Hebrews 6:4-6 - not at it seems...

[mailmandan]

I just read through it again. It says the false teachers are the ones doomed...

"But there were also false prophets among the people, even as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Lord who bought them, and bring on themselves swift destruction. And many will follow their destructive ways, because of whom the way of truth will be blasphemed. By covetousness they will exploit you with deceptive words; for a long time their judgment has not been idle, and their destruction does not slumber"

It says "their destruction". Doesn't say anything about destruction of a believer. Emphasis above is on false teachers and false prophets.

Yeah, as a believer you don't want to get sucked into false teachings, getting lost in the shuffle. As the scriptures say.... Ephesians 5:8-11: "For you were once darkness, but now you are light in the Lord. Walk as children of light (for the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness, righteousness, and truth), finding out what is acceptable to the Lord. And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather expose them.

How can God use you if you're following heresies. So pretty important, hence the warning to be aware of it. Nothing about losing salvation though.

Amen! Those who are truly born of God have received a new nature, a divine nature, and they have new and different appetites and desires. They have been transformed from pigs and dogs into sheep. The change is more than just cosmetic, as in 2 Peter 2:20. *These cleaned up on the outside dogs and pigs were never sheep.

Compare 2 Peter 1:4 - "partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption - Strongs #5356 that is in the world through lust with 2 Peter 2:20 - with they escaped the pollutions - Strongs #3356 (different Greek word) of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, yet they are again entangled therein, and overcome. *Notice that 2 Peter 2:20 did not mention them being "partakers of the divine nature.

Corruption (Strongs #5356) (to shrivel or wither, spoil , ruin , deprave, corrupt , defile, to destroy by means of corrupting, to spoil as does milk). Corruption - describes decomposition or rotting of an organism and the accompanying stench. The utter depravity of the fallen flesh and the resultant moral decomposition of the world opposed to God is driven by it sinful lusts or evil desires. Internal corruption.

Pollutions/Defilements (Strongs #3393) ("pollutions", "filthy things", "contaminations", "world's filth") describes the state of being tainted or stained by evil and refers to impurity, impure, tainted, defilement, foulness or pollution.

Pollutions/Defilement refers to what is on the outside (2 Peter 2:20). But genuine believers have escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust (2 Peter 1:4).

*Corruption is deeper than pollutions/defilements on the outside: it is decay on the inside.

Having the knowledge of Jesus Christ does not save a person if there is no heart submission to that knowledge. The latter end is worse than the beginning for these men because rejecting this knowledge will make them more accountable at the judgment.

 

[JohnTalmid]

The ten commandments are the Law of Moses. I do agree that the true law of God is not the law of Moses which has 613 things in it - including the 10 commandments.

The keeping of the law of Moses including the 10 - does not make one righteous. Christ alone does that.


Did you answer this question?

Let me ask you a question. Is it a sin for a gentile Christian to not observe the Sabbath day as in the law of Moses? Do they not obey the Lord if they don't observe the Sabbath as in the law of Moses?

I want to understand this correctly.

The ten utterances are of YHWH and so are all 613 commandments.. The law of Moses as stated by scripture are the additions to the Instruction of YHWH that was nailed to the cross. So if a person tries to keep the law of Moses he must do it all. Do as the seat of Moses commands not as they do. Unless your rightousness accedes that of the Pher... So in keeping Torah of YHWH Elohim without the law of Moses as a guide they place their trust in Messiah and provoke Judah to jealously for Messiah. Confirmation of the Instruction of YHWH is doing it. To answer your question again Yes by not keeping Sabbath they are missing the mark. Not that Messiah can't save them. This is repentance to agree with Elohim and meet Him on His appointed times.

 

[Grace777x70]

The ten utterances are of YHWH and so are all 613 commandments.. The law of Moses as stated by scripture are the additions to the Instruction of YHWH that was nailed to the cross. So if a person tries to keep the law of Moses he must do it all. Do as the seat of Moses commands not as they do. Unless your rightousness accedes that of the Pher... So in keeping Torah of YHWH Elohim without the law of Moses as a guide they place their trust in Messiah and provoke Judah to jealously for Messiah. Confirmation of the Instruction of YHWH is doing it. To answer your question again Yes by not keeping Sabbath they are missing the mark. Not that Messiah can't save them. This is repentance to agree with Elohim and meet Him on His appointed times.

So, in your religion - let's say that there is a Christian that goes to church on sunday or any other day but doesn't observe the Sabbath as in the law of Moses. They do this all their life - when they die do they go to hell or go to be with the Lord?

 

[dcontroversal]

Amen! Those who are truly born of God have received a new nature, a divine nature, and they have new and different appetites and desires. They have been transformed from pigs and dogs into sheep. The change is more than just cosmetic, as in 2 Peter 2:20. *These cleaned up on the outside dogs and pigs were never sheep.

Compare 2 Peter 1:4 - "partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption - Strongs #5356 that is in the world through lust with 2 Peter 2:20 - with they escaped the pollutions - Strongs #3356 (different Greek word) of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, yet they are again entangled therein, and overcome. *Notice that 2 Peter 2:20 did not mention them being "partakers of the divine nature.

Corruption (Strongs #5356) (to shrivel or wither, spoil , ruin , deprave, corrupt , defile, to destroy by means of corrupting, to spoil as does milk). Corruption - describes decomposition or rotting of an organism and the accompanying stench. The utter depravity of the fallen flesh and the resultant moral decomposition of the world opposed to God is driven by it sinful lusts or evil desires. Internal corruption.

Pollutions/Defilements (Strongs #3393) ("pollutions", "filthy things", "contaminations", "world's filth") describes the state of being tainted or stained by evil and refers to impurity, impure, tainted, defilement, foulness or pollution.

Pollutions/Defilement refers to what is on the outside (2 Peter 2:20). But genuine believers have escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust (2 Peter 1:4).

*Corruption is deeper than pollutions/defilements on the outside: it is decay on the inside.

Having the knowledge of Jesus Christ does not save a person if there is no heart submission to that knowledge. The latter end is worse than the beginning for these men because rejecting this knowledge will make them more accountable at the judgment.

I would agree, but add....the whole premise is indicative or a way of life...obviously David was saved, yet committed murder and took another man's wife......Abraham was deceptive about his wife....Noah got rip roaring drunk....Peter denied the Lord....etc.....ALL genuine believers have that new nature that is spiritual, sealed etc.....and for sure will seek to do those things that are right and correct, but we still have the ability to fail and end up with the "pigs" for a while "prodigal son" yet we will eventually return and get right or be taken home........IMV

 

[JohnTalmid]

So, in your religion - let's say that there is a Christian that goes to church on sunday or any other day but doesn't observe the Sabbath as in the law of Moses. They do this all their life - when they die do they go to hell or go to be with the Lord?

Dear children in the religion of the Torah of the spirit in Messiah we all have one Elohim and are all wrong so what does it matter. I shall show you what matters. I forgive you for striking my cheeks. You have made it like I have judged you. I don't judge you or even myself. If I did I would be judged a sinner. By Grace in Messiah I obey out of love. When I fail and am bitten by the thorns of the world I look up to my example and teacher. He heals my winds and brings joy to my heart. He gives us rest and his Mercy's are renewed each morning. On the Holy gathering of YHWH Elohim s Sabbath night the Spirit of Messiah Yeshua brings Peace. He renews the very spirit of ourselves somehow if we trust in him. This peace allows me to forgive in fact it urges me to do so in the most beautiful way. The tantrums are not truly amusing and they are not necessary. What is necessary is that you continue to be zealous for Messiah. My heart rejoices when you preach the cross for example. Which is beneficial. Messiah crucified and buried and raised to proof that He is the Holy One who is blameless and sinless, beyond reproach. This is the image of the man I desire to become and the image the Instruction of YHWH Elohim the Father has brought on occasion to my heart and mind thorough loving obedience, because we have been redeemed. What the Father desires is that we worship Him in Spirit and in Truth. Yeshua leads to the Father and the Kingdom. The Kingdom has laws and seasons and in His House there is no condemnation there is order. If you judge by outward means you are being foolish and these are times of war against the spiritual things. Why attack me I may be empowered by the Holy Spirit and if I am lead by the Spirit something may happen to you who mock. I don't want anything to happen to you or want you to go to Hell. Neither does Yeshua my Master.

 

[JohnTalmid]

Good night and good morning may Yeshua Messiah bless you with Peace.

 

[Grace777x70]

Dear children in the religion of the Torah of the spirit in Messiah we all have one Elohim and are all wrong so what does it matter. I shall show you what matters. I forgive you for striking my cheeks. You have made it like I have judged you. I don't judge you or even myself. If I did I would be judged a sinner. By Grace in Messiah I obey out of love. When I fail and am bitten by the thorns of the world I look up to my example and teacher. He heals my winds and brings joy to my heart. He gives us rest and his Mercy's are renewed each morning. On the Holy gathering of YHWH Elohim s Sabbath night the Spirit of Messiah Yeshua brings Peace. He renews the very spirit of ourselves somehow if we trust in him. This peace allows me to forgive in fact it urges me to do so in the most beautiful way. The tantrums are not truly amusing and they are not necessary. What is necessary is that you continue to be zealous for Messiah. My heart rejoices when you preach the cross for example. Which is beneficial. Messiah crucified and buried and raised to proof that He is the Holy One who is blameless and sinless, beyond reproach. This is the image of the man I desire to become and the image the Instruction of YHWH Elohim the Father has brought on occasion to my heart and mind thorough loving obedience, because we have been redeemed. What the Father desires is that we worship Him in Spirit and in Truth. Yeshua leads to the Father and the Kingdom. The Kingdom has laws and seasons and in His House there is no condemnation there is order. If you judge by outward means you are being foolish and these are times of war against the spiritual things. Why attack me I may be empowered by the Holy Spirit and if I am lead by the Spirit something may happen to you who mock. I don't want anything to happen to you or want you to go to Hell. Neither does Yeshua my Master.

No one is attacking you. Just asking questions to see what you believe and then we can line it up with scripture concerning the keeping of the Law of Moses and the Sabbath day as in the Old Covenant way.

You still haven't answered the question. Here it is again.

So, in your religion - let's say that there is a Christian that goes to church on sunday or any other day but doesn't observe the Sabbath as in the law of Moses. They do this all their life - when they die - do they go to hell or go to be with the Lord?

 

[mailmandan]

I would agree, but add....the whole premise is indicative or a way of life...obviously David was saved, yet committed murder and took another man's wife......Abraham was deceptive about his wife....Noah got rip roaring drunk....Peter denied the Lord....etc.....ALL genuine believers have that new nature that is spiritual, sealed etc.....and for sure will seek to do those things that are right and correct, but we still have the ability to fail and end up with the "pigs" for a while "prodigal son" yet we will eventually return and get right or be taken home........IMV

Proverbs 24:16 - For a righteous man may fall seven times and rise again, but the wicked shall fall by calamity.

 

[JohnTalmid]

No one is attacking you. Just asking questions to see what you believe and then we can line it up with scripture concerning the keeping of the Law of Moses and the Sabbath day as in the Old Covenant way.

You still haven't answered the question. Here it is again.

So, in your religion - let's say that there is a Christian that goes to church on sunday or any other day but doesn't observe the Sabbath as in the law of Moses. They do this all their life - when they die - do they go to hell or go to be with the Lord?

I did answer your question friend. I said yes they are sinning and I can't say if they go to Hell because it was created for the angels that fell and not man. Please read my post again

 

[Grace777x70]

I did answer your question friend. I said yes they are sinning and I can't say if they go to Hell because it was created for the angels that fell and not man. Please read my post again

I certainly hope you do not fall under this category below my friend but it is not looking good:

Question: "Who were the Judaizers?"

Answer: There have always been those who balk at the idea of God’s salvation being offered freely to those who believe. They reason that such a grand gift as forgiveness from such a holy God must require some kind of payment from us. We thank God for His grace, but we understand that He expects us to somehow earn that grace—in other words, there must be something that we can do to pay off the debt we owe to God.

In the early church, those who taught a combination of God’s grace and human effort were called “Judaizers.” The word Judaizer comes from a Greek verb meaning “to live according to Jewish customs.” The word appears in Galatians 2:14 where Paul describes how he confronted Peter for forcing Gentile Christians to “Judaize.”

A Judaizer taught that, in order for a Christian to truly be right with God, he must conform to the Mosaic Law. Circumcision, especially, was promoted as necessary for salvation. Gentiles had to become Jewish proselytes first, and then they could come to Christ.

The doctrine of the Judaizers was a mixture of grace (through Christ) and works (through the keeping of the Law). This false doctrine was dealt with in Acts 15 and strongly condemned in the book of Galatians.

At the Jerusalem Council in Acts 15, a group of Judaizers opposed Paul and Barnabas. Some men who belonged to the party of the Pharisees insisted that Gentiles could not be saved unless they were first circumcised and obeyed the Law of Moses.

Paul made the case that, in Christ, there was no longer any distinction between Jew and Gentile, for God had purified the hearts of the Gentiles by faith (Acts 15:8–9). He said it plainly in Galatians 2:16: “A man is not justified by observing the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by observing the law, because by observing the law no one will be justified.”

To add anything to the work that Christ did for salvation is to negate God’s grace. We are saved by grace alone, through faith alone, not by returning to the Law. “I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing” (Galatians 2:21).

There are many groups today with beliefs/practices very similar to the Judaizers of the New Testament. The two most prominent would be the Hebrew Roots Movement and the Roman Catholic Church.

The teachings of the Hebrew Roots Movement are virtually identical to those of the Judaizers whom Paul rebuked in Galatians. A primary focus of the Hebrew Roots Movement is to put followers of Christ back under the bondage of the Old Testament Law.

The Roman Catholic Church teaches a doctrine similar to that of the Judaizers of the New Testament in this way: its doctrine is a mixture of law and grace. At the Council of Trent in the 16th century, the Catholic Church explicitly denied the idea of salvation by faith alone.

Catholics have always held that certain sacraments are necessary for salvation. The issues for the 1st-century Judaizers were circumcision and Sabbath-keeping.

The issues for modern-day Catholics are baptism, confession, etc. The works considered necessary may have changed, but both Judaizers and Catholics attempt to merit God’s grace through the performance of ritualistic acts.

First Timothy 4:3 says that, in later times, false teachers will “forbid people to marry and order them to abstain from certain foods, which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and who know the truth.”

This sounds suspiciously close to some of the teachings of Roman Catholicism, which requires priests to be celibate (“forbidding to marry”) and proclaims some food to be off-limits during Lent (“abstaining from certain foods”).

The Judaizers upheld the Mosaic Law as necessary for salvation; Catholics uphold man-made tradition as necessary; both view Christ’s death as being insufficient without the active and continued cooperation of the one being saved.

The Bible is clear that the attempt to add human works to God’s grace overlooks the very meaning of grace, which is “undeserved blessing.” As Paul says, “If by grace, then it cannot be based on works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace” (Romans 11:6). Praise the Lord, “Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery” (Galatians 5:1).

https://gotquestions.org/Judaizers.html


I do not look at all Hebrew Roots adherents as all the same. As I have said before - there are many that are of authentic Jewish descent and they like their traditions but they do not say that others need to observe the Sabbath or feasts as in the law of Moses or you are dis-obeying God and sinning. They observe these things to see Christ as the fulfillment of them - not as something they "need" to do now.

This group has excellent teaching son how Christ has fulfilled the Law and show Christ in every part of the Old Testament. Jesus said that all the scriptures speak about Him.

This group of believers are a major blessing to us in the body of Christ and are not Judaizers such as Paul encountered and that are also in the extreme sects of Hebrew Roots that say believers in Christ must "observe the Sabbath and the feasts like in the law of Moses - or they are dis-obeying God and sinning".

Those - run away from as fast as you can! - but do not put all Hebrew Roots people in the same boat as the extreme sects because they are not the same.

 

[JohnTalmid]

I don't say you need to keep Sabbath in order to be saved I'm saying if you don't you are sinning. If when coming to know of Messiah we don't turn to Elohim and follow His ways out of Love we are not saved or born again. My works of the Instruction of righteousness do not lead me to be more right it leads me to understand redemption and the testimony against the Instruction today is that I can't gain salvation through it? Duh...

 

[JohnTalmid]

Again you hinted at the law of Moses being tradition but you clumped it together with the Torah of Elohim. This is a small deception that should be addressed.

 

[JohnTalmid]

No one is attacking you. Just asking questions to see what you believe and then we can line it up with scripture concerning the keeping of the Law of Moses and the Sabbath day as in the Old Covenant way.

You still haven't answered the question. Here it is again.

So, in your religion - let's say that there is a Christian that goes to church on sunday or any other day but doesn't observe the Sabbath as in the law of Moses. They do this all their life - when they die - do they go to hell or go to be with the Lord?

I can't judge the hearts of each believer to answer whether they go on to be with the Lord, I can say that is the hope. Heb 4:2
For we also received the good news, just as they did; but the message they heard was of no value to them, since they did not share the faith of those who comprehended it.

Good News = Instruction/Torah of Elohim

 

[Grace777x70]

Jesus Himself is the word of God. Jesus is the instruction/law of God made flesh.

Following a carnal command from the Old Covenant is not following Christ as He Himself is the substance of the Law of Moses and He alone is the life.

The law including the Sabbath and the feasts were all shadows pointing to Christ Himself. No amount of keeping a certain day such as in the Jewish Sabbath day can replace Christ for life.

If people want to observe a day - they have the liberty in Christ to do so and so do others to not to observe it. They observe Christ Himself as their true Sabbath rest.

For anyone to tell a Christian that they are sinning because they don't observe a certain day such as the Sabbath in the law of Moses - this is Judaizing and it will nullify the very grace of Christ from operating in our lives like it should.

Do not let anyone tell you that you are sinning by not following the Law of Moses in the Sabbath or any feast. It is not from God. We live in the New Covenant and Jesus is the law of God for the true Christian. We live by His life in us now. Everything in the law of Moses is a shadow of the real thing which is Christ Himself.

Do not replace Christ with the carnal keeping of the law of Moses. Living by the law of Moses is committing spiritual adultery on our Lord. Romans 7:1-6

 

[JohnTalmid]

I can also say I who live according to the rightousness of the Instruction of Elohim do trust in the certain hope of redemption to come at the arrival of my master Yeshua Messiah the son of YHWH. When He comes in the twinkling of an eye I hope to be changed into incorruption. Then you will see Him and weep if you are not found walking in truth. What is truth? Your word o YHWH is truth, also man lives by every word that proceeds out of the Father's mouth.

 

[Grace777x70]

Here is truth. If we live by Exodus 32:33 - then we are all blotted out of God's book - because who has not ever sinned?

All context starts and ends with the revelation of the risen Christ Himself. All scripture must be filtered through the finished work of Christ in order to get the context needed when reading all scripture.

Here is a scripture that says that if anyone who has ever sinned against God will be blotted out of the book. This means that all of us have been blotted out of God's book for who has not ever sinned? No one.

Exodus 32:33 (NASB)
[SUP]33 [/SUP] The LORD said to Moses, "Whoever has sinned against Me, I will blot him out of My book.


This is a true statement but it is not the ultimate statement of truth because what Christ did on the cross and resurrection trumps this truth.

Everything in the bible is truly stated but not everything is a statement of ultimate truth. Christ Himself is Truth.

We are as reliant on the Holy Spirit to reveal Christ in the scriptures to us as Mary was reliant on the Holy Spirit to conceive Jesus in her womb.

 

[JohnTalmid]

Jesus Himself is the word of God. Jesus is the instruction/law of God made flesh.

Following a carnal command from the Old Covenant is not following Christ as He Himself is the substance of the Law of Moses and He alone is the life.

The law including the Sabbath and the feasts were all shadows pointing to Christ Himself. No amount of keeping a certain day such as in the Jewish Sabbath day can replace Christ for life.

If people want to observe a day - they have the liberty in Christ to do so and so do others to not to observe it. They observe Christ Himself as their true Sabbath rest.

For anyone to tell a Christian that they are sinning because they don't observe a certain day such as the Sabbath in the law of Moses - this is Judaizing and it will nullify the very grace of Christ from operating in our lives like it should.

Do not let anyone tell you that you are sinning by not following the Law of Moses in the Sabbath or any feast. It is not from God. We live in the New Covenant and Jesus is the law of God for the true Christian. We live by His life in us now. Everything in the law of Moses is a shadow of the real thing which is Christ Himself.

Do not replace Christ with the carnal keeping of the law of Moses. Living by the law of Moses is committing spiritual adultery on our Lord. Romans 7:1-6

View attachment 169151

The law and Sabbath are still a shadow of this thing to come as was the Holy spirit a sign for those in the wilderness as it dwelt in the tent of meeting. So in the first century assembly the Holy spirit sealed the believers and there was preached to them a rest still remanded for them, it was a sign they where Elohim's and He was their Elohim. Why does YHWH give them Sabbath in the desert? To seal them as His just as today. If you are His you will rest as He did. Also if you keep the Mosaic Law,( traditions of men and demons) you can't keep the Sabbath because its purpose is to enslave you. The Torah of liberty is freedom in Messiah. Why won't you test it to see it is good.

 

[JohnTalmid]

Also you have misunderstood Romans 7 for a license to sin. If the law was not sin and sin used the law to cause death why do you still say the law of Elohim is what separate you from grace when it is by grace the condemnation caused by sin was abolished by the Messiah when he raised from death? If you are truly saved in Messiah I mean then the law is filled only with grace, love, hope, mercy, and good for correction and discipline in rightousness.

 

[Grace777x70]

The only true righteousness comes by faith in Christ alone - not in the law of Moses.

Romans 10:1-5 (NASB)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] Brethren, my heart's desire and my prayer to God for them is for their salvation.

[SUP]2 [/SUP] For I testify about them that they have a zeal for God, but not in accordance with knowledge.

[SUP]3 [/SUP] For not knowing about God's righteousness and seeking to establish their own, they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God.

[SUP]4 [/SUP] For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.

[SUP]5 [/SUP] For Moses writes that the man who practices the righteousness which is based on law shall live by that righteousness.


Philippians 3:9 (NASB)
[SUP]9 [/SUP] and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith,

Keeping the Sabbath as in the law of Moses is in reality denying Christ's work and exchanging Him for the carnal keeping of a Law.

Jesus is our true Sabbath rest. Cease from our own works and depend on His works. That is what the Sabbath is all about.

As I have said we are free to observe any day how we like but if someone tells you that you are sinning if you don't follow the law of Moses in observing the Sabbath day outlined in it - run from them.

That is a modern day Judaizer belief system which will nullify the grace of God in your life. It is a perversion of the gospel of the grace of God in Christ.

Paul said that he didn't allow this for even one hour so that the truth of the gospel would remain with the Galatians.

Galatians 2:5 (NASB)
[SUP]5 [/SUP] But we did not yield in subjection to them for even an hour, so that the truth of the gospel would remain with you.

 

[PeterJens]

True righteousness comes by Christ by cleansing us and empowering us to walk righteously.
Only through communion is this possible but those without it wish to justify themselves while
staying in sin.

One believer demonstrated this by picking on someone and bullying them while not realising
this demonstrated what was in their heart.

We are one with Christ. It takes time and a good walk, but it is possible through discipleship
and sanctification. Many appear to deny both this reality or need, while defending the idea
everything is ok just coming to faith. In one sense yes, but in maturity no