Hermeneutics: Interpreting Scripture

[GWH]

Hmmm, okay then, so by that, you are saying you are in agreement with the verse as written - that salvation is only by/through the mercy of God and therefore completely out of the control of man - that man is but its recipient.

[Tit 3:5 KJV] 5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

I agree with the verse as written, but "completely out of the control of man" is not written.
That is your interpretation for some reason, which differs from the Baptist view for another reason.
IOW, God's mercy is resistible, obviously IMO.

 

[rogerg]

You did not notice the hyphen tween Romans 3:21 and 8:1,
which means the entire passage indicates cooperation with God's OS via faith.
Of course, the we come to the TULIP part in Romans 9:11-24.

Re cooperation: When you give someone a present, do you force them to open it or allow them to open it--or not?
And if they choose to open it, do you deem that to mean they worked for it or merely that they cooperated with your
act of giving it by receiving it?

You shouldn't judge or impose upon a gift in the spiritual realm the same characteristics as you would for those of the earthly/temporal realm - the two are incompatible. Actually, what makes the spiritual gift a gift, is that it isn't and can't be opened - that it is given already opened so to speak, otherwise, I guess doing so would make that a work.

[Heb 1:3 KJV] 3 Who being the brightness of [his] glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
[Heb 8:10 KJV] 10 For this [is] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
[Heb 8:12 KJV] 12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

Sorry, I'm not very smart so still not following your explanation of Romans versus Titus - too sophisticated for a simple mind much as mine to comprehend. So, you will need to break it down further if you want me to follow.

 

[rogerg]

I agree with the verse as written, but "completely out of the control of man" is not written.
That is your interpretation for some reason, which differs from the Baptist view for another reason.
IOW, God's mercy is resistible, obviously IMO.

It is in the "not by works of righteousness which we have done but according to his mercy he saved us"
If it is not by our works of righteousness but only according to His mercy, then it is apparent, that it is not, nor can it be,
under power or control of man.

 

[rogerg]

Yes, and both the initial response that resulted in salvation and subsequent responses as a result of salvation involve the non-meritorious condition of cooperation aka faith (as in post #530).

There is no "initial response" from man that results in salvation. Were that the case, then man would be turned into his own savior, but Jesus Christ alone is THE (singular) Savior, not man.

 

[studier]

Synthesis: God gives every sinner the ability/MFW to choose whether to accept Christ or not. (Deut. 30:19, cf. Acts 28:23-31)

I don't see the Synthesis. I see the assertion of one.

I see a good Antithesis in Acts28 in the language of men being convinced from testimony about Jesus from Scripture vs. not believing - so being convinced equates to believing.

Then, I get the attraction to Deut30 but as I've said before it is in context of men who have been freed from slavery, given God's Law and Covenant and being told in a second session re: Law & Covenant to choose life and blessing for living in Covenant.

The issue for me is that the Thesis is saying God gives men Faith as if they have no ability to believe and this argument could even be asserted in regard to Acts28.

Does God really give men Faith for them to be able to believe the Gospel? I'm not convinced that He does, so what do the Thesis verses actually say and mean?

 

[studier]

Yes, and I hope you both/y'all are comfortable with agreement regarding the kerygma as elaborated here next so we can move on to discussing the secondary/didachaic doctrine of election (apologies for not redoing the citations):

The normative way of stating the kerygma/GRFS in the NT is “Accept Christ Jesus as Lord” (as in 2CR 4:5 & CL 2:6). The main points of Christian orthodoxy implicit in this statement can be explained or elaborated as follows:

1. There is a/one all-loving and just Lord or God (DT 6:4, JN 3:16, 2THS 1:6), who is both able (2TM 1:12) and willing (1TM 2:3-4, EZK 33:11) to provide all morally accountable human beings salvation or heaven—a wonderful life full of love, joy and peace forever.
2. Human beings are selfish or sinful (RM 3:23, 2TM 3:2-4, CL 3:5), miserable (GL 5:19-21), and hopeless (EPH 2:12) or hell-bound at the judgment (MT 23:33 & 25:46) when they reject God’s salvation (JN 3:18, RM 2:5-11).
3. Jesus is God’s Messiah/Christ and incarnate Son, the way that God has chosen (JN 3:16, ACTS 16:30-31, PHP 2:9-11) of providing salvation by means of his atoning death on the cross for the payment of the penalty for the sins of humanity (RM 3:22-25 & 5:9-11), followed by his resurrection to reign in heaven (1CR 15:14-28).
4. Thus, every person who hears the NT Gospel needs to repent and accept God’s justification in Jesus as Christ/Messiah the Lord or Supreme Commander (LK 2:11, JN 14:6, ACTS 16:31), which means trying to obey His commandment to love one another (MT 22:37-40, JN 13:35, RM 13:9)—forever (MT 10:22, PS 113:2).
5. Then God’s Holy Spirit will establish a saving relationship with those who freely accept Him (RV 3:20) that will eventually achieve heaven when by means of persevering in learning Truth/God’s Word/sanctification everyone cooperates fully with His will (JN 14:6, 17&26, RM 8:6-17, GL 6:7-9, EPH 1:13-14, HB 10:36, 12:1, JM 1:2-4).

You're using this joint effort as a means to assert or insert your other work and I personally don't have an interest in reviewing it especially since you've never cleaned it up for this forum so the system can identify your verse references.

I'll pass on any agreement or disagreement or even review here.

 

[GWH]

You shouldn't judge or impose upon a gift in the spiritual realm the same characteristics as you would for those of the earthly/temporal realm - the two are incompatible. Actually, what makes the spiritual gift a gift, is that it isn't and can't be opened - that it is given already opened so to speak, otherwise, I guess doing so would make that a work.

[Heb 1:3 KJV] 3 Who being the brightness of [his] glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
[Heb 8:10 KJV] 10 For this [is] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
[Heb 8:12 KJV] 12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

Sorry, I'm not very smart so still not following your explanation of Romans versus Titus - too sophisticated for a simple mind much as mine to comprehend. So, you will need to break it down further if you want me to follow.

Re "You shouldn't judge or impose upon a gift in the spiritual realm the same characteristics as you would for those of the earthly/temporal realm - the two are incompatible.": Not at all, Jesus did it all the time.

Re "Actually, what makes the spiritual gift a gift, is that it isn't and can't be opened - that it is given already opened so to speak, otherwise, I guess doing so would make that a work.": Only per TULIPism. I shared that I was brought up as a OSAS Baptist;
what was your upbringing?

 

[GWH]

It is in the "not by works of righteousness which we have done but according to his mercy he saved us"
If it is not by our works of righteousness but only according to His mercy, then it is apparent, that it is not, nor can it be,
under power or control of man.

...unless man's cooperation is the will of God (1Tim. 2:3-4, Phil. 2:12-13).

Re "Sorry, I'm not very smart so still not following your explanation of Romans versus Titus - too sophisticated for a simple mind much as mine to comprehend. So, you will need to break it down further if you want me to follow.": Oh yes, I intend to do that, as one simple-minded man to another. Luckily, understanding GW is not rocket science, and we tend to make it harder than God intends it to be.

 

[GWH]

There is no "initial response" from man that results in salvation. Were that the case, then man would be turned into his own savior, but Jesus Christ alone is THE (singular) Savior, not man.

Not at all, opening a gift does not make the recipient the giver.

 

[GWH]

I don't see the Synthesis. I see the assertion of one.

I see a good Antithesis in Acts28 in the language of men being convinced from testimony about Jesus from Scripture vs. not believing - so being convinced equates to believing.

Then, I get the attraction to Deut30 but as I've said before it is in context of men who have been freed from slavery, given God's Law and Covenant and being told in a second session re: Law & Covenant to choose life and blessing for living in Covenant.

The issue for me is that the Thesis is saying God gives men Faith as if they have no ability to believe and this argument could even be asserted in regard to Acts28.

Does God really give men Faith for them to be able to believe the Gospel? I'm not convinced that He does, so what do the Thesis verses actually say and mean?

1. "I don't see the Synthesis. I see the assertion of one.": You have to look a little closer. My participation on UGE taught me the need to specify what I had always taken for granted. As a Baptist I was taught that sinners are saved by faith, but their quibbling has forced me to state in every post that God's grace is what enables souls to have faith/MFW, which may be placed in God or not.

2. "I see a good Antithesis in Acts28 in the language of men being convinced from testimony about Jesus from Scripture vs. not believing - so being convinced equates to believing.": Yes, I think I just cited that in one of my posts here today.

3. "Then, I get the attraction to Deut30 but as I've said before it is in context of men who have been freed from slavery, given God's Law and Covenant and being told in a second session re: Law & Covenant to choose life and blessing for living in Covenant.": Yes, but I see no reason to think this verse does not apply in a broader context too.

4. "The issue for me is that the Thesis is saying God gives men Faith as if they have no ability to believe and this argument could even be asserted in regard to Acts28.": Well, there are other verses in that vein.

5. "Does God really give men Faith for them to be able to believe the Gospel? I'm not convinced that He does, so what do the Thesis verses actually say and mean?": God gives men everything and every ability, including the ability to sin--or repent.

 

[GWH]

I forgot that we have not yet got around to discussing rogerg’s post #132, so let us do that now before discussing the TULIP point by point:

1a. Thesis: God knows that no one of themselves will/can be receptive to His word. He knows the heart of natural man is deceitful above all things. [Jer 17:9 KJV] 9 The heart [is] deceitful above all [things], and desperately wicked: who can know it?

1b. Antithesis: God went to a lot of trouble inspiring folks to write His word in Scripture, and Scripture says God wants everyone to learn GW and be saved per 1Tim. 2:3-4, “God our Savior wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.”

1c. Synthesis: God allows souls to sin from A&E to Judgment Day, but He loves humanity and provides the Way for souls to repent and be saved from a just hell.

[From the Kerygma thread] TULIPists are confused because they do not ponder the difference between intelligent animals and morally accountable humans, which the creation story implied but unfortunately did not make explicit. In Gen. 1:26-27 we are told that mankind was made in the image or likeness of God, so they could rule over animals, and in Gen. 2:16-17 we learn that man would die on the day they knew good and evil, which must mean spiritually since in Gen. 3:6-10 they did not die physically but only became fools/liars, but it is not until Gen. 3:21-24 that godlikeness is described as knowing good and evil.

God's provision of salvation or the covering of sin is portrayed by the sacrifice of animals in Gen. 3:21 (cf. Heb. 9:28), God's prevention of eternal death/damnation is indicated by not allowing A&E to live forever as sinners per Gen.3;22-24 (cf. 1Tim. 2:3-4), and God's condition for salvation is mentioned in Gen. 4:7, If you do what is right, will you not be accepted?" Paul explains what is right to do in Rom. 3:21-5:19, which is to believe Jesus is Messiah and in Christ's righteous atonement (Rom. 5:1-9).

After clearly explaining God's provision for the salvation of all if they believe, Paul muddied the water in Rom. 9:10-24 by saying God is just to hate Esau, and so UGE was born!

 

[rogerg]

..unless man's cooperation is the will of God (1Tim. 2:3-4, Phil. 2:12-13).

[1Ti 2:4 KJV] 4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

These verses explain the "all". Thought you were a big compare spiritual with spiritual guy?

[Jhn 6:37 KJV] 37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
[Jhn 6:45 KJV] 45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

 

[rogerg]

Re "You shouldn't judge or impose upon a gift in the spiritual realm the same characteristics as you would for those of the earthly/temporal realm - the two are incompatible.": Not at all, Jesus did it all the time.

there are several problems with your post:

1. you're not Jesus.
2. scripture already contains all the parables that God wanted in it. Yours isn't there.
3. how do you know from scripture that salvation comes as a gift wrapped that must be opened by its recipient?

 

[GWH]

there are several problems with your post:

1. you're not Jesus.
2. scripture already contains all the parables that God wanted in it. Yours isn't there.
3. how do you know from scripture that salvation comes as a gift wrapped that must be opened by its recipient?

1. Neither of us is Jesus.
2. Your parable is not in Scripture either.
3. Scripture indicating that grace must be received by recipients with open hearts include Matt. 13:14-15 and Acts 28:26-27.

Re "[1Ti 2:4 KJV] 4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. These verses explain the "all". Thought you were a big compare spiritual with spiritual guy?": I love that verse, which supports MFW.

Re "[Jhn 6:37 KJV] 37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
[Jhn 6:45 KJV] 45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.": I also love these verses, which indicate that Jesus will not reject anyone who seeks salvation, learns GW/the Gospel and accepts him as Lord.

 

[rogerg]

Your parable is not in Scripture either.

I didn't use or create a parable; I was expounding upon the following from a prior post. Notice the "I will" and "will I" below, they show that it is given solely by God and placed by him directly into the hearts and minds of the recipient - He remembers sin and iniquities no more, so there is therefore nothing remaining for a recipient to do or unwrap.

[Heb 10:16-17 KJV]
16 This [is] the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

3. Scripture indicating that grace must be received by recipients with open hearts include Matt. 13:14-15 and Acts 28:26-27.

That is not what those verses are saying. What they are actually saying is the exact opposite of that - that only those taught of the Father come to spiritual understanding.

[Mat 13:11 KJV] 11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.

 

[GWH]

I didn't use or create a parable; I was expounding upon the following from a prior post. Notice the "I will" and "will I" below, they show that it is given solely by God and placed by him directly into the hearts and minds of the recipient - He remembers sin and iniquities no more, so there is therefore nothing remaining for a recipient to do or unwrap.

[Heb 10:16-17 KJV]
16 This [is] the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

That is not what those verses are saying. What they are actually saying is the exact opposite of that - that only those taught of the Father come to spiritual understanding.

[Mat 13:11 KJV] 11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.

Okay, so neither of us created a parable, but if we did, they would not be in Scripture.
The "I will" phrases indicate that God initiates, and "this people's heart has become calloused" indicates that souls can ignore GW.
Paul indicated that now the mystery has been revealed in Rom. 16:25, Eph. 3:3-4 & Col. 1:26-27.

Do you have comments regarding the first part of your post #132? Do you have a better way to harmonize 1a&b?

1a. Thesis: God knows that no one of themselves will/can be receptive to His word. He knows the heart of natural man is deceitful above all things. [Jer 17:9 KJV] "The heart [is] deceitful above all [things], and desperately wicked: who can know it?"

1b. Antithesis: God went to a lot of trouble inspiring folks to write His word in Scripture, and Scripture says God wants everyone to learn GW and be saved per 1Tim. 2:3-4, “God our Savior wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.”

1c. Synthesis: God allows souls to sin from A&E to Judgment Day, but He loves humanity and provides the Way for souls to repent and be saved from a just hell.

 

[rogerg]

The "I will" phrases indicate that God initiates,

No, it is not "initiates" - it is that He PLACES, as those verses clearly tell us. Neither "initiates", nor anything like "initiates", is found with the New Covenant. God does it all - the only part left for those saved is of becoming its beneficiaries and that through God's exceedingly great mercy and grace through Jesus Christ. We contribute nothing whatsoever but to be given it - that's what makes Christ THE Savior, and salvation, by grace.

To be honest, I'm getting tired of this back and forth, so at this point, I'm bowing out

 

[GWH]

No, it is not "initiates" - it is that He PLACES, as those verses clearly tell us. Neither "initiates", nor anything like "initiates", is found with the New Covenant. God does it all - the only part left for those saved is of becoming its beneficiaries and that through God's exceedingly great mercy and grace through Jesus Christ. We contribute nothing whatsoever but to be given it - that's what makes Christ THE Savior, and salvation, by grace.

To be honest, I'm getting tired of this back and forth, so at this point, I'm bowing out

The apparent problem is that you are playing ping-pong while we are endeavoring to conduct a systematic study,
which means harmonizing Scriptures cited by both sides of the issue rather than ignoring half,
as you seem contented to do, so I guess studier and I will impersonate you as best we can,
but we hope you TULIPers will be open-hearted some day and be willing to engage in congenial discussion.
(Perseverance in LGW can indeed be tiring.)
Happy trails!