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mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
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#21
Okay we can agree to disagree. But remember context context context
Context is critical. In James 2:14, we read of one who says/claims (key word) he has faith but has no works (to evidence his claim). That is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. So, when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" he is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith/dead faith.

So, James does not teach that we are saved "by" works. His concern is to show the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine.

James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God. (Romans 4:2-3)

Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible - Greek word for justified "dikaioo" #1344 is:

1. to render righteous or such he ought to be
2. to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered - context.
3. to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be
 
Sep 28, 2023
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#23
Justification by works in James is not about eternal life justification.. but having acts of service justified before God. That is the context. Rahab etc.. were using faith they already had. Not that they were working to get saved or HAD to work after being saved.. but choosing to serve God out of conviction from faith they already had.

And had they NOT done those good works because of the faith they already had... they would not have been justified.


But isn't belief a work?

Yes, believing is a good work that we have been called to...

The Lord says the following thru the Apostle James:

James 2:24
Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

James 2:20
But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

Apparently one is justified by faith AND by works.... and the man that believes justification is by faith only is a "vain" man.

Sounds like either Jesus is wrong or the so called reformers are wrong since they teach an partial truth and leave the part out about works leaving the door open to sinful living (license to sin).

Ephesians 2:10
For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

It's not a matter of trying to earn salvation thru good works... It's a matter of being obedient verses being disobedient!

Those that accept the calling of the Lord and become new creatures in Christ Jesus abiding in Him doing good works by the power of the Holy Spirit within as the Lord leads... these are true children of God.

Those claiming to be saved not walking in obedience have rejected the ordination and calling of the Lord and are the children of disobedience who refuse to put on the new man and walk in newness of life to stop being servants of sin...

Colossians 3:5-9
Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:
For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:
In the which ye also walked some time, when ye lived in them.
But now ye also put off all these; anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy communication out of your mouth.
Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds;
And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:


Ephesians 4:24
And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

Romans 13:14
But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof.

Hebrews 9:14
How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

Romans 6:4-6
Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.


As these scripture references indicate, those not accepting the calling of the Lord to be led by the Holy Ghost into walking after the new man are in disobedience... which will NOT end well for them unless they repent of their sin and get with the Lord's game plan!

Romans 2:7-11 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: For there is no respect of persons with God. Colossians 3:6 the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:



The apostles knew the difference between brothers and " all men".

They also understood that some are false brothers too... tares among wheat as Jesus called them.
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
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#26
And had they NOT done those good works because of the faith they already had... they would not have been justified.
Had they NOT done those good works they would have demonstrated a lack of faith but of course, that was not the case. When Abraham (for example) performed the good work in Genesis 22; he fulfilled the expectations created by the pronouncement of his faith in Genesis 15:6. Abraham was accounted as righteous based on his faith (Genesis 15:6) not his works (Romans 4:2-3) long before he offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22.

Yes, believing is a good work that we have been called to...
Believing is not just another work in a series of works in a quest to receive salvation by works. Through believing that results in salvation, we are trusting in Another's work, Christ's finished work of redemption. (Romans 3:24-28; 4:5-6) Good works which "follow" believing unto salvation are the fruit of salvation, but not the root of it.

The Lord says the following thru the Apostle James:

James 2:24
Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
Context. "Faith only" or "faith alone" here equates to an empty profession of faith/dead faith that "remains alone" - barren of works. (James 2:14) Hence, faith only. Not to be confused with faith that trusts in Jesus Christ alone for salvation and not in works. (Romans 4:5-6; 5:1; Ephesians 2:8,9)

You need to remember that James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God. (Romans 4:2-3) Works bear out the justification that already came by faith.

James 2:20
But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
In James 2:20, "faith without works is dead" does not mean that faith is dead until it produces works and then it becomes a living faith or that works are the source of life in faith. That would be like saying that a tree is dead until it produces fruit and then it becomes a living tree, and the fruit is the source of life in the tree. James is simply saying faith that is not accompanied by evidential works demonstrates that it's dead. So, if someone merely says-claims they have faith, but lack resulting evidential works, then they demonstrate that they have an empty profession of faith/dead faith (James 2:14) and not authentic faith. Simple!

Apparently one is justified by faith AND by works.... and the man that believes justification is by faith only is a "vain" man.
False. You just exposed yourself here of teaching salvation by works which explains a lot!:(

Man is justified (accounted as righteous) by faith and not by works (Romans 4:2-6) and man is justified (shown to be righteous) by works. (James 2:21, 24)

Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible - Greek word for justified "dikaioo" #1344 is:

1. to render righteous or such he ought to be - context of Romans 4:2-6.
2. to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered - context of James 2:24.
3. to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be

Sounds like either Jesus is wrong or the so-called reformers are wrong since they teach an partial truth and leave the part out about works leaving the door open to sinful living (license to sin).
It's you who is wrong and neither James nor genuine believers promote sinful living (license to sin). That is your straw man.

Ephesians 2:10
For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
We are made alive together with Christ and saved by grace through faith FIRST then UNTO good works. (Ephesians 2:5-10) Don't put the cart before the horse.

It's not a matter of trying to earn salvation thru good works... It's a matter of being obedient verses being disobedient!
It's a matter of trying to earn salvation through good works IF you are trusting in good works for salvation and not in Christ alone.

Those that accept the calling of the Lord and become new creatures in Christ Jesus abiding in Him doing good works by the power of the Holy Spirit within as the Lord leads... these are true children of God.
Descriptive of genuine believers and not make believers.

Those claiming to be saved not walking in obedience have rejected the ordination and calling of the Lord and are the children of disobedience who refuse to put on the new man and walk in newness of life to stop being servants of sin...
Descriptive of make believers and not genuine believers.

CONTINUED..
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
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#27
JimmyTheLock said: Colossians 3:5-9
Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:
For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:
In the which ye also walked some time, when ye lived in them.
But now ye also put off all these; anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy communication out of your mouth.
Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds;
And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:


Ephesians 4:24
And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

Romans 13:14
But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof.

Hebrews 9:14
How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

Romans 6:4-6
Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.


As these scripture references indicate, those not accepting the calling of the Lord to be led by the Holy Ghost into walking after the new man are in disobedience... which will NOT end well for them unless they repent of their sin and get with the Lord's game plan!
Those who are born of God may have previously walked in sinful ways, but no longer. (1 John 3:7-10) Only genuine believers are new creations in Christ (2 Corinthians 5:17) and have put on the new man and walk in newness of life. Perverting the gospel by teaching salvation by works along with promoting straw man arguments and slander is not the Lord's game plan and it's also not how we put on the new man/put on the Lord Jesus Christ and walk in newness of life. There are genuine Christians and there are "nominal" (pseudo) Christians. There are genuine believers and there are make believers and sometimes it's easy to tell them apart.

"Put off," wrote Paul, "the old man," and "put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness"(Ephesians 4:22,24); And "put on the whole armor of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil." (Ephesians 6:11) The allusion is putting off old clothes and putting on new ones, to enclosing oneself in armor, etc. When a soldier puts on armor, he is imitating his superiors and is revealing himself to be a soldier. One does not put on a uniform in order to become a soldier. Simply putting on a soldier's uniform of a make believer does not make one become a soldier. Once one is first made a soldier and then is able to put on and wear the uniform that distinguishes or marks them as a soldier.

Romans 2:7-11
To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: For there is no respect of persons with God.
I often hear works-salvationists cite these verses in order to support their claim that man is saved by works. If one reads Romans 2:5-11 in isolation from the rest of the book of Romans, one might conclude that Paul was teaching salvation by works, as demonstrated by you. However, as you read and study these passages, it’s critical to keep in mind that these verses do not describe how one becomes saved, but the way the saved conduct their lives. These works done are the result of, not the means or basis of receiving eternal life.

So patient continuance in well doing, seeking for glory, honor, and immortality; (vs. 7) is not at all set forth as the means of their procuring eternal life, but as a description of those to whom God does render life eternal.

*Notice that ALL who receive eternal life are described as such, everyone who does good (vs. 10). Good deeds flow from a heart that is saved and evil deeds flow from a heart that is unsaved. Verse 8 - but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth but obey unrighteousness--indignation and wrath.

*Notice that ALL who do not receive eternal life are described as such, everyone who does evil (vs. 9). What those passages convey is that though our deeds are judged by God, it's not the good deeds themselves which are the basis or means by which we receive eternal life, but the type of deeds expose our heart condition and salvation status.

These good deeds done out of faith are the fruit of, but not the root of salvation. If Paul wanted to teach that we are saved by works, then he would have clearly stated that we are saved through faith and works in Ephesians 2:8 and that we are justified by faith and works in Romans 5:1 but that is clearly NOT what Paul said. *Also see (Romans 3:24-28; 4:4-6; 11:6; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9 etc..).

Colossians 3:6
the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:
Descriptive of unbelievers.

They also understood that some are false brothers too... tares among wheat as Jesus called them.
Sadly, the tares outnumber the wheat by far.
 

rogerg

Well-known member
Jul 13, 2021
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#28
No belief is a response to conviction on the heart.. accepting God's invitation. Not a work.
[Jhn 6:28-29 KJV]
28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
 

Blade

Well-known member
Nov 19, 2019
1,640
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#29
Yes we all love His word and thanks for posting it but.. are you trying to say something? We know if you believe in Yeshua John 3:16, Rom 10:9-10 your saved. We know if you don't your not saved. But.. man why do you have to use such huge text at the end? Sure easy to say Love you Yeshua/Jesus.. but do we love respect feelings of there's? The huge text? I truly feel like your yelling ever time every post you make. Hard for me to read.. do we care? :)
 

rogerg

Well-known member
Jul 13, 2021
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#30
Had they NOT done those good works they would have demonstrated a lack of faith but of course, that was not the case. When Abraham (for example) performed the good work in Genesis 22; he fulfilled the expectations created by the pronouncement of his faith in Genesis 15:6. Abraham was accounted as righteous based on his faith (Genesis 15:6) not his works (Romans 4:2-3) long before he offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22.
Respectfully, mailmandan, I have a little different take than you do regarding Abraham's belief (and I hope I can explain this in a way that is easily understandable, but which I may not be able to do). Anyway, I believe that Abraham's belief came from the faith reckoned unto him from God (see Rom 4:9) but it was not Abraham's belief of or from himself: belief was God's gift to him which belief comes to all those chosen by God unto salvation. Notice in Rom 4:9, that faith was reckoned by God to Abraham in order for him to be made righteous, and through which (see Gen 15:6), Abraham would then attribute his belief, to God's righteousness.

[Rom 4:9 KJV] 9 [Cometh] this blessedness then upon the circumcision [only], or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.

I believe in Genesis 15:6, that Abraham was attributing his belief to the LORD's righteousness; that is, the second "he" represents himself (Abraham); the "him", the LORD. IOW, as a result of Abraham being given belief, Abraham could then comprehend that his belief was from/by the LORD, given to him for righteousness, thereby realizing that it was God who was righteous. To paraphrase:
"And he believed in the LORD and Abraham counted it to the LORD for righteousness".

[Gen 15:6 KJV] 6 And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.

Only God's (Jesus's) faith is righteous, man's is not: all righteousness comes only through/by Christ.

[Phl 3:9 KJV] 9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

If you need me to clarify, please let me know.
 
Sep 28, 2023
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#31
No belief is a response to conviction on the heart.. accepting God's invitation. Not a work.
It's actually something we do... God does not believe for us, it's something we have to decide to do.

So this "response" is actually a good work...


[Jhn 6:28-29 KJV]
28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
Exactly!
 

turbosixx

Active member
Sep 16, 2023
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#32
Different contexts.

So James when he writes about being justified by works... Abrahams work of being prepared to offer up his son Isaac, was 'justified by works'..

But he was justified, not by works, when he was saved earlier, when he believed.

So in James ..all these examples are of works pleasing to God.. but these people would have believed and been justified for salvation earlier ..just like Abraham.

A just act before God

A just salvation from God

Different things.. different contexts
I believe context is king and I do consider the context. I respectfully suggest you are the one not sticking to the context. James gives us the context of Abraham's faith but since that one doesn't fit your narrative, you go to the one that seems to fit your narrative.

I suggest the context is summarized in the preceding verse. James is talking about judgement and mercy.
13 For judgment is without mercy to one who has shown no mercy. Mercy triumphs over judgment.
James then gives us a hypothetical example of someone not showing mercy having a faith that has no works. Then he gives the real-world example of Abraham offering up Isaac, proving that works complete faith.
James is talking about eternal things because he says of dead faith, "Can that faith save him?"

I'm not aware of the bible telling us Abraham was saved or justified earlier without works. Did Abraham do nothing to fulfill the promise God makes to him in Gen. 15? He had faith and works there also. He had to do something to fulfill the promise and he did it believing God. He even gets to the point that what he was doing wasn't fulfilling God's promise, so he ignorantly goes into Hagar to fulfill the promise.

Please consider, the bible tells us how we may know we are in Christ. By this we may know that we are in him
Is it by our belief or belief that works?
 
Sep 28, 2023
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#33
Is it by our belief or belief that works?


The Lord says the following thru the Apostle James:

James 2:17
Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.


James 2:20
But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?


James 2:24
Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

James 1:21,22
Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness (walking after the flesh – see Gal 6:7,8), and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.
But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.


One is justified by faith AND by works.... and the man that believes justification is by faith only is a "vain" man as we see in James 2:20.
 

turbosixx

Active member
Sep 16, 2023
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#34
Hi,
I agree with your response. If faith is required for salvation and faith is dead, the question of salvation jumps out. I would like to add one thing to your use of the sheep and goats. Christ uses the term brothers. I don't believe he calls the unsaved his brothers. However, this passage is and has been used by missionaries all over the world to help the lost. Second point...., hungry, thirsty, naked, imprisoned, sick are all spiritual terms used by Christ. Could he be referring to our responsibility toward the church. Help those who are weak in faith, struggle with sin, imprisoned by deception etc. These things are all present in the current apostate church.
P.s. James also used the term brothers when talking about helping others.
Excellent points. To your first point, I would go to this verse and I believe this is for us individually.
10 So then, as we have opportunity, let us do good to everyone, and especially to those who are of the household of faith.
Second point, I'll have to think about Matt. 25 being spiritually. I do believe we should absolutely be doing those things for our brothers/sisters. Physically and spiritually. That is one of the responsibilities of the members of the church.
 

turbosixx

Active member
Sep 16, 2023
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#35
The Lord says the following thru the Apostle James:

James 2:17
Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.


James 2:20
But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?


James 2:24
Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

James 1:21,22
Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness (walking after the flesh – see Gal 6:7,8), and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.
But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.


One is justified by faith AND by works.... and the man that believes justification is by faith only is a "vain" man as we see in James 2:20.
Yep, it's really easy if we just read and believe what it says.
 
W

Wsb

Guest
#36
Excellent points. To your first point, I would go to this verse and I believe this is for us individually.
10 So then, as we have opportunity, let us do good to everyone, and especially to those who are of the household of faith.
Second point, I'll have to think about Matt. 25 being spiritually. I do believe we should absolutely be doing those things for our brothers/sisters. Physically and spiritually. That is one of the responsibilities of the members of the church.
Agreed, I believe both of these have physical as well as spiritual meaning. My point was really to draw attention to the full attention being on just physical support. I would say it is most likely meant for spiritual support to the brotherhood from the terms used
 

turbosixx

Active member
Sep 16, 2023
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#37
Amen! In James 2:21, notice closely that James does not say that Abraham's work of offering up Isaac resulted in God accounting Abraham as righteous. The accounting of Abraham's faith as righteousness was made in Genesis 15:6, many years before his work of offering up Isaac recorded in Genesis 22. The work of Abraham did not have some kind of intrinsic merit to account him as righteous, but it showed or manifested the genuineness of his faith. That is the "sense" in which Abraham was "justified by works." He was shown to be righteous.
I agree to some degree. I agree him offering Isaac proved Abraham to be faithful. James says it also fulfilled God's declaration of Abraham being righteous.

Abraham proved, by his works, himself to be faithful before Gen. 15?
8 By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to a place that he was to receive as an inheritance. And he went out, not knowing where he was going. 9 By faith he went to live in the land of promise, as in a foreign land, living in tents with Isaac and Jacob, heirs with him of the same promise.
 

turbosixx

Active member
Sep 16, 2023
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#38
Agreed, I believe both of these have physical as well as spiritual meaning. My point was really to draw attention to the full attention being on just physical support. I would say it is most likely meant for spiritual support to the brotherhood from the terms used
I always see the spiritual over the physical. I think about all the years God working with Israel. He would often take away the physical to bring them around spiritually. I think about what Jesus says here.
25 But in truth, I tell you, there were many widows in Israel in the days of Elijah, when the heavens were shut up three years and six months, and a great famine came over all the land, 26 and Elijah was sent to none of them but only to Zarephath, in the land of Sidon, to a woman who was a widow. 27 And there were many lepers in Israel in the time of the prophet Elisha, and none of them was cleansed, but only Naaman the Syrian.”
If the physical was a higher priority, we would have seen Jesus and the prophets heal a whole lot more people.
 
W

Wsb

Guest
#39
I agree to some degree. I agree him offering Isaac proved Abraham to be faithful. James says it also fulfilled God's declaration of Abraham being righteous.

Abraham proved, by his works, himself to be faithful before Gen. 15?
8 By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to a place that he was to receive as an inheritance. And he went out, not knowing where he was going. 9 By faith he went to live in the land of promise, as in a foreign land, living in tents with Isaac and Jacob, heirs with him of the same promise.
I see a pretty simple message from James. It may have been a response to abuse of Paul's message of grace, I don't know. However,it seems James is simply saying,if your faith doesn't make you a working servant, it won't save you either. I don't see much to argue, I just accept it as it reads.
 
Sep 28, 2023
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#40
Yep, it's really easy if we just read and believe what it says.

Therein lies the problem for many in these modern times... the western world is all about hedonistic lifestyles and have been trained to believe.... without sin, how can one have any fun? clueless.gif