HELL, DEATH, DESTRUCTION

[BaptistBibleBeliever]

No more hell, no more repentance. Just believe in Jesus and even if you dont, you will just enter the atheist paradise (annihilation).
Im calling last days apostasy

2018 church=whatever feels good. That's what the megachurches are about. Joel Osteen doesn't know anything about the Gospel of Jesus Christ, but he is an expert on the gospel of feeling good.

 

[Scrobulous]

Spirits don't die. Souls do!

Ezekiel 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.
Matthew 10:28 And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell
Ezekiel 18:20 (KJV) 20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

Many thanks for this very thought provoking post!
But I take issue with your comment here!

‘Spirits don’t die, souls do.’

Certainly you have established that souls die. But in Mt 10:28 the point is made that men cannot kill the soul, only God can (in hell).
In the quotations from Ezk 18, soul is used in the sense of ‘person’ as in save our souls (sos) means save us.
But I disagree with your assertion that spirits don’t die. I think they do.
In Gen 2:17 it says the day you eat the fruit you will die. Evidently the bodies of Adam and Eve continued to live. What died was their spirits.
When a man dies his body goes into the earth and his spirit returns to God Ecc 12:7
In Luke 16:9+ we see that Sheol, the place of the dead, the grave or pit, has two sections: paradise or Abraham’s side (bosom) where the righteous saints go and hell where the unrighteous go. Here they wait for the resurrection, awake and conscious.
But the human spirit is still dead. Certainly the man is conscious as were Adam and Eve, but their spirits have no contact with God, they are dead. It is only God who has life. John 1:4. In Him was life - a sgnificant statement given that there is no life anywhere else.
So it is only the resurrected saints who live eternally. The resurrected wicked may have bodies united to their dead spirits, but they are not like the angels.
After the judgement, the wicked are cast into the lake of fire, which, you will notice, is prepared for the devil and his angels. Wicked men are thrown in there too, but they are incinerated. The demons are not. This is why an eternal fire is necessary, not for men, but for demons.
This is why the bible always describes the judgment as an eternal and everlasting judgment.

 

[Scrobulous]

I imagine that you simply refuse to believe it for what it says.

Matthew 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Same word. ETERNAL. Same duration of punishment or LIFE.

αἰώνιος
aiōnios

Man let me tell you. Christianity is going SOFT and fast. Its going soft, its going effeminate. We are compromising more and more. Disgusting.

No more hell, no more repentance. Just believe in Jesus and even if you dont, you will just enter the atheist paradise (annihilation).
Im calling last days apostasy

An everlasting punishment
The second death is eternal separation from God. If I had the potential to be united with God, but reject the offer, I am eternally separated from Him. This is true whether I continue to exist for ever, like a demon or if I do not, like a man.
An eternal and everlasting punishment is exactly that, I am never reunited with God. I am excluded for all time. But I don’t have to exist in torment for ever for this judgment to be fulfilled. It is the judgment that is eternal and everlasting, not necessarily the victim.
The lake of fire was prepared for the devil and his angels. Demons live for ever, only God and those in Christ are immortal. Wicked men are not immortal. Resurrection gives them a body, but not immortality. Their spirit died in Adam. The day you eat this fruit you will die. So man is not eternal and after the judgment, men are incinerated in the fire.
How could it be otherwise? Life is in God. The wicked are not in God. There is no way they can be tormented for ever.
The smoke of their torment rising for ever (Rev 14:11) is an everlasting memorial to those who take the mark of the beast. Like any memorial, it can last much longer than the thing it commemorates.
A belief that the wicked are annihilated is not ‘soft’. The wicked still suffer in hell until the judgment. They go through the judgment and they are destroyed either in a literal fire afterwards or they are destroyed by whatever that fire signifies.
If you are going to take a literal view of apocalyptic language and consider this interpretation the only truth, then you will face a heaven in which the screams of the damned are heard in heaven every day. This may be pleasing to you, I don’t know.

 

[KILTBOY]

I'm sort of thinking that the Bible is older than Dante, and that Dante probably read about hell in that Bible . . . and used a little sanctified imagination to make it sound really bad. I'm also pretty sure that he didn't go far enough in describing the horrors or the depths of that place.

A lot of people think that hell will be the Devil's kingdom, but he will be an inmate just like the rest of the lost. He'll be in agony as well.

Many thanks for this very thought provoking post!
But I take issue with your comment here!

‘Spirits don’t die, souls do.’

Certainly you have established that souls die. But in Mt 10:28 the point is made that men cannot kill the soul, only God can (in hell).
In the quotations from Ezk 18, soul is used in the sense of ‘person’ as in save our souls (sos) means save us.
But I disagree with your assertion that spirits don’t die. I think they do.
In Gen 2:17 it says the day you eat the fruit you will die. Evidently the bodies of Adam and Eve continued to live. What died was their spirits.
When a man dies his body goes into the earth and his spirit returns to God Ecc 12:7
In Luke 16:9+ we see that Sheol, the place of the dead, the grave or pit, has two sections: paradise or Abraham’s side (bosom) where the righteous saints go and hell where the unrighteous go. Here they wait for the resurrection, awake and conscious.
But the human spirit is still dead. Certainly the man is conscious as were Adam and Eve, but their spirits have no contact with God, they are dead. It is only God who has life. John 1:4. In Him was life - a sgnificant statement given that there is no life anywhere else.
So it is only the resurrected saints who live eternally. The resurrected wicked may have bodies united to their dead spirits, but they are not like the angels.
After the judgement, the wicked are cast into the lake of fire, which, you will notice, is prepared for the devil and his angels. Wicked men are thrown in there too, but they are incinerated. The demons are not. This is why an eternal fire is necessary, not for men, but for demons.
This is why the bible always describes the judgment as an eternal and everlasting judgment.

Spirits do not die. They return to God who gave it!
Eccl 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

 

[KILTBOY]

What I do not understand is if you are Saved why be afraid of a literal Hell unless you are not nor getting people Saved!?!

This isn't about fear! God does not give us a spirit of fear. It's about spiritual discernment of God's Word. Being destroyed and eternally dead is the "torment" God speaks of. No longer in His presence or rememberance. None of the promises of God for the Believer are given to the wicked. Including life of ANY kind. The wages of sin is death! Eternal death of the soul. THIS is the second death.

 

[BaptistBibleBeliever]

Spirits do not die. They return to God who gave it!
Eccl 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

And then God sends that soul to one of two places . . . so?

 

[Scrobulous]

Spirits do not die. They return to God who gave it!
Eccl 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

You miss the point. Everything belongs to God, including satan and his demons. Returning to God does not mean the human spirit has life in it. Life comes from Christ. The lost are dead: or what does ‘in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die’ Gen 2:17 mean?

 

[Hevosmies]

How could it be otherwise? Life is in God. The wicked are not in God. There is no way they can be tormented for ever.
The smoke of their torment rising for ever (Rev 14:11) is an everlasting memorial to those who take the mark of the beast. Like any memorial, it can last much longer than the thing it commemorates.

If you are going to take a literal view of apocalyptic language and consider this interpretation the only truth, then you will face a heaven in which the screams of the damned are heard in heaven every day. This may be pleasing to you, I don’t know.

They cant be tormented forever, then you quote Revelation 14:11 which teaches that?
Lets think about that. Where does the smoke come from, if nothing is burning?

I wish I could get a dollar everytime I heard critique over taking things literally or apocalyptic literature. You can explain away everything by using those arguments.

Nobody in heaven will be hearing screams of the damned, where on EARTH did you get that false idea? Nobody I know has ever taught that.
In fact, the memory of the wicked shall be FORGOTTEN. All tears wiped away, nobody will be hearing nothing from or of the wicked in heaven.
STRAW MAN ARGUMENT in other words.

 

[Hevosmies]

This isn't about fear! God does not give us a spirit of fear. It's about spiritual discernment of God's Word. Being destroyed and eternally dead is the "torment" God speaks of.

Every night when you fall asleep you are in torment then?

Do you wake up in the morning and say "I had a good night of torment, i cant remember a thing"?

Yeah no, UNCONSCIOUSNESS is NOT torment. I like being asleep, I like sleeping, its one of my favorite activities, or lack thereof. I like being out of this world for a while so to speak.

You just made God say something He doesnt say, that torment is being eternally destroyed or dead or basically NON-EXISTING. That is NOT the definition of torment, okay? Not in the greek, not in the english, not in ANY LANGUAGE ever.

PS: I forgot to answer to your statement earlier. Not teaching a literal eternal hell IS the church going soft. Its giving the atheist what they want, annihilation. its Departing from historical doctrines.

 

[Scrobulous]

They cant be tormented forever, then you quote Revelation 14:11 which teaches that?
Lets think about that. Where does the smoke come from, if nothing is burning?

I wish I could get a dollar everytime I heard critique over taking things literally or apocalyptic literature. You can explain away everything by using those arguments.

Nobody in heaven will be hearing screams of the damned, where on EARTH did you get that false idea? Nobody I know has ever taught that.
In fact, the memory of the wicked shall be FORGOTTEN. All tears wiped away, nobody will be hearing nothing from or of the wicked in heaven.
STRAW MAN ARGUMENT in other words.

But you take Luke 16:9-31 literally. Not only can those in paradise see the damned, they can talk to them, so obviously, if the lost are burning day and night, you will hear them scream and you will watch them writhe in pain. So, welcome to your paradise! After all, no smoke without fire is there?

 

[Hevosmies]

But you take Luke 16:9-31 literally. Not only can those in paradise see the damned, they can talk to them, so obviously, if the lost are burning day and night, you will hear them scream and you will watch them writhe in pain. So, welcome to your paradise! After all, no smoke without fire is there?

You got to rightly divide the word of truth here.

That place is not heaven... Its Abraham's bosom.

Jesus took the people in there with Him to heaven.

 

[Ahwatukee]

But you take Luke 16:9-31 literally. Not only can those in paradise see the damned, they can talk to them, so obviously, if the lost are burning day and night, you will hear them scream and you will watch them writhe in pain. So, welcome to your paradise! After all, no smoke without fire is there?

Good day Scrobulous,

Hevosmies is correct! The place that you are speaking of is Sheol/Hades, which is under the earth. According to the event of the rich man and Lazarus there were two areas, one being where Abraham, Lazarus and the rest of the spirits of the OT saints went to after the death of the body which was a place of comfort/paradise and the area across from them which was separated by a great chasm where the wicked were/are in torment in flame. Now that Jesus has removed the spirits of the righteous they no longer reside there. However, the spirits of the wicked continue to pour into Sheol/Hades 24/7 and will be resurrected after the millennial kingdom at the great white throne judgment - (Luke 16:19-31, Rev.20:11-15)

 

[Hevosmies]

Good day Scrobulous,

Hevosmies is correct! The place that you are speaking of is Sheol/Hades, which is under the earth. According to the event of the rich man and Lazarus there were two areas, one being where Abraham, Lazarus and the rest of the spirits of the OT saints went to after the death of the body which was a place of comfort/paradise and the area across from them which was separated by a great chasm where the wicked were/are in torment in flame. Now that Jesus has removed the spirits of the righteous they no longer reside there. However, the spirits of the wicked continue to pour into Sheol/Hades 24/7 and will be resurrected after the millennial kingdom at the great white throne judgment - (Luke 16:19-31, Rev.20:11-15)

That brings up the question:

Is the good side of Sheol now "out of business"?

 

[Scrobulous]

You got to rightly divide the word of truth here.

That place is not heaven... Its Abraham's bosom.

Jesus took the people in there with Him to heaven.

Hilarious! So, Let me ask you, would you like to be in Abraham’s bosom? Yes or no? Would the sights and sounds of perpetual torture enhance your heavenly bliss? Or is it fine so long as you don’t see and hear it? If God made Abraham’s bosom the way he did, I am sure that the new heaven will have even better views and acoustics. If anything about this unsettles you, do let me know!

 

[Scrobulous]

Good day Scrobulous,

Hevosmies is correct! The place that you are speaking of is Sheol/Hades, which is under the earth. According to the event of the rich man and Lazarus there were two areas, one being where Abraham, Lazarus and the rest of the spirits of the OT saints went to after the death of the body which was a place of comfort/paradise and the area across from them which was separated by a great chasm where the wicked were/are in torment in flame. Now that Jesus has removed the spirits of the righteous they no longer reside there. However, the spirits of the wicked continue to pour into Sheol/Hades 24/7 and will be resurrected after the millennial kingdom at the great white throne judgment - (Luke 16:19-31, Rev.20:11-15)

Well, that’s just peachy isn’t it!

 

[Scrobulous]

Good day Scrobulous,

Hevosmies is correct! The place that you are speaking of is Sheol/Hades, which is under the earth. According to the event of the rich man and Lazarus there were two areas, one being where Abraham, Lazarus and the rest of the spirits of the OT saints went to after the death of the body which was a place of comfort/paradise and the area across from them which was separated by a great chasm where the wicked were/are in torment in flame. Now that Jesus has removed the spirits of the righteous they no longer reside there. However, the spirits of the wicked continue to pour into Sheol/Hades 24/7 and will be resurrected after the millennial kingdom at the great white throne judgment - (Luke 16:19-31, Rev.20:11-15)

It’s a shame the nazis didn’t offer day trips to the gas chambers while they were running. A taste of heaven, surely?

 

[Ahwatukee]

That brings up the question:

Is the good side of Sheol now "out of business"?

Good day Hevosmies,

I would believe so, since we have scripture which states that "to be absent from the body is to be in the presence of the Lord." When a believer in Christ dies, their spirits depart and go to be in the presence of the Lord, where prior to Christ's resurrection they went down into that place of comfort in Sheol. In further support of this, we also have a future view of the souls under the altar at the opening of the 5th seal of those who are killed during the first 3 1/2 years of that last seven year period.

 

[luigi]

Hell and eternal punishment are the result when the Lord permanantly seperates Himself from the ungodly.
The ungodly will then be in total darkness as to how to proceed (Isaiah 60:2).
In contrast the godly will then receive a blessing of greater illumination (Isaiah 60:1).
The book of Enoch describes this as the faithful receiving sevenfold greater illumination.

Isaiah 60:2 For, behold, the darkness shall cover the earth, and gross darkness the people: but the Lord shall arise upon thee, and his glory shall be seen upon thee.
Isaiah 60:1 Arise, shine; for thy light is come, and the glory of the Lord is risen upon thee.

 

[garee]

No you don’t! That’s the point about a parable. It uses a set of images to reveal a deeper spiritual truth. The flames and the eternal suffering are the images, the truth is the separation from God and the loss of eternal life. This is such a desperately horrible possibility that the best way of conveying it is by images of eternal torment. There is no need to believe the fire is a literal fire anymore than the kingdom of God is a literal mustard seed.



This is ridiculous and shows very clearly the inherent weakness of your position. If you are going to be literal, you have to stick with it. No one on fire, can have a rational conversation. Your refusal to accept this demonstrates that you have no clue what you are talking about. It’s a parable, see, not a description of an actual event. It is illustrative of the irreversible nature of the decisions we make, or don’t make, on the earth.

To fear God is the beginning of wisdom and God certainly will separate the sheep from the goats and shut the goats out of his presence forever. Hell is that state. It is the destruction of the very soul of this person. The end of a destiny that could have lasted for eternity. It is an eternal condition whether or not the lost exist and are conscious or not.



No it would not! The lost are lost for all eternity whether they exist or not.
As for the words Kiltboy defines in his post, your interpretation, a complete loss of well-being that precludes annihilation is simply that - your interpretation.
I am sure you think you are defending God’s word and that it is essential to read apocalyptic texts and parables as literal truths, but essentially this is a matter of interpretation.
Should we take these warnings of eternal torment seriously? Yes. Do we have to insist that the lost are literally tortured day and night? No.
You seem to be genuinely concerned that the lost will not suffer enough. You seem to like the idea that others will suffer, but God doesn’t want anyone to perish, but all to come to repentance. He seems somewhat kinder than you.

Thanks for that.

Hell is a living suffering that men face every day or every time they harden their hearts when contemplating not doing the will of God .

Christ who cannot die offered a living sacrifice .The dead that has no spirit life knows nothing. This of course would include pain They will not be raised on the last day not having any new born again spirit . .There memory of things here are also gone and will never come to mind. Thank God its not our memory of them that does not disappear. When God corrupted this creation both the body and the spirit had the same expiration date.

Ecclesiastes 12:7 King James Version (KJV)Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

From my experience the key to understanding is how we define three days and three nights in the "heart of the earth" when looking at the word hell. It has the same meaning as "belly of the whale' seeing they must be reconciled to each other as two witnesses saying the same thing.

Mathew gives us the insurance to look to the spiritual unseen meaning in the sign.

Matthew 12:39 But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas:

It would seem the heart of the earth speaks of those who have no faith. not little but none. But rather their own imagination as in natural unconverted man .

Genesis 6:5 And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

Not under the earth with no oxygen to breath as in dead.

The three day heart of the earth or belly of the whale/hell as a living sacrifice began in the garden of Gethsemane

And said, I cried by reason of mine affliction unto the Lord, and he heard me; out of the belly of hell "cried I", and thou heardest my voice.Jonas 2:2

The dead cannot cry as did Jonas and the Son of man both cry by reason of the affliction, and not reason of death .

 

[Scrobulous]

Hell and eternal punishment are the result when the Lord permanantly seperates Himself from the ungodly.
The ungodly will then be in total darkness as to how to proceed (Isaiah 60:2).
In contrast the godly will then receive a blessing of greater illumination (Isaiah 60:1).
The book of Enoch describes this as the faithful receiving sevenfold greater illumination.

Isaiah 60:2 For, behold, the darkness shall cover the earth, and gross darkness the people: but the Lord shall arise upon thee, and his glory shall be seen upon thee.
Isaiah 60:1 Arise, shine; for thy light is come, and the glory of the Lord is risen upon thee.

I think you have it right.