Heaven and hell

[Magenta]

The lost perish and are no more. They go to their death, not eternally tortured and tormented forever. Hell is the grave.

Matt 7:13
Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it.

Matthew 10:28
Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Luke 13:3
I tell you, no, but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish.
Here, the Greek word for perish is apoleisthe, which means to utterly destroy, kill, slay, demolish, make void.

Jesus says that the end for the unrighteous will be the same as for those in the days of Noah (Luke 17:27), "the flood came and destroyed them all" (not tortured). And it will be the same as for Sodom (verse 29) "destroyed them" (not tortured).

John 3:16
For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
So a person either receives eternal life, or they perish. Nothing about eternal torment there.

John 5:24, Jesus said
"Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life."

Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Note: Death, not eternal torment.

1 Corinthians 3:17
If any man destroys the temple of God, God will destroy him, for the temple of God is holy, and that is what you are.
Destroy, not torture alive forever.

Galations 6:8
For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption (phthoran), but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.
phthoran: From phtheiro; decay, i.e. Ruin (spontaneous or inflicted, literally or figuratively) -- corruption, destroy, perish.
The one who sows to his own flesh reaps destruction, not eternal living torment.

2 Thessalonians 1:9
These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,
Destruction, not eternal living torment. The greek word is olethron: destruction.
From a primary ollumi (to destroy; a prolonged form); ruination, i.e. Death, punishment -- destruction.

Hebrews 10:39
But we are not of those who shrink back to destruction, but of those who have faith to the preserving of the soul.

James 1:15b
and when sin is accomplished, it brings forth death.

James 4:12a
There is only one Lawgiver and Judge, the One who is able to save and to destroy;

2 Peter 3:7
But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.
All ungodly men will perish unless they repent.

1 John 5:12
He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life.
If you are not alive you cannot be tormented!

Jude 5
Now I desire to remind you, though you know all things once for all, that the Lord, after saving a people out of the land of Egypt, subsequently destroyed those who did not believe.

Revelation 2:11b
He who overcomes will not be hurt by the second death.
The living and the dead will be judged on the last day. Those in Christ will not experience the second death. Those not in Christ will experience a second death. This second death is their destruction.

Revelation 17:8
The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to come up out of the abyss and go to destruction.

Revelation 20:14-15
Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
John interprets this for us: the lake of fire is the second death. If anyone's name is not in the book of life, he experiences the second death. This is exactly what it says, death.

Revelation 21:8
“But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”
They will undergo the second death, which means they are dead.

After the first sin, what was the promised consequence? God said that it was death. God didn't tell them that they would be given eternal life being tormented in hell. If eternal torture in hell is the consequence, it is jarringly missing from any statement by God to Adam and Eve. God even barred Adam and Eve from the garden to prevent them eating from the tree of life and living forever in their state of sin. Paul explains this: Romans 6:23, The wages of sin is death. This is obvious, Paul said what the wages of sin is and it is not to be burned alive forever after you are dead.

Ezekiel 18:4
The soul who sins will die.

Psalm 1:4-6
Not so the wicked!
They are like chaff
that the wind blows away.
Therefore the wicked will not stand in the judgment,
nor sinners in the assembly of the righteous.
For the LORD watches over the way of the righteous,
but the way of the wicked leads to destruction.

Psalm 9:5
You have rebuked the nations and destroyed the wicked;
you have blotted out their name for ever and ever.

Psalm 9:6
even the memory of them has perished.

Psalm 34:16
but the face of the LORD is against those who do evil,
to blot out their name from the earth.

Psalm 37:9
For those who are evil will be destroyed,

Psalm 37:20
But the wicked will perish:

Psalm 37:22
those he curses will be destroyed

Psalm 37:28b
Wrongdoers will be completely destroyed

Psalm 37:34
when the wicked are destroyed, you will see it.

Psalm 37:38
But all sinners will be destroyed;
there will be no future for the wicked.

Ecclesiastes 9:5
the dead know nothing

 

[Ahwatukee]

Too many people seem to be taken in by the lies of Satan to believe that a merciful just and loving God could or would torture for an eternity those who refuse His offer of life through the propitiatory sacrifice of His Son, Jesus Christ. Those who refuse Him are destroyed in the second death, and Scripture bears this out over and over again in a multitude places.

Here is a good page on it all (I am not Christadelphian)

http://www.bereanchristadelphian.com/FirstPrn/hell.htm

Hi Magenta,

Something that you have to understand is that, after a person dies without receiving Christ, this is where God's mercy ends. It is not extended to the unrighteous dead. Regarding scripture showing that people are destroyed, as in being annihilated in the lake of fire, this is false. Nowhere does scripture infer that people are annihilated, but just the opposite. Consider the following:

"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

Now, just as with the scripture above, the word "aiónios" which is derived from "Aion" both being defined as meaning a cycle of time, an age or can also mean having no beginning and no ending (eternal). Here is an example of Aion as meaning eternal:

"Then the angel I had seen standing on the sea and on the land raised his right hand to heaven. And he swore by him who lives for ever and ever, who created the heavens and all that is in them, the earth and all that is in it, and the sea and all that is in it,"

Now, because the context is demonstrating that the angel is swearing by God, then the word "aion" cannot not be referring to only a cycle of time or even an age and that because we know that God's existence has no beginning or ending (eternal). Likewise, an example of this word being used to refer to an age or cycle of time is demonstrated in the following:

"And again they shouted: “Hallelujah! The smoke from her goes up for ever and ever."

The verse above is in reaction to the destruction of Mystery Babylon, which demonstrates that the word "aion" here is being used to represent an age or a cycle of time and that because, after the end of the thousand years, this present heaven and earth depart and a new heaven and new earth are created and since that city, the woman who rides the beast, resides on this earth, then the smoke of her torment will cease when this present heaven and earth has passed away and therefore, the meaning is not time unending.

Now getting back to the following:

"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

In the verse above, you have the same word (Aionios) describing the eternal state of both the righteous and the unrighteous. That being said, the meaning must be the same for both. We know that eternal life for believers refers to unending life. Likewise, Eternal punishment must also mean unending punishment. You can't have one mean complete annihilation and the other meaning on-going life. The meaning of "eternal" then must mean the same for both. Here is another example of eternal for those who worship the beast and receive his mark:

"If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives his mark on their forehead or on their hand, they, too, will drink the wine of God’s fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. They will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever. There will be no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and his image, or for anyone who receives the mark of his name.

Regarding the scripture above, the words "the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever (aion and aion) combined with the words "no rest day or night" would infer unending, conscious awareness in torment. For one could not be tormented for ever and ever and have no rest day or night if one is annihilated, that is, non-existent. The words "no rest" means, no cessation, no intermission in the midst of being tormented. Regardless of our personal feelings regarding this, scripture demonstrates that the lake of fire is a place of on-going, conscious awareness in torment in flame. Furthermore, the words destroy or destruction is not defined as annihilation.

Yes, God is a God of love, but that love does not negate his righteous justice. For those who die in their sins, God's mercy no longer exists for them, but pure judgment without mixture.

 

[p_rehbein]

Seems to me it should be:

HEAVEN OR HELL

As this is the most important choice every person must make in their life!

(just saying)

 

[Magenta]

Hi Magenta,

"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

In the verse above, you have the same word (Aionios) describing the eternal state of both the righteous and the unrighteous. That being said, the meaning must be the same for both. We know that eternal life for believers refers to unending life. Likewise, Eternal punishment must also mean unending punishment. You can't have one mean complete annihilation and the other meaning on-going life. The meaning of "eternal" then must mean the same for both.

Hello Ahwatukee

Of course I agree the word means the same thing: eternal. However that in no way translates to eternal torture or torment. I am not sure how you think it does, quite honestly. Once a person is dead from the second death in the lake of fire, is is eternal ever after. There is no coming back from it. That does not make it eternal torture though. There is a plethora of Scripture to support my view of death and destruction (the wages of sin is death!), and maybe two Scriptures to support yours, one of which is a parable, and the other from Revelation, not a good book to take one line from regarding Satan and his minions to build a doctrine that makes God out to be a sadistic monster toward humans.

The greek word is from the primary ollumi ἀπόλλυμι (to destroy utterly, kill, slay; to perish; abolish etc); ruination, i.e. Death, punishment -- destruction. You cannot square your view with the fact that eternal life is granted only to those who accept the propitiatory sacrifice of Jesus Christ. Eternal life is in Him, not so He can torture and torment those who rejected Him. No! My God, perish the thought. He came to give us life, and more abundantly. I will not be moved to accept this monster that people peddle in the name of justice, as if death were not punishment enough.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Hello Ahwatukee

Of course I agree the word means the same thing: eternal. However that in no way translates to eternal torture or torment. I am not sure how you think it does, quite honestly. Once a person is dead from the second death in the lake of fire, is is eternal ever after. There is no coming back from it. That does not make it eternal torture though. There is a plethora of Scripture to support my view of death and destruction (the wages of sin is death!), and maybe two Scriptures to support yours, one of which is a parable, and the other from Revelation, not a good book to take one line from regarding Satan and his minions to build a doctrine that makes God out to be a sadistic monster toward humans.

The greek word is from the primary ollumi ἀπόλλυμι (to destroy utterly, kill, slay; to perish; abolish etc); ruination, i.e. Death, punishment -- destruction. You cannot square your view with the fact that eternal life is granted only to those who accept the propitiatory sacrifice of Jesus Christ. Eternal life is in Him, not so He can torture and torment those who rejected Him. No! My God, perish the thought. He came to give us life, and more abundantly. I will not be moved to accept this monster that people peddle in the name of justice, as if death were not punishment enough.

Magenta, the very word "torment" requires conscious, awareness of the tormentee, for one cannot experience torment if one is non-existent. The word "basanismos" translated "torment" is defined as torture, the act of tormenting, vexation.

Did you not read the words that I provided "No rest, day or night?" Those words alone could not possibly infer annihilation, but require for the one being tormented that they must be conscious in order to experience no rest from the torture. That aside, it wouldn't be much of a righteous judgment if Satan, his angels and all of the unrighteous were just annihilated in one moment. Also, the words "eternal fire" would make no sense and that because no one would be existing to endure the torment eternally. There wouldn't even be a reason to keep the lake of fire going if that was the case. I would advise you to do a full study of this subject, as I have many times, of all the words in the context and cross-reference scriptures with other scriptures regarding the same subject. I have yet to find any scripture that would demonstrate complete annihilation of those being thrown into the lake of fire. But on the contrary, according to scripture they will experience on-going, conscious, awareness in torment in flame. Now, I am not looking forward to people being punished in any way, but I am zealous for the truth of God's word for the sake of the truth.

And what about Hades? The spirit/soul of the rich man was taken there, which is a place of torment in flame and which he himself mentions (Luke 16:19-31) and will remain there along with everyone else until the end of the thousand years, in torment. They are not annihilated and are shown to be resurrected out of Hades at the end of the thousand years, only to be thrown into the lake of fire.

 

[Magenta]

Magenta, the very word "torment" requires conscious, awareness of the tormentee, for one cannot experience torment if one is non-existent. The word "basanismos" translated "torment" is defined as torture, the act of tormenting, vexation.

Did you not read the words that I provided "No rest, day or night?" Those words alone could not possibly infer annihilation, but require for the one being tormented that they must be conscious in order to experience no rest from the torture. That aside, it wouldn't be much of a righteous judgment if Satan, his angels and all of the unrighteous were just annihilated in one moment. Also, the words "eternal fire" would make no sense and that because no one would be existing to endure the torment eternally. There wouldn't even be a reason to keep the lake of fire going if that was the case. I would advise you to do a full study of this subject, as I have many times, of all the words in the context and cross-reference scriptures with other scriptures regarding the same subject. I have yet to find any scripture that would demonstrate complete annihilation of those being thrown into the lake of fire. But on the contrary, according to scripture they will experience on-going, conscious, awareness in torment in flame. Now, I am not looking forward to people being punished in any way, but I am zealous for the truth of God's word for the sake of the truth.

And what about Hades? The spirit/soul of the rich man was taken there, which is a place of torment in flame and which he himself mentions (Luke 16:19-31) and will remain there along with everyone else until the end of the thousand years, in torment. They are not annihilated and are shown to be resurrected out of Hades at the end of the thousand years, only to be thrown into the lake of fire.

The parable, one parable, yes, I mentioned that as well, not a good source for doctrine, and eternal fire you explained yourself eternal does not always mean forever after; it is only until God's purposes are accomplished. The devil and his angels could very well be the source of any truly eternal smoke and hellish lake of fire torment. Two instances hardly outweigh by any stretch of the imagination the plentitude of Scriptures I gave to support my view. You cannot tell me that eternal life is given only to those who accept Jesus Christ and then turn around and say, oh yeah, eternal life also for those who reject Jesus Christ BUT their life is one of torture and torment because God is so loving merciful and just. I just can't buy into that, and I am sorry but I am late for my evening meeting, God bless you Awatukkee!

 

[Budman]

No heaven? That's just silly.

Satan in charge in hell? Even more ridiculous. Satan and his demons are terrified of hell. They know it for what it is - a place of eternal punishment - for them, and for all who reject Christ.

 

[Ahwatukee]

The parable, one parable, yes, I mentioned that as well, not a good source for doctrine, and eternal fire you explained yourself eternal does not always mean forever after; it is only until God's purposes are accomplished. The devil and his angels could very well be the source of any truly eternal smoke and hellish lake of fire torment. Two instances hardly outweigh by any stretch of the imagination the plentitude of Scriptures I gave to support my view. You cannot tell me that eternal life is given only to those who accept Jesus Christ and then turn around and say, oh yeah, eternal life also for those who reject Jesus Christ BUT their life is one of torture and torment because God is so loving merciful and just. I just can't buy into that, and I am sorry but I am late for my evening meeting, God bless you Awatukkee!

Hi Magenta,

Please provide the scriptures that you are referring to which demonstrate complete annihilation in the lake of fire. By the way, Jesus gave us the event of the rich man and Lazarus for the very purpose of demonstrating that there is such a place of torment. Also, the event of the rich man and Lazarus is not a parable as some proclaim, for parables always have the symbolic representing the literal, e.g. Wheat = son's of the kingdom, field = world, seed = the word, harvesters = the angels, the harvest = end of the age, etc., etc. In the event of the rich man and Lazarus we don't see symbolism, but real people are being named, Abraham, Lazarus, the rich man, his brothers, Moses and the prophets, as well as the real location of Hades. Jesus is conveying an event that he witnessed prior to his appearing in the flesh.

You cannot tell me that eternal life is given only to those who accept Jesus Christ and then turn around and say, oh yeah, eternal life also for those who reject Jesus Christ BUT their life is one of torture and torment because God is so loving merciful and just.

I did not say that there was eternal life for those who reject Christ. I said that the same word "Aionios" translated "Eternal" is used to describe the state of both those who go to eternal life and those who go to eternal punishment. Therefore, because the same word is being used, then that state of existence must be true for both parties, ergo, since eternal life means never ending life for the righteous, then eternal punishment must mean the same thing , that is, never ending punishment. Also as I said, once a person dies rejecting his Son, God's mercy ends. There is no mercy at judgment!

But, you are of course free to believe what you have proclaimed, but I am just trying to demonstrate the truth regarding this subject.

 

[bikerchaz]

(I'm making unscriptured statements since there's no apparent concern for quoting text to prove ones statements).

That's odd because the Bible states that heaven is where God resides, and Jesus is there with all saints who've died and been taken there.



That's odd, the Bible states that when he died he went to the lowest part of the earth.. that he descended and then ascended.

I wouldn't say that satan is ruling supreme in hell. Jesus has the keys to death, hell and the grave. To me that means that Jesus was in hell. We know for sure (by Biblical text) that he was buried in a tomb, not a 6ft grave.



It seems that you expect some lively responses.

Oh yes I do expect some lively responses, Praise Him!
Yes my statements are without reference, because, people are too much into their own methodology when it comes to belief, "If it is comfortable it must be good" or "I can live with that" are phrases I have heard, and "I have my own way to God, Thank you!".
Firstly your statement; "That's odd because the Bible states that heaven is where God resides, and Jesus is there with all saints who've died and been taken there." the first part is correct God does live in heaven and Jesus is at his side, at His right hand ETC, but I made no biblical reference with my statements and you have said that "the bible states" if you are going to say this then please use references. You will find there are no references to "All saints who have died being taken there".
Yes Jesus did enter hell when he died, but there wasn't old nick with a pitchfork, that is my point. Gehenna is where all the rubbish from Jerusalem was placed and burnt. It was always alight and smoking so references to it abound in our Lords teachings because He used a lot of figurative speech. But death is the real Hell Jesus said he had the power to lay his life down and take it up again John 10 v 18 and the "keys of death and hades" Rev 1 v 18 were His to use as He saw fit because God has given Him "Authority" Mat 28 v 18.
But you are the first person ever to tell me that the grave does not include a tomb, A grave by definition is where a dead body is put as a final resting place.

 

[bikerchaz]

So Jesus lied?

Lu 11:2 And he said unto them, When ye pray, say, Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven, so in earth.

And.

Mr 9:45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:

Jesus said I go to prepare a place for you.

Joh 14:2 In my Father’s house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
Joh 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

Don't know what kind of "Christian" you believe yourself to be but I'm going to be with Jesus and that will be heaven for me.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

No Jesus did not lie,
Firstly, "Lu 11:2 And he said unto them, When ye pray, say, Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven, so in earth." Jesus always taught that the kingdom of heaven was something to be grasped, something to live within you, then His will will be done in you as it is in heaven. I have no doubt that Gods will reigns supreme in the heaven where He resides with the risen Christ at His right hand.
Secondly, to maim yourself for eternal life is a wise choice if it is your only choice, but that is for "Life" and up to now only death and the grave have been discussed with any thought. "Life "in its self does not mean Heaven.
Thirdly, There is room for everyone in Gods kingdom, it doesn't matter where you come from what you are, Jew ,Gentile, Greek, Arab, male or female, or from the moon there is room for you in Gods house, but it is Gods house and His will be done. And then He will return "come again" but I thought He was already there and we were going to Him, NO the bible, Gods word, Jesus made flesh does not say that!!! He said He would come again and receive us to himself. Jesus mentions the "resurrection" quite a few times and it is mentioned over 40 times in the new testament. May I ask you What resurrection? why a resurrection? If I am nice and cosy with God in heaven why would I want to be resurrected, why would I leave the safe haven of Gods presence to come back down here with all the rubbish and detritus of what's left of creation?
And lastly, your thought of me, I do not care, I forgive you entirely for any animosity. I will pray that the father of my Lord Jesus Christ who died on the cross and rose again to be the first fruits, of those who slept. Will equip you with His Holt Spirit and give you the wisdom and understanding as He has promised. All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will receive from me what he will make known to you.” John 15 v 16

 

[fredoheaven]

The lost perish and are no more. They go to their death, not eternally tortured and tormented forever. Hell is the grave.

Hi,

Hell is not grave your honor in the following scriptures:

Mat 5:22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger ofhell fire.

Mar 9:43 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger ofhell fire.

Mar 9:45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:

Mar 9:47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:

God bless,

 

[bikerchaz]

I also have several concordances and biblical reference books stacked up. These days I hardly use them except to find the occasional reference. Using the original Greek Aramaic or Hebrew words is good for an in depth study, which isn't quite what I had in mind, very reminiscent of part my life before I met with Jesus face to face. The upshot of all this is to quicken the Spirit that resides within us, The holy spirit that resides here on earth within the souls of those He has called to be His own. An understanding of the biblical elements of the resurrection and Jesus second coming are essential to knowing Him more fully and the purpose He has with His elect.
I used to call myself a Christadelphian, Now I am Jesus's. I belong to no church but His, Although I will break bread with anyone who professes to know Him.
Magenta You make the Spirit within me jump for joy, and Ahwatukee, you also make the Spirit sing. Being a former bible student and knowing all the Greek and Hebrew words and texts within strongs concordance and others, I have now come to know that such understanding has its place, but the Spirit always has the final word because it is God when all said and done.
I know that separation from God scares the bleepers out of me and it is only me that I can account for in the end. "Many are called and few are chosen" used to frighten me silly, the Christadelphians still say they are right and everyone else is wrong and I was force fed this, with long words and enough bamboozling studies to frighten the most ardent scholar.
It is simply this Love the Lord your God with all you heart and strength and mind, and your neighbour as yourself. Study and read His word daily and let His spirit touch you where you need it, but in all this understand His message and the resurrection is a big part of this.

 

[fredoheaven]

The parable, one parable, yes, I mentioned that as well, not a good source for doctrine, and eternal fire you explained yourself eternal does not always mean forever after; it is only until God's purposes are accomplished. The devil and his angels could very well be the source of any truly eternal smoke and hellish lake of fire torment. Two instances hardly outweigh by any stretch of the imagination the plentitude of Scriptures I gave to support my view. You cannot tell me that eternal life is given only to those who accept Jesus Christ and then turn around and say, oh yeah, eternal life also for those who reject Jesus Christ BUT their life is one of torture and torment because God is so loving merciful and just. I just can't buy into that, and I am sorry but I am late for my evening meeting, God bless you Awatukkee!

Hi,

I fail to see any parable in Luke 16. Here is the scripture for consideration:
Luk 16:1 And he said also unto his disciples, There was a certain rich man, which had a steward; and the same was accused unto him that he had wasted his goods.

Thanks,

 

[Magenta]

Hi Magenta,

Please provide the scriptures that you are referring to which demonstrate complete annihilation in the lake of fire.

I gave plenty of Scriptures, at least thirty, by far more than you gave with your one parable and a reference to what happens to that old dragon and the false prophet in Rev. Did you not read them? Did you just summarily dismiss them all? Please look at them again. Please consider that the second death means just that: death. Death is an end. Death does not mean they are alive to be tormented and tortured. Eternal life is found only in Jesus Christ. Your view is nonsensical. Destroyed means just that. Perish? The same. They pass completely out of existence. Why would you take it to mean anything other than what Scripture states over and over and over and over and over and over again, beginning right in Genesis? You shall surely die, God said, not, I will torture you forever. And the dead know nothing, again, affirmed multiple times throughout Scripture. Honestly, you have to ignore an awful lot of Scripture to hold to your view. I do understand that many people do. It is truly a sad situation that so many believe that justice entails eternal torture and torment. You make God out to be a sadistic monster. Nowhere in Scripture is it stated that man's soul is eternal aside from through accepting the propitiatory sacrifice of Christ on our behalf. It is ridiculous to say that eternal life is given also to those who reject Him so He can torture them forever.

By the way, Jesus gave us the event of the rich man and Lazarus for the very purpose of demonstrating that there is such a place of torment.

That is pure conjecture on your part.

Also, the event of the rich man and Lazarus is not a parable as some proclaim, for parables always have the symbolic representing the literal, e.g. Wheat = son's of the kingdom, field = world, seed = the word, harvesters = the angels, the harvest = end of the age, etc., etc. In the event of the rich man and Lazarus we don't see symbolism, but real people are being named, Abraham, Lazarus, the rich man, his brothers, Moses and the prophets, as well as the real location of Hades. Jesus is conveying an event that he witnessed prior to his appearing in the flesh.

You choose not to see it as a parable when it was given in a string of such... that is your choice. The dead know nothing, Scripture states this a number of times also, I gave some to show that, you must have ignored them too.

I did not say that there was eternal life for those who reject Christ. I said that the same word "Aionios" translated "Eternal" is used to describe the state of both those who go to eternal life and those who go to eternal punishment. Therefore, because the same word is being used, then that state of existence must be true for both parties, ergo, since eternal life means never ending life for the righteous, then eternal punishment must mean the same thing , that is, never ending punishment. Also as I said, once a person dies rejecting his Son, God's mercy ends. There is no mercy at judgment!

I wonder why you do not or cannot see that death ever after is eternal, a punishment everlasting. You contradict yourself, too. First you say they have to be alive to suffer, now you say that is not what you mean. The second death is eternal ever after. It is not so difficult a concept to wrap your head around.

But, you are of course free to believe what you have proclaimed, but I am just trying to demonstrate the truth regarding this subject.

No, you are trying to demonstrate what you believe to be the truth. There is a difference. We shall just have to agree to disagree on this.

 

[Willie-T]

We ARE aware, are we not, that "Hell" and eternal torment did not exist in the OT? This notion came back from Egypt with the return of the exiles after many generations (almost 500 years) of pagan indoctrination. The Ancient Jews seem to have believed in annihilation.

 

[Magenta]

I used to call myself a Christadelphian, Now I am Jesus's. I belong to no church but His, Although I will break bread with anyone who professes to know Him.
Magenta You make the Spirit within me jump for joy, and Ahwatukee, you also make the Spirit sing. Being a former bible student and knowing all the Greek and Hebrew words and texts within strongs concordance and others, I have now come to know that such understanding has its place, but the Spirit always has the final word because it is God when all said and done.
I know that separation from God scares the bleepers out of me and it is only me that I can account for in the end. "Many are called and few are chosen" used to frighten me silly, the Christadelphians still say they are right and everyone else is wrong and I was force fed this, with long words and enough bamboozling studies to frighten the most ardent scholar.
It is simply this Love the Lord your God with all you heart and strength and mind, and your neighbour as yourself. Study and read His word daily and let His spirit touch you where you need it, but in all this understand His message and the resurrection is a big part of this.

Hello bikerchaz, nice to meet you

 

[Ahwatukee]

We ARE aware, are we not, that "Hell" and eternal torment did not exist in the OT? This notion came back from Egypt with the return of the exiles after many generations (almost 500 years) of pagan indoctrination. The Ancient Jews seem to have believed in annihilation.

"Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell."

Regardless of what information the OT saints and prophets were privy to, Jesus and the NT writers makes it very clear that there is eternal punishment. As I keep reminding people, there is nowhere in scripture that alludes to annihilation, not by the words used, nor any passage of scripture. I used the following verse in a previous post as an example:

"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

You have the same word "aionios" translated "eternal" used for both the righteous and the unrighteous in the verse above. Since we know that "eternal life" refers to on-going, never ending life for the righteous, then since the same word is being used to describe the unrighteous, then eternal punishment must be on-going, never ending punishment as well. You can't have one mean on-going life and the other one meaning annihilation, for eternal must mean the same for both.

“If anyone worships the beast and his image and receives his mark on their forehead or on their hand, they, too, will drink the wine of God’s fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. They will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever. There will be no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name.

* God's wrath being poured out full strength, means that there is no mercy mixed in.

* The word "Torment" is defined as "torture/vexation" and requires existence in order for one to experience it

* They shall have no rest day or night, means no cessation, no intermission, from that torment, which again demonstrates the need for the one being tormented to be conscious, aware and existing in order to experience the torment.

Also, the OT saints were not privy to a lot of information that has been revealed in the NT. For example, Paul revealed, among other things, something that was previously unknown, which was the information regarding the living being changed and caught up when the resurrection takes place. The prophets and the OT saints were not privy to this information regarding this event of the living. The book of Revelation, the word meaning "uncovering, revealing (because previous covered)" by its very name demonstrates that it contains information that was previously or partially unknown to the prophets and OT saints. Therefore, we can't base NT scripture on what the OT saints and prophets knew or didn't know.

Regarding eternal punishment in the lake of fire, we should be paying attention to what Jesus and the apostles had to say about it, and they have a lot to say.

 

[bikerchaz]

I am pleased that my second statement has bought so much knowledge to the table. I think we can surmise that there is no devil with a list of eternal chores and a big pitch fork to enforce them, set deep in caverns in an underworld with the light from a thousand furrinesses to read it by.
The point of hell fire is causing thought, and I want to throw this out to see what your responses are. A lake of fire is a scriptural reference and John in Revelation speaks of it as the definite intention of complete destruction, and in Mark 9 v 47 to 49 Jesus talks about the worm that will not die or the fire that isn't quenched, this was also bought up by 'fredoheaven',
There does seem to be a time when these things take place. My point for thought is, Should I find myself (God forbid in Jesus name) in the position of being "cast out" I don't think it would matter to me how long I suffered, the anguish would be unbearable and "gnashing of teeth" would certainly have its place. I think I would feel eaten up inside and in complete horror at what I would have lost, (and even in writing this I am glad of Jesus own prayer John 17 v 9) and being burned alive would seem ineffectual to the torment I would heap upon myself. The world also will know this,those who have not accepted Christ, will not be able to say "I didn't know",or "why did someone not tell me?" because they do see, I know and the Spirit bares witness, that deep down inside everyone is a wick which catches light whenever Jesus is mentioned, to some it burns to anger some to mockery, and some to life. But burn it does and convict it does for the whole of creation was made to Glorify God. And the earth, the pinnacle of all that the Father has created will be filled with the glory of the Lord, "As the waters cover the sea".
So firstly, (getting back to the subject) I would like you not to sit and start typing as soon as you see this, Take some time with the Lord and ask His spirit to make known to you His truth about this matter.
I do have my own theory as to why there would seem to be so much confusion, to me it is simply excommunication from God. When I try and think of that situation my mind rebels and all these writings flow in at once and it does not seem so unclear within my own being that in the end, the real end, "God will be all and in all"

 

[valiant]

There are four words for Hell in the New Testament - Tartaros, Hades, Gehenna and the lake of Fire.

Hades is a temporary situation awaiting the final judgment. Thus the rich man was still awaiting judgment. Gehenna was the word mainly used by Jesus and was based on the idea in Isaiah 66, but that idea had been expanded on and in Jesus' teaching it referred to the final place of punishment prior to the Lake of Fire. We need to beware of being too dogmatic about these things. They are describing the indescribable in human terms..

It is true that Jesus compared eternal punishment with eternal life, but notice that it is punishment, not punishing. (More significant in the Greek). Death is described as a punishment, thus it could simply mean eternal death, that is, the second death. Being eternal could simply indicate that the death was eternal.

It is significant that the only ones thrown alive into the Lake of fire are Satan, the Beast and the false prophet. The remainder are called 'the dead'. This militates against them being conscious when they are thrown in the Lake of fire.

As to the words “If anyone worships the beast and his image and receives his mark on their forehead or on their hand, they, too, will drink the wine of God’s fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. They will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever. Yet they find no rest day or night, those who worship the beast and its image, or anyone who receives the mark of its name.

Here the method of examining prisoners under torture is in mind. They will be examined by torture in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb, but it is only the smoke of their torture which will rise for ever and ever, a sign of what was.

with regard to 'finding no rest day or night' the exact same phrase (in the Greek) is found in Rev 4.8 of the living creatures as they worship God. Thus it does NOT contain the idea of being in a tortured state. Rather it signifies that, like the living creatures they worship continually, but in their case they worship the Beast. And thy do this even in the face of the wrath to come.

 

[Blain]

I also have several concordances and biblical reference books stacked up. These days I hardly use them except to find the occasional reference. Using the original Greek Aramaic or Hebrew words is good for an in depth study, which isn't quite what I had in mind, very reminiscent of part my life before I met with Jesus face to face. The upshot of all this is to quicken the Spirit that resides within us, The holy spirit that resides here on earth within the souls of those He has called to be His own. An understanding of the biblical elements of the resurrection and Jesus second coming are essential to knowing Him more fully and the purpose He has with His elect.
I used to call myself a Christadelphian, Now I am Jesus's. I belong to no church but His, Although I will break bread with anyone who professes to know Him.
Magenta You make the Spirit within me jump for joy, and Ahwatukee, you also make the Spirit sing. Being a former bible student and knowing all the Greek and Hebrew words and texts within strongs concordance and others, I have now come to know that such understanding has its place, but the Spirit always has the final word because it is God when all said and done.
I know that separation from God scares the bleepers out of me and it is only me that I can account for in the end. "Many are called and few are chosen" used to frighten me silly, the Christadelphians still say they are right and everyone else is wrong and I was force fed this, with long words and enough bamboozling studies to frighten the most ardent scholar.
It is simply this Love the Lord your God with all you heart and strength and mind, and your neighbour as yourself. Study and read His word daily and let His spirit touch you where you need it, but in all this understand His message and the resurrection is a big part of this.

Magenta tends to have the same affect on me a lot as well I enjoyed reading your post you seem to have a full understanding about what it means to be a Christian