Yea but what they "believe" it is is irrelevant, for that matter what we believe it is, or is not, is in fact irrelevant, but what is of the upmost reliance is what it is in truth. That's really all I can say about that, do you not agree truth is what matters most right? Deception or counterfeits are not truth and therefore cannot be of God. People make this stuff so complicated, but it's clearly written in there, and when you don't approach the text with a preconceived idea, what it says strait forward and to the point is not a huge 2,000 year gap between salvation and the coming judgement on the covenant breakers, ending that age and ushering in His kingdom in power.
When you mess around with verses like Mathew 24 1-35 (sorry but you have to read the whole context for me to make the point I'm making)
1 Jesus left the temple and was going away, when his disciples came to point out to him the buildings of the temple. 2 But he answered them, “You see all these, do you not? Truly, I say to you, there will not be left here one stone upon another that will not be thrown down.”
Signs of the End of the Age
3 As he sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?” 4 And Jesus answered them, “See that no one leads you astray. 5 For many will come in my name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and they will lead many astray. 6 And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not alarmed, for this must take place, but the end is not yet. 7 For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom, and there will be famines and earthquakes in various places. 8 All these are but the beginning of the birth pains.
9“Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and put you to death, and you will be hated by all nations for my name’s sake. 10 And then many will fall away and betray one another and hate one another. 11 And many false prophets will arise and lead many astray. 12 And because lawlessness will be increased, the love of many will grow cold. 13 But the one who endures to the end will be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be proclaimed throughout the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.
The Abomination of Desolation
15“So when you see the abomination of desolation spoken of by the prophet Daniel, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand), 16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let the one who is on the housetop not go down to take what is in his house, 18 and let the one who is in the field not turn back to take his cloak. 19 And alas for women who are pregnant and for those who are nursing infants in those days! 20 Pray that your flight may not be in winter or on a Sabbath. 21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, and never will be. 22 And if those days had not been cut short, no human being would be saved. But for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short. 23 Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There he is!’ do not believe it. 24 For false christs and false prophets will arise and perform great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect. 25 See, I have told you beforehand. 26 So, if they say to you, ‘Look, he is in the wilderness,’ do not go out. If they say, ‘Look, he is in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it. 27 For as the lightning comes from the east and shines as far as the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 28 Wherever the corpse is, there the vultures will gather.
The Coming of the Son of Man
29“Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
The Lesson of the Fig Tree
32“From the fig tree learn its lesson: as soon as its branch becomes tender and puts out its leaves, you know that summer is near. 33 So also, when you see all these things, you know that he is near, at the very gates. 34 Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place. 35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will not pass away
So Jesus is speaking to these people, interacting with them, looking them in the eyes and listening, looking them in the eyes and telling them the truth. Then His disciples came up and asked Him when were these things going to happen and what was going to happen, what would the signs be and He listed quite a bit, then after He told them all these things that would come to pass then looked them right in their face and says "Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place. Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will not pass away."
They take this and say it means
Truly, I say to you, this generation (the generation that sees these things) will not pass away until all these things take place.
But that's not what it says, and there's no way of saying this is not adding to the word of God. I know most may think explaining this one verse away refutes what I'm saying, and this is the only scripture that gives this kind of time line Mat 16:28, Mat 23:36, Mat 10:36
Even down to little things like on the way to the cross when He tells the women not to weep for Him, to weep for their children because He knew what was coming for them.
Not only all this, but in history within that generation ALL those things did come to pass, just like it says before you add to it.
These things all fit so well it was truly baffling me why it was met with such fierce resistance, but then I saw that it's not really the truth, facts, or the case that was being challenged, it was the group, lifelong traditions coming into conflict with the truth that was causing the outrage. This thread here could be a case study on this because I've had conversations where I try so hard to pepper my comments with "I understand why you'd think this way", "I'm not trying to just be mean or teach", "I know I'm a bit direct and to the point", "I want to hear your side too" type things yet be told that I'm attacking them, or be called a "mouthy heretical joke" by a guy that jumped into the conversation by insulting everyone and anyone that holds this view, before even asking a question, you know just like Jesus commands, then after I agreed with what he said about me, pointed out that him pointing to how I am has nothing to do with how he behaves, then told him that I like him still and would honestly like to discuss this, he calls me a joke and leaves me hanging. I mean wow, I get told that the things I'm saying are stupid, heretical (in what way, this is not the church of Rome nor a salvation issue) that it doesn't fit in any way, that they've been studying this for 30 years, yet with logic and a simple and straight forward reading of His word, I have demonstrated how I see it fitting His word, and fitting it so much better in so may unforeseen ways.
I obviously believe this subject is very important, honestly it's the difference in my experience from waiting for the world to go to hell in a hand basket, to declaring to everyone I speak with, everyone I sing past in the park, that Jesus Christ is King right now and is calling all nations to Himself and is seated at the right hand now with ALL authority in heaven and on earth. It's powerful and has the ring of truth to me, otherwise I wouldn't say a thing about it, I don't like being the guy with the unpopular view that even mentioning it causes your own brothers and sisters to trow hate at you for it. I guess that the deal though, I don't just get to do the things that are fun and easy. I want to learn more always, I just don't understand the outrage without any discussion at all, not to hear out why I believe what I believe, but they wont even discuss with me what they believe. That's just what I've seen here, very easy to go back and read for yourself to see where I'm lying or if I'm accurate, I hate the shadows and love the light, and am not hiding from anything I've done here right or wrong and I'll own up to any of it and to those I've angered and upset I hope they can forgive me.
When you mess around with verses like Mathew 24 1-35 (sorry but you have to read the whole context for me to make the point I'm making)
1 Jesus left the temple and was going away, when his disciples came to point out to him the buildings of the temple. 2 But he answered them, “You see all these, do you not? Truly, I say to you, there will not be left here one stone upon another that will not be thrown down.”
Signs of the End of the Age
3 As he sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?” 4 And Jesus answered them, “See that no one leads you astray. 5 For many will come in my name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and they will lead many astray. 6 And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not alarmed, for this must take place, but the end is not yet. 7 For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom, and there will be famines and earthquakes in various places. 8 All these are but the beginning of the birth pains.
9“Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and put you to death, and you will be hated by all nations for my name’s sake. 10 And then many will fall away and betray one another and hate one another. 11 And many false prophets will arise and lead many astray. 12 And because lawlessness will be increased, the love of many will grow cold. 13 But the one who endures to the end will be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be proclaimed throughout the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.
The Abomination of Desolation
15“So when you see the abomination of desolation spoken of by the prophet Daniel, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand), 16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let the one who is on the housetop not go down to take what is in his house, 18 and let the one who is in the field not turn back to take his cloak. 19 And alas for women who are pregnant and for those who are nursing infants in those days! 20 Pray that your flight may not be in winter or on a Sabbath. 21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, and never will be. 22 And if those days had not been cut short, no human being would be saved. But for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short. 23 Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There he is!’ do not believe it. 24 For false christs and false prophets will arise and perform great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect. 25 See, I have told you beforehand. 26 So, if they say to you, ‘Look, he is in the wilderness,’ do not go out. If they say, ‘Look, he is in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it. 27 For as the lightning comes from the east and shines as far as the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 28 Wherever the corpse is, there the vultures will gather.
The Coming of the Son of Man
29“Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
The Lesson of the Fig Tree
32“From the fig tree learn its lesson: as soon as its branch becomes tender and puts out its leaves, you know that summer is near. 33 So also, when you see all these things, you know that he is near, at the very gates. 34 Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place. 35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will not pass away
So Jesus is speaking to these people, interacting with them, looking them in the eyes and listening, looking them in the eyes and telling them the truth. Then His disciples came up and asked Him when were these things going to happen and what was going to happen, what would the signs be and He listed quite a bit, then after He told them all these things that would come to pass then looked them right in their face and says "Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place. Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will not pass away."
They take this and say it means
Truly, I say to you, this generation (the generation that sees these things) will not pass away until all these things take place.
But that's not what it says, and there's no way of saying this is not adding to the word of God. I know most may think explaining this one verse away refutes what I'm saying, and this is the only scripture that gives this kind of time line Mat 16:28, Mat 23:36, Mat 10:36
Even down to little things like on the way to the cross when He tells the women not to weep for Him, to weep for their children because He knew what was coming for them.
Not only all this, but in history within that generation ALL those things did come to pass, just like it says before you add to it.
These things all fit so well it was truly baffling me why it was met with such fierce resistance, but then I saw that it's not really the truth, facts, or the case that was being challenged, it was the group, lifelong traditions coming into conflict with the truth that was causing the outrage. This thread here could be a case study on this because I've had conversations where I try so hard to pepper my comments with "I understand why you'd think this way", "I'm not trying to just be mean or teach", "I know I'm a bit direct and to the point", "I want to hear your side too" type things yet be told that I'm attacking them, or be called a "mouthy heretical joke" by a guy that jumped into the conversation by insulting everyone and anyone that holds this view, before even asking a question, you know just like Jesus commands, then after I agreed with what he said about me, pointed out that him pointing to how I am has nothing to do with how he behaves, then told him that I like him still and would honestly like to discuss this, he calls me a joke and leaves me hanging. I mean wow, I get told that the things I'm saying are stupid, heretical (in what way, this is not the church of Rome nor a salvation issue) that it doesn't fit in any way, that they've been studying this for 30 years, yet with logic and a simple and straight forward reading of His word, I have demonstrated how I see it fitting His word, and fitting it so much better in so may unforeseen ways.
I obviously believe this subject is very important, honestly it's the difference in my experience from waiting for the world to go to hell in a hand basket, to declaring to everyone I speak with, everyone I sing past in the park, that Jesus Christ is King right now and is calling all nations to Himself and is seated at the right hand now with ALL authority in heaven and on earth. It's powerful and has the ring of truth to me, otherwise I wouldn't say a thing about it, I don't like being the guy with the unpopular view that even mentioning it causes your own brothers and sisters to trow hate at you for it. I guess that the deal though, I don't just get to do the things that are fun and easy. I want to learn more always, I just don't understand the outrage without any discussion at all, not to hear out why I believe what I believe, but they wont even discuss with me what they believe. That's just what I've seen here, very easy to go back and read for yourself to see where I'm lying or if I'm accurate, I hate the shadows and love the light, and am not hiding from anything I've done here right or wrong and I'll own up to any of it and to those I've angered and upset I hope they can forgive me.
