Hebrews 6:4-6 - not at it seems...

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Chris1975

Senior Member
Apr 27, 2017
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You completely misinterpret Hebrews 6 as well Jude 1:12.

There is return from apostasy which you refuse to acknowledge even though you have been shown Scripture supporting same.

The Lord Jesus Christ Himself seeks after the one who belongs to Him (Luke 15:4-7). And please note that vss 4 and 5 both indicate that He searches until He finds the lost one. And vs 5 indicates He places the lost one on His shoulders and carries him/her back to the fold.

In the parable of the forgiving father (Luke 15:11-32), the son returned home. The father didn't reject the son and tell him "sorry son. you fell into apostasy and there is no return for you".

Quit insisting that a born again believer, who has Holy Spirit inside of him/her Who is continuously writing the law upon his/her heart and mind, can fall into apostasy from which there is no return. That is a lie from the pit!
The bible says so. I only speak from scripture. Heb 6v4-6 was a believer who fell away. If you are upset, you are upset with scripture, not me.

Your parables above are prefaced with the following:

Luke 15
1 Then all the tax collectors and the sinners drew near to Him to hear Him. [SUP]2 [/SUP]And the Pharisees and scribes complained, saying, “This Man receives sinners and eats with them.” [SUP]3 [/SUP]So He spoke this parable to them, saying:

You see, all of the parables that follow in Luke 15 are referencing the unbeliever becoming a believer. And not a believer who becomes apostate.

That is why we have this suitable introduction.
 

valiant

Senior Member
Mar 22, 2015
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You are born again only once.
Ah a point of agreement.

This is where the spirit comes to life and you are then either led by the spirit or by the flesh.
But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit dwells within you.

Your decision as to whom you serve is made by your inner man (soul)
That is the question.

If you serve the Spirit you live. If you serve the flesh, this leads to death.
This is true, But he who has the Spirit, will serve the Spirit.



Serving the flesh (without repentance) leads to apostasy,
No it leads to death, for you have not the Spirit.
 

valiant

Senior Member
Mar 22, 2015
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The bible says so. I only speak from scripture. Heb 6v4-6 was a believer who fell away. If you are upset, you are upset with scripture, not me.
No it is with your interpretation of Scripture. It was a non-believer who fell away
 
Mar 23, 2016
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Chris1975 said:
You see, all of the parables that follow in Luke 15 are referencing the unbeliever becoming a believer. And not a believer who becomes apostate.
Really?


Luke 15:4 What man of you, having an hundred sheep, if he lose one of them, doth not leave the ninety and nine in the wilderness, and go after that which is lost, until he find it?

All the sheep belong to the shepherd, not just the 99 who remain in the fold. One is lost and the shepherd goes after it until he find it (vs 4). Meaning that the shepherd doesn't give a half-hearted attempt and then give up. The shepherd seeks until he finds, then lays the lost one on his shoulder and carries it back.



Luke 15:8 Either what woman having ten pieces of silver, if she lose one piece, doth not light a candle, and sweep the house, and seek diligently till she find it?

All the coins belong to the woman. The woman seeks diligently until she finds it. Again, not a half-hearted attempt.



Luke 15:11 And he said, A certain man had two sons:

Both were his sons. Not just the one who remained behind.



And please note in the parables that when the one is lost (from the 100 and from the 10), the owner searched until that which was lost was found.
 
U

UnderGrace

Guest
This was an excellent OP.


You were right on and it is the true teaching of the passage. It aligns with the rest of scripture.

People cannot fall away from salvation a singular event which cannot be repeated but they can fall away from grace (abiding in Christ).

The writer of this letter is telling people you cannot repeat your initial salvation be born again again because that brings shame to the work of the cross but you do need to return to the author of that salvation ...that being Jesus and His righteousness within you.


Thank you Katy-folllower let us never grow weary of this message because it is all about the right understanding of salvation and God's magnanimous grace towards us.



Well that just about killed my thread :eek:
 

Katy-follower

Senior Member
Jun 25, 2011
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It means that a person cannot be born again a second, third, fourth time.

A person is born again one time. What the born again one receives at the time he/she is born again is incorruptible seed (1 Peter 1:23), and it is life eternal (1 John 5:13). Incorruptible seed does not become corrupt and eternal life does not become temporary.

The born again one doesn't get unborn again when he/she sins then born again when he/she repents then unborn again when he/she sins then born again when he/she repents.

A believer is born again one time. After that, confess the sin if/when he/she stumbles.
Great post! (You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to reneweddaybyday again)


It seems that some are suggesting that the Holy Spirit keeps jumping in and out of the body, lol :eek:

It's just not biblical to say that one goes from being a child of God to a child of the devil.

Unadopted? Unsealed? None of these mentioned in the scriptures. The Holy Spirit is our deposit, the guarantee of our inheritance (Ephesians 1:3-14)... sealed until the day of redemption, not sealed until you sin :)

Too tired to read through all the posts right now but will be back later.
 

Katy-follower

Senior Member
Jun 25, 2011
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Ephesians 1:3-14: "....In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory"


Kings of old would attach their seal to a document or possession, in order to give it authenticity, ownership or authority.

One of many examples in the bible, to show how a seal is regarded....

Esther 8:8: "You yourselves write a decree concerning the Jews, as you please, in the king’s name, and seal it with the king’s signet ring; for whatever is written in the king’s name and sealed with the king’s signet ring no one can revoke.
 
Jun 5, 2017
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Ephesians 1:3-14: "....In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory"


Kings of old would attach their seal to a document or possession, in order to give it authenticity, ownership or authority.

One of many examples in the bible, to show how a seal is regarded....

Esther 8:8: "You yourselves write a decree concerning the Jews, as you please, in the king’s name, and seal it with the king’s signet ring; for whatever is written in the king’s name and sealed with the king’s signet ring no one can revoke.
Dear Brother or Sister, have you considered the Scriptures below? The Holy Spirit is only given to those that obey God's Word and not to someone willfully practicing sin. That being said though if we are tempted and do sin we have an advocate with the Father.

"My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous." (1John 2:1)

"And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him." (Acts 5:32)

"Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof." (Rom 6:12)

"Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?" (Rom 6:16).

"For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." (Rom 6:23)

"And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him." (Heb 5:9)

Jesus says, "If ye love me, keep my commandments." (John 14:15)

"If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love." (John 15:10)

"And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. He that saith, I know him, and keeps not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him." (1John 2:3-4)

"And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.

"Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him."

"Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous."

"He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil."

"Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin
; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God."

"In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God
, neither he that loveth not his brother." (1John 3:5-10)

"Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again,1 he cannot see the kingdom of God. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again." (John 3:7-8)

"For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, and have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame." (Heb 6:4-6)

"For if we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. (Heb 10:26-27).

Dear friend the above experience can only be found in the Gospel of Christ for it is the power of God unto salvation from sin to everyone that believes in God's Word. You must be born again by repentance (turning away from sin) confessing your sins to Jesus and believing His Words of forgiveness and His promises.

"Seek ye the LORD while he may be found, call ye upon him while he is near: Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon." (Isa 55:6-7) And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart. (Jer 29:13)

From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand (Matt 4:17).
 
Mar 23, 2016
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Katy-follower said:
It seems that some are suggesting that the Holy Spirit keeps jumping in and out of the body, lol :eek:

It's just not biblical to say that one goes from being a child of God to a child of the devil.
Exactly. It is so comforting to know that God is the One Who begins that good work in us and He will continue to perform that good work until the Day of Christ Jesus (still future).



Katy-follower said:
Unadopted? Unsealed? None of these mentioned in the scriptures. The Holy Spirit is our deposit, the guarantee of our inheritance (Ephesians 1:3-14)... sealed until the day of redemption, not sealed until you sin :)
Yes. The arrabōn (earnest). Such a great truth.
 
Mar 23, 2016
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Ephesians 1:3-14: "....In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory"


Kings of old would attach their seal to a document or possession, in order to give it authenticity, ownership or authority.

One of many examples in the bible, to show how a seal is regarded....

Esther 8:8: "You yourselves write a decree concerning the Jews, as you please, in the king’s name, and seal it with the king’s signet ring; for whatever is written in the king’s name and sealed with the king’s signet ring no one can revoke.
Right. There is more to the seal than what some currently understand.
 

TruthTalk

Senior Member
Jul 17, 2017
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If salvation was dependent on "you" then you would need to create and maintain a works-righteousness religion. But the "good news" is called the good news for a reason - it is all about Christ and what He has done in His great work on the cross and resurrection. [video=youtube;ymCgHPu7Nz4]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ymCgHPu7Nz4[/video]
Thank you for this clear message - I'm tryin' to play ketchup/catch-up on this forum, being the new guy in town. It would be nice if I could buy a 1kg. steak fillet like that beautiful fish in your photo, half for my wife of course.
 
Feb 7, 2017
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Hmmm...the bible does say nothing "new under the sun" (Ecclesiastes) but thankfully we are made new by the SON.... eternally new!

There is nothing new under the sun. However, besides the sun, everything becomes new.
 
Feb 7, 2017
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Hmmm...the bible does say nothing "new under the sun" (Ecclesiastes) but thankfully we are made new by the SON.... eternally new!

There is nothing new under the sun. However, besides the sun, everything becomes new (2Cor 5.17; Rev 21.5).
 
Mar 28, 2016
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The bible says so. I only speak from scripture. Heb 6v4-6 was a believer who fell away. If you are upset, you are upset with scripture, not me.

Your parables above are prefaced with the following:

Luke 15
1 Then all the tax collectors and the sinners drew near to Him to hear Him. [SUP]2 [/SUP]And the Pharisees and scribes complained, saying, “This Man receives sinners and eats with them.” [SUP]3 [/SUP]So He spoke this parable to them, saying:

You see, all of the parables that follow in Luke 15 are referencing the unbeliever becoming a believer. And not a believer who becomes apostate.

That is why we have this suitable introduction.
Two distinct apposing groups.

Those
who went out from us. because they were not of us.

For it is impossible for those who were enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.Heb 6:4

What are the better things that accompany salvation?
 
Mar 28, 2016
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I would offer that the key to understanding Hebrews 6 is in looking at the opening statement which began in the previous chapter. It has to do with first things first. Sometimes chapter division can cause confusion.

(Purple in parenthesis) by comments

For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe. But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil. Therefore leaving the (first) principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying "again" (and again crucifying the Son of God over and over) the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. Heb 5:12 ----Hebrew 6 :2

Dead works, and of faith toward God, and not God's work of faith towards us must be defined. It is the key I believe. or else whose faith is in view .....that can provide the work can cause confusion.

Seeing faith without works is dead.(no separation) We do not offer our work to towards God coming from us. We walk by the unseen, as the Spirit of Christ works in us (not by us ) to both will and perform His good pleasure. In James 2 it is called a imputed righteousness.... again coming from the work of Christ’s faith, of God towards us. . (two directions)

The unconverted Jew who required a sign before they believed did just exactly that offered their dead works as a personal faith, toward God, turning things upside down rather than God’s work of faith towards us. Crucifying the Lord of glory over and over exposing Him to public shame.

All the saints died not receiving the promise of their reward,a new incorruptible body. The better thing that does accompany salvation.


The Jew or any man that would offer what they do as evidence of the reward ...they have already received their reward of self-righteousness.... the false boast of a hope seen.

Rom 8:24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?

Because we have a living hope that will not disappoint us, as a hope that goes beyond human hope we continue to walk by faith, not by a work we could do all the days of our lives.

Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe. For “the Jews require a sign,” and the Greeks seek after wisdom:But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God. 1Co 1:20


Rom 4:18 Who against hope believed(exercised the faith of Christ ) in hope, that he might become the father of many nations, according to that which was spoken, So shall thy seed be.

1Co 15:19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.
 

PennEd

Senior Member
Apr 22, 2013
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I saw this commentary recently on these verses. I am not even slightly an expert in Greek, but I'd never saw this perspective before, and thought it was very interesting.

"Was It Impossible Now to Ever Renew Them Again to Repentance in Order to Spiritually Grow?To answer this pertinent question it is helpful to closely observe the participial phrase: “Since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.” The phrase “since they crucify again” is just one word in the Greek text anastauroō. It is a present active temporal [point in time] participle which is contemporaneous in time to the action of the main verb and that carries the idea of while doing, especially when it is related to the main verb. This could then be translated, “If they fall away, [it is impossible] to renew them again to repentance, while they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.” The writer of Hebrews is not shutting the door forever upon these believers experiencing spiritual growth again. But he is making it clear that this spiritual renewal will not occur while at the same time they persist in going back to the defunct Temple and its needless sacrifices."
 

MarcR

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2015
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Heb 6:4-6
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

The words 'For it is' are not in the Greek text. they were added by the translators to make the English less choppy.

The word (αδυνατον) impossible is the first word in the sentence. As I understand it, the word impossible applies to the entire scenario in verses 4-6 making the entire scenario hypothetical.

5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
KJV

If they shall fall away There is no if in the Greek και παραπεσοντας means and even so NOT if


but the hypothetical creates a quasi subjunctive so we must read [but if it were possible; it would then be impossible] to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
 

Bladerunner

Senior Member
Aug 22, 2016
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Heb 6:4-6
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

The words 'For it is' are not in the Greek text. they were added by the translators to make the English less choppy.

The word (αδυνατον) impossible is the first word in the sentence. As I understand it, the word impossible applies to the entire scenario in verses 4-6 making the entire scenario hypothetical.

5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
KJV

If they shall fall away There is no if in the Greek και παραπεσοντας means and even so NOT if


but the hypothetical creates a quasi subjunctive so we must read [but if it were possible; it would then be impossible] to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
MarcR....If one looks at the LXX "Heb 6:4 ἀδύνατον γὰρ τοὺς ἅπαξ φωτισθέντας γευσαμένους τε τῆς δωρεᾶς τῆς ἐπουρανίου καὶ μετόχους γενηθέντας πνεύματος ἁγίου" Saying ..."For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit."

The TR is the way it is written in the KJV... Everything was written in Greek prior to the TR,(was written within the lifetime of the authors), The Latin Vulgate came along a few years later and its translation is what the TR used. If one goes back to the Greek version, its translation is a little clearer and is defiantly not a hypothetical.
 

MarcR

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2015
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MarcR....If one looks at the LXX "Heb 6:4 ἀδύνατον γὰρ τοὺς ἅπαξ φωτισθέντας γευσαμένους τε τῆς δωρεᾶς τῆς ἐπουρανίου καὶ μετόχους γενηθέντας πνεύματος ἁγίου" Saying ..."For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit."

The TR is the way it is written in the KJV... Everything was written in Greek prior to the TR,(was written within the lifetime of the authors), The Latin Vulgate came along a few years later and its translation is what the TR used. If one goes back to the Greek version, its translation is a little clearer and is defiantly not a hypothetical.
Did you parse the Greek that you posted? ἀδύνατον the very first word means imposible. " For it is is" is just not there!
You are putting verse 5 ahead of verse 4. That is not translation. I also use both the KJV and the TR; but I crosscheck the TR with the majority text.
 

FlyingDove

Senior Member
Dec 27, 2017
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Hebrews 6:4-6 context is not about losing salvation.
To begin with; here are just 7 of many scriptures. That make it abundantly clear that salvation is eternal. (Jn 3:16 & 6:47; Jn 10:27-29; Rom 8:35; 38-39 & 10:9-13; Phil 1:6)

Some background: The main theme throughout the book of Hebrews is NEW ""BETTER"" COVENANT.
Christ is better: Better then angels, because they worship the Christ. Better then Moses, because He created Him. Better then the Aaronic priesthood, because Christ's sin sacrifice is once for all time. Better then the law, because Christ mediates a better covenant.

These Jews who were having a hard time making a break from total indoctrination in a legalistic religion. Judaism's, Temple worship and the daily sacrifices. Many are reversing course and choose to continue in their religion to avoid persecution and often being totally ostracized

Backgroung 2: The parable of the sower Matt:13 & Mk 4:5
4 Jesus said; a sower sowed, some seeds fell by the way side, the fowls came & devoured them

5 Some fell upon stony places, they had not much earth: they sprung up, because they had no deepness of earth:

6 when the sun was up, they were scorched; because they had no root, they withered away

7 And some fell among thorns; the thorns sprung up, & choked them

8 Other fell into good ground, & brought forth fruit, some an hundredfold, some 60 fold, some 30 fold
Background 3: Proverbs 26:11 & 2 Pet 2:22 "A dog goes back to its vomit"
Now lets parse Heb 6:4a For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened.
(Enlightened definition: having been showed a rational well-informed outlook. Just because a person has been shown how to get someplace. Doesn't mean they will choose to go there)

Heb 6:4b For it is impossible for those who have "tasted" (the Word)
(To taste something: Means just that, "TASTE IT" not consume or accept the whole meal. But, to "TASTE". And now you can decide if you want to eat it or not)

Heb 6:4c Were made partakers of the Holy Spirit
(Jn 14:6 Jesus saith; I am the way, the truth, & the life: no man comes to the Father, but by me)

Ok, Jesus sowed the Word (they TASTED), the Holy Spirit confirmed (enlightened) the truth into there hearts
After TASTING the WORD of God. Like the seeds that fell by the way side onto stony ground. They rejected Gods Grace/Word (Jesus Christ)

Again, Heb 6:4-6 scriptures are about the price of rejection & UNBELIEF! NOT loosing salvation!

Under the old covenant (Jews only) the only sin that couldn't be coverd was, IDOLATRY

Under the new covenant (covers all believers) the only unforgivable sin is, UNBELIEF!

These Jews rejected that the doctrine of by Grace thru Faith. They never were SAVED. After HEARING & TASTING the WORD of ENLIGHTENMENT in UNBELIEF they REJECTED it. And returned to legalistic traditions & the law!