He that believeth and is baptized, shall be saved: but he that believeth not shall be condemned.

[oyster67]

Just in case someone is confused about the difference between Baptism unto Salvation (Holy Spirit Baptism) and Water Baptism...

Water Baptism is never associated with either Salvation or receiving the Holy Spirit.
In John 1:33, John Baptist draws a direct distinction between his water baptism and Holy Spirit baptism by Jesus...

John 1:33
“And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.”

In the book of Acts, The Holy Spirit is introduced in stages. The time of Acts is a transitional period.

1.) In Acts 2, The HS comes upon a group meeting in an upper room and is manifest in a flame of fire...
Acts 2:
1And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place. 2And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting. 3And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them. 4And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

2.) Later in Acts, the Holy Spirit is bestowed upon John Baptist's followers by the laying on of Hands by the Apostles.
e.g...
Acts 19:
1And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples, 2He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost. 3And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism. 4Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus. 5When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 6And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

We now understand that the baptism that is associated with salvation and the receiving of the Holy Ghost is Jesus' Baptism. We no longer seek out Apostles for laying on of hands but go directly to Jesus.

Water baptism is now only a ritual which points back to our true experience of being born again by Jesus.

 

[wattie]

Just in case someone is confused about the difference between Baptism unto Salvation (Holy Spirit Baptism) and Water Baptism...

Water Baptism is never associated with either Salvation or receiving the Holy Spirit.
In John 1:33, John Baptist draws a direct distinction between his water baptism and Holy Spirit baptism by Jesus...

John 1:33
“And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.”

In the book of Acts, The Holy Spirit is introduced in stages. The time of Acts is a transitional period.

1.) In Acts 2, The HS comes upon a group meeting in an upper room and is manifest in a flame of fire...
Acts 2:
1And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place. 2And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting. 3And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them. 4And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

2.) Later in Acts, the Holy Spirit is bestowed upon John Baptist's followers by the laying on of Hands by the Apostles.
e.g...
Acts 19:
1And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples, 2He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost. 3And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism. 4Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus. 5When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 6And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

We now understand that the baptism that is associated with salvation and the receiving of the Holy Ghost is Jesus' Baptism. We no longer seek out Apostles for laying on of hands but go directly to Jesus.

Water baptism is now only a ritual which points back to our true experience of being born again by Jesus.

Yes water baptism is the right response. But it's belief in Jesus Christ as God..that He lived sinless died and rose again and that by believing He can forgive your sin that salvation is given.

Not by being dunked in H20

 

[JimmyTheLock]

Dude, John said we cannot live in sin,, You say we can.

That's funny... sure are lots of people claiming to be Christian living in sin.
As in MOST of them!

Did you not notice God's warnings to Christians in His Word concerning mass deception in the end times causing many to fall away?

This is speaking of Christians... who got born again, and false teachers deceived them in to falling away... back in to sin.

Of couse what these folks do is live in sin and just "claim" they aren't... but they not foolin the Lord.

Too bad you only believe bits and prices of God's Word... that won't end well for you dude!

But the truth is you yourself will have your own sin struggle.

Not anymore I don't... I learned from studying the whole counsel of God how to be an over comer thru Christ!!

I've heard a lot of things about Paul but this is a new one for me.

Oh yeah, many of the OSAS peoples claim Paul lived in sin... and was a sinner!

This helps them feel better about themselves so they too can go ahead and live in sin and be a sinner!

 

[JimmyTheLock]

Not by being dunked in H20

So, when Jesus commands His followers to be baptized in water for remission of sin... it's all good if we just ignore that?

He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved (Mark 16:16)

Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost (Acts 2:38).

 

[wattie]

So, when Jesus commands His followers to be baptized in water for remission of sin... it's all good if we just ignore that? View attachment 258318

He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved (Mark 16:16)

Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost (Acts 2:38).

First thing.. The book of John again has belief without baptism in most cases.

The part with Nicodemus is also about the water of the womb at birth, and then later being born again. Not immersion for believers.

Second ... When we take a med 'for' a headache...

That is not to get the headache, but because we already have it.

Same kind of case with Acts 2:38.

Third.. these aren't verses where the opposite is necessarily true.

Like ... Don't be baptised and you won't have eternal life.

That line is no where in scripture.

Fourth... believers were baptised pretty much straight after profession of faith in NT times. So this is also part of the reason for having baptism in there along side belief.

Lastly.. in Greek.. word order isn't as important as English. It is instead about emphasis. So.. what is the emphasis... Jesus and His eternal gift of salvation, or water baptism, when talking about receiving salvation?

 

[turbosixx]

Oh yeah, many of the OSAS peoples claim Paul lived in sin... and was a sinner!

This helps them feel better about themselves so they too can go ahead and live in sin and be a sinner!

Whether they believe it or not, that is the result of OSAS. Able to continue in sin and still be saved. I worked with a guy who was cheating on his wife. I asked him if he worried about his soul. He said he was still saved but he wouldn't get any rewards. He divorced his wife and married the one he was cheating with. The fruits of OSAS. You can live in adultery and still be saved. A license to sin.

 

[turbosixx]

Just in case someone is confused about the difference between Baptism unto Salvation (Holy Spirit Baptism) and Water Baptism...

Water Baptism is never associated with either Salvation or receiving the Holy Spirit.
In John 1:33, John Baptist draws a direct distinction between his water baptism and Holy Spirit baptism by Jesus...

John 1:33
“And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.”

In the book of Acts, The Holy Spirit is introduced in stages. The time of Acts is a transitional period.

1.) In Acts 2, The HS comes upon a group meeting in an upper room and is manifest in a flame of fire...
Acts 2:
1And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place. 2And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting. 3And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them. 4And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

2.) Later in Acts, the Holy Spirit is bestowed upon John Baptist's followers by the laying on of Hands by the Apostles.
e.g...
Acts 19:
1And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples, 2He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost. 3And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism. 4Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus. 5When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 6And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

We now understand that the baptism that is associated with salvation and the receiving of the Holy Ghost is Jesus' Baptism. We no longer seek out Apostles for laying on of hands but go directly to Jesus.

Water baptism is now only a ritual which points back to our true experience of being born again by Jesus.

I suggest words are how information is communicated. If we change the words, the message, almost always, will be different. I suggest doing a search for "baptism with" the HS and you will see it only happened twice. It was directly from God and evident by speaking in tongues. Each was a special situation. The apostles at the establishment of the church and God making it 100% clear to the Jews that the Gentiles are to be included in the church. If you do a bible search for "baptized by" or "baptism of" the HS, you will see the bible never says that.

Also, about Acts 19, if you look at the end of ch. 18, you'll see that those men were not followers of John the Baptist. They were converted by Apollos. 24 Now a Jew named Apollos, an Alexandrian by birth, an eloquent man, came to Ephesus; and he was proficient in the Scriptures. 25 This man had been instructed in the way of the Lord; and being fervent in spirit, he was accurately speaking and teaching things about Jesus, being acquainted only with the baptism of John;

 

[Cameron143]

Whether they believe it or not, that is the result of OSAS. Able to continue in sin and still be saved. I worked with a guy who was cheating on his wife. I asked him if he worried about his soul. He said he was still saved but he wouldn't get any rewards. He divorced his wife and married the one he was cheating with. The fruits of OSAS. You can live in adultery and still be saved. A license to sin.

This individual had a poor understanding of OSAS. Individuals will continue to sin. Those who repent give evidence of salvation. Those who do not have a lifestyle of sin. The former are probably saved. The latter are not.
Just because there is poor teaching on the subject doesn't make OSAS incorrect any more than poor teaching of any doctrine refutes a doctrine.

 

[turbosixx]

This individual had a poor understanding of OSAS. Individuals will continue to sin. Those who repent give evidence of salvation. Those who do not have a lifestyle of sin. The former are probably saved. The latter are not.
Just because there is poor teaching on the subject doesn't make OSAS incorrect any more than poor teaching of any doctrine refutes a doctrine.

I agree we all sin, if we say we have no sin we are liars. However, Once Saved Always Saved teaches it doesn't matter whether you have works of righteousness or if you continue in sin. There is nothing you can do to gain or lose salvation.
If you're saying that those who do works of righteousness (repent give evidence of salvation) are saved and those who do not (have a life style of sin) are not saved, I fail to see how that is saved by faith alone and/or OSAS. If my friend believed on Jesus before he became an adulterer. Doesn't OSAS mean he is saved?

24 The one who keeps His commandments remains in Him, and He in him. We know by this that He remains in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.

 

[Cameron143]

I agree we all sin, if we say we have no sin we are liars. However, Once Saved Always Saved teaches it doesn't matter whether you have works of righteousness or if you continue in sin. There is nothing you can do to gain or lose salvation.
If you're saying that those who do works of righteousness (repent give evidence of salvation) are saved and those who do not (have a life style of sin) are not saved, I fail to see how that is saved by faith alone and/or OSAS. If my friend believed on Jesus before he became an adulterer. Doesn't OSAS mean he is saved?

24 The one who keeps His commandments remains in Him, and He in him. We know by this that He remains in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.

No it doesn't. I told you what the correct understanding is. You can, like Jimmy, continue to espouse an incorrect understanding and make false claims if you like.

 

[The_Watchers_2017]

God, did the work for you to believe by giving you the faith to believe.

In that same Faith, which is the work done by God, God will do His worksssssssss through you.

But, it requires you to be compliant when God tells you what to do that you do it.

But even though you are doing it, you are doing it because God told you to do it. So, it's still God's Worksssss being done, never our own.

It literally is God doing everything. You are just a Vessel allowing God to Work.

But it requires submission and obedience to whenever God wants to Work that you do what He tells you to do.

Faith without works is Dead!

In other words, you are given Faith but if you don't do what God wants you to do then there's no works, it's just DEAD. Because God is not able to work through the Faith He gave to you.

 

[wattie]

I agree we all sin, if we say we have no sin we are liars. However, Once Saved Always Saved teaches it doesn't matter whether you have works of righteousness or if you continue in sin. There is nothing you can do to gain or lose salvation.
If you're saying that those who do works of righteousness (repent give evidence of salvation) are saved and those who do not (have a life style of sin) are not saved, I fail to see how that is saved by faith alone and/or OSAS. If my friend believed on Jesus before he became an adulterer. Doesn't OSAS mean he is saved?

24 The one who keeps His commandments remains in Him, and He in him. We know by this that He remains in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.

If they had believed on Jesus before becoming an adulterer.. they would be still saved. But the thing is.. they would then be convicted and rebuked by the Holy Spirit to restore relationship to Him. That is the consequence for sin.. not being sent to hell. So.. to continue in that sin.. would be a wretched existence of rebuke and admonishment from the Holy Spirit.

It would be very unlikely they would continue in being an adulterer. Hence why in the bible when you see a person characterised as an adulterer.. it is usually someone not converted.. because their whole life is characterised by that.

There is a difference between a believer who struggles with sin and someone whose entire life is characterised by it.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

That's funny... sure are lots of people claiming to be Christian living in sin.
As in MOST of them!

Did you not notice God's warnings to Christians in His Word concerning mass deception in the end times causing many to fall away?

This is speaking of Christians... who got born again, and false teachers deceived them in to falling away... back in to sin.

Of couse what these folks do is live in sin and just "claim" they aren't... but they not foolin the Lord.

Too bad you only believe bits and prices of God's Word... that won't end well for you dude!
!

lol

God said a child born of God can not live in sin, and this is your answer.

Its not going to end well for you if you do not repent.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

Salvation is received only as a gift through/ by the faith of Christ; it is not by/through the faith of man in any sense- His faith brought salvation, ours cannot; His faith is righteous, ours is not. Our faith comes to us solely as a gift from salvation - a result, not cause. Christ provided everything necessary for salvation, we provide nothing - we are but the recipients of that which He accomplished, and that is what makes it by grace - that everything needed was done by Him on our behalf - otherwise, it wouldn't/couldn't be by grace. Remember, it is Christ alone and in all ways who is the Saviour, man is not.

[Gal 2:16 KJV]
16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

[Phl 3:9 KJV]
9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

[Heb 3:1-2 KJV]
1 Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;
2 Who was faithful to him that appointed him, as also Moses [was faithful] in all his house.

[Rom 1:4-5 KJV]
4 And declared [to be] the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:
5 By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:

[Gal 2:20 KJV]
20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Once again

For it is by grace we have been saved THROUGH FAITH.

Sorry bro. Your not saved unless you trust God, because unless you trust God you will never recieve his grace gift.

 

[wattie]

Salvation is received only as a gift through/ by the faith of Christ; it is not by/through the faith of man in any sense- His faith brought salvation, ours cannot; His faith is righteous, ours is not. Our faith comes to us solely as a gift from salvation - a result, not cause. Christ provided everything necessary for salvation, we provide nothing - we are but the recipients of that which He accomplished, and that is what makes it by grace - that everything needed was done by Him on our behalf - otherwise, it wouldn't/couldn't be by grace. Remember, it is Christ alone and in all ways who is the Saviour, man is not.

[Gal 2:16 KJV]
16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

[Phl 3:9 KJV]
9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

[Heb 3:1-2 KJV]
1 Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;
2 Who was faithful to him that appointed him, as also Moses [was faithful] in all his house.

[Rom 1:4-5 KJV]
4 And declared [to be] the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:
5 By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:

[Gal 2:20 KJV]
20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and be saved. All through the book of John. That is not a work. It's the Holy Spirit convicting your soul and you accepting that conviction. Allowed to believe by God's grace. He convicts.. and then we can believe. Romans 10:9-10 also.

 

[turbosixx]

No it doesn't. I told you what the correct understanding is. You can, like Jimmy, continue to espouse an incorrect understanding and make false claims if you like.

I'm sorry but it's right there in the name of the doctrine. tt Once Saved Always Saved
How can you say my adulterer friend wasn't at some point in the past, saved. If you're speculating the state of his salvation based on how he lives his life, I can agree with that. However, that is not proof he didn't at one time get saved. If I understand the OSAS position correctly, the moment you believe you're saved. By that definition, he is saved because he knows and believes the gospel.

 

[turbosixx]

If they had believed on Jesus before becoming an adulterer.. they would be still saved. But the thing is.. they would then be convicted and rebuked by the Holy Spirit to restore relationship to Him. That is the consequence for sin.. not being sent to hell. So.. to continue in that sin.. would be a wretched existence of rebuke and admonishment from the Holy Spirit.

It would be very unlikely they would continue in being an adulterer. Hence why in the bible when you see a person characterised as an adulterer.. it is usually someone not converted.. because their whole life is characterised by that.

There is a difference between a believer who struggles with sin and someone whose entire life is characterised by it.

I'm not sure of his current situation. I haven't seen him in years but knowing him as I did and last I heard, he is still with that woman.

Speaking of bible examples, I think about the one in 1 Cor. 5. If OSAS is truth, then they got it right and were boasting about this man being able to have his fathers wife under the law of Christ. Paul however rebukes them and says turn such a person over to Satan for the destruction of his body, so that his spirit may be saved on the day of the Lord.. This is member of the church and Paul says so that his spirit may be saved. As long as he was in this relationship, his soul was in jeopardy. We can see in 2 Cor that this "punishment" worked and he was restored.

 

[Cameron143]

I'm sorry but it's right there in the name of the doctrine. tt Once Saved Always Saved
How can you say my adulterer friend wasn't at some point in the past, saved. If you're speculating the state of his salvation based on how he lives his life, I can agree with that. However, that is not proof he didn't at one time get saved. If I understand the OSAS position correctly, the moment you believe you're saved. By that definition, he is saved because he knows and believes the gospel.

It's easy. He was never saved...they went out from us because they were not of us.
Consider the passage a moment. It was written by a man who walked with Jesus for 3 and a half years. If anyone could recognize the genuine article, it would be him. But he couldn't. Neither did he know Judas would betray Christ. Neither did Paul know that Demus would leave him.
It is possible for a person to profess Christ and outwardly appear to be in the body without ever possessing the Spirit and inwardly remain unchanged.

 

[The_Watchers_2017]

Polycarp hints at the fact that he is referring to Demas when he lists the martyrs and said they did not love this present world. The implication was that Demas did not want to be a martyr so he abandoned Paul in Rome just before he was executed.

what a snake!

 

[Cameron143]

Polycarp hints at the fact that he is referring to Demas when he lists the martyrs and said they did not love this present world. The implication was that Demas did not want to be a martyr so he abandoned Paul in Rome just before he was executed.

what a snake!

Doesn't Paul say it was because of a love for the present world?