Help a Catholic understand Protestantism better please

[Jackson123]

Hi notuptome.
Catholics do not believe that Christ is being re-crucified at every Mass. We believe that what happens at Mass and what happened on Calvary are one and the same.
Blessings.

I do do not understand how the crucifixion happen in every mass and you said crucifiction is happen once.

let me ask you question brother

do you believe crucifixion happen on this Sunday mass

do you believe crucifixion happen last Sunday mass?

if so, that is twice.

you believe what happen on Calvary is happen in mass am I correct?

what happen in Calvary is crucifixion.

 

[AllenW]

From an outsiders view it's like this:

Let's say you have a best friend named Pete and you name is Jack.
Every singly Saturday you meet:

Jack: Hi Pete.
Pete: Hi Jack.
Jack: Thank you for last Saturday.
Pete: Same to you.
Jack: I've just been working and exercising. You?
Pete: Lots of stuff.
Jack: Well OK, bye,
Pete: Bye

Exact same Words. Every time.

Sounds weird huh?

Lousy analogy.
Try again.

 

[WimpyPete]

Hello Wimmpy Pete

You said... """Some of us choose to pray the liturgy of the hours where 5 times a day we pray the psalms, have readings from the Old or New Testament as well as readings from the Church Fathers. Some of us choose to go to mass daily where we read at least 3 if not 4 readings from the Scriptures."""

And this is what one would expect from a religion which preaches works salvation.. People who believe that they must earn their place in eternity with God will pray 5 times a day ( like muslims do ) and go to church every day... There are a lot of religions around the world that teach that their adherents must Do do do to receive blessings from God.. It is basic human thinking.. If i am a good person who does good things then i will win others admonition and thus i will earn a place with them..

But as the scriptures say the thinking of men is not the same as the thinking of God .. What men think is right does not always align with what God thinks is right..

Proverbs 14: KJV
12 "There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death."



Isaiah 55: KJV
8 "¶ For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. {9} For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts."

So all the deeds of religion common in the religions of this world are not worth a pinch of salt to the Perfect LORD of all Existence when it comes to being with Him in Eternity.. Because all our righteousness are as filthy rags to Him..



Isaiah 64: KJV
5 "Thou meetest him that rejoiceth and worketh righteousness, those that remember thee in thy ways: behold, thou art wroth; for we have sinned: in those is continuance, and we shall be saved. {6} But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away."

So all these works of religion you are boasting about are not impressing me at all because i know that a lot of people who are works focused are on the path to eternal destruction Just like the Pharasse in the temple that Jesus spoke of..


Luke 18: KJV
10 "Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican. {11} The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican. {12} I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess. {13} And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner. {14} I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted."

So all your catholic acts of religiosity all your days of obligations are worth nothing if you are not totally relying on what Jesus did to save you on the cross.. If you add your works to the Mix to put the leaven of the pharisees into your bread and spoil it..

""If it would be of any interest to you, you would be free to inqure about any single Catholic doctrine ""

No thanks.. I am a former catholic.. I was born into a catholic family and was a catholic for 20 years.. I went to a nunnery primary school and to a Marist brothers high/ college, I even did 10 years service as an altar boy and i know the hail Mary by heart and all the liturgical responses in the mass.. having only missed one Sunday mass in my life as a catholic.. So i have heard enough of that religion and it's traditions of men.. And if i thought the catholic religion was Christian i would have stayed in that religion.. So of course i do not believe catholisism is Christian at all..


Your opening post was all about you wanting to learn and understand protestant theology.. But it seems that was just a ruse.. Your intention was really to come here and preach catholicism because that's what you have turned this thread into.. All about catholicism. If you want to start a thread to preach catholicism then ok do so.. But maybe you should focus on this thread with your original topic.. That's if you where ever truly interested in understanding the original topic... which i doubt..

Hah, so I guess I will take this as a "no" to my offer of reconciliation and peaceful dialog. If you aren't interested in discourse based on respect for one another then there is not much I can say. Clearly I have upset some people here and that was never my intention, but I have already apologized and so if that apology can't be accepted so that we can continue talking with fraternal charity then I don't see much reason to continue yelling at each other.

I'm sorry if you had a bad experience with the Catholic Church, I won't pretend there aren't bad Catholics nor that I am not often one of them, but I can only say that I think there is a lot of beauty and biblical wisdom in the Church that you have not been exposed to, and that many of your opinions about the Church are not accurate to what she actually professes. I realize I can't convince you of that though.

I came with every intention of just talking about Luther and Calvin and predestination, but if you look at the responses to my post it was everyone else who turned this thread into an opportunity to unleash every anti-Catholic hang up they have. I have only tried to give a few responses to what I consider serious misunderstandings of Catholicism, but I don't think a lot of people on this forum are serious about trying to accurately understand the Church. Thanks to the few people who have given well thought out responses and showed an interest in discussion.

 

[WimpyPete]

Not really. I worked and traveled with a JW for 8 years. As a consequence I went to several of his JW meetings with him. (Not much to do on the road, week after week.) What you just described is exactly the same things they say about their imitational robotic techniques of inculcation.

Just to briefly add to this discussion, it is probably worth noting that in response to the disciples request to learn to pray our Lord provided them with the set formulaic prayer of the 'Our Father'.

To the point can set formulas be dangerous or becoming meaningless? Sure, everything has the capability if we are not attentive or engaged. And I admire your concern that our prayer does not become meaningless, that is certainly valid. But I don't see any reason for being against set prayers in themselves, especialy when they are as well written as the prayers of the Missal which are heavily based on the Scriptures of that particular mass.

In the end the issue should not be whether the prayers are formulaic or repeated etc, it just comes down to whether they are good prayers to pray or not and whether or not we are actually trying to pray them with sincerity.

 

[Jackson123]

From an outsiders view it's like this:

Let's say you have a best friend named Pete and you name is Jack.
Every singly Saturday you meet:


Jack: Hi Pete.
Pete: Hi Jack.
Jack: Thank you for last Saturday.
Pete: Same to you.
Jack: I've just been working and exercising. You?
Pete: Lots of stuff.
Jack: Well OK, bye,
Pete: Bye

Exact same Words. Every time.

Sounds weird huh?

one day I read an article, aithat article tell a true story. A man kill his own father, police said, that man was doing meditation reapiting mantra, than he meet hie death grandpha, his grandpha instruct him to kill his father.

mantra is like a reapetative pray.

on that article said, base on study, if you keep repeat a same sentence so many time, it will make you logic numb, it will drop you logical thinking level. Then the devil pretend to be your grandpha or Mary come and ask you do a stupid thing. You do it because you logic not working anymore.

in the eastern religion or culture, repeatative mantra, meditation to empty yout mind/logic is very common.
it is nothing more than the strategy of the devil to prepare a situation where he can deceive us. Ofcource he not tell you the real reason, he will tell you that it have a good reason for doing repeatation.

 

[AllenW]

Just to briefly add to this discussion, it is probably worth noting that in response to the disciples request to learn to pray our Lord provided them with the set formulaic prayer of the 'Our Father'.

To the point can set formulas be dangerous or becoming meaningless? Sure, everything has the capability if we are not attentive or engaged. And I admire your concern that our prayer does not become meaningless, that is certainly valid. But I don't see any reason for being against set prayers in themselves, especialy when they are as well written as the prayers of the Missal which are heavily based on the Scriptures of that particular mass.

In the end the issue should not be whether the prayers are formulaic or repeated etc, it just comes down to whether they are good prayers to pray or not and whether or not we are actually trying to pray them with sincerity.

In my words I would say repetitive prayer.
Saying the rosary is repetitive prayer.
Yet I've been in many a group prayer, especially with the charismatic group, where they will say "Father", or "Holy Father" over and over so many times, you lose track of what the prayer is about.
I think it's just not right to be critical of others.

Matthew 6:7;
"And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words."

 

[WimpyPete]

Are you speaking for the catholic church or for yourself? It is evident that you are confused. They crucified Christ at Calvary and you said that is what they do in the mass.

The mass is a direct insult and shame to Christ. The work of Christ is finished and He is no longer on the cross.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Last thought before I sneak back to work, Catholics agree that Christ's work of salvation is perfect and provides the fullness of grace. No Catholic, who is following the Church's teachings, can disagree with that or ever hope to add to that work as if somehow needed to be supplemented. So on this point we can happily agree.

But Cyberman is right to ask, what is it that is finished?

I think we can all agree that Christ in His death, resurrection and sending of the Spirit has redeemed the world while at the same time saying that the world is still not fully redeemed; meaning, look at the world, it is a mess, there are still lots of problems. That doesn't mean what Christ did was insufficient, but rather that the fullness of the grace His paschal mysteries unleashed has not yet born its full fruit in the whole of creation. Each of us still suffers from sin, but we hope, that as Christ's life and grace continue to grow in us that we become ever more sanctified and grow "from glory to glory" (2 Cor 3:18).

How does the Mass factor into this? We all agree that Christ's singular act on the cross extends through all eternity correct? That is why we can still be redeemed by it in the present. Well, we simply believe that His death is intimatly tied to the Eucharist, which He gives us in anticipation of His death with the command to "do it" in rememberance of Him (remberance, zikeron or anamnesis, the Hebrew idea from Passover of making a past action present and real in the future). This obviously is but a short and inadequate explanation but it just gives you the idea that what we understand happening in the Mass is not a re-sacrificing of Christ, but rather that we are entering into this eternal act so as to receive it's full and complete grace ever more deeply into ourselves. This is how we would understand something like the thinking of St. Paul when he says "Now I rejoice in what I am suffering for you, and I fill up in my flesh what is still lacking in regard to Christ's afflictions, for the sake of his body, which is the church." (Col 1:24). It is not a lack in what Christ has accomplished but rather it is that the full effects of Christ's redemption have not yet been accomplished in the world, and won't be until the completion of the New Creation in the Heavenly Jerusalem.

 

[Willie-T]

How did some of you EVER get the idea that devout Jewish males who were already required to recite at least two prayers a day, and three or four times a day.... and had been doing so since childhood.... were asking to be taught how to pray?

They were asking Jesus to explain His personal doctrine to them, so they could be more attune to His way of thinking and believing..

 

[WimpyPete]

In my words I would say repetitive prayer.
Saying the rosary is repetitive prayer.
Yet I've been in many a group prayer, especially with the charismatic group, where they will say "Father", or "Holy Father" over and over so many times, you lose track of what the prayer is about.
I think it's just not right to be critical of others.

Matthew 6:7;
"And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words."

I'm not quite sure if you are agreeeing or disagreeing with what I said here, but for sure Matt. 6:7 is right, don't babble in prayer and pretend that the eloquence of your words will somehow win you God's hearing; God is not won over at all, He is already attentive to us with Fatherly care. But I don't see that as any condemnation of formula prayers (i.e. The our Father), or repeating prayers if that can be done prayerfully, which I think in the rosary it is if you pray it right

 

[AllenW]

I'm not quite sure if you are agreeeing or disagreeing with what I said here, but for sure Matt. 6:7 is right, don't babble in prayer and pretend that the eloquence of your words will somehow win you God's hearing; but I don't see that as any condemnation of repeating words in a meaningful way, which it would seem Jesus intends us to do with the "our Father"

I'm agreeing with you, just trying to show the difference.
I suppose I could of said it better.

 

[WimpyPete]

I'm agreeing with you, just trying to show the difference.
I suppose I could of said it better.

Oh ok heh. Yeah, we are capable of praying well or badly in many different ways

 

[wwjd_kilden]

Lousy analogy.
Try again.

why don't you show your brilliance in stead?

 

[WimpyPete]

How did some of you EVER get the idea that devout Jewish males who were already required to recite at least two prayers a day, and three or four times a day.... and had been doing so since childhood.... were asking to be taught how to pray?

They were asking Jesus to explain His personal doctrine to them, so they could be more attune to His way of thinking and believing..

That's an interesting take on it, I haven't heard that before, but I think since the text says "teach us how to pray" rather than "teach us your doctrine" I am inclined to give the benefit of the doubt to the former interpretation. If you could explain how you would justify the latter interpretation I would be willing to listen, but either way it doesn't change the fact that Jesus responds by giving them a prayer. True, a prayer which has His "doctrine" contained within it, but it still is phrased as a prayer. "Hallowed be thy name, thy kingdom come", they are petitions etc. Anyways I would be interested in the explanation you have, sorry I am not familiar with it

 

[WimpyPete]

It also is probably worth noting that the 2 prayers that they prayed every day were also formula prayers; formulas which expressed the very heart of their faith and thus are worth repeating and praying

 

[AllenW]

why don't you show your brilliance in stead?

Who, me?
I lost most of my brain cells years ago when I was on drugs.

 

[wwjd_kilden]

Ah. I think I lost mine falling down from things i was climbing.

my point was that God is not just Almighty God (though he is that too), He is also our father.
I think our father wants us to have son - dad / son- daughter talks, not only repetitions. (Goes for both Cahtolic prayers and protestants rattling off Our Lords Prayer)

 

[notuptome]

Roger wrote,



I did not say that Christ is re-crucified at each Mass. I did say that the Mass and what happened on Calvary are one and the same.



When did it finish?

Blessings.

What is finished though? I'm not trying to sound silly but it is important to determine what was finished.

The atonement was made and Gods justice was satisfied. No longer any condemnation for those who place their trust in Christ. Grace is complete and nothing is to be added.

The mass makes a mockery of the humiliation and sacrifice of Christ by keeping Him nailed to the cross. Like the angels at the empty tomb commented "He is not here for He is risen".

He is seated at the right hand of the Father until His enemies be made His footstool.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[notuptome]

Last thought before I sneak back to work, Catholics agree that Christ's work of salvation is perfect and provides the fullness of grace. No Catholic, who is following the Church's teachings, can disagree with that or ever hope to add to that work as if somehow needed to be supplemented. So on this point we can happily agree.

But Cyberman is right to ask, what is it that is finished?

I think we can all agree that Christ in His death, resurrection and sending of the Spirit has redeemed the world while at the same time saying that the world is still not fully redeemed; meaning, look at the world, it is a mess, there are still lots of problems. That doesn't mean what Christ did was insufficient, but rather that the fullness of the grace His paschal mysteries unleashed has not yet born its full fruit in the whole of creation. Each of us still suffers from sin, but we hope, that as Christ's life and grace continue to grow in us that we become ever more sanctified and grow "from glory to glory" (2 Cor 3:18).

How does the Mass factor into this? We all agree that Christ's singular act on the cross extends through all eternity correct? That is why we can still be redeemed by it in the present. Well, we simply believe that His death is intimatly tied to the Eucharist, which He gives us in anticipation of His death with the command to "do it" in rememberance of Him (remberance, zikeron or anamnesis, the Hebrew idea from Passover of making a past action present and real in the future). This obviously is but a short and inadequate explanation but it just gives you the idea that what we understand happening in the Mass is not a re-sacrificing of Christ, but rather that we are entering into this eternal act so as to receive it's full and complete grace ever more deeply into ourselves. This is how we would understand something like the thinking of St. Paul when he says "Now I rejoice in what I am suffering for you, and I fill up in my flesh what is still lacking in regard to Christ's afflictions, for the sake of his body, which is the church." (Col 1:24). It is not a lack in what Christ has accomplished but rather it is that the full effects of Christ's redemption have not yet been accomplished in the world, and won't be until the completion of the New Creation in the Heavenly Jerusalem.

You say one thing and then immediately follow it with a contradictory statement. You are simply amazing. The work of Christ is finished and then you immediately want to add to it with your unrighteousness.

Heb 13:20 Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant,

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[AllenW]

Ah. I think I lost mine falling down from things i was climbing.

my point was that God is not just Almighty God (though he is that too), He is also our father.
I think our father wants us to have son - dad / son- daughter talks, not only repetitions. (Goes for both Cahtolic prayers and protestants rattling off Our Lords Prayer)

I agree, wholeheartedly.
My wife and I pray best when we pray for someone in need.
Each person's needs are unique, thus your prayers are always different.

 

[Willie-T]

That's an interesting take on it, I haven't heard that before, but I think since the text says "teach us how to pray" rather than "teach us your doctrine" I am inclined to give the benefit of the doubt to the former interpretation. If you could explain how you would justify the latter interpretation I would be willing to listen, but either way it doesn't change the fact that Jesus responds by giving them a prayer. True, a prayer which has His "doctrine" contained within it, but it still is phrased as a prayer. "Hallowed be thy name, thy kingdom come", they are petitions etc. Anyways I would be interested in the explanation you have, sorry I am not familiar with it

Drop by any Synagogue, and ask a legitimate Rabbi about daily prayers in his religion.