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Oct 18, 2023
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#1
James Chapter 2

1 My brethren, have not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ of glory with respect of persons. 2 For if there shall come into your assembly a man having a golden ring, in fine apparel, and there shall come in also a poor man in mean attire, 3 And you have respect to him that is clothed with the fine apparel, and shall say to him: Sit thou here well; but say to the poor man: Stand thou there, or sit under my footstool: 4 Do you not judge within yourselves, and are become judges of unjust thoughts? 5 Hearken, my dearest brethren: hath not God chosen the poor in this world, rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which God hath promised to them that love him?

6 But you have dishonoured the poor man. Do not the rich oppress you by might? and do not they draw you before the judgment seats? 7 Do not they blaspheme the good name that is invoked upon you? 8 If then you fulfill the royal law, according to the scriptures, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself; you do well. 9 But if you have respect to persons, you commit sin, being reproved by the law as transgressors. 10 And whosoever shall keep the whole law, but offend in one point, is become guilty of all.

11 For he that said, Thou shalt not commit adultery, said also, Thou shalt not kill. Now if thou do not commit adultery, but shalt kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law. 12 So speak ye, and so do, as being to be judged by the law of liberty. 13 For judgment without mercy to him that hath not done mercy. And mercy exalteth itself above judgment. 14 What shall it profit, my brethren, if a man say he hath faith, but hath not works? Shall faith be able to save him? 15 And if a brother or sister be naked, and want daily food:

16 And one of you say to them: Go in peace, be ye warmed and filled; yet give them not those things that are necessary for the body, what shall it profit? 17 So faith also, if it have not works, is dead in itself. 18 But some man will say: Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without works; and I will shew thee, by works, my faith. 19 Thou believest that there is one God. Thou dost well: the devils also believe and tremble. 20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, offering up Isaac his son upon the altar? 22 Seest thou, that faith did co-operate with his works; and by works faith was made perfect? 23 And the scripture was fulfilled, saying: Abraham believed God, and it was reputed to him to justice, and he was called the friend of God. 24 Do you see that by works a man is justified; and not by faith only? 25 And in like manner also Rahab the harlot, was not she justified by works, receiving the messengers, and sending them out another way?

26 For even as the body without the spirit is dead; so also faith without works is dead.
 
Oct 18, 2023
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#2
John Chapter 1

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him: and without him was made nothing that was made. 4 In him was life, and the life was the light of men. 5 And the light shineth in darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.

6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7 This man came for a witness, to give testimony of the light, that all men might believe through him. 8 He was not the light, but was to give testimony of the light. 9 That was the true light, which enlighteneth every man that cometh into this world. 10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not. 12 But as many as received him, he gave them power to be made the sons of God, to them that believe in his name. 13 Who are born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. 14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we saw his glory, the glory as it were of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. 15 John beareth witness of him, and crieth out, saying: This was he of whom I spoke: He that shall come after me, is preferred before me: because he was before me.

16 And of his fulness we all have received, and grace for grace. 17 For the law was given by Moses; grace and truth came by Jesus Christ. 18 No man hath seen God at any time: the only begotten Son who is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him. 19 And this is the testimony of John, when the Jews sent from Jerusalem priests and Levites to him, to ask him: Who art thou? 20 And he confessed, and did not deny: and he confessed: I am not the Christ.

21 And they asked him: What then? Art thou Elias? And he said: I am not. Art thou the prophet? And he answered: No. 22 They said therefore unto him: Who art thou, that we may give an answer to them that sent us? What sayest thou of thyself? 23 He said: I am the voice of one crying out in the wilderness, make straight the way of the Lord, as said the prophet Isaias. 24 And they that were sent, were of the Pharisees. 25 And they asked him, and said to him: Why then dost thou baptize, if thou be not Christ, nor Elias, nor the prophet?

26 John answered them, saying: I baptize with water; but there hath stood one in the midst of you, whom you know not. 27 The same is he that shall come after me, who is preferred before me: the latchet of whose shoe I am not worthy to loose. 28 These things were done in Bethania, beyond the Jordan, where John was baptizing. 29 The next day, John saw Jesus coming to him, and he saith: Behold the Lamb of God, behold him who taketh away the sin of the world. 30 This is he, of whom I said: After me there cometh a man, who is preferred before me: because he was before me.

31 And I knew him not, but that he may be made manifest in Israel, therefore am I come baptizing with water. 32 And John gave testimony, saying: I saw the Spirit coming down, as a dove from heaven, and he remained upon him. 33 And I knew him not; but he who sent me to baptize with water, said to me: He upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining upon him, he it is that baptizeth with the Holy Ghost. 34 And I saw, and I gave testimony, that this is the Son of God. 35 The next day again John stood, and two of his disciples.

36 And beholding Jesus walking, he saith: Behold the Lamb of God. 37 And the two disciples heard him speak, and they followed Jesus. 38 And Jesus turning, and seeing them following him, saith to them: What seek you? Who said to him, Rabbi, (which is to say, being interpreted, Master,) where dwellest thou? 39 He saith to them: Come and see. They came, and saw where he abode, and they stayed with him that day: now it was about the tenth hour. 40 And Andrew, the brother of Simon Peter, was one of the two who had heard of John, and followed him.

41 He findeth first his brother Simon, and saith to him: We have found the Messias, which is, being interpreted, the Christ. 42 And he brought him to Jesus. And Jesus looking upon him, said: Thou art Simon the son of Jona: thou shalt be called Cephas, which is interpreted Peter. 43 On the following day, he would go forth into Galilee, and he findeth Philip. And Jesus saith to him: Follow me. 44 Now Philip was of Bethsaida, the city of Andrew and Peter. 45 Philip findeth Nathanael, and saith to him: We have found him of whom Moses in the law, and the prophets did write, Jesus the son of Joseph of Nazareth.

46 And Nathanael said to him: Can any thing of good come from Nazareth? Philip saith to him: Come and see. 47 Jesus saw Nathanael coming to him: and he saith of him: Behold an Israelite indeed, in whom there is no guile. 48 Nathanael saith to him: Whence knowest thou me? Jesus answered, and said to him: Before that Philip called thee, when thou wast under the fig tree, I saw thee. 49 Nathanael answered him, and said: Rabbi, thou art the Son of God, thou art the King of Israel. 50 Jesus answered, and said to him: Because I said unto thee, I saw thee under the fig tree, thou believest: greater things than these shalt thou see.

51 And he saith to him: Amen, amen I say to you, you shall see the heaven opened, and the angels of God ascending and descending upon the Son of man.
 
Oct 18, 2023
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#3
John Chapter 7

1 After these things Jesus walked in Galilee; for he would not walk in Judea, because the Jews sought to kill him. 2 Now the Jews' feast of tabernacles was at hand. 3 And his brethren said to him: Pass from hence, and go into Judea; that thy disciples also may see thy works which thou dost. 4 For there is no man that doth any thing in secret, and he himself seeketh to be known openly. If thou do these things, manifest thyself to the world. 5 For neither did his brethren believe in him.

6 Then Jesus said to them: My time is not yet come; but your time is always ready. 7 The world cannot hate you; but me it hateth: because I give testimony of it, that the works thereof are evil. 8 Go you up to this festival day, but I go not up to this festival day: because my time is not accomplished. 9 When he had said these things, he himself stayed in Galilee. 10 But after his brethren were gone up, then he also went up to the feast, not openly, but, as it were, in secret.

11 The Jews therefore sought him on the festival day, and said: Where is he? 12 And there was much murmuring among the multitude concerning him. For some said: He is a good man. And others said: No, but he seduceth the people. 13 Yet no man spoke openly of him, for fear of the Jews. 14 Now about the midst of the feast, Jesus went up into the temple, and taught. 15 And the Jews wondered, saying: How doth this man know letters, having never learned?

16 Jesus answered them, and said: My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me. 17 If any man do the will of him; he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself. 18 He that speaketh of himself, seeketh his own glory: but he that seeketh the glory of him that sent him, he is true, and there is no injustice in him. 19 Did Moses not give you the law, and yet none of you keepeth the law? 20 Why seek you to kill me? The multitude answered, and said: Thou hast a devil; who seeketh to kill thee?

21 Jesus answered, and said to them: One work I have done; and you all wonder: 22 Therefore, Moses gave you circumcision (not because it is of Moses, but of the fathers and on the sabbath day you circumcise a man. 23 If a man receive circumcision on the sabbath day, that the law of Moses may not be broken; are you angry at me because I have healed the whole man on the sabbath day? 24 Judge not according to the appearance, but judge just judgment. 25 Some therefore of Jerusalem said: Is not this he whom they seek to kill?

26 And behold, he speaketh openly, and they say nothing to him. Have the rulers known for a truth, that this is the Christ? 27 But we know this man, whence he is: but when the Christ cometh, no man knoweth whence he is. 28 Jesus therefore cried out in the temple, teaching, and saying: You both know me, and you know whence I am: and I am not come of myself; but he that sent me, is true, whom you know not. 29 I know him, because I am from him, and he hath sent me. 30 They sought therefore to apprehend him: and no man laid hands on him, because his hour was not yet come.

31 But of the people many believed in him, and said: When the Christ cometh, shall he do more miracles, than these which this man doth? 32 The Pharisees heard the people murmuring these things concerning him: and the rulers and Pharisees sent ministers to apprehend him. 33 Jesus therefore said to them: Yet a little while I am with you: and then I go to him that sent me. 34 You shall seek me, and shall not find me: and where I am, thither you cannot come. 35 The Jews therefore said among themselves: Whither will he go, that we shall not find him? will he go unto the dispersed among the Gentiles, and teach the Gentiles?

36 What is this saying that he hath said: You shall seek me, and shall not find me; and where I am, you cannot come? 37 And on the last, and great day of the festivity, Jesus stood and cried, saying: If any man thirst, let him come to me, and drink. 38 He that believeth in me, as the scripture saith, Out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. 39 Now this he said of the Spirit which they should receive, who believed in him: for as yet the Spirit was not given, because Jesus was not yet glorified. 40 Of that multitude therefore, when they had heard these words of his, some said: This is the prophet indeed.

41 Others said: This is the Christ. But some said: Doth the Christ come out of Galilee? 42 Doth not the scripture say: That Christ cometh of the seed of David, and from Bethlehem the town where David was? 43 So there arose a dissension among the people because of him. 44 And some of them would have apprehended him: but no man laid hands on him. 45 The ministers therefore came to the chief priests and the Pharisees. And they said to them: Why have you not brought him?

46 The ministers answered: Never did man speak like this man. 47 The Pharisees therefore answered them: Are you also seduced? 48 Hath any one of the rulers believed in him, or of the Pharisees? 49 But this multitude, that knoweth not the law, are accursed. 50 Nicodemus said to them, (he that came to him by night, who was one of them

51 Doth our law judge any man, unless it first hear him, and know what he doth? 52 They answered, and said to him: Art thou also a Galilean? Search the scriptures, and see, that out of Galilee a prophet riseth not. 53 And every man returned to his own house.
 

wattie

Senior Member
Feb 24, 2009
3,016
1,019
113
New Zealand
#4
Justification by works in James is not about eternal life justification.. but having acts of service justified before God. That is the context. Rahab etc.. were using faith they already had. Not that they were working to get saved or HAD to work after being saved.. but choosing to serve God out of conviction from faith they already had.

'Dead' in 'faith without works is dead'.. by context.. is 'lifelessness, barreness, dryness.. etc.' NOT 'gone' 'removed' 'lost'

The gone, removed, lost.. isn't in the context of the rest of the book of James, and would contradict other sections of scripture such as most of the book of John.
 

turbosixx

Active member
Sep 16, 2023
541
122
43
#5
Justification by works in James is not about eternal life justification.. but having acts of service justified before God. That is the context. Rahab etc.. were using faith they already had. Not that they were working to get saved or HAD to work after being saved.. but choosing to serve God out of conviction from faith they already had.

'Dead' in 'faith without works is dead'.. by context.. is 'lifelessness, barreness, dryness.. etc.' NOT 'gone' 'removed' 'lost'

The gone, removed, lost.. isn't in the context of the rest of the book of James, and would contradict other sections of scripture such as most of the book of John.
What does "having act of service justified before God" mean? I've never heard of it nor read anything about that in scripture.

James is talking about eternal judgement. Look at his first example in the context. James gives an example of a brother or sister in need. When we see that need and do not give, James asks what use is that.
15 If a brother or sister is without clothing and in need of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and be filled,” yet you do not give them what is necessary for their body, what use is that?
In the next verse, he tells us that that is faith without works and it is dead. 17 In the same way, faith also, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself.

How do I know that this is about eternal judgement? Matthew 25. In Matthew 25, Jesus tells us of the day of judgement where He divides those for eternal life or destruction. Look at what Jesus uses as justification for each destination. The exact same thing James uses as an example, what we do or not do for someone in need.

31 “But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne. 32 And all the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, just as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats; 33 and He will put the sheep on His right, but the goats on the left.

34 “Then the King will say to those on His right, ‘Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35 For I was hungry, and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me something to drink; I was a stranger, and you invited Me in; 36 naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you visited Me; I was in prison, and you came to Me.’ 37 Then the righteous will answer Him, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry, and feed You, or thirsty, and give You something to drink? 38 And when did we see You as a stranger, and invite You in, or naked, and clothe You? 39 And when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’ 40 And the King will answer and say to them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it for one of the least of these brothers or sisters of Mine, you did it for Me.’

41 “Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, you accursed people, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels; 42 for I was hungry, and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink; 43 I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me.’ 44 Then they themselves also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or as a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not take care of You?’ 45 Then He will answer them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it for one of the least of these, you did not do it for Me, either.’ 46 These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
 

wattie

Senior Member
Feb 24, 2009
3,016
1,019
113
New Zealand
#6
What does "having act of service justified before God" mean? I've never heard of it nor read anything about that in scripture.

James is talking about eternal judgement. Look at his first example in the context. James gives an example of a brother or sister in need. When we see that need and do not give, James asks what use is that.
15 If a brother or sister is without clothing and in need of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and be filled,” yet you do not give them what is necessary for their body, what use is that?
In the next verse, he tells us that that is faith without works and it is dead. 17 In the same way, faith also, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself.

How do I know that this is about eternal judgement? Matthew 25. In Matthew 25, Jesus tells us of the day of judgement where He divides those for eternal life or destruction. Look at what Jesus uses as justification for each destination. The exact same thing James uses as an example, what we do or not do for someone in need.

31 “But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne. 32 And all the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, just as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats; 33 and He will put the sheep on His right, but the goats on the left.

34 “Then the King will say to those on His right, ‘Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35 For I was hungry, and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me something to drink; I was a stranger, and you invited Me in; 36 naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you visited Me; I was in prison, and you came to Me.’ 37 Then the righteous will answer Him, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry, and feed You, or thirsty, and give You something to drink? 38 And when did we see You as a stranger, and invite You in, or naked, and clothe You? 39 And when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’ 40 And the King will answer and say to them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it for one of the least of these brothers or sisters of Mine, you did it for Me.’

41 “Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, you accursed people, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels; 42 for I was hungry, and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink; 43 I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me.’ 44 Then they themselves also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or as a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not take care of You?’ 45 Then He will answer them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it for one of the least of these, you did not do it for Me, either.’ 46 These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
Different contexts.

So James when he writes about being justified by works... Abrahams work of being prepared to offer up his son Isaac, was 'justified by works'..

But he was justified, not by works, when he was saved earlier, when he believed.

So in James ..all these examples are of works pleasing to God.. but these people would have believed and been justified for salvation earlier ..just like Abraham.

A just act before God

A just salvation from God

Different things.. different contexts
 

turbosixx

Active member
Sep 16, 2023
541
122
43
#7
Different contexts.

So James when he writes about being justified by works... Abrahams work of being prepared to offer up his son Isaac, was 'justified by works'..

But he was justified, not by works, when he was saved earlier, when he believed.

So in James ..all these examples are of works pleasing to God.. but these people would have believed and been justified for salvation earlier ..just like Abraham.

A just act before God

A just salvation from God

Different things.. different contexts
I disagree. The act James was talking about was the same act Jesus used to send people to their final destination.
 

Blain

The Word Weaver
Aug 28, 2012
19,211
2,547
113
#9
James Chapter 2

1 My brethren, have not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ of glory with respect of persons. 2 For if there shall come into your assembly a man having a golden ring, in fine apparel, and there shall come in also a poor man in mean attire, 3 And you have respect to him that is clothed with the fine apparel, and shall say to him: Sit thou here well; but say to the poor man: Stand thou there, or sit under my footstool: 4 Do you not judge within yourselves, and are become judges of unjust thoughts? 5 Hearken, my dearest brethren: hath not God chosen the poor in this world, rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which God hath promised to them that love him?

6 But you have dishonoured the poor man. Do not the rich oppress you by might? and do not they draw you before the judgment seats? 7 Do not they blaspheme the good name that is invoked upon you? 8 If then you fulfill the royal law, according to the scriptures, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself; you do well. 9 But if you have respect to persons, you commit sin, being reproved by the law as transgressors. 10 And whosoever shall keep the whole law, but offend in one point, is become guilty of all.

11 For he that said, Thou shalt not commit adultery, said also, Thou shalt not kill. Now if thou do not commit adultery, but shalt kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law. 12 So speak ye, and so do, as being to be judged by the law of liberty. 13 For judgment without mercy to him that hath not done mercy. And mercy exalteth itself above judgment. 14 What shall it profit, my brethren, if a man say he hath faith, but hath not works? Shall faith be able to save him? 15 And if a brother or sister be naked, and want daily food:

16 And one of you say to them: Go in peace, be ye warmed and filled; yet give them not those things that are necessary for the body, what shall it profit? 17 So faith also, if it have not works, is dead in itself. 18 But some man will say: Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without works; and I will shew thee, by works, my faith. 19 Thou believest that there is one God. Thou dost well: the devils also believe and tremble. 20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, offering up Isaac his son upon the altar? 22 Seest thou, that faith did co-operate with his works; and by works faith was made perfect? 23 And the scripture was fulfilled, saying: Abraham believed God, and it was reputed to him to justice, and he was called the friend of God. 24 Do you see that by works a man is justified; and not by faith only? 25 And in like manner also Rahab the harlot, was not she justified by works, receiving the messengers, and sending them out another way?

26 For even as the body without the spirit is dead; so also faith without works is dead.
What is your purpose for asking this in the several threads you have asked this?
Can you answer this to me?
 

montana123

Well-known member
Oct 9, 2021
735
251
63
#11
James Chapter 2

1 My brethren, have not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ of glory with respect of persons. 2 For if there shall come into your assembly a man having a golden ring, in fine apparel, and there shall come in also a poor man in mean attire, 3 And you have respect to him that is clothed with the fine apparel, and shall say to him: Sit thou here well; but say to the poor man: Stand thou there, or sit under my footstool: 4 Do you not judge within yourselves, and are become judges of unjust thoughts? 5 Hearken, my dearest brethren: hath not God chosen the poor in this world, rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which God hath promised to them that love him?

6 But you have dishonoured the poor man. Do not the rich oppress you by might? and do not they draw you before the judgment seats? 7 Do not they blaspheme the good name that is invoked upon you? 8 If then you fulfill the royal law, according to the scriptures, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself; you do well. 9 But if you have respect to persons, you commit sin, being reproved by the law as transgressors. 10 And whosoever shall keep the whole law, but offend in one point, is become guilty of all.

11 For he that said, Thou shalt not commit adultery, said also, Thou shalt not kill. Now if thou do not commit adultery, but shalt kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law. 12 So speak ye, and so do, as being to be judged by the law of liberty. 13 For judgment without mercy to him that hath not done mercy. And mercy exalteth itself above judgment. 14 What shall it profit, my brethren, if a man say he hath faith, but hath not works? Shall faith be able to save him? 15 And if a brother or sister be naked, and want daily food:

16 And one of you say to them: Go in peace, be ye warmed and filled; yet give them not those things that are necessary for the body, what shall it profit? 17 So faith also, if it have not works, is dead in itself. 18 But some man will say: Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without works; and I will shew thee, by works, my faith. 19 Thou believest that there is one God. Thou dost well: the devils also believe and tremble. 20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, offering up Isaac his son upon the altar? 22 Seest thou, that faith did co-operate with his works; and by works faith was made perfect? 23 And the scripture was fulfilled, saying: Abraham believed God, and it was reputed to him to justice, and he was called the friend of God. 24 Do you see that by works a man is justified; and not by faith only? 25 And in like manner also Rahab the harlot, was not she justified by works, receiving the messengers, and sending them out another way?

26 For even as the body without the spirit is dead; so also faith without works is dead.
Out of hope, faith, and charity, love in action, charity is the greatest.

Charity is greater than faith, and faith works by love.

Everything stems from love, and to not have love means you do not have faith.

For faith has the proper perspective of God's kingdom which is to love people which love is the fulfilling of the law.

To not love people means your faith does not apply.

And love can only be done in action, and not by words, which is why James said if you say be warmed, and filled, but do not help them then how do you have faith, or if you say I love you, have a nice day, hope all goes well, but do not care about their needs then how do you have faith.

Which John said do not love in word, neither in tongue, but by deeds, works, and truth.

People argue over Paul and James over works which why would they think there is a contradiction in scripture.

Paul said we are saved by faith, and not by works, for that is all we can do when we first confess Christ.

But when we receive the Spirit then we have to have works of love to have faith active in our life.

Which Paul said he could have all faith so that he could remove mountains, but if he did not charity then he is nothing.

Paul said if any person says godliness is gain from such withdraw yourself from having food and clothing be content.

For the love of money is the root of all evil for it neglects the poor and needy which love is the fulfilling of the law.

Which Paul said if they love money then they have erred from the faith.

So if they do not want to help the poor and needy when they have the means then faith does not apply in their life for they have the improper perspective of faith.

James said if they have the means to feed and clothe the poor and needy, but do not do it then their faith is dead.

So Paul and James are saying the same thing but people argue over them.

That is why James said show me your faith without works because it cannot be done, but he will show you his faith by his works which are works of love.

James is saying that he shows his faith by his works because that is love, and love is greater than faith.

You cannot have faith unless you have love which can only be done in action.

That is why James said a person is justified by works and not faith alone because there is no faith if there is no works of love.

Which these are not always works that have to do with helping the poor and needy with their needs, but anything people need help with.

Like Rahab the harlot who was justified by works when she received the Hebrew men, and sent them out another way to escape harm.

And Abraham was justified by works when he offered Isaac upon the altar which Abraham became the father of all nations and we are blessed because of it.

Faith without works is dead meaning it has no meaning to apply for salvation.

We have to have works of love to have faith apply in our life to be saved.

And the Bible says love does not think an evil thought, and does not rejoice in iniquity, but rejoices in the truth to be led by the Spirit and be Christlike.

If people hold unto sin then that is not love so then faith does not apply in their life.

This does not mean we might not sin but we have to get rid of it and move forward in the Spirit.

Even Peter was not walking uprightly according to the Gospel at one time when he would ignore the Gentile saints, and eat with the Hebrews who were of the circumcision because he feared them which Paul got in his face and told him to stop doing that.

But he got rid of that sin and moved forward in the Spirit.
 

bluto

Senior Member
Aug 4, 2016
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#12
John Chapter 7

1 After these things Jesus walked in Galilee; for he would not walk in Judea, because the Jews sought to kill him. 2 Now the Jews' feast of tabernacles was at hand. 3 And his brethren said to him: Pass from hence, and go into Judea; that thy disciples also may see thy works which thou dost. 4 For there is no man that doth any thing in secret, and he himself seeketh to be known openly. If thou do these things, manifest thyself to the world. 5 For neither did his brethren believe in him.

6 Then Jesus said to them: My time is not yet come; but your time is always ready. 7 The world cannot hate you; but me it hateth: because I give testimony of it, that the works thereof are evil. 8 Go you up to this festival day, but I go not up to this festival day: because my time is not accomplished. 9 When he had said these things, he himself stayed in Galilee. 10 But after his brethren were gone up, then he also went up to the feast, not openly, but, as it were, in secret.

11 The Jews therefore sought him on the festival day, and said: Where is he? 12 And there was much murmuring among the multitude concerning him. For some said: He is a good man. And others said: No, but he seduceth the people. 13 Yet no man spoke openly of him, for fear of the Jews. 14 Now about the midst of the feast, Jesus went up into the temple, and taught. 15 And the Jews wondered, saying: How doth this man know letters, having never learned?

16 Jesus answered them, and said: My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me. 17 If any man do the will of him; he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself. 18 He that speaketh of himself, seeketh his own glory: but he that seeketh the glory of him that sent him, he is true, and there is no injustice in him. 19 Did Moses not give you the law, and yet none of you keepeth the law? 20 Why seek you to kill me? The multitude answered, and said: Thou hast a devil; who seeketh to kill thee?

21 Jesus answered, and said to them: One work I have done; and you all wonder: 22 Therefore, Moses gave you circumcision (not because it is of Moses, but of the fathers and on the sabbath day you circumcise a man. 23 If a man receive circumcision on the sabbath day, that the law of Moses may not be broken; are you angry at me because I have healed the whole man on the sabbath day? 24 Judge not according to the appearance, but judge just judgment. 25 Some therefore of Jerusalem said: Is not this he whom they seek to kill?

26 And behold, he speaketh openly, and they say nothing to him. Have the rulers known for a truth, that this is the Christ? 27 But we know this man, whence he is: but when the Christ cometh, no man knoweth whence he is. 28 Jesus therefore cried out in the temple, teaching, and saying: You both know me, and you know whence I am: and I am not come of myself; but he that sent me, is true, whom you know not. 29 I know him, because I am from him, and he hath sent me. 30 They sought therefore to apprehend him: and no man laid hands on him, because his hour was not yet come.

31 But of the people many believed in him, and said: When the Christ cometh, shall he do more miracles, than these which this man doth? 32 The Pharisees heard the people murmuring these things concerning him: and the rulers and Pharisees sent ministers to apprehend him. 33 Jesus therefore said to them: Yet a little while I am with you: and then I go to him that sent me. 34 You shall seek me, and shall not find me: and where I am, thither you cannot come. 35 The Jews therefore said among themselves: Whither will he go, that we shall not find him? will he go unto the dispersed among the Gentiles, and teach the Gentiles?

36 What is this saying that he hath said: You shall seek me, and shall not find me; and where I am, you cannot come? 37 And on the last, and great day of the festivity, Jesus stood and cried, saying: If any man thirst, let him come to me, and drink. 38 He that believeth in me, as the scripture saith, Out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. 39 Now this he said of the Spirit which they should receive, who believed in him: for as yet the Spirit was not given, because Jesus was not yet glorified. 40 Of that multitude therefore, when they had heard these words of his, some said: This is the prophet indeed.

41 Others said: This is the Christ. But some said: Doth the Christ come out of Galilee? 42 Doth not the scripture say: That Christ cometh of the seed of David, and from Bethlehem the town where David was? 43 So there arose a dissension among the people because of him. 44 And some of them would have apprehended him: but no man laid hands on him. 45 The ministers therefore came to the chief priests and the Pharisees. And they said to them: Why have you not brought him?

46 The ministers answered: Never did man speak like this man. 47 The Pharisees therefore answered them: Are you also seduced? 48 Hath any one of the rulers believed in him, or of the Pharisees? 49 But this multitude, that knoweth not the law, are accursed. 50 Nicodemus said to them, (he that came to him by night, who was one of them

51 Doth our law judge any man, unless it first hear him, and know what he doth? 52 They answered, and said to him: Art thou also a Galilean? Search the scriptures, and see, that out of Galilee a prophet riseth not. 53 And every man returned to his own house.
You have quoted various scriptures directly and I would like to know what is the point or points you are trying to make? In other words, what's your bottom line or purpose?

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
 
Oct 18, 2023
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#13
You have quoted various scriptures directly and I would like to know what is the point or points you are trying to make? In other words, what's your bottom line or purpose?

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
I posted various scripture because I love the Bible. :)

2 Timothy 3:16
16 All scripture, inspired of God, is profitable to teach, to reprove, to correct, to instruct in justice. 17 That the man of God may be perfect, furnished to every good work.
 

Wsb

Member
Nov 19, 2023
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#14
What does "having act of service justified before God" mean? I've never heard of it nor read anything about that in scripture.

James is talking about eternal judgement. Look at his first example in the context. James gives an example of a brother or sister in need. When we see that need and do not give, James asks what use is that.
15 If a brother or sister is without clothing and in need of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and be filled,” yet you do not give them what is necessary for their body, what use is that?
In the next verse, he tells us that that is faith without works and it is dead. 17 In the same way, faith also, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself.

How do I know that this is about eternal judgement? Matthew 25. In Matthew 25, Jesus tells us of the day of judgement where He divides those for eternal life or destruction. Look at what Jesus uses as justification for each destination. The exact same thing James uses as an example, what we do or not do for someone in need.

31 “But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne. 32 And all the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, just as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats; 33 and He will put the sheep on His right, but the goats on the left.

34 “Then the King will say to those on His right, ‘Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35 For I was hungry, and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me something to drink; I was a stranger, and you invited Me in; 36 naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you visited Me; I was in prison, and you came to Me.’ 37 Then the righteous will answer Him, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry, and feed You, or thirsty, and give You something to drink? 38 And when did we see You as a stranger, and invite You in, or naked, and clothe You? 39 And when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’ 40 And the King will answer and say to them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it for one of the least of these brothers or sisters of Mine, you did it for Me.’

41 “Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, you accursed people, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels; 42 for I was hungry, and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink; 43 I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me.’ 44 Then they themselves also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or as a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not take care of You?’ 45 Then He will answer them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it for one of the least of these, you did not do it for Me, either.’ 46 These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
Hi,
I agree with your response. If faith is required for salvation and faith is dead, the question of salvation jumps out. I would like to add one thing to your use of the sheep and goats. Christ uses the term brothers. I don't believe he calls the unsaved his brothers. However, this passage is and has been used by missionaries all over the world to help the lost. Second point...., hungry, thirsty, naked, imprisoned, sick are all spiritual terms used by Christ. Could he be referring to our responsibility toward the church. Help those who are weak in faith, struggle with sin, imprisoned by deception etc. These things are all present in the current apostate church.
P.s. James also used the term brothers when talking about helping others.
 

Wsb

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Nov 19, 2023
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#15
‭‭1 Peter‬ ‭2:17‬ ‭KJV‬‬ Honour all men. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honour the king.
The apostles knew the difference between brothers and " all men".
 

JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
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#16
Faith is a gift akin to gold. This known and understood, read the parable of the gold talents given to the servants of the Master to care for while He was to be away for a time.. Note that the servant who buried his talent in the soil was thrown out into the outer darkness for having NOT increased on its value.

Perhaps this is what is meant by works. Does this respond dto your question? I certainly do hope it does. God bless you always.
 

JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
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#17
‭‭1 Peter‬ ‭2:17‬ ‭KJV‬‬ Honour all men. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honour the king.
The apostles knew the difference between brothers and " all men".
Well noted, I will remember this lesson, thank you.
 

Wsb

Member
Nov 19, 2023
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#18
One more thing...
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭25:40‬ ‭KJV‬‬
And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

‭‭Matthew‬ ‭25:45‬ ‭KJV‬‬
Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.

It appears clear that both of these refer to brothers. I truly believe this story has been misinterpreted by many.
Well noted, I will remember this lesson, thank you.
Well noted, I will remember this lesson, thank you.
Please don't thank me my brother. If I have said anything true it is from the holy spirit inside me. Let's us always give God the glory.
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
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#19
Different contexts.

So James when he writes about being justified by works... Abrahams work of being prepared to offer up his son Isaac, was 'justified by works'..

But he was justified, not by works, when he was saved earlier, when he believed.

So in James ..all these examples are of works pleasing to God.. but these people would have believed and been justified for salvation earlier ..just like Abraham.

A just act before God

A just salvation from God

Different things.. different contexts
Amen! In James 2:21, notice closely that James does not say that Abraham's work of offering up Isaac resulted in God accounting Abraham as righteous. The accounting of Abraham's faith as righteousness was made in Genesis 15:6, many years before his work of offering up Isaac recorded in Genesis 22. The work of Abraham did not have some kind of intrinsic merit to account him as righteous, but it showed or manifested the genuineness of his faith. That is the "sense" in which Abraham was "justified by works." He was shown to be righteous.
 

Evmur

Well-known member
Feb 28, 2021
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christianchat.com
#20
Amen! In James 2:21, notice closely that James does not say that Abraham's work of offering up Isaac resulted in God accounting Abraham as righteous. The accounting of Abraham's faith as righteousness was made in Genesis 15:6, many years before his work of offering up Isaac recorded in Genesis 22. The work of Abraham did not have some kind of intrinsic merit to account him as righteous, but it showed or manifested the genuineness of his faith. That is the "sense" in which Abraham was "justified by works." He was shown to be righteous.
exactly