He will render to each one according to his works

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Sharp

Senior Member
May 5, 2009
2,565
20
38
#1
Romans 2:6-8

He will render to each one according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; but for those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, there will be wrath and fury.


Questions

1. Was Paul talking to/about Jews only in this passage?
2. How does this relate to grace by faith (Eph 2:8) and does it even need to?
3. Is this reinforcing 1 John, in that people who claim to know Him should walk in the light?
4. Is it talking about differing levels of rewards for christians in heaven?


:)
 
Nov 12, 2009
354
2
0
#2
Titus 2:7 (New International Version)

7In everything set them an example by doing what is good. In your teaching show integrity, seriousness

Matthew 5:16 (New International Version)

16In the same way, let your light shine before men, that they may see your good deeds and praise your Father in heaven.

2 Corinthians 5:10 (New International Version)

10For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive what is due him for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad.

Psalm 49:8 (New International Version)


8 the ransom for a life is costly,
no payment is ever enough-
amen to that*my own reply


Romans 3:20 (New International Version)

20Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin.

Isaiah 64:6 (New International Version)


6 All of us have become like one who is unclean,
and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags;
we all shrivel up like a leaf,
and like the wind our sins sweep us away.

Ephesians 2:8-9 (New International Version)

8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9not by works, so that no one can boast.


I believe "works" are defined as acts for Christ...when we see a homeless person or a person in need for that matter, who is to say it isn't Christ? When we do good deeds, we store up treasures in heaven.

Matthew 6:19-20 (New International Version)


Treasures in Heaven

19"Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy, and where thieves break in and steal. 20But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where moth and rust do not destroy, and where thieves do not break in and steal.
 
O

oopsies

Guest
#3
Some people will quote you the Parable of the Talents. But I would say that it is better to cross of #4 and simply do your part in carrying out the Great Commission.
 

Sharp

Senior Member
May 5, 2009
2,565
20
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#4
hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
 
O

oopsies

Guest
#5
You have to understand that at the time, the church in Rome was wrought with arguments between Jewish believers and Roman (gentile) believers. Each side was accusing the other side of being unrighteous and Paul wrote this letter to address some of the concerns. The verse you quoted is in a section where Paul is instructing the Christians to remember that God judges all - no one is righteous.

Look at it this way: the things people do are a mirror to ourselves. So when you do pass judgment on another, remember Psalm 139:23-24, "Search me, O God, and know my heart; test me and know my anxious thoughts. See if there is any offensive way in me, and lead me in the way everlasting."

Pass judgment but then repent for your own sin and use it as a lesson for yourself as much as for the other person.

I confess, I did not really go into reading the verse when you first presented it. You can cross off #2 as well and I just answered #1 in a roundabout way. He was talking to both the Jews and the Romans but the Bible is timeless - it is a lesson for ourselves as well.

I also feel that you can cross of #3 as well (however, keep in mind that #3 is really a summary of the passage as a whole and in fact, the entire Book of Romans). The verse you quoted seems to read more about the "law" (the law as Jesus). So one who hears the "law" and then believes the "law" (that is, Jesus) is given a reward of eternal life. Those who hear the "law" but do not write the "law" upon their hearts, is therefore their own law. If they are their own law, then they are unrighteous in God's eyes. This is the passage people quote (or rather, verse 14) to explain lawlessness and unrighteousness for unbelievers. Believers hold to a higher law but non-believers make up their own laws as they go along. When you think about it, it's actually true. As believers, our conviction comes from God but for non-believers, the only law they follow is the law of the land. Even so, if they disagree with the law of the land, they will do their own thing. Look at something as simple and innocent as pirated music downloads. Non-believers can make the claim that they are taking from the rich or that they are helping the poor artists with free marketing or even find equivalent loopholes with other media (such as photocopying of textbooks, fair-use, etc.). But for Christians, we hold to a higher law. The Holy Spirit convicts us - no matter how one looks at it, even if a believer disagrees with the MPAA's practice of robbing artists of their hard-earned money, the Holy Spirit convicts. Stealing is stealing. I have yet to see a Christian not squirm in their seat when told this straight up. Even Christian teens feel convicted; they may ignore the conviction but they know deep down that they've just been convicted.

Ok, I guess I went overboard... I summarized the entire passage instead LOL

Just take this rule of thumb: God uses the humble to do His work. The humbler you are, the better. Look at Moses - God loved Moses because Moses was very humble. That doesn't mean you can't correct other Christians but when you do, remember that you may have done the same thing you are correcting in another. After you remember, correct yourself as well.
 

Sharp

Senior Member
May 5, 2009
2,565
20
38
#6
thanks for the detalied response !
 
C

charisenexcelcis

Guest
#7
Some people will quote you the Parable of the Talents. But I would say that it is better to cross of #4 and simply do your part in carrying out the Great Commission.
I've always looke at the parable of the talents as being about responsibility rather than reward.
 
O

oopsies

Guest
#8
I've always looke at the parable of the talents as being about responsibility rather than reward.
I looked at it as punishment but some believe that it doesn't apply to the church - only those who come during the tribulation (a pre-trib rapture view).
 

Sharp

Senior Member
May 5, 2009
2,565
20
38
#9
I think I've found the answer.

No-one can achieve what verse 7 describes – patience in well-doing, seeking for glory, honour, immortality (see Romans 3:11). If someone could achieve it, they would earn eternal life. But all are in the second category – self-seeking, disobedient, unrighteous. Therefore all need salvation.
 

pickles

Senior Member
Apr 20, 2009
14,479
182
63
#10
Romans 2:6-8

He will render to each one according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; but for those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, there will be wrath and fury.


Questions

1. Was Paul talking to/about Jews only in this passage?
2. How does this relate to grace by faith (Eph 2:8) and does it even need to?
3. Is this reinforcing 1 John, in that people who claim to know Him should walk in the light?
4. Is it talking about differing levels of rewards for christians in heaven?


:)
The interesting word here to me is render. You see render as I understand is to sparate, remove, take from. One example is, I save all bacon fat, then every month or so I render the fat, separate that wich is usable from that which is not. Then once the fat has been rendered I put it up for when it is needed.
So consider how render applies here?:)
God bless, pickles
 
C

charisenexcelcis

Guest
#11
The interesting word here to me is render. You see render as I understand is to sparate, remove, take from. One example is, I save all bacon fat, then every month or so I render the fat, separate that wich is usable from that which is not. Then once the fat has been rendered I put it up for when it is needed.
So consider how render applies here?:)
God bless, pickles
" Now if any man builds upon the foundation with gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay, straw, each man's work will become evident; for the day will show it, because it is revealed with fire; and the fire itself will test of what sort each man's work is. If any man's work which he has built wupon it remains he shall recieve a reward. If any man's work is burned up, he shall suffer loss; but he himself shall be saved, yet so as through fire." I Corinthians 3:12-15.
This is how I see the rendering process.
 
May 21, 2009
3,955
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#12
Being rewarded doesn't mean we have to wait to be rewarded in heaven. God rewards here on earth. He wants to bless his people. We will all reap what we sow whether saved or unsaved.
 

phil36

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2009
8,260
2,111
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#13
Hi Sharp here is something I have written before.

Contradiction: Paul and James!


uestion: Do Paul and James contradict each other?

Paul: Justified by faith alone.

James: Justified by works .

Answer: In order to answer this question we have to look at what each author is saying in context. This seemingly problematic contradiction comes from the use of ‘Abraham’s Justification’ by both Paul and James in their text.


  • Paul: Romans 4:2-3 “For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness.”
  • James: James 2:21 “ Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up his son Isaac on the altar?”

Reading these two verses side by side gives the impression that James was at odds with Paul. Paul explicitly states that Abraham was justified by faith and James just as emphatically says Abraham was justified by works. In the book of James, The author is talking about ‘works of faith’ in other words ‘works that show faith’. James is not talking about works that will save you, but proving your faith to the world. God knows you have faith but the only way (humanly speaking) that we can tell is by works of faith or as John would say, ‘fruit of the spirit’.



On the other hand Paul is talking about works that save. No matter how hard you try or do wondrous works, it will not save you. What Paul is saying, is that, following the law in every aspect was not the key to salvation; faith was.



What seems to cause confusion is the use by both authors of the story of Abraham. This is not a problem if you carefully read which portions of Abraham’s life both Paul and James are talking about. Paul points out, through his example of Abraham, that faith came first and was given credit, for after all, Abraham was counted as righteous before Moses saw the light of day little alone receive the law! Thus it can NOT be following the bare moral code that leads to salvation.



In contrast, James says not a word about circumcision or following the written code. He speaks of application as a result of a living faith, after conversion. Nor does he use Abraham’s following of the “law” as proof of his righteousness: He points to his validating actions that proved his faith in God.



Paul and James both use Abraham, they are answering different questions – and their answers are in harmony with scripture.

  • Paul’s perspective: He was viewing the guilty sinner who needed to be right with God (The sinner is in view).
  • James’ perspective: He was viewing the believer (or professing believer) who needed to demonstrate that his faith was real (The believer is in view).
 

phil36

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2009
8,260
2,111
113
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#14
To answer question 1, read on a couple of verses. as this section is part of the 'all are condemned for sin' Rom 1:18 - 3:20.

phil
 

Sharp

Senior Member
May 5, 2009
2,565
20
38
#15
Thanks Phil

This passage is bothering me again, after thinking I had the answer a few weeks ago.

As you said Phil, this passage is in the "All are sinners" part of Romans, which is why I'm thinking when the passage says those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor.... it means no-one. No-one seeks for glory and honour since all are sinners and in the second category (self-seeking, etc...).

But is there anything in the context to suggest it is in fact hypothetical? OR is it really saying that those who are saved will produce good works, and will therefore inherit eternal life?
 
Feb 9, 2010
2,486
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#16
Romans 2:6-8,says it all,that God will judge all people according to their works on earth.

Obey the truth,live unto righteousness,eternal life.

Disobey the truth,live unrighteous,not eternal life.


11For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
13Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
14If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 15If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire(1 Corinthians 3:11-15).

All the saints works will be judged,and some will suffer loss,because their works did not build upon the foundation properly,but they will be saved from the fire.Their works shall be burned that did not build upon the foundation properly,but the person will be saved.

Matt
 
Jan 8, 2009
7,576
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0
#17
11For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
Paul is talking about building the right doctrine on the foundation. The right foundation is preaching Jesus Christ and Him crucified.

1Co 3:10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.


In context with the chapter where Paul is addressing the carnality of the corinthians in them following this worker or that worker of God (eg Paul, Apollos etc)

12Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
gold, silver , precious stones - true and sound doctrines. These are apostolic doctrines.

wood, hay, stubble - false doctrines. All non-apostolic doctrines.


Those who build their doctrines upon anyone except the true foundation Jesus Christ... such as Benny Hinn, Apollos, Paul, Calvin, Wesley, Pope JP2, your local church pastor, whoever... will suffer loss. These will be people whose doctrines are Jesus + Calvin, Jesus + Benny Hinn, Jesus + the Pope.


13Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
The Day of Christ - this is the Day of the Lord when the earth will burn up in fervent heat because of God's judgement. The sound doctrines , gold, silver , stones, built upon the foundation will survive intact. The false doctrines will not.


14If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 15If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire(1 Corinthians 3:11-15).
Reward is given according to labour.

Rev 22:12And,behold,Icomequickly;andmyrewardiswithme,togiveevery manaccordingashisworkshallbe.

1Co 3:8 There is no difference between the one who plants and the one who waters; God will reward each one according to the work each has done.

suffer loss - he shall be humiliated and reprimanded for building false doctrines and traditions of man upon the foundation.


Because those who do not build upon apostolic foundations will suffer loss... this is why it is important for every christian to seek out biblical and apostolic christianity. How terrible to have built upon Christ the doctrines of a modern day preacher (yes even some going back 500 years) who got it wrong and is so far from apostolic doctrine.

Paul is telling them to take care, don't follow Apollos or Paul they are merely the workers and could get it wrong, be careful how you build - take care in what you believe to be true and who you listen to, in case you build upon the foundation with hay and straw instead of material that can handle the fire.






 
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karuna

Guest
#18
1. Was Paul talking to/about Jews only in this passage?
I don't think there's any ambiguity in his intention, if we continue reading:

[He] will render to every man according to his deeds: <...> Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile. For there is no respect of persons with God.
He continues on, saying that being a Jew for his purposes is not so much a matter of being circumcised or being called a Jew, but:

he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.
So, one of the major points of the beginning of the book is that "being a Jew" in the earthly sense doesn't put one in a special category as it concerns the criteria of salvation.

2. How does this relate to grace by faith (Eph 2:8) and does it even need to?
If we continue reading through verse 10:

For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith - and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God - not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.
The opportunities for good works were prepared for us in advance by God, without whom we wouldn't have the ability or inclination to do the things Paul is talking about in Romans. These are the external manifestation of God's grace, a sure sign by which he chooses to judge us. For instance, in Matthew 25:31-46, the criterion by which we're judged isn't faith but the charitable works we did.

But this doesn't mean works save us - we are not saved by works we engineered ourselves. We are not saved by works that God did through us. In the judgment, however, God references our works because they are a convenient manifestation of the grace we have been given.

It's a lot like an earthly judge. Is the criminal going to prison because he left fingerprints on the murder weapon? No, he's going to prison because we believe he killed someone. The fingerprints, however, are the convenient manifestation of the thing he's actually being judged for.

3. Is this reinforcing 1 John, in that people who claim to know Him should walk in the light?
I think so.

If anyone claims, “I am living in the light,” but hates his brother, that person is still living in darkness.
The bar is pretty high.

4. Is it talking about differing levels of rewards for christians in heaven?
I don't think so. One group receives eternal life. The other, by implication, does not. I don't imagine that one wing of heaven can be called eternal life while another area is the wrath bin.
 
1

1still_waters

Guest
#19
Paul is building up to the statement he will make in Romans 3:23

23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. 25God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement

1. Was Paul talking to/about Jews only in this passage?
2. How does this relate to grace by faith (Eph 2:8) and does it even need to?
3. Is this reinforcing 1 John, in that people who claim to know Him should walk in the light?
4. Is it talking about differing levels of rewards for christians in heaven?
No he wasn't talking to Jews only. This relates to grace and faith because he's building up to the main argument in romans 3:23 that NONE are righteous. This isn't really relating to 1 John directly. It's not talking about differing rewards for Christians.

If you isolate "He will render to each one according to his works:" from romans 3:23, which says non are righteous, then one can be confused.

Paul's main point is that everyone is guilty of sin, so if they were judged according to their works, they'd be in for a world of hurt!

For example. If I was trying to build up to the fact that it takes a floatation device for a rock or a brick to float, I might argue this way.

A brick can't float.
A rock can't float.
A rock and brick can only float with the help of a floatation device.

Now if someone isolated the statement "a brick can't float", then asked "is he saying a brick can't even with a floatation device?" we might ask them to read a few lines down!

It's the same with this verse you point out in romans. You just need to read a few lines down. :D
 
L

lighthousejohn

Guest
#20
The interesting word here to me is render. You see render as I understand is to sparate, remove, take from. One example is, I save all bacon fat, then every month or so I render the fat, separate that wich is usable from that which is not. Then once the fat has been rendered I put it up for when it is needed.
So consider how render applies here?:)
God bless, pickles
Pickles,

The following is a list of the word render which I copied from an online dictionary:

to render (third-person singular simple present renders, present participle rendering, simple past and past participle rendered)
  1. (transitive) To cause to become. The shot rendered her immobile.
  2. (transitive) To interpret, give an interpretation or rendition of. The pianist rendered the Beethoven sonata beautifully.
    • 1748. David Hume. Enquiries concerning the human understanding and concerning the principles of moral. London: Oxford University Press, 1973. § 34.
    we may, at last, render our philosophy like that of Epictetus
  3. (transitive) To translate into another language
  4. (transitive) To pass down. render a verdict (= deliver a judgment)
  5. (transitive) To make over as a return. They had to render the estate.
  6. (transitive) To give; to give back. render aid render money
  7. (transitive, computer graphics) To transform digital information in the form received from a repository into a display on a computer screen, or for other presentation to the user. rendering images
  8. (transitive) To capture and turn over to another country secretly.
  9. (transitive) To convert waste animal tissue into a usable byproduct. rendering of fat into soap
  10. (intransitive), (cooking) For fat to drip off meat from cooking. Bacon is very fatty when raw, however most of that will render during cooking.
I believe #6 is the correct use in this particular instance. Your idea does raise an interesting thought of what God does with what we have done. Not how He uses it but how He converts it for us.

In Christ,
John