Hebrews 6

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rogerg

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Jul 13, 2021
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I don't think that would be possible:

[1Pe 1:3-5 KJV]
3 Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,
5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

[Eph 1:11 KJV]
11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

[Col 1:12 KJV]
12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:
 

rogerg

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Also note the "we" in Hebrews 3:14 could mean "believers" in general, whether past, present, or future, such as here

Ephesians 4:13until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God, as we mature to the full measure of the stature of Christ.


And thus with "are made" or "become" could mean that believers, whether past present or future, are necessarily made partakers in Christ as a result of holding fast until the end


which would explain why there are other strikingly similar verses that seem to indicate a reward for holding on to confidence rather than our end confidence merely confirming that we will receive a reward.

Hebrews 6:11We want each of you to show this same diligence to the very end, in order to make your hope sure.
Hebrews 10:35So do not throw away your confidence; it holds a great reward. 36You need to persevere, so that after you have done the will of God, you will receive what He has promised.
There are those who do not have or retain faith in Christ because their faith is not of God's work but is of their own work/intellectual doings, and so, being of man, it is transient, and they fall eventually away from it. Only those who have been indwelt with the Holy Spirit can retain true faith until the end. So, I would say that it is the reverse of what you've posted; that is, it is not a result of the holding fast of faith by which they are made partakers in Christ, but rather, BECAUSE they have been made partakers in Christ by God that they hold fast faith until the end.

[Col 1:12 KJV]
12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in
light:

[1Pe 1:21 KJV]
21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.

[1Pe 1:4-5 KJV]
4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,
5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.


Regarding Heb 6:11, remember that Paul is addressing those who have already become saved, and not making a general doctrinal statement to encompass everyone. Heb 6:9 makes that clear, therefore, in 6:11, he is not informing them of anything that they must do to become saved (because they are already saved), but rather, that they continue until the end to demonstrate the result of salvation. It is not a pathway to salvation but because of/from salvation; that is, that their "diligence" comes/is/of/from their hope, which hope, God had already given to them, along with full assurances which accompanies it.

[Heb 6:9, 11 KJV]
9 But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak. ...
11 And we desire that every one of you do shew the same diligence to the full assurance of hope unto the end:

Let's grant that those who are not in God's "will" will not inherit His Kingdom.
Okay.

Invalid, as they could have been in His will before and were taken out, hence the warning to

Galatians 5:21and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

"you" meaning
Galatians 3:26You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.
Galatians 4: 6And because you are sons, God sent the Spirit of His Son into our hearts, crying out, “Abba, Father!”


It is obviously unnecessary to warn them if they could not have chosen to practice such things.
if not then please explain what "warn" and "you" meant specifically
No, they cannot be removed from His will because it was God who had placed them into it to begin with, and who keeps them within it - it cannot be that it is of themselves, otherwise, that would make themselves, not Christ, into their own saviour. Notice the words "you" and "reserved" in 1 Pet 1:4. The verse does not say "fadeth not away in heaven for you"; instead, it says " fadeth not away RESERVED for YOU in heaven". By that, we know two things: 1) by the "you", that there are only certain specific people it is for, and 2), that for those certain specific people, it has been RESERVED by God for them, and if reserved by God, then it can neither be lost nor removed. Further by verse 1:5, it is confirmed that it is only by God's power and not by man's power that they are "kept" in faith.
[1Pe 1:4-5 KJV]
4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,
5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

Those of Gal 5:21, were never made beneficiaries of the will. Its purpose was to serve as an edification/warning to all, but nevertheless, those who are not of the will, will not/cannot heed that warning - yet, they have been forewarned. Those of the will, will heed it, and again, they will do so only because they are of the will and of the saved.

Regarding 3:26, you need to also consider the prior verse. Faith "come(s)" to them; by the word "come" we know that it is not of their doing but because faith came to them from/by an external source. Because they received faith, that made them the children of God by faith they were given. However, it is not given to everyone.

Gal 2:16 explains how faith comes to someone - we believe in Christ only because the Christ's faith is first imputed to those saved, by which, does their faith come.

[Gal 3:25 KJV] 25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

[Gal 2:16 KJV] 16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

I am not sure that I exactly follow the point you are trying to make regarding Gal 4:6? Verse 4:5 informs that
Christ came to redeem. It is only by His redemption we are made the sons (the adopted) of God - it is not of ourselves but of Christ.
Therefore, being a son, the Holy Spirit enters into the heart- none of it a result of our actions but only of God's.

[Gal 4:5-6 KJV]
5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.
6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.
 
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[Col 1:12 KJV]
12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in
light:
If by "meet" he means

Strong's Exhaustive Concordance
make able.
From hikanos; to enable, i.e. Qualify -- make able (meet).

see GREEK hikanos


HELPS Word-studies
Cognate: 2427 hikanóō – properly, reaching the place of sufficiency and hence making someone qualified, i.e. able (competent). See 2425 (hikanos).

that could describe people who haven't yet partook of an inheritance, but could partake one day as a result of being able to (in bold)
Hebrews 10:36You need to persevere, so that after you have done the will of God, you will receive what He has promised.


[1Pe 1:21 KJV]
21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.
even if "that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God."
isn't what Peter meant by "by Him do believe in God"
or didn't allow the possibility of unbelief for Peter's audience

Peter's audience being being given faith or having faith at that time doesn't mean that at some later point they cannot have
Hebrews 3:12See to it, brothers, that none of you has a wicked heart of unbelief that turns away from the living God.


"none of you" there^ would be from within a group he calls
Hebrews 3:12See to it, brothers, that none of you has a wicked heart of unbelief that turns away from the living God.

which you seem to agree were Christians from Hebrews 6:9 (even if that doesn't necessarily refer to saved from hell imo)
If osas or whatever chooses to disregard "none of you" then that is yet another reason why I fundamentally disagree with it

[1Pe 1:4-5 KJV]
4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,
5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
Then it is good to not be
Ephesians 5:5For of this you can be sure: No immoral, impure, or greedy person (that is, an idolater), has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.

And to keep your faith since you are kept by the Power of God through it

It is not a pathway to salvation but because of/from salvation; that is, that their "diligence" comes/is/of
sótéria: deliverance, salvation

could describe a number of things, including
Acts 27:34So for your own preservation, I urge you to eat something, because not a single hair of your head will be lost.”

If Paul was referring to this, for example, by "salvation"
Romans 6:7For anyone who has died has been freed from sin.

Then, presumably, they still had the ability to
Romans 6:12Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its desires.

in a broader sense of concepts referred to as "saved" and describe eternal salvation
this would also fall into that category
1 Peter 3:21Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ

which also doesn't negate Romans 6:12, and doesn't negate Romans 6:23

therefore, Hebrews 6:9 does not prevent Hebrews 3:14 (or any other similar verse) from referring to (in bold)
Galatians 6: 8The one who sows to please his flesh, from the flesh will reap destruction; but the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life.

(eternal life sometimes refers to immortality imo such as in 1 Corinthians 15, Romans 2:7, and Jude 1:21, as opposed to the personal noun "Eternal Life" which refers to Jesus Christ in 1 John 5:20)

And of course there is this (not that this is what Hebrews 6:9 is referring to)
for those who believe the only appropriate use for "saved" would be at the point of belief
Mark 13:13You will be hated by everyone because of My name, but the one who perseveres to the end will be saved.

this is my understanding, however believe the scriptures over any errors I make
 

rogerg

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Jul 13, 2021
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that could describe people who haven't yet partook of an inheritance, but could partake one day as a result of being able to (in bold)
Hebrews 10:36You need to persevere, so that after you have done the will of God, you will receive what He has promised.
That means those who partake of the inheritance, do so, because the Father prepared them for it in ALL ways, not some. Conversely, if the Father had not prepared them, then they could not partake of the inheritance. Look at v13 which continues the thought of v12 (v12 doesn't end it): that God had already translated them into the kingdom of Christ: they were ALREADY, by that point, translated into the kingdom of His Son, but solely by God, not through anything they had done.

[Col 1:13 KJV] 13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated [us] into the kingdom of his dear Son:

Regarding biblical warnings and admonitions, God uses them to teach and to edify the elect/saved. Nevertheless, being of those, then they will persevere because it is God who moves within them to will and to do of His good pleasure. But they don't do so to be saved but because they have been saved - perseverance is a result of salvation, not a cause of it.

even if "that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God."
isn't what Peter meant by "by Him do believe in God"
or didn't allow the possibility of unbelief for Peter's audience

Peter's audience being being given faith or having faith at that time doesn't mean that at some later point they cannot have
Hebrews 3:12See to it, brothers, that none of you has a wicked heart of unbelief that turns away from the living God.
Yes, it does mean that. By Christ being raised by the Father from the dead, faith is imputed to His elect/saved. The faith of Christ is imputed to His elect and is the only way that man can receive true faith, which faith alone has righteousness within it. A faith produced by man's intellect or effort, has no righteousness at all. Do you see in Gal 2:16, the "but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ"? That tells us that a person's faith, if a true faith, was by/from Christ alone. Also, look at Phl 3:9. It tells us that righteousness is given only within the faith of Christ, so it is impossible that righteousness is of man.

[Gal 2:16 KJV] 16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

[Phl 3:9 KJV] 9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:


That is correct, God can save whoever He chooses to save, whenever He chooses to save them - but true faith is a byproduct of salvation, it doesn't bring salvation. So, those who truly believe do so because of salvation and they cannot fall away because salvation being eternal, the faith that accompanies it is also eternal.
However, there are those who do, will, and must, fall away from the faith because they were they were never of the saved.
Observe:
[Luk 8:13 KJV] 13 They on the rock [are they], which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.

which you seem to agree were Christians from Hebrews 6:9 (even if that doesn't necessarily refer to saved from hell imo)
If osas or whatever chooses to disregard "none of you" then that is yet another reason why I fundamentally disagree with it
The question should not be the admonition itself, but in who will follow it and why. Only those saved will and must follow it, but they do so as a result of salvation, not to become or remain saved. If saved, they are in no danger of losing it and know so, but once taught, they choose to follow it because they truly understand its significance and they believe it to be true.
I think I have posted this verse to you before, but I will repost anyway. I think it (along with many other verses) removes any
doubt/possibility of OSAS not being true and correct. I can't see how it could be made any clearer or plainer than this verse makes it. Read it closely.

[Phl 1:6 KJV]
6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform [it] until the day of Jesus Christ:

Regarding Eph 5:5, the things mentioned there are symbols of spiritual sin even through portray as carnal. While it is bad to commit those acts carnally, doing so does not remove one's salvation. For an example, look at king David - he committed many carnal sins but his salvation was never in jeopardy. However, spiritually speaking, they would never be committed by a truly saved person because the sins pertain to Christ and denying Him by worshiping false gods, which they would/could never want to do.

I'll try to finish my reply to you in the near future.
 
Oct 6, 2022
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[Col 1:13 KJV] 13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated [us] into the kingdom of his dear Son:
Notice that it was possible for these servants to have a

Luke 19:15When he returned from procuring his kingship, he summoned the servants to whom he had given the money, to find out what each one had earned.


thus be in a Kingdom before receiving
(in bold)


Luke 19:
16The first servant came forward and said, ‘Master, your mina has produced ten more minas.’
17His master replied, ‘Well done, good servant! Because you have been faithful in a very small matter, you shall have authority over ten cities.’
18The second servant came and said, ‘Master, your mina has made five minas.’19And to this one he said, ‘You shall have authority over five cities.



aka authority over a


3310. meris (partake)

Strong's Exhaustive Concordance
part, portion
Feminine of meros; a portion, i.e. Province, share or (abstractly) participation -- part (X -akers).

see GREEK meros

Strong's Concordance
meris: a part, portion
Original Word: μερίς, ίδος, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: meris
Phonetic Spelling: (mer-ece')
Definition: a part, portion
Usage: (a) a part, division of a country, (b) a share, portion.

Thayer's Greek Lexicon
STRONGS NT 3310: μερίς

μερίς, μερίδος, ἡ (see μέρος), the Sept. chiefly for חֵלֶק, חֶלְקָה, מָנָה; (from Antiphon and Thucydides down); a part, equivalent to
1. a part as distinct from the whole: (τῆς) Μακεδονίας, Acts 16:12 (on which see Hort in WH's Appendix at the passage).

2. an assigned part, a portion, share: Luke 10:42 (see ἀγαθός, 2); ἐστι μοι μερίς μετά τίνος, I have a portion, i. e. fellowship, with one, 2 Corinthians 6:15. οὐκ ἐστι μοι μερίς ἤ κλῆρος ἐν τίνι, I have neither part nor lot, take no share, in a thing, Acts 8:21; ἱκανουν τινα εἰς τήν μερίδα τίνος, to make one fit to obtain a share in a thing (i. e. partitive genitive; others, genitive of apposition), Colossians 1:12.


Used in Colossians 1:12, thus before receiving a share/partaking, which would explain, despite talking to disciples of Jesus, the present tensed
Hebrews 12:28Therefore, since we are receiving an unshakable kingdom, let us be filled with gratitude, and so worship God acceptably with reverence and awe

That means those who partake of the inheritance, do so, because the Father prepared them for it in ALL ways, not some.
Which could describe someone who will partake/receive a portion of the kingdom (in bold)
35So do not throw away your confidence; it holds a great reward. 36You need to persevere, so that after you have done the will of God, you will receive what He has promised.


as a result of using all the things they have been prepared with

Nevertheless, being of those, then they will persevere because it is God who moves within them to will and to do of His good pleasure.
then it makes no sense to direct the warning at them

Yes, it does mean that. By Christ being raised by the Father from the dead, faith is imputed to His elect/saved.
"that your faith and hope might be in God."

implies God raised Jesus from the dead for the purpose of their faith being in God which can be true even if they didn't believe,
just like putting on cologne for the purpose of impressing a woman can be true even if you impress no one

"by God" doesn't deductively infer necessity because if it were possible for the elect to not believe, the possibility of belief could still be credited to what God accomplished in this case
just like if a plant grows, we usually credit the planter
but nothing here makes belief necessary

"By Christ being raised by the Father from the dead, faith is imputed to His elect/saved."

however implies faith necessarily. However, the point was that even if God did necessarily give them faith at some point in the past, that in itself doesn't mean this
v
v
v
Nevertheless, being of those, then they will persevere because it is God who moves within them to will and to do of His good pleasure.
Regarding Philippians 1:6
If Paul was referring to the same general concept in 1 Corinthians 1:7-8 and Colossians 1:12-23 imo

then notice in Colossians there is this important added condition

Colossians 1:23if indeed you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope of the gospel you heard, which has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant.

which, like with Hebrews 3:14, can (and seems to) mean as a result of standing firm in faith. Or does Colossians 1:23 have nothing to do with Philippians 1:6?
Do you see in Gal 2:16, the "but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ"? That tells us that a person's faith, if a true faith, was by/from Christ alone.
the verse does not say

"but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we will believe in Jesus Christ"

or is there no difference?
And as shown the other verses really don't necessarily give this osas meaning
Hence the discomfort in interpreting this
Hebrews 3:12See to it, brothers, that none of you has a wicked heart of unbelief that turns away from the living God

as an admonition and not a warning to his Christian brethren

Also, look at Phl 3:9. It tells us that righteousness is given only within the faith of Christ, so it is impossible that righteousness is of man.
assuming for the sake of argument that Χριστοῦ, means "of Christ" necessarily and not "in Christ" here (also taking a colloquial meaning for "faith")
It would suggest, without reading anything else into it
a) Christ gave you faith
b) through that faith you have righteousness


Christ giving you faith at some point in the past, again, does not mean that at some later point you cannot have


Hebrews 3:12See to it, brothers, that none of you has a wicked heart of unbelief that turns away from the living God

from not doing this for example

Hebrews 3:13But exhort one another daily, as long as it is called today, so that none of you may be hardened by sin’s deceitfulness.

[Luk 8:13 KJV] 13 They on the rock [are they], which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.
Which does not epress the degree of faith that had,
forsooth to have had "true faith" or not"

true faith is a byproduct of salvation
A position that seems cumbersome

Acts 16:
30Then he brought them out and asked, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?”
31They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved, you and your household.”

therefore, being based on that premise
v
v
v
So, those who truly believe do so because of salvation and they cannot fall away because salvation being eternal, the faith that accompanies it is also eternal.
is false in as much as "saved" here matches "saved" in Acts 16:30
 

rogerg

Well-known member
Jul 13, 2021
3,884
645
113
Notice that it was possible for these servants to have a

Luke 19:15When he returned from procuring his kingship, he summoned the servants to whom he had given the money, to find out what each one had earned.


thus be in a Kingdom before receiving
(in bold)


Luke 19:
16The first servant came forward and said, ‘Master, your mina has produced ten more minas.’
17His master replied, ‘Well done, good servant! Because you have been faithful in a very small matter, you shall have authority over ten cities.’
18The second servant came and said, ‘Master, your mina has made five minas.’19And to this one he said, ‘You shall have authority over five cities.



aka authority over a


3310. meris (partake)

Strong's Exhaustive Concordance
part, portion
Feminine of meros; a portion, i.e. Province, share or (abstractly) participation -- part (X -akers).

see GREEK meros

Strong's Concordance
meris: a part, portion
Original Word: μερίς, ίδος, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: meris
Phonetic Spelling: (mer-ece')
Definition: a part, portion
Usage: (a) a part, division of a country, (b) a share, portion.

Thayer's Greek Lexicon
STRONGS NT 3310: μερίς

μερίς, μερίδος, ἡ (see μέρος), the Sept. chiefly for חֵלֶק, חֶלְקָה, מָנָה; (from Antiphon and Thucydides down); a part, equivalent to
1. a part as distinct from the whole: (τῆς) Μακεδονίας, Acts 16:12 (on which see Hort in WH's Appendix at the passage).

2. an assigned part, a portion, share: Luke 10:42 (see ἀγαθός, 2); ἐστι μοι μερίς μετά τίνος, I have a portion, i. e. fellowship, with one, 2 Corinthians 6:15. οὐκ ἐστι μοι μερίς ἤ κλῆρος ἐν τίνι, I have neither part nor lot, take no share, in a thing, Acts 8:21; ἱκανουν τινα εἰς τήν μερίδα τίνος, to make one fit to obtain a share in a thing (i. e. partitive genitive; others, genitive of apposition), Colossians 1:12.


Used in Colossians 1:12, thus before receiving a share/partaking, which would explain, despite talking to disciples of Jesus, the present tensed
Hebrews 12:28Therefore, since we are receiving an unshakable kingdom, let us be filled with gratitude, and so worship God acceptably with reverence and awe


Which could describe someone who will partake/receive a portion of the kingdom (in bold)
35So do not throw away your confidence; it holds a great reward. 36You need to persevere, so that after you have done the will of God, you will receive what He has promised.


as a result of using all the things they have been prepared with


then it makes no sense to direct the warning at them


"that your faith and hope might be in God."

implies God raised Jesus from the dead for the purpose of their faith being in God which can be true even if they didn't believe,
just like putting on cologne for the purpose of impressing a woman can be true even if you impress no one

"by God" doesn't deductively infer necessity because if it were possible for the elect to not believe, the possibility of belief could still be credited to what God accomplished in this case
just like if a plant grows, we usually credit the planter
but nothing here makes belief necessary

"By Christ being raised by the Father from the dead, faith is imputed to His elect/saved."

however implies faith necessarily. However, the point was that even if God did necessarily give them faith at some point in the past, that in itself doesn't mean this
v
v
v

Regarding Philippians 1:6
If Paul was referring to the same general concept in 1 Corinthians 1:7-8 and Colossians 1:12-23 imo

then notice in Colossians there is this important added condition

Colossians 1:23if indeed you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope of the gospel you heard, which has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant.

which, like with Hebrews 3:14, can (and seems to) mean as a result of standing firm in faith. Or does Colossians 1:23 have nothing to do with Philippians 1:6?

the verse does not say

"but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we will believe in Jesus Christ"

or is there no difference?
And as shown the other verses really don't necessarily give this osas meaning
Hence the discomfort in interpreting this
Hebrews 3:12See to it, brothers, that none of you has a wicked heart of unbelief that turns away from the living God

as an admonition and not a warning to his Christian brethren



assuming for the sake of argument that Χριστοῦ, means "of Christ" necessarily and not "in Christ" here (also taking a colloquial meaning for "faith")
It would suggest, without reading anything else into it
a) Christ gave you faith
b) through that faith you have righteousness


Christ giving you faith at some point in the past, again, does not mean that at some later point you cannot have


Hebrews 3:12See to it, brothers, that none of you has a wicked heart of unbelief that turns away from the living God

from not doing this for example

Hebrews 3:13But exhort one another daily, as long as it is called today, so that none of you may be hardened by sin’s deceitfulness.


Which does not epress the degree of faith that had,
forsooth to have had "true faith" or not"


A position that seems cumbersome

Acts 16:
30Then he brought them out and asked, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?”
31They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved, you and your household.”

therefore, being based on that premise
v
v
v

is false in as much as "saved" here matches "saved" in Acts 16:30
No offense but we've been going round and round about the gospel for a while now, with me having to reexplain and reapply the doctrines of God's mercy and grace as I see them, and to tell you the truth, it's getting kind of wearying. I understand that you deeply hold to your beliefs and with which I disagree, but I don't think that either of us will be changed by it, so I don't see any benefit in us continuing to repeatedly regurgitate the same doctrines over and over again. However, should something change in the future, I'd be happy to reengage with you. My point of points has been this: that Christ alone is the Saviour - everything I've written has been based upon that.