Have you believed the false grace message?

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wsblind

Guest
#701
#701
Stunnedbygrace said:
Hahaa, sorry. you lost me a little bit with this one...;)
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Yes , I believe it can and will be denied at times. It is a reward.

Why, when and how? I have no clue. And without a sin nature and seeing clearly, we will totally agree with the consequences the rewards that we lost.

Divine regret? We are going to know the rewards that we missed out on, we will have some sense of regret, but with no sin attached to this knowing what we missed out on.
 
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Stunnedbygrace

Senior Member
#702
Nov 12, 2015
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#702
eternally-gratefull said:
Are you saying you do not deserve eternal death as you stand right now??

and again, did the ones who increased earn eternal life because they increased?
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No. I am not saying I don't deserve eternal death as I stand right now.
What I was saying is that you can't apply that parable to yourself and say it is not about the eternal state of anyone and then apply that parable to someone else and say it is a parable about eternal state.

as for your last question, if, as you said, the one who did not increase earned as a reward eternal death, then you would have to assume the ones who did increase received the opposite, wouldn't you??
 
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Stunnedbygrace

Senior Member
#703
Nov 12, 2015
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#703
wsblind said:
Yes , I believe it can and will be denied at times. It is a reward.

Why, when and how? I have no clue. And without a sin nature and seeing clearly, we will totally agree with the consequences the rewards that we lost.

Divine regret? We are going to know the rewards that we missed out on, we will have some sense of regret, but with no sin attached to this knowing what we missed out on.
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Okay, I can work with this. :)
So, access to the tree of life is a reward?
In heaven, some will be denied access to this tree of life. They might not be, but Sometimes this tree of life may be denied to them and other times it may be granted that they can access it.

So then, what is this tree of life? What's it for? What does it do? What happens when I am not permitted access to it and what happens on the days when I am permitted access to it?

And...one more question - since access to this tree of life is a reward, what can you tell me about exactly what I have to do to get this reward?
 
S

Stunnedbygrace

Senior Member
#704
Nov 12, 2015
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#704
Stunnedbygrace said:
Okay, I can work with this. :)
So, access to the tree of life is a reward?
In heaven, some will be denied access to this tree of life. They might not be, but Sometimes this tree of life may be denied to them and other times it may be granted that they can access it.

So then, what is this tree of life? What's it for? What does it do? What happens when I am not permitted access to it and what happens on the days when I am permitted access to it?

And...one more question - since access to this tree of life is a reward, what can you tell me about exactly what I have to do to get this reward?
Click to expand...

We have some things on earth that work a little like this...like Netflix sort of.
This membership gives you access to A.
This one gives you access to A and B, but not C.
This one gives you access to all three...
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#705
#705
Stunnedbygrace said:
Then what was this faithlessness you fell into? Define it for me.
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do you trust God with every area of your life?


Faith is a broad term..

There is faith in God for salvation,

then their is faith in God for living this life..

I became faithless in the second part because of what happened.. I got angry,, and in the flesh, left..

 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#707
#707
Stunnedbygrace said:
as for your last question, if, as you said, the one who did not increase earned as a reward eternal death, then you would have to assume the ones who did increase received the opposite, wouldn't you??
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No, Because we all deserve eternal death, He did not increase because he Never had faith.. This he stood on his own, because he rejected the cross.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#708
#708
Stunnedbygrace said:
We have some things on earth that work a little like this...like Netflix sort of.
This membership gives you access to A.
This one gives you access to A and B, but not C.
This one gives you access to all three...
Click to expand...
in spiritual matters,

there are two things.

one gives you access to all

one gives you access to none.

what you do wiht that access (if you have it) is up to you, and you will be rewarded or suffer based on what you do..

 
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Stunnedbygrace

Senior Member
#709
Nov 12, 2015
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#709
eternally-gratefull said:

do you trust God with every area of your life?


Faith is a broad term..

There is faith in God for salvation,

then their is faith in God for living this life..

I became faithless in the second part because of what happened.. I got angry,, and in the flesh, left..
Click to expand...
I think of it a bit differently. Faith is not a broad term. It just means trust.
But it is broad in the sense that that faith must extend to every corner of my life and my thoughts.
When you ask if I trust God with every area of my life, I take you to be asking are there areas of mistrust in God.
I know of no areas currently that I am not either in trust OR in the struggle to persevere in trust.
I've been jobless for 5 years. That sounds like it should be impossible but it is not.
I have been off and on in a struggle to trust Him in this, to not worry that I'll starve to death or be living on the street.

This is something someone might find interesting that I've learned through it. Satan had me convinced that every time the slightest thought of my situation came into my head, that I was sinning. But God showed me that temptation is not sin unless you advert to it. So then, the temptation to begin worrying about it again is not me sinning - it is satan tempting and harassing me! It is satan tempting me to sin. It doesn't become sin until I advert to it and then get swept away in the flood water of worry and raising my blood pressure and crying and getting depressed.

Because I know of no area that I am either not trusting Him in OR am struggling with an area for a season, this does not mean there might not be areas where I'm not trusting. But I'm not aware of any, and I just work on the areas He has shown me by His word and/or by the circumstances He brings to me. And I learn to not advert to the temptation to not trust and I tell satan to shut up because him tempting me is NOT me sinning - it is him sinning! So then I resist the devil and he flees. He comes back and tries again and it's annoying but...I WANT to be right here, struggling with what I'm struggling with, because this is all Gods' hand and/or things He permits, for the sole purpose of growing my trust, which is more precious than gold.

As to the 5 year situation you shared with us, different men would think differing things about whether you were lost, in danger of being severed, never saved to begin with, and on and on. But only YOU know if you completely abandoned him or if you were still communing with His Spirit sometimes, or what. Their opinions on it shouldn't matter all that much to you.
 
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Stunnedbygrace

Senior Member
#710
Nov 12, 2015
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#710
eternally-gratefull said:

No, Because we all deserve eternal death, He did not increase because he Never had faith.. This he stood on his own, because he rejected the cross.
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Where do you get that he rejected the cross? Are the talents the blood? That would mean He gives more of the blood to some men and less of the blood to some men and they are expected to...grow the blood?

You say he never increased because he never had any faith. So what was the talent he was given. We already know I believe it was a measure of faith and that you believe it was some gifting. But how will he be held responsible for not growing or increasing a gifting when he had no faith and no gfiting comes BUT through faith? The point of the parable seems to be that some measure of something was given to each man and that they were expected to do something with it in order to obtain more of it.
 
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Stunnedbygrace

Senior Member
#711
Nov 12, 2015
9,112
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#711
Stunnedbygrace said:
Where do you get that he rejected the cross? Are the talents the blood? That would mean He gives more of the blood to some men and less of the blood to some men and they are expected to...grow the blood?

You say he never increased because he never had any faith. So what was the talent he was given. We already know I believe it was a measure of faith and that you believe it was some gifting. But how will he be held responsible for not growing or increasing a gifting when he had no faith and no gfiting comes BUT through faith? The point of the parable seems to be that some measure of something was given to each man and that they were expected to do something with it in order to obtain more of it.
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A verse popped into my mind that is relevant.
If you won't stand firm I cannot make you stand firm.
And another: If we are faithful with a little more will be given.
 
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wsblind

Guest
#712
#712
Stunnedbygrace said:
Okay, I can work with this. :)
So, access to the tree of life is a reward?
In heaven, some will be denied access to this tree of life. They might not be, but Sometimes this tree of life may be denied to them and other times it may be granted that they can access it.

So then, what is this tree of life? What's it for? What does it do? What happens when I am not permitted access to it and what happens on the days when I am permitted access to it?

And...one more question - since access to this tree of life is a reward, what can you tell me about exactly what I have to do to get this reward?
Click to expand...
Lots of questions I can't answer. But the tree of life often represents our positive choices for God. The tree of life represents Gods choice for man and His way. And we need to choose His way. And it often represents knowledge or wisdom.
And the "paradise of God" sets the stage for a center park, or like where the party is. The gathering of people for a party.

So if we advance in His mind and live the Christian life(overcome) we will have free access to the garden of God.

ANd your not gonna like this. IMO, if you want to start working on this reward, you are going to have to live by the truth of eternal security to get started. We have to get salvation set in stone in our minds. ANd leave the milk and go onto the meat.

New American Standard Bible
'He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes, I will grant to eat of the tree of life which is in the Paradise of God.'
 
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Stunnedbygrace

Senior Member
#713
Nov 12, 2015
9,112
823
113
#713
wsblind said:
Lots of questions I can't answer. But the tree of life often represents our positive choices for God. The tree of life represents Gods choice for man and His way. And we need to choose His way. And it often represents knowledge or wisdom.
And the "paradise of God" sets the stage for a center park, or like where the party is. The gathering of people for a party.

So if we advance in His mind and live the Christian life(overcome) we will have free access to the garden of God.

ANd your not gonna like this. IMO, if you want to start working on this reward, you are going to have to live by the truth of eternal security to get started. We have to get salvation set in stone in our minds. ANd leave the milk and go onto theNew American Standard Bible
'He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes, I will grant to eat of the tree of life which is in the Paradise of God.'
Click to expand...

Ah...hmm...you're right I don't like it. This would seem to say many godly men can receive no reward or will be...paupers? in heaven because they believe that branches that don't continue in trust to the end can be cut off. But you are free to believe it. And it doesn't upset me or harm me. :)
 
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Stunnedbygrace

Senior Member
#714
Nov 12, 2015
9,112
823
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#714
Besides the tree of life having been in the middle of the garden, it occurs to me that somewhere in Rev it says that it produces fruit each month and that it's leaves are for healing. So to follow along with what you believe, sometimes healing will not be accessible for women like me in heaven or on the new earth? Or maybe all the time? So there will be unhealed people...?
I don't know. I think it needs some work.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#715
#715
Stunnedbygrace said:
I think of it a bit differently. Faith is not a broad term. It just means trust.
But it is broad in the sense that that faith must extend to every corner of my life and my thoughts.
When you ask if I trust God with every area of my life, I take you to be asking are there areas of mistrust in God.
I know of no areas currently that I am not either in trust OR in the struggle to persevere in trust.
I've been jobless for 5 years. That sounds like it should be impossible but it is not.
I have been off and on in a struggle to trust Him in this, to not worry that I'll starve to death or be living on the street.

This is something someone might find interesting that I've learned through it. Satan had me convinced that every time the slightest thought of my situation came into my head, that I was sinning. But God showed me that temptation is not sin unless you advert to it. So then, the temptation to begin worrying about it again is not me sinning - it is satan tempting and harassing me! It is satan tempting me to sin. It doesn't become sin until I advert to it and then get swept away in the flood water of worry and raising my blood pressure and crying and getting depressed.

Because I know of no area that I am either not trusting Him in OR am struggling with an area for a season, this does not mean there might not be areas where I'm not trusting. But I'm not aware of any, and I just work on the areas He has shown me by His word and/or by the circumstances He brings to me. And I learn to not advert to the temptation to not trust and I tell satan to shut up because him tempting me is NOT me sinning - it is him sinning! So then I resist the devil and he flees. He comes back and tries again and it's annoying but...I WANT to be right here, struggling with what I'm struggling with, because this is all Gods' hand and/or things He permits, for the sole purpose of growing my trust, which is more precious than gold.

As to the 5 year situation you shared with us, different men would think differing things about whether you were lost, in danger of being severed, never saved to begin with, and on and on. But only YOU know if you completely abandoned him or if you were still communing with His Spirit sometimes, or what. Their opinions on it shouldn't matter all that much to you.
Click to expand...

Do you trust in God to save you or not

It is not about me trusting God in every area f my life. I doubt anyone does that, if we did, we probably would not sin. (although I would say some think they do. I would be seriously worried about them if they did)

Salvation is about faith in Christ and the cross.. Not about faith in areas of my life.

Yes. people would disagree if I was saved or not. And thats fine, What matters is what God said,, And he said he would never leave me never forsake me, and he would continue the good work he began. My faith (trust) is in that, Without it I have nothing..
 
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wsblind

Guest
#716
#716
Stunnedbygrace said:
Ah...hmm...you're right I don't like it. This would seem to say many godly men can receive no reward or will be...paupers? in heaven because they believe that branches that don't continue in trust to the end can be cut off. But you are free to believe it. And it doesn't upset me or harm me. :)
Click to expand...
This is exactly what I mean by getting off of the milk and moving on to the meat.

If we believe everything is milk and every passage is about milk(salvation) we can't see the meat.

Go to a point of doctrine or dogmatic,clear,in your face, easy to understand verse about salvation or eternal security.

John 5:24~~New American Standard Bible
"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Now if this set in our head and we believe it, and view scripture from this prism ,we can understand the meat of a more obscure verse that talks about fruit,branches and fire. But if we are stuck on the milk and salvation pretty much every verse is going to be about getting salvation or losing salvation. And our theology will be FULL of contradictions.
 
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Stunnedbygrace

Senior Member
#717
Nov 12, 2015
9,112
823
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#717
eternally-gratefull said:

Do you trust in God to save you or not

It is not about me trusting God in every area f my life. I doubt anyone does that, if we did, we probably would not sin. (although I would say some think they do. I would be seriously worried about them if they did)

Salvation is about faith in Christ and the cross.. Not about faith in areas of my life.

Yes. people would disagree if I was saved or not. And thats fine, What matters is what God said,, And he said he would never leave me never forsake me, and he would continue the good work he began. My faith (trust) is in that, Without it I have nothing..
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I disagree that faith doesn't include trusting all He said but only in trusting Him for eternal life. You will say you didn't say that but to me you did say it. I think if I advert to the temptation to worry about starving to death or being on the streets because I can't find a job, I am not trusting what He said. I don't want to trust Him for the pleasant sounding things that are gracious to my ears, like getting to live forever but then fail to trust what He said about provision, and worry that I will starve or live on the street and that I'm not to worry about these things like unbelievers do but just seek Him first and all these other things I need will be taken care of.

So you believe I'm okay if I decide to not believe Him and to worry instead that what He said might not be true and that I'll starve or live on the street. You say my unbelief and mistrust regarding an earthly matter that He talked about is not an unbelief that could bring harm to me regarding my eternal state and that only unbelief in the matter of living forever will cause danger to me. But to me, if I say I have faith (trust in Him) for the big thing of eternal life but don't trust Him regarding a temporary matter, I just prove myself to be a liar and a hypocrite.
 
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Stunnedbygrace

Senior Member
#719
Nov 12, 2015
9,112
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#719
wsblind said:
This is exactly what I mean by getting off of the milk and moving on to the meat.

If we believe everything is milk and every passage is about milk(salvation) we can't see the meat.

Go to a point of doctrine or dogmatic,clear,in your face, easy to understand verse about salvation or eternal security.

John 5:24~~New American Standard Bible
"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Now if this set in our head and we believe it, and view scripture from this prism ,we can understand the meat of a more obscure verse that talks about fruit,branches and fire. But if we are stuck on the milk and salvation pretty much every verse is going to be about getting salvation or losing salvation. And our theology will be FULL of contradictions.
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I'm laughing. Not at you. But I'm laughing because I believe it is your theology that has a glaring contradiction.
 
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