He that believeth and is baptized, shall be saved: but he that believeth not shall be condemned.

[rogerg]

i think it’s worth considering if they were baptizing in water before and after the cross for remission of sins and we’re also told by them there’s one baptism that baptism is what it says it is and it is tied to salvstion because Jesus toed it together and offers salvation

Baptism in water does not result in the remission of sin and salvation - it is the symbol of it but not the substance of it.

[Tit 3:5 KJV] 5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

[1Pe 3:21 KJV] 21 The like figure whereunto [even] baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

This baptism is the true baptism.

[1Co 12:13 KJV] 13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether [we be] Jews or Gentiles, whether [we be] bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Baptism in water does not result in the remission of sin and salvation - it is the symbol of it but not the substance of it.

[Tit 3:5 KJV] 5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

[1Pe 3:21 KJV] 21 The like figure whereunto [even] baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

This baptism is the true baptism.

[1Co 12:13 KJV] 13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether [we be] Jews or Gentiles, whether [we be] bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

ive never said it’s the source I’ve just said baptism is doctrine and it’s done on water it always has been it’s what God said to do for remission of sins like this ll I’m doing is saying okay I believe what it says I don’t have to make arguments to say it’s not needed I just read the Bible and agree with what I can learn

The source of mans salvation is Gods mercy towards mankind that led Jesus to the cross where he showed Gods love for mankind on the cross

that has no impact on baptism for repentance and remission of sins taught in the scriptures as our doctrine ……it’s faith to hear and believe

“John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭1:4‬ ‭KJV‬‬

If we hear the gospel then we’ll hear this part

“for this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭26:28‬

jesus after he died and rose

“And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

He that believeth

and is baptized shall be saved; ( believes and is baptized)

but he that believeth not shall be damned.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭16:15-16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

more specifically

“and said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:

and that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭24:46-47‬ ‭

Let’s see what the Bible reveals

“Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins,


and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.


For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

….Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭2:38-39, 41‬ ‭KJV‬‬

But “ water” ?

“And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?

And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest.

And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.

And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭8:36-39‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Why do we need to make water not part of it when it clearly is ? Always has been makes no sense to try to remove water from baptism that’s never what happened the spirit was added to baptism water has always been there

“While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.

…Then answered Peter, Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized,

which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we? And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭10:44, 46-48‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Why is Peter making water baptism important ? It is the very first thing that he addresses when they receive the Holy Spirit ?

There’s no reason for us to try to remove water from baptism or try to change its meaning it makes no sense to me Peter wasn’t confused or wrong he was doing what they were told by God preaching the gospel and when they believed him he was baptizing them in Jesus name for remission of sins Paul was baptized Peter john Jesus Matthew appolos men and women on masses heard the gospel and just like the eunuch of course they wanted to get baptized they believed Gods promise of remission of sins

faithbos when god tells you something to do and also tells you what will happen if you do it and you believe him and act and receive his promise


Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins,


and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.


For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call. “

Before and after the cross they baptized and were baptized in water as Jesus name was pronounced over them like this

“And it came to pass in those days, that Jesus came from Nazareth of Galilee, and was baptized of John in Jordan. And straightway coming up out of the water, he saw the heavens opened, and the Spirit like a dove descending upon him: and there came a voice from heaven, saying,

Thou art my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭1:9-11‬ ‭

Baptism happens in water what makes it significant is that Gpd sent it to the world as doctrine that promises remission of sins when we believe the gospel of Jesus who died for our sins so they could be remitted it’s why his name is pronounced over the sinner

“Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death:

that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭6:3-6‬ ‭KJV‬‬

What else are we supposed to be buried in besides water lol ? Sand ? Fort ? Should we just skip that whole part of the obvious basic doctrine ? I really don’t see why anyone would want to argue against things the Bible creates and makes clear by itself

 

[rogerg]

What else are we supposed to be buried in besides water lol ? Sand ? Fort ? Should we just skip that whole part of the obvious basic doctrine ? I really don’t see why anyone would want to argue against things the Bible creates and makes clear by itself

You said that being baptized in water is for the remission of sin, did you not? I am not saying that we shouldn't be baptized in water,
but that it is only symbolic and ceremonial, representative of what has already occurred to us spiritually, but with no spiritual efficacy of itself. The below was taken from your prior post. I thought it important to clarify that statement. Did I misunderstand you?

"it always has been it’s what God said to do for remission of sins"

 

[JimmyTheLock]

By the same token all you have to do is carefully read the Westminster Confession of Faith to see that Reformed Theology in no way suggests that those who are saved can go on sinning.

Thanks but not thanks... I'll get my beliefs from God's Word not from some fake gospel

In the end, reformed theology still claims that one will go to Heaven even if they live in sin which of course is not biblical so reformed theology still supports OSAS

 

[turbosixx]

“Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.

And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness. But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.”
‭‭2 Peter‬ ‭3:14-18‬

Great passage. One way to prevent "wresting" the scriptures is to keep things in context. I would also add consider the words used. Paul is explaining something to the Romans and the HS has seen fit to use certain words to communicate the message.

I have yet for anyone to answer the question I posed. It's clear Paul is in the middle of an argument in Romans 4 and he uses Abraham as an example to prove his point from the previous chapter. I don't have a problem with using a single verse to prove a point as long as the verse is used in agreement with the context. People use Abraham in Romans for to prove a point, but their point doesn't agree with the context.

If you would like to give me your understanding based on the context, that would be great. What is Paul's point from the previous chapter/s and how does Abraham prove that point?

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Great passage. One way to prevent "wresting" the scriptures is to keep things in context. I would also add consider the words used. Paul is explaining something to the Romans and the HS has seen fit to use certain words to communicate the message.

I have yet for anyone to answer the question I posed. It's clear Paul is in the middle of an argument in Romans 4 and he uses Abraham as an example to prove his point from the previous chapter. I don't have a problem with using a single verse to prove a point as long as the verse is used in agreement with the context. People use Abraham in Romans for to prove a point, but their point doesn't agree with the context.

If you would like to give me your understanding based on the context, that would be great. What is Paul's point from the previous chapter/s and how does Abraham prove that point?

What ? You are talking about this passage right ?

“Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless. And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction. Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness. But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.”
‭‭2 Peter‬ ‭3:14-18‬ ‭KJV‬‬

does Abraham prove that ? I’m not following feller the above there is just what Peter is saying to the church about Paul’s epistles being complex and hard to understand some of the subjects Paul speaks of and how some people take me of his words and distort what he’s actually saying because they don’t know about the other scriptures or they are “ unlearned and unstable “

airs rwally sort of self explanatory peters whole statement is there and complete maybe niv will be better Peter is saying this

“So then, dear friends, since you are looking forward to this, make every effort to be found spotless, blameless and at peace with him. Bear in mind that our Lord’s patience means salvation,

just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him.
He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters.

His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction. Therefore, dear friends, since you have been forewarned,

be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of the lawless and fall from your secure position. But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and forever! Amen.”
‭‭2 Peter‬ ‭3:14-18‬ ‭NIV‬‬

some people take Paul’s letters and distort what he’s saying to make it seem as if he’s saying “ you don’t need to do anything your already saved you don’t have to repent you don’t have to obey your already saved without any condition even if Jesus made the condition your already saved . Faith means you don’t have to hear God and obey him what he said no longer applies your saved by grace the end “

And truly it’s easy to do with Paul’s epistles if a person tries but Abraham ? I’m wondering can you ow my which part you’d like to discuss ? Roman’s 4 ?

having to do with this ?

“What does Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.””
‭‭Romans‬ ‭4:3‬ ‭NIV‬‬

whenever paul is talking about Abraham we can go back and read about what he’s talking about he’s expecting us to have read Abraham’s story with some of his points about Abraham genesis 12-26 or so

 

[turbosixx]

What ? You are talking about this passage right ?

“Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless. And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction. Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness. But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.”
‭‭2 Peter‬ ‭3:14-18‬ ‭KJV‬‬

does Abraham prove that ? I’m not following feller the above there is just what Peter is saying to the church about Paul’s epistles being complex and hard to understand some of the subjects Paul speaks of and how some people take me of his words and distort what he’s actually saying because they don’t know about the other scriptures or they are “ unlearned and unstable “

airs rwally sort of self explanatory peters whole statement is there and complete maybe niv will be better Peter is saying this

“So then, dear friends, since you are looking forward to this, make every effort to be found spotless, blameless and at peace with him. Bear in mind that our Lord’s patience means salvation,

just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him.
He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters.

His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction. Therefore, dear friends, since you have been forewarned,

be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of the lawless and fall from your secure position. But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and forever! Amen.”
‭‭2 Peter‬ ‭3:14-18‬ ‭NIV‬‬

some people take Paul’s letters and distort what he’s saying to make it seem as if he’s saying “ you don’t need to do anything your already saved you don’t have to repent you don’t have to obey your already saved without any condition even if Jesus made the condition your already saved . Faith means you don’t have to hear God and obey him what he said no longer applies your saved by grace the end “

And truly it’s easy to do with Paul’s epistles if a person tries but Abraham ? I’m wondering can you ow my which part you’d like to discuss ? Roman’s 4 ?

having to do with this ?

“What does Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.””
‭‭Romans‬ ‭4:3‬ ‭NIV‬‬

whenever paul is talking about Abraham we can go back and read about what he’s talking about he’s expecting us to have read Abraham’s story with some of his points about Abraham genesis 12-26 or so

Sorry, I assumed you were following the conversation and knew what question I had asked. You know what they say when we assume I wasn't asking about 2 Peter.

My question is about Romans 4 and especially the verse you posted. I suggest people will misuse that verse as their proof without considering the context. By Romans 4:1, Paul is in the middle of his argument. He uses Abraham to provide proof of the point he made in the previous chapter/s. No need to go back to Abraham's story, Paul tells us the parts of the story that make his point. I've asked several people to tell me their understanding of what Paul's point is and why Abraham is proof of that point, based on the context, but no one has answered it yet.

If you would like to tell your understanding that would be great, if not no problem.

 

[Nehemiah6]

If you would like to give me your understanding based on the context, that would be great. What is Paul's point from the previous chapter/s and how does Abraham prove that point?

That is not all that complicated. So you take a close look at Romans 3:26 and then go to Romans 4:2-5 (actually the entire chapter):

To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus... For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

So the theme is justification by grace through faith and imputed righteousness, with Abraham as the prime example.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Sorry, I assumed you were following the conversation and knew what question I had asked. You know what they say when we assume I wasn't asking about 2 Peter.

My question is about Romans 4 and especially the verse you posted. I suggest people will misuse that verse as their proof without considering the context. By Romans 4:1, Paul is in the middle of his argument. He uses Abraham to provide proof of the point he made in the previous chapter/s. No need to go back to Abraham's story, Paul tells us the parts of the story that make his point. I've asked several people to tell me their understanding of what Paul's point is and why Abraham is proof of that point, based on the context, but no one has answered it yet.

If you would like to tell your understanding that would be great, if not no problem.

Well ..to be fair you hadn’t even said that to you so ….

and I still don’t even understand your question which verse and you don’t think it’s a good idea to know what Paul’s talking about regarding Abraham ? Did you notice how often Paul discusses Abraham ? James discusses Abraham ?

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Sorry, I assumed you were following the conversation and knew what question I had asked. You know what they say when we assume I wasn't asking about 2 Peter.

My question is about Romans 4 and especially the verse you posted. I suggest people will misuse that verse as their proof without considering the context. By Romans 4:1, Paul is in the middle of his argument. He uses Abraham to provide proof of the point he made in the previous chapter/s. No need to go back to Abraham's story, Paul tells us the parts of the story that make his point. I've asked several people to tell me their understanding of what Paul's point is and why Abraham is proof of that point, based on the context, but no one has answered it yet.

If you would like to tell your understanding that would be great, if not no problem.

“My question is about Romans 4 and especially the verse you posted. I suggest people will misuse that verse as their proof without considering the context. By Romans 4:1, Paul is in the middle of his argument. He uses Abraham to provide proof of the point he made in the previous chapter/s. No need to go back to Abraham's story, Paul tells us the parts of the story that make his point. I've asked several people to tell me their understanding of what Paul's point is and why Abraham is proof of that point, based on the context, but no one has answered it yet. “

Are you talking about the verse I posted from James ? Faith without works ?

aid you look at what James is saying and what Paul is sayong it completes the concept please consider

“What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? ( i say I believe but my actions don’t match ) can faith save him?

If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, and one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
( if someone’s hungry to help you feed them it’s an action words can’t be eaten)

Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. ( saying i have faith but living like I don’t believe isn’t real faith )


Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. ( you can’t actually show faith with words but with actions they speak also and you can show faith by how you live )


Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. ( demons know that God is real)

But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?( genesis 22)



Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.”
‭‭James‬ ‭2:14-24, 26‬ ‭KJV‬‬

rather than just looking at one verse if we consider what point James is making what do you see there ? The verse I quoted is o my James repetetive conclusion but what point do you see him making regarding faith ?

to really understand Paul’s point bout Abraham’s actions and what God told him we have to look at the story and events in Abrahams life the point both paul and James are making are right there in Abraham’s story

“And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be. And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭15:5-6‬ ‭KJV‬‬

after isaac is born

“And it came to pass after these things, that God did test Abraham, and said unto him, Abraham: and he said, Behold, here I am.

And he said, Take now thy son, thine only son Isaac, whom thou lovest, and get thee into the land of Moriah; and offer him there for a burnt offering upon one of the mountains which I will tell thee of.

…And Abraham stretched forth his hand, and took the knife to slay his son.

And the angel of the LORD called unto him out of heaven, and said, Abraham, Abraham: and he said, Here am I. And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me.

And the angel of the LORD called unto Abraham out of heaven the second time, and said, By myself have I sworn, saith the LORD, for because thou hast done this thing, and hast not withheld thy son, thine only son: that in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭22:1-2, 10-12, 15-18‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Do you see what I mean ? Then you read Paul or james like this

“Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness. Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.

And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭3:6-9‬ ‭KJV‬‬

both men acknolwedge that God told Abraham a promise and he believed God and God then considered Abraham righteous . James is saying that later Abraham’s obedience with what he did fulfilled that statement he proves to be truly righteous by his work wich fulfilled God sayong he was righteous beforehand

Abraham’s obedience is when the covenant was confirmed is James point it was promised and later because Abraham obeyed God saved Isaac and later provided christ his only begotten to fulfill the promise he made Abraham concerning his seed

It really will benefit readers of Paul to know anrahams story he touches on it often and makes profound points

“For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman. But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise. Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.”….
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭4:22-24‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Again to really get what Paul’s saying we need to know the story of ishmael and isaacs blessing and lives to grasp the allegory

 

[Pilgrimshope]

I agree with what you're saying to some extent. I wouldn't go as far and say those who understand are converted. I feel that is reading more into it than is there.

I suggest there are those who do understand and do believe but refuse to follow Jesus for whatever reason. Like we see here:
39 Therefore they could not believe. For again Isaiah said,

40 “He has blinded their eyes
and hardened their heart,
lest they see with their eyes,
and understand with their heart, and turn,
and I would heal them.”
41 Isaiah said these things because he saw his glory and spoke of him.

42 Nevertheless, many even of the authorities believed in him, but for fear of the Pharisees they did not confess it, so that they would not be put out of the synagogue; 43 for they loved the glory that comes from man more than the glory that comes from God.
God is telling us these men are believers. I've had people tell me these men were saved because they believed. If salvation comes at the moment of belief, then according to that teaching, these men are saved. I can't accept that because applying that logic to these men contradicts Jesus saying He will deny those who deny Him. Being added to Christ requires more than just believing.

“All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him. Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭11:27-29‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.”
‭‭John‬ ‭6:45‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.”
‭‭John‬ ‭5:24‬ ‭

a watch what would happen if we listen to Jesus

“Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; and ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.”
‭‭John‬ ‭8:31-32‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭13:5‬

“Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭7:21‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say? Whosoever cometh to me, and heareth my sayings, and doeth them, I will shew you to whom he is like: he is like a man which built an house, and digged deep, and laid the foundation on a rock: and when the flood arose, the stream beat vehemently upon that house, and could not shake it: for it was founded upon a rock. But he that heareth, and doeth not, is like a man that without a foundation built an house upon the earth; against which the stream did beat vehemently, and immediately it fell; and the ruin of that house was great.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭6:46-49‬ ‭KJV‬‬


what I’m saying is we just have to go to and hear and believe Jesus trust him but when we do we will learn what we’re supposed to believe and what we’re meant to do and how to act and not act ect it’s Jesus and us receiving him that saves but remember This part

“For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.

But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭5:13-14‬ ‭KJV‬‬

 

[turbosixx]

That is not all that complicated. So you take a close look at Romans 3:26 and then go to Romans 4:2-5 (actually the entire chapter):

To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus... For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

So the theme is justification by grace through faith and imputed righteousness, with Abraham as the prime example.

I suggest that is not considering the context. For example, Paul says this How then was it counted to him?

 

[turbosixx]

what I’m saying is we just have to go to and hear and believe Jesus trust him but when we do we will learn what we’re supposed to believe and what we’re meant to do and how to act and not act ect it’s Jesus and us receiving him that saves but remember This part
‬‬

How do we receive Jesus? What verses would you use to support your answer?

 

[Nehemiah6]

I suggest that is not considering the context

Well then you do not understand context. Too bad.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

How do we receive Jesus? What verses would you use to support your answer?

i would just offer what Jesus says here

“And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

He that believeth on him is not condemned:

but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.”
‭‭John‬ ‭3:14-18‬ ‭KJV‬‬

 

[turbosixx]

i would just offer what Jesus says here

“And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

He that believeth on him is not condemned:

but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.”
‭‭John‬ ‭3:14-18‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Absolutely, we are to believe and if we don't, we are condemned. So, are you saying all we have to do is believe and that is receiving Jesus and we are saved? Could you please provide scripture to support that. After believing, is there no response that we must do?

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Absolutely, we are to believe and if we don't, we are condemned. So, are you saying all we have to do is believe and that is receiving Jesus and we are saved? Could you please provide scripture to support that. After believing, is there no response that we must do?

Im saying what oaulmos gettin getting at we have to hear and then believe the gospel that’s how we receive everything the Holy Spirit

“I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by believing what you heard?”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭3:2‬ ‭NIV‬‬

In the gospel Jesus made a promise to send his spirit to believers if we hear and believe that we will receive his spirit

faith means we have to believe what God sent for us to believe which is the gospel

we learn many things by hearing the gospel we hear about baptism for remission of sins in Jesus name …..but do we believe it ? We hear that Jesus is the son of God ? Do we believe it ? We hear that Jesus died for our sins and was raised up and ascended up into the heavens after that but do we believe what the gospel declares ?

All of its true and relevant that’s what I’m saying so when we start to hear Jesus our lord and savior sayong things like this

“I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭13:3‬ ‭NIV‬‬

we need to believe that too because believing that will give us the reason to follow that it’s one of the reasons he came

“unless you repent, you too will all perish.”

“I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭5:32‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.”
‭‭2 Peter‬ ‭3:9‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance? But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; Who will render to every man according to his deeds: to them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: but unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; but glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: for there is no respect of persons with God.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭2:4-11‬ ‭KJV‬‬

what im saying is we don’t hear one thing about Jesus and th en deny the truth of everything else in the gospel it is meant to change our understanding of life but it only works if we believe what we hear in the gospel

Over time the things our lord is teaching us in the gospel start to become wrotten in n our mind and heart become what we think about God too the same things Jesus said our God and salvation become what believers that hear what he said ….think and believe and it changes the course of our life brings righteousness and remits sin

we need to first believe in Jesus then need to hear what he’s preaching and believe that will guide us home and he will never let us go if we do here and follow

He wants our sincere hearts and lives to honor the lord Jesus and his sacrifice by living our lives for him as his disciples always believing and always growing in understanding and practice until we reach maturity though yet imperfect of course but we become stronger in faith over time


Jesus is calling to those who believe the simplicity is to heed the call that we ourselves can hear that’s actually in the lords word he’s also our teacher nd what he’s teaching is life everlasting if we hear and believe because that will bring us to action

“Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.”
‭‭John‬ ‭5:24‬ ‭KJV‬‬

When you say “ just only believe”

Im saying believe what the gospel teaches

 

[turbosixx]

Im saying what oaulmos gettin getting at we have to hear and then believe the gospel that’s how we receive everything the Holy Spirit

“I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by believing what you heard?”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭3:2‬ ‭NIV‬‬

In the gospel Jesus made a promise to send his spirit to believers if we hear and believe that we will receive his spirit

faith means we have to believe what God sent for us to believe which is the gospel

we learn many things by hearing the gospel we hear about baptism for remission of sins in Jesus name …..but do we believe it ? We hear that Jesus is the son of God ? Do we believe it ? We hear that Jesus died for our sins and was raised up and ascended up into the heavens after that but do we believe what the gospel declares ?

All of its true and relevant that’s what I’m saying so when we start to hear Jesus our lord and savior sayong things like this

“I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭13:3‬ ‭NIV‬‬

we need to believe that too because believing that will give us the reason to follow that it’s one of the reasons he came

“unless you repent, you too will all perish.”

“I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭5:32‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.”
‭‭2 Peter‬ ‭3:9‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance? But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; Who will render to every man according to his deeds: to them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: but unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; but glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: for there is no respect of persons with God.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭2:4-11‬ ‭KJV‬‬

what im saying is we don’t hear one thing about Jesus and th en deny the truth of everything else in the gospel it is meant to change our understanding of life but it only works if we believe what we hear in the gospel

Over time the things our lord is teaching us in the gospel start to become wrotten in n our mind and heart become what we think about God too the same things Jesus said our God and salvation become what believers that hear what he said ….think and believe and it changes the course of our life brings righteousness and remits sin

we need to first believe in Jesus then need to hear what he’s preaching and believe that will guide us home and he will never let us go if we do here and follow

He wants our sincere hearts and lives to honor the lord Jesus and his sacrifice by living our lives for him as his disciples always believing and always growing in understanding and practice until we reach maturity though yet imperfect of course but we become stronger in faith over time


Jesus is calling to those who believe the simplicity is to heed the call that we ourselves can hear that’s actually in the lords word he’s also our teacher nd what he’s teaching is life everlasting if we hear and believe because that will bring us to action

“Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.”
‭‭John‬ ‭5:24‬ ‭KJV‬‬

When you say “ just only believe”

Im saying believe what the gospel teaches

I agree with most of what you're saying. The gospel is meant to change our thinking, our hearts and our lives.

What I like to discuss with others is how are we saved. This is the most important question we need to know the correct answer to. Is it just believe or is it believe and then we must do something in response. If we get this wrong, I don't see how we are saved.

I suggest that before Jesus's sacrifice, His teaching was looking forward to the establishment of His church. After His sacrifice, He sends the apostles out to preach the gospel to add people to His church that He just purchased with His blood. Today, we are saved by the gospel.
Rom. 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

So, when Jesus sends out the apostles to preach the gospel, what instructions does He give them concerning adding people to His church?

 

[Nehemiah6]

Is it just believe or is it believe and then we must do something in response.

The answer is already in Scripture (Acts 20:21): Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[Kroogz]

@JimmyTheLock.

You do know that reformed theology really doesn't believe this right? When it comes down to the nitty gritty of it all, reformed theology believes what arminian theology believes when it comes to eternal security. Reformed theology just words it a little different. Reformed theology say's it believes in eternal security, but it really doesn't. And I am not talking about a specific individual calvinist, I am talking about the theology. I was in a reformed church for a long while.

Here's the nitty gritty of it: What if a believer lives in sin? What if a believer has no works/fruits? What if there are no signs of the new creature?

Ready?

Reformed theology~~ They were not really saved.

Arminian theology~~ They will lose salvation.

Just worded different. But both are not biblical.

Again, I am not talking about a specific individual, I am talking about the theology. I am sure there are individuals in reformed churches that have a true grasp on eternal security. GRACE.[/QUOTE]