Hebrews 6:1-6

[Skinski7]

Are you God? Only he can tell how well one is obeying, Your going to judge when Even Jesus said judge not lest ye yourself be judged?

The context of "judge not" is in regards to hypocritical judgement.

In other words it is of little service for a drunk to be contending that one ought not get drunk. FIRST we are to get our own house in order BEFORE we are to contend against the ruin of the houses of others. When our own house is in order we are able to see clearly and are thus able to accurately direct others.

Mat 7:1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.
Mat 7:2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.
Mat 7:3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?
Mat 7:4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?
Mat 7:5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.

I do hope anyone reading this understands that. This "judge not" statement I hear very often, especially from religious people who oppose any notion of salvation being condition upon obedience.

Can one who has faith, and never do a thing the person he CLAIMS to have faith in suggests?

To many people are stuck in the obeying part. and fail to see the faith and love part.

Obedience and love are essential aspects of genuine faith. They cannot be separated. There can be no faith without obedience, likewise there can be no faith without love.

Faith works by love and is obedient to the truth.

God reckons faith itself as righteousness because genuine faith is simply an allusion to the mindset and therefore condition of the heart of one who walks with God. God, in His mercy, is willing to overlook our past rebellion and selfishness and treat us purely on the basis of our present state.

If sinners forsake their evil thoughts and deeds and yield to Jesus Christ then God is willing to grant a fresh start irrespective of past misconduct and rebellion. What a wonderful gift.

 

[mailmandan]

well it depends on what you mean by 'obey the Gospel'. the problem in this discussion is that words are flung around which are ambiguous and cannot therefore be directly answered

True. We obey the gospel by choosing to believe the gospel. Romans 10:16 - But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, "Lord, who has believed our report?" The gospel is a message of grace to be received through faith. The gospel is not a set of rituals to perform, a code of laws to be obeyed or a check list of good works to accomplish as a prerequisite for salvation. The gospel simply sets forth Christ crucified, buried and risen (1 Corinthians 15:1-4) as the Savior of all who believe/trust in His finished work of redemption as the all sufficient means of their salvation (Romans 1:16).

 

[Skinski7]

what is that? if you mean love my neighbour as myself that follows salvation. It results from His work within me. I CANNOT do it truly unless I am already saved.

One cannot do it lest that abide in the Spirit of life in Jesus Christ.

In order to abide in the Spirit of life in Jesus Christ one has to first obey Jesus.

One is not saved apart from obedience. It is through obedience that salvation is wrought.

We are saved by grace through faith. Faith is obedience.

Jesus came to save us from our sins (Mat 1:21) and we are saved from sin by obedience to the truth. Here is proof...

Rom 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
Rom 6:18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

There is no "freedom from sin" apart from "obedience from the heart."

We cannot serve two masters. We are either set free from sin unto the service of righteousness, or we continue to serve sin and thus remain in bondage.

Jesus does not save people and then leave them enslaved.

One of the issues we face today is a false perception of salvation. Salvation has been redefined into a purely "positional" application in which one can still be in the service of sin and yet be considered justified by God. It is the same lie of "you can sin and not surely die" repackaged.

 

[SarahM777]

lol.

so that proves you right?

Can you tell what a person does in his heart? you can read minds? so you can judge people by their intentions?

news flash.

works are produced by faith, not the other way around (works do not produce faith) like sea bass, skinski ( I see he drove in) and Jason. are preaching.

What was it that I WAS ADDRESSING EG?

Are you God? Only he can tell how well one is obeying, Your going to judge when Even Jesus said judge not lest ye yourself be judged?

Can one who has faith, and never do a thing the person he CLAIMS to have faith in suggests?

To many people are stuck in the obeying part. and fail to see the faith and love part.

From what you say it's sounds like YOU MINIMIZE the obeying part. Yet Jesus very clear tied LOVING Him to OBEYING Him. He did NOT separate the two.

 

[Elin]

The simple truth is that God saves without the obedience to the letter of the law of Moses.

Don't be so foolish to throw obedience itself out the window.

The Bible teaches very clearly that we are to obey from the heart and that by doing so we are set free from sin. Obey what? Righteousness. In other words we are to DO the right thing from the heart.

The Bible teaches obedience unto salvation, not salvation unto obedience.

Wrong. . .

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Obedience and love are essential aspects of genuine faith. They cannot be separated. There can be no faith without obedience, likewise there can be no faith without love.

Faith works by love and is obedient to the truth.

God reckons faith itself as righteousness because genuine faith is simply an allusion to the mindset and therefore condition of the heart of one who walks with God. God, in His mercy, is willing to overlook our past rebellion and selfishness and treat us purely on the basis of our present state.

If sinners forsake their evil thoughts and deeds and yield to Jesus Christ then God is willing to grant a fresh start irrespective of past misconduct and rebellion. What a wonderful gift.

See here is your problem.

There is no such thing as true faith which does not work. I can not go up to my spouse or my parents, and Say I trust you completely with my life. yet NEVER do a thing they say, for I would be a liar A deciever, and have no truth in me.. I do not trust them, IF I DID, I WOULD LISTEN TO THEM.

Works are not what saves, FAITH SAVES.

TRUE FAITH WORKS.

that is how we can test our own faith as james called us to do. If I say I have faith, Am I working out that faith, or is my faith dead.

When you add works. YOUR TEACHING LEGALISM!

 

[SeaBass]

All are unrighteous (Ro 3:10).

The only righteousness in the sight of God is no guilt of sin because he has forgiven it.

Abel was righteous, Heb 11:4.

God does not reckon righteous those that have never done any righteousness for one cannot be a servant of righteousness when he has never done any righteousness.

 

[Skinski7]

[/COLOR]The gospel simply sets forth Christ crucified, buried and risen (1 Corinthians 15:1-4) as the Savior of all who believe/trust in His finished work of redemption as the all sufficient means of their salvation (Romans 1:16).

The danger here is you are approaching God through this notion of Penal Substitution, a doctrine which was invented by the Reformers 400 years ago.

Thus you have been deceived into believing that the "Finished Work of the Cross" effected a "cancellation of a sin debt owed" through Jesus "paying your sin debt as your substitute." Thus you "trust" in that having taken place.

The truth though is that the blood of Christ is the means by which we can approach God seeking reconciliation through repentance and faith. There was no "payment of a sin debt" made which is why the Bible makes no allusion to such a thing. What Jesus did was purchase YOU with His blood. In order to find reconciliation through that purchase you have to come before God with a true heart in repentance and faith seeking a cleansing of your past sin. This is why Paul associates the cross as something we partake in (see Rom 6:4-7).

Salvation is wrought by the active dynamic of a "working faith" whereby we yield to the leading of God from our heart. It is through allowing God to work within us that our hearts are made pure whereby we can then love one another as required.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

What was it that I WAS ADDRESSING EG?

You was addressing my response to you.

Or actually you were not. it seems my response went right over your head.

From what you say it's sounds like YOU MINIMIZE the obeying part. Yet Jesus very clear tied LOVING Him to OBEYING Him. He did NOT separate the two.

see how you do not read what one says? If you would have read the whole of what I said, and not just the part you ALWAYS focus on, you would never have made such a comment. for you would have answered my question instead. And seen what I sad.

Are you God? Only he can tell how well one is obeying, Your going to judge when Even Jesus said judge not lest ye yourself be judged?

Can one who has faith, and never do a thing the person he CLAIMS to have faith in suggests?

To many people are stuck in the obeying part. and fail to see the faith and love part.

 

[Elin]

The Bible teaches "repentance unto salvation."

And repentance is a gift of God (2Tim 2:25; Ac 11:18, 5:31), not the work of man,
as are faith (Php 1:29; 2Pe 1:1; Ac 18:27; Ro 12:3) and righteousness/justification (Ro 4:17).

The unregenerate are set in sin and cannot obey God (Ro 8:6-8).

God must give it to them or it doesn't happen.

 

[mailmandan]

Abel was righteous, Heb 11:4.

Abel offered a sacrifice "by" (out of) a faith that "he already had" and confirmed his faith by what he did. Cain demonstrated an evil heart by his evil deeds, while Abel demonstrated a righteous heart by his righteous deeds (1 John 3:12); and that Abel offered his sacrifice by faith and Cain did not. His faith was evidenced in obedience to God's requirement for sacrifice by which he obtained witness that he was righteous. That sacrifice did not make his righteous, but through it he was shown to be righteous because of his faith just as believers show their faith by their works (James 2:18). Cain's sacrifice was evidence that his faith was not genuine. Abel's offering proved something about his faith that was not demonstrated by Cain's offering.

God does not reckon righteous those that have never done any righteousness for one cannot be a servant of righteousness when he has never done any righteousness.

One cannot do any righteousness unless he first becomes a servant of righteousness. You have it backwards. Romans 4:5 - But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works: ​

 

[Skinski7]

See here is your problem.

There is no such thing as true faith which does not work.

Did I say otherwise?

Did I not clearly and emphatically state that faith works by love and is obedient to the truth, hence faith works?

I can not go up to my spouse or my parents, and Say I trust you completely with my life. yet NEVER do a thing they say, for I would be a liar A deciever, and have no truth in me.. I do not trust them, IF I DID, I WOULD LISTEN TO THEM.

Did I imply otherwise?

What does that have to do with some "problem" I have?

Works are not what saves, FAITH SAVES.

TRUE FAITH WORKS.

Outward deeds or rote obedience to rules and regulations do not save.

A "working faith" does save because it is the working dynamic whereby we yield to and abide in the grace of God.

that is how we can test our own faith as james called us to do. If I say I have faith, Am I working out that faith, or is my faith dead.

When you add works. YOUR TEACHING LEGALISM!

Legalism?

Obedience from the heart to the doctrine once delivered is legalism?

Obedience to the truth is legalism?

Obedience unto righteousness is legalism?

Following Jesus is legalism?

Forsaking evil is legalism?

No it isn't.

Legalism is thinking that one has to avoid pork or get circumcised in order to be acceptable to God. Don't confuse "works done apart from faith" with a "working faith."

 

[Skinski7]

And repentance is a gift of God (2Tim 2:25; Ac 11:18, 5:31), not the work of man,
as are faith (Php 1:29; 2Pe 1:1; Ac 18:27; Ro 12:3) and righteousness/justification (Ro 4:17).

The unregenerate are set in sin and cannot obey God (Ro 8:6-8).

God must give it to them or it doesn't happen.

Everything we have is a gift of God.

My daily bread is a gift of God, yet that does not negate I have to eat.

Repentance may be a gift but it is not an offset of disability like you believe. One cannot obey God whilst in rebellion because rebellion and obedience are mutually exclusive positions. One has to forsake rebellion in order to be obedient.

This is not rocket science.

Jesus preached repent and believe. Jesus did not say "you can't unless God makes you." Jesus simply said you can do nothing unless we abide in Him, hence we are to heed His command and abide in Him.

Calvinism is a lie. The TULIP is a lie.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Did I say otherwise?

Did I not clearly and emphatically state that faith works by love and is obedient to the truth, hence faith works?

Yeah you do. Because you claim somone can have true faith. do some works. and still not make it to heaven.

Nice try. Your nothing but a modern day pharisee.

Did I imply otherwise?

What does that have to do with some "problem" I have?

Yeah you do. You state a person can love God. Do all these wonderful works for him, Yet have a sin issue and not make it to heaven, because he fell into sin, even though he is doing other works.

Outward deeds or rote obedience to rules and regulations do not save.

A "working faith" does save because it is the working dynamic whereby we yield to and abide in the grace of God.

Faith saves. And since faith works. there is NO QUESTION about whether a person of faith will work or not. It is a guarantee. not a question.

Thats your problem.

Legalism?

Obedience from the heart to the doctrine once delivered is legalism?

Obedience to the truth is legalism?

Obedience unto righteousness is legalism?

Following Jesus is legalism?

Forsaking evil is legalism?

No it isn't.

Legalism is thinking that one has to avoid pork or get circumcised in order to be acceptable to God. Don't confuse "works done apart from faith" with a "working faith."

It is if you do these things to

1. Be saved
2. Not lose salvation.

Which you claim to be true. so yes, it is legalism, it is phariseeism at its peak.

Those who have true faith do not work to be saved or keep their salvation. They are saved, and because of their faith working is a natural byproduct.

Again, it is not a question of if one with true faith will work, it is a guarantee they will work.

 

[valiant]

The simple truth is that God saves without the obedience to the letter of the law of Moses.

Don't be so foolish to throw obedience itself out the window.

if you think I have thrown obedience out of the window you have not read what I said. that is the problem here. people read casually. they do not really read what is said. if you had done so you would not have made such an untrue remark.

The Bible teaches very clearly that we are to obey from the heart and that by doing so we are set free from sin. Obey what? Righteousness. In other words we are to DO the right thing from the heart.

But we are incapable of true righteousness until Christ has done His saving work within us. Our whole being is tainted with sin.
If you mean that by obeying from the heart we receive salvation then you are wrong. We must first receive salvation and then we can obey from the heart. Of course we are to do the right thing from the heart. But that is a consequence of having been saved. Until Christ has wrought salvation within us and upon us we CANNOT obey from the heart. That is what being a sinner means.

The Bible teaches obedience unto salvation, not salvation unto obedience.

The Bible actually teaches BOTH. Initially we cannot obey truly unless we have first been saved (Titus 3.4-7; Eph 2.8-10). As a consequence of having been saved we are accounted as righteous before God (Rom 3.24-25; 4.6; 5.1; 8.1). We are transformed into a new creation (2 Cor 5.17; John 3.1-6). Then and then only can we begin to obey in an acceptable way. We cannot do so whilst we are at enmity with God. We have to put ourselves totally into His hands to be our Saviour.

But once we have been saved in this way (by being freed from the guilt of sin and being made alive in Christ) He begins to work within us producing obedience and guaranteeing that we will finally be delivered from the power and presence of sin. So we have to be saved before we can obey, and our obedience is the consequence of Christ's work within us unto our future salvation.

What many people do it try to mix "obedience unto righteousness" with "not of works of the law" together and thus hold to a position where "doing" is considered legalism.

what you are doing is mixing initial salvation which guarantees that we will be saved, with present salvation which is the working out of our initial salvation, and with future salvation when we will have received the full benefits of salvation. These are indicated in the Greek by the use of the aorist/perfect for initial salvation (something once for all and benefiting us to the present time), the present tense for the present process of salvation, and the future tense for the final fruit of salvation.

Doing in order to obtain salvation is legalism. And it will fail.

What saves a sinner is the implanted Logos within our hearts. A sinner must "receive" the implanted word within and that can ONLY occur if one first repents and thus forsakes the service of evil.

No what saves a sinner is the work of Christ and of the Holy Spirit on our behalf. Without that the word can accomplish nothing. Receiving the word is how we receive it. Repenting and believing is the act of reception. There is no merit in it. It is a consequence of the Holy Spirit working within us. If you think you can avoid the service of evil by your own ability you do not know yourself. Avoiding the service of evil is not a cause of salvation but a consequence of it.

you may not realise it but you are trying to contribute works towards your salvation which is contrary to the Gospel.

In other words one cannot "follow Jesus" if one refuses to stop "following Satan." Thus the adultery, fornication, stealing, lying, cheating, lusting etc. stops BEFORE salvation because salvation is being saved FROM those things.

You are not saved by following Jesus You follow Jesus because you are saved. The sheep did not follow Jesus until He KNEW them personally. He called them because they had been given to Him by the Father. Then they followed Him.

If you look above you will see that the Scripture teaches three aspects of salvation, which you are mixing up. BEFORE we can be delivered from the things that you describe we have to be saved. By trusting on Christ to be our Saviour we are accepted as righteous by God, we are reconciled to Him and we are born from above by the Spirit. We are saved even whilst we have done nothing good.

Then His work begins in our lives sanctifying us and making us holy. We are being saved as consequence of having been saved something which is guaranteed to us because He has saved us.. That is the process during which we abandon the things you describe. But that process FOLLOWS initial salvation.

Jesus saves us FROM our sins, He doesn't save us IN them.

Actually He does both. He saves us from the guilt and power of sin when He initially saves us even though we have our sins in us and we are still up to that moment in sin.. Then He commences the process of saving us from those things that grip us which may take a long time (or sins are still within us). . But it is guaranteed to all who are truly saved.

Let God be thanked that we HAVE obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine once delivered and have therefore been set free FROM sin and made into servants of righteousness. Obedience unto righteousness, righteousness unto holiness, the end of which is everlasting life.

Amen, but it is because we have been saved and have received eternal life in the first place.

It is all so very simple. Just DO what Jesus said to DO.

if you try to do without being saved you will fail. 'There is no one who does good and does not sin'. You are trying to be saved by works (at least outwardly)

 

[SeaBass]

so they were saved because they obeyed Peter?. I can see you are a good Roman Catholic.

They were saved because the Holy Spirit was mightily at work and 'sanctified' them so that they sought Christ, which is the way any true 'conversion' takes place (1 Peter 1.2).

Peter commanded them to repent and be baptized for remission of sins.
emission of sins = salvation so obeying God by repenting and being baptized = saved
They could not be saved by disobeying God.

Acts 2:37 "Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?"

Rom 10:17 says faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God.

Those Jews heard, understood what Peter preached, was pricked in their hearts by those words and asked what must they "DO". [The context says nothing about the Holy Spirit working in them separate and apart from the gospel message preached by Peter.]


Peter did not tell them 'do nothing let ye try to earn your salvation' but commanded them to "DO" obedient works in repenting and submitting to baptism.

Sorry but you are so very wrong. He saves those who come to Him in their desperate plight and unable to do anything about it. So in their ungodly state they call on Him to be their Saviour (Rom 4.5). If they are truly saved obedience will follow.

Heb 9:5 says Christ is the author of salvation unto all them that OBEY HIM and not the author of salvation unto all them that come to Him in a desperate plight and unable to do anything about it. You simply are trying to change/rewrite the bible to make it fit your theology since it does NOT fit your theology as written by the inspired Hebrew writer.

True, but they cannot make themselves godly. If they are to be saved it is Christ Who transforms them so that they become godly once they have put their trust in Him (Ephes 2.8-10)

I never said they can make themselves godly by themselves but they must work God's righteousness to be godly.

Tts 2:12 "Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;"

Grace teaches one must live godly, godliness is how a person lives, acts.

This contradicts all that you have said.



Yes I can see you are a good Roman Catholic. According to Rom 4.5 He accounts them as righteous while they are still ungodly. At the same time He works a new creative work in them which produces in them a desire to be godly (2 Cor 5.17; John 3.1-7). So YES He justifies them simply as a consequence of them putting their trust in Jesus Christ to be their Saviour.

What you posted here contradict Rom 4:5 for that verse does not say God justifies the ungodly WHILE THEY ARE STILL UNGODLY. Again, you are caught changing/rewriting scripture to force it to fit your theology. You are attempting to try to find a way to make the ungodly justified while the ungodly does nothing...which is not possible.

You must have different Bible from me. My Bible does not speak here of being justified by GOD. James said 'I by my works will show you my faith'. Thus he is speaking about being justified in MEN's eyes.

Rahab was justified in God's eyes when she believed God and showed favour to the men. God saw her faith in Him and it was accounted to her for righteousness. This is demonstrated by the previous description of how Abraham was justified. It was in MEN's eyes that she was justified by her works. To them her words revealed her faith.

Are you denying God justified Rahab? God justifies but He justifies those that obediently obey Him so in that sense James could say works justify for works do have a role in man's justification.

James says Rahab was justified by WORKS.
You say Rahab was justified in God's eyes when she believed Him...

God justified Rahab for her obedient work, she was not justified by men. Men do not have the power to justify/free one from his sins only God can do that.

The ungodly who believe in Jesus Christ and put their trust in Him for salvation are IMMEDIATELY accounted as righteous by God by faith without works (Eph 2.8-9; Rom 3.24; 5.1; 8.1). Their justification is complete, full and permanent.

As a consequence they are born from above by the Spirit of God and become a new creation. Old things pass away and everything becomes new. What they then become shows men that they have been justified by God BY FAITH WITHOUT WORKS (Rom 3.28; Eph 2.8-10; Titus 3.4-7)

Here you post "The ungodly who believe in Jesus Christ and put their trust in Him for salvation are IMMEDIATELY accounted as righteous by God"

Earlier you said "According to Rom 4.5 He accounts them as righteous while they are still ungodly."

So does God account men righteous while they are still ungodly or must men first obey by believing and put trust in God before God accounts them as righteous? You created a contradiction here you must clear up.

James says Rahab was justified by works.

You say 'accounted as righteous by God by faith without works"

Your contradicting the bible again and taking misapplying EPh 2:8-10; Rom 3:24; 5:1; 8:1 in the process.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

if you think I have thrown obedience out of the window you have not read what I said. that is the problem here. people read casually. they do not really read what is said. if you had done so you would not have made such an untrue remark.



But we are incapable of true righteousness until Christ has done His saving work within us. Our whole being is tainted with sin.
If you mean that by obeying from the heart we receive salvation then you are wrong. We must first receive salvation and then we can obey from the heart. Of course we are to do the right thing from the heart. But that is a consequence of having been saved. Until Christ has wrought salvation within us and upon us we CANNOT obey from the heart. That is what being a sinner means.



The Bible actually teaches BOTH. Initially we cannot obey truly unless we have first been saved (Titus 3.4-7; Eph 2.8-10). As a consequence of having been saved we are accounted as righteous before God (Rom 3.24-25; 4.6; 5.1; 8.1). We are transformed into a new creation (2 Cor 5.17; John 3.1-6). Then and then only can we begin to obey in an acceptable way. We cannot do so whilst we are at enmity with God. We have to put ourselves totally into His hands to be our Saviour.

But once we have been saved in this way (by being freed from the guilt of sin and being made alive in Christ) He begins to work within us producing obedience and guaranteeing that we will finally be delivered from the power and presence of sin. So we have to be saved before we can obey, and our obedience is the consequence of Christ's work within us unto our future salvation.



what you are doing is mixing initial salvation which guarantees that we will be saved, with present salvation which is the working out of our initial salvation, and with future salvation when we will have received the full benefits of salvation. These are indicated in the Greek by the use of the aorist/perfect for initial salvation (something once for all and benefiting us to the present time), the present tense for the present process of salvation, and the future tense for the final fruit of salvation.

Doing in order to obtain salvation is legalism. And it will fail.



No what saves a sinner is the work of Christ and of the Holy Spirit on our behalf. Without that the word can accomplish nothing. Receiving the word is how we receive it. Repenting and believing is the act of reception. There is no merit in it. It is a consequence of the Holy Spirit working within us. If you think you can avoid the service of evil by your own ability you do not know yourself. Avoiding the service of evil is not a cause of salvation but a consequence of it.

you may not realise it but you are trying to contribute works towards your salvation which is contrary to the Gospel.



You are not saved by following Jesus You follow Jesus because you are saved. The sheep did not follow Jesus until He KNEW them personally. He called them because they had been given to Him by the Father. Then they followed Him.

If you look above you will see that the Scripture teaches three aspects of salvation, which you are mixing up. BEFORE we can be delivered from the things that you describe we have to be saved. By trusting on Christ to be our Saviour we are accepted as righteous by God, we are reconciled to Him and we are born from above by the Spirit. We are saved even whilst we have done nothing good.

Then His work begins in our lives sanctifying us and making us holy. We are being saved as consequence of having been saved something which is guaranteed to us because He has saved us.. That is the process during which we abandon the things you describe. But that process FOLLOWS initial salvation.




Actually He does both. He saves us from the guilt and power of sin when He initially saves us even though we have our sins in us and we are still up to that moment in sin.. Then He commences the process of saving us from those things that grip us which may take a long time (or sins are still within us). . But it is guaranteed to all who are truly saved.



Amen, but it is because we have been saved and have received eternal life in the first place.



if you try to do without being saved you will fail. 'There is no one who does good and does not sin'. You are trying to be saved by works (at least outwardly)

thats their problem.

we teach faith alone, and teach faith WILL WORK (they go hand in hand) yet we are seen as false teachers.

they teach faith plus works. yet claim that person can still rot in hell. and claim they do not teach works.

 

[mailmandan]

The danger here is you are approaching God through this notion of Penal Substitution, a doctrine which was invented by the Reformers 400 years ago.

I believe the Bible and not your "Roman Catholic Reformers 400 years ago" sales pitch. Romans 4:4 - But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works: *Crystal clear. Philippians 3:9 - and be found in Him, not having my own righteousness, which is from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith. *Also crystal clear. Through faith in Christ, we are accounted as righteous.

Thus you have been deceived into believing that the "Finished Work of the Cross" effected a "cancellation of a sin debt owed" through Jesus "paying your sin debt as your substitute." Thus you "trust" in that having taken place.

I have not been deceived. My faith is in Christ and is not self righteously in works. Romans 3:24 - being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, 26 to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

The truth though is that the blood of Christ is the means by which we can approach God seeking reconciliation through repentance and faith. There was no "payment of a sin debt" made which is why the Bible makes no allusion to such a thing. What Jesus did was purchase YOU with His blood. In order to find reconciliation through that purchase you have to come before God with a true heart in repentance and faith seeking a cleansing of your past sin. This is why Paul associates the cross as something we partake in (see Rom 6:4-7).

From reading through your posts in the past, it appears that you are dangerously approaching (or have already embraced) works salvation and sinless perfection.

Salvation is wrought by the active dynamic of a "working faith" whereby we yield to the leading of God from our heart. It is through allowing God to work within us that our hearts are made pure whereby we can then love one another as required.

Salvation is wrought through faith in Christ. Works which follow are the fruit of salvation and not the means of salvation. Once we have been saved through faith and have become new creations in Christ and have received the love of God in our hearts by the Holy Spirit who was given to us, God can now work in us both to will and to do for His good pleasure BECAUSE we are saved and not to become saved.

 

[Skinski7]

It is if you do these things to

1. Be saved
2. Not lose salvation.

Which you claim to be true. so yes, it is legalism, it is phariseeism at its peak.

Those who have true faith do not work to be saved or keep their salvation. They are saved, and because of their faith working is a natural byproduct.

Again, it is not a question of if one with true faith will work, it is a guarantee they will work.

Your issue is with me connecting salvation to the condition of the heart. That is the real issue here.

You cannot directly deal with that issue because you your belief in "2. not lose salvation." In your mind salvation simply cannot be lost irrespective of any action taken by one whom is saved. Thus you must, by necessity, disconnect a pure heart from the salvation experience.

Want proof?

Can a genuine Christian engage in pornography and be justified at the same time?

Can you answer that question?

In your mind the "deed" of engaging in evil has nothing to do with salvation. The truth though is that the "deed" of engaging in evil is an outward manifestation of iniquity present in the heart and is thus an evidence of one not being saved from sin.

That is the real issue here. The issue of the heart.

I can scroll through your post history and you don't ever contend for heart purity. Surely such a thing is an anathema to you. Is it not? I challenge you to address the issue of heart purity in your response.

 

[SeaBass]

no faith is not obedience. you do not say to yourself 'now I will exercise faith'. you have faith because you receive the knowledge of Jesus Christ and His saving work and your response is to believe and commit yourself to Jesus Christ for salvation. There is no merit in it. You are simply receiving a welcome gift.

Of course if you are truly saved obedience will follow. But you are not saved because of your obedience. You obey because you have already been saved. Salvation is free and without works because Jesus paid the whole price.

Your problem is that you look at the two ends and fail to see the most important part in the middle, because your church has filled you with incorrect ideas which you read in to what the Bible says..

Men are commanded to believe, so when men develop faith in their heart upon hearing the word, Rom 10:9,17 then men are obeying the command to have faith.

No verse say one is saved while they continue to not obey the gospel (2 Thess 1:8) but then obeys the gospel after they are saved. Again, that is a rewrite of scripture. You would impossibly have one saved while not obeying the gospel, then you have one impossibly saved in unbelief, impenitent, denying Christ lost in his unforgiven sins for obeying the gospel requires one to believe repent confess and be baptized for remission of sins.

John said one that continues to not do righteousness continues to not be of God, 1 Jn 3:10