we could prevent confusion if we just accepted exactly what the Bible says. After stating that we are not under the law but under grace, Paul gives his own explanation in verse 15. He says, “What then?” This simply means, “How are we to understand this?” Then notice his answer. In anticipation that some would misconstrue his words to mean that you can break the law because you are under grace, he says, “Shall we sin (break the Ten Commandments law) because we are not under the law but under grace? God forbid.” In the strongest possible language, Paul states that being under grace does not give a license to break the Ten Commandments. Yet this is exactly what so many believe today despite Paul's specific warning.
And what about those who lived in Old Testament times? Does the Old Testament encompass a dispensation of works and the New Testament a dispensation of grace? Under this garbled plan, people would be saved by works in the Old Testament and by grace in the New Testament but this is not true. The Bible holds forth only one perfect plan for everyone to be saved, and that is by grace through faith.
While Paul states the obvious in that the old sacrificial law (Mosaic Law) was bondage, Heaven will not be divided into two parts. Those who got there by works and those who got there by faith. Every single redeemed soul will be a sinner saved by grace. Those who entered into salvation in the Old Testament were those who trusted in the blood of Jesus Christ by demonstrating their faith by bringing a lamb and slaying it. Hebrews 10:4 “For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.” The sacrificial system with its holy feast days, new moon festivals and yearly Sabbath days such as Passover described in Colossians 2:14-16 pointed forward to the work of Jesus on the cross. They looked forward in faith to the atoning death of Jesus. We on the other hand look back in faith to the same death and are saved in exactly the same way. So we can be sure that the entire redeemed host throughout eternity will be singing the same song of deliverance.

Those who seem to have no desire for loving obedience to God typically quote Romans 6:14 alone and never verse 15 which informs us that being under grace is not a license to continue in sin. You will also be unlikely to hear the two verses previous to it, which say, Romans 6:12-13 “Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in the lusts thereof. 13 Neither yield you your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.

And how about the verse after verse 15 which states that grace is not a license to continue in sin. Romans 6:16 “Know you not, that to whom you yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants you are to whom you obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

So what does one choose? To continue in sin unto death? Or to obey the law, that is, obedience unto righteousness? An easy choice for those who truly love God and desire to spend eternity with Him and have access to the tree of life. Revelation 22:14 “Blessed are they that do his Commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
Paul's words are clear and simple in that being under Grace does not mean we can continue to sin which is transgression of the law. The page on saved by faith alone reveals that we still uphold the law and reading were the Ten Commandments abolished shows that Jesus said he did not come to do destroy the law and that we are not only to obey it but to teach it also. So scripture remains consistent and without contradiction.
 

Lillywolf

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It’s on here. Sketch is a proponent of antinomianism. The churches I went to who advocate it, I will not air it on a public forum.
So too is gb9 and others here if one were to take the time to review their points concerning this thread. Some will even accuse those who follow the scriptures of being a Judaizer in order to avoid notice.


For reference:
Antinomianism(an tih noh' mih an ihssm)

The false teaching that since faith alone is necessary for salvation, one is free from the moral obligations of the law. The word antinomianism is not used in the Bible, but the idea is spoken of. Paul appears to have been accused of being an antinomian (see Romans 3:8 ; Romans 6:1 ,Romans 6:1,6:15 ). While it is true that obedience to the law will never earn salvation for anyone (Ephesians 2:8-9 ), it is equally true that those who are saved are expected to live a life full of good works (see, for example, Matthew 7:16-20 ; Ephesians 2:10 ; Colossians 1:10 ; James 2:14-26 ). Since we have been freed from the dominion of sin through faith in Jesus, we have also been freed to practice the righteousness demanded by God (Romans 6:12-22 ).
 

Lillywolf

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When Jesus said he did not come to abolish the law but to fulfill it, and that not one jot nor tittle of the law shall pass away until all is fulfilled, who argues in his name that that is not true?

Also, no, not all has been fulfilled! LINK



John 14:23 Judas (not Iscariot) asked Him, “Lord, why are You going to reveal Yourself to us and not to the world?” 23Jesus replied, “If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word. My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make Our home with him.24 Whoever does not love Me does not keep My words. The word that you hear is not My own, but it is from the Father who sent Me.
 

gb9

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Jan 18, 2011
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When Jesus said he did not come to abolish the law but to fulfill it, and that not one jot nor tittle of the law shall pass away until all is fulfilled, who argues in his name that that is not true?

Also, no, not all has been fulfilled! LINK



John 14:23 Judas (not Iscariot) asked Him, “Lord, why are You going to reveal Yourself to us and not to the world?” 23Jesus replied, “If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word. My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make Our home with him.24 Whoever does not love Me does not keep My words. The word that you hear is not My own, but it is from the Father who sent Me.
yes. His words. not the Father's Words .

you see, all you judeaizers ignore this one critical piece of Scripture-

on the mount of transfiguration , God the Father came down , the prescense of Moses ( the law ) and Elijah ( the Prophets ) and said of Jesus " this is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. hear Him!"

this elevates and serperates the Words in Red above all other Scripture.
 
Oct 25, 2018
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yes. His words. not the Father's Words .

you see, all you judeaizers ignore this one critical piece of Scripture-

on the mount of transfiguration , God the Father came down , the prescense of Moses ( the law ) and Elijah ( the Prophets ) and said of Jesus " this is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. hear Him!"

this elevates and serperates the Words in Red above all other Scripture.
When Jesus speaks, He speaks the Father’s words. They are a triune Godhead, and are in complete agreement at all times.
 
Oct 25, 2018
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yes. His words. not the Father's Words .

you see, all you judeaizers ignore this one critical piece of Scripture-

on the mount of transfiguration , God the Father came down , the prescense of Moses ( the law ) and Elijah ( the Prophets ) and said of Jesus " this is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. hear Him!"

this elevates and serperates the Words in Red above all other Scripture.
Oh no! A red letter Christian.
 
Oct 25, 2018
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I would never teach people that...
I have been across this on other forums, but only once in person. All the Bible is as if Jesus spoke.

What about those bibles that don’t put Jesus’ words in red, my friend? Those who are red letter Christians would be in trouble with those red letter less bibles I guess?
 

gb9

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Jan 18, 2011
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well. please feel free to give another interpretation of the mount of transfiguration experience.