Hitler the seventh head of the beast

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Pilgrimshope

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Sep 2, 2020
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#61
Yes but that does not make him "the seventh head of the beast".
it seems There’s always wicked men in power on earth in some ways. Hitler just was another wave of persecution on Jews like Rome began in 67-70 ad and Babylon even before that. It has occurred for two thousand years there are wicked rulers in the earth always it seems.
 

Pilgrimshope

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Sep 2, 2020
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#62
It doesn't mean he "Marveled" at anything, or "Admired" anything per se as the word implies via our understandings of that word. I think its more the case of John being IN AWE of what Jesus was showing him, he had a great Wonderment of these visions so to speak.

won·der·ment
/ˈwəndərmənt/

noun
1.) a state of awed admiration or respect.

2.) "Corbett shook his head in silent wonderment"
“And Jesus saith unto him, I will come and heal him.

The centurion answered and said, Lord, I am not worthy that thou shouldest come under my roof: but speak the word only, and my servant shall be healed. For I am a man under authority, having soldiers under me: and I say to this man, Go, and he goeth; and to another, Come, and he cometh; and to my servant, Do this, and he doeth it.

When Jesus heard it, he marvelled, and said to them that followed, Verily I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭8:7-10‬ ‭
 

ewq1938

Well-known member
Oct 18, 2018
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#63
why that moment, when he sees the beast and the great whore? why choose that moment to be stunned in awe?
The words used mean to "wonder" which in modern English would be closer to curiosity. We have to remember that while John was shown plain images of things happening, he also was shown very artistic and exaggerated things like a massive snake with multiple heads. That's the metaphoric vision rather than a plain vision. It's like a cartoonist depicting the Nazi's attacking Poland using a drawing of a large wolf with big fangs jumping on Poland portrayed by a small prey animal rather than a drawing of tanks and planes and men on the ground shooting and taking over Poland as it happened in real life. Sometimes John saw real life when he saw crowds of people or angels or the elders worshiping God. Other times he saw artist portrayals of fantastic, imaginary creatures with multiple heads that rose out of the water.
 

Rondonmon

Senior Member
May 13, 2016
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#64
Hitler was just another mirror of persecution towards Judaism ("the woman who gave birth to the male child" the Messiah) There have been other persecutions throughout history against Jews and genuine Christians as well, less recent, but not less severe. For instance the Catholic church with its inquisitions and the Roman Empire towards the Jews and early Christians. Hitler was one of the latest atrocities to add in a raw. He was a type of Antichrist but was not the one described in Revelation, neither were all those type of Antichrists who came before. But all had something in common. " Babylon the great, drunk of the blood of the Saints". Hitler wanted to reinstate a super European State like the Roman Empire and Catholicism is nothing else than a reminiscent of the Roman Empire itself, implementing similar ideology, agenda. "The seventh king who is to come and remain for a little while" may as well be a new Roman Emperor ruling during the three and half years of pre and post tribulation. But that time hasn't come yet, thought it seem to be very close.
The end time Beast will have ZERO to do with the RCC. It all happens after the Rapture anyway, thus anyone not taken will understand these "RCC Leaders" were chumps themselves. People who put forth the RCC idea and/or even the Islamic Idea just do not understand prophecy. The Beast was/will be a Gentile Government who dominates the Mediterranean Sea Region whilst Israel are an entity living in the land.

Thus this MAN whom Europe (10 as COMPLETE Europe) give their power unto in Rev. 17:12, will then turn around and name ANOTHER Beast (Man with Dominion/POWER) t rule over ALL Peoples Faith/Religion Choices as in you Chose to Worship the First Beast or else you die !!

Revelation 13:11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth(Earth/Land = Israel); and he had two horns like a lamb (who is the highest Religious Leader in Israel? The High Priest), and he spake as a dragon(He is not of God thus he is of Satan). 12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed. 13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,

14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live. 15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

So, the Second Beast arises from THE LAND, not the Sea of Gentiles, he's a Jewish High Priest, we know Satan loves to defile what God put forth as holy, and the High Priest would come into the holy of hollies and splatter the blood of the sacrifice on the presence of the Lord. Just like Antiochus Epiphanes, this end time Beast will appoint a Jewish High priest who will then be given ALL POWER over ALL Religions and he will mandate Beast worship or death.

We can see the groundwork for this in Rev. 17:16, where no one in these Harlot Religions are allowed to live on, the Harlot is thus KILLED-OFF by the 10 kings (Europe) in league with these 2 Beast Powers over Government and Religion, thus Scarlet and Purple now make perfect sense, these two colors/dyes (google it) were very, very, very, very expensive to make, thus the Royals & Religious Orders of all religions wore these two colors, so when God cites the "Harlot" as having on or being dressed in Purple and Gold, He is saying that she represents ALL Harlot False Religions of All time, and she also represents False Governance, God is our only true governance, any other Government is doom to fail in reality, because mankind is evil in heart.

So, look for ONE MAN whom Europe allows to consolidate power unto himself, he will go forth conquering Israel and ALL of the Mediterranean Sea Region, then he will appoint a Jewish High Priest over WORLD RELIGIOJN, and the 2nd Beast will mandate the Worship of the First Beast. A simpler way to grasp this is DOMIION = Power thus that Beast was an Animalistic like power over a TERRITORY so to speak. So, lets drop this jargon and say what's going to really happen.

This MAN with the E.U.'s backing will conquer Israel and all of her immediate neighbors AND all of North Africa. He will them appoint the Jewish High Priest as his "Religious Tsar" of the whole area, so to speak and he will then give this ONE MAN all power over all men via Religion and this Religious Tsar will mandate Anti-Christ Worship or DEATH. It is literally that simple.
 

Pilgrimshope

Well-known member
Sep 2, 2020
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#65
The beasts of Daniel are 4 hegemons with 7 heads. In revelation, the beast with the 10 horns are a composite of the Daniel beasts (thus the 7 heads are as per Daniel). The beast from the earth is the last hegemon (with 1 head). The 8 heads are from hegemons (beasts) , are the only ones documented in the Book of Revelation.

Only through the wisdom from God (Scriptures) can these visions be interpreted, not from the knowledge of men.
The beasts ( heads of the beast ) are world rulers who have a time and reign. According to the curses of Moses law bieng broken

Babylon would first rise up over israel , nebucadnezzar of Babylon is actually identified as the first head in another vision of his dream , as well as the following heads also in yet another of Daniels visions also Are given identifiers

so this is another addition to the same things concerning the beasts

spoken by Daniel to nebucadnezzar of Babylon

“This image's head was of fine gold, his breast and his arms of silver, his belly and his thighs of brass, His legs of iron, his feet part of iron and part of clay.

Thou, O king, art a king of kings: for the God of heaven hath given thee a kingdom, power, and strength, and glory. And wheresoever the children of men dwell, the beasts of the field and the fowls of the heaven hath he given into thine hand, and hath made thee ruler over them all. 1 Thou art this head of gold.

And 2 after thee shall arise another kingdom inferior to thee,

and another 3 third kingdom of brass, which shall bear rule over all the earth.

And 4 the fourth kingdom shall be strong as iron: forasmuch as iron breaketh in pieces and subdueth all things: and as iron that breaketh all these, shall it break in pieces and bruise.

And whereas thou sawest the feet and toes, part of potters' clay, and part of iron, the kingdom shall be divided;

but there shall be in it of the strength of the iron, forasmuch as thou sawest the iron mixed with miry clay. And as the toes of the feet were part of iron, and part of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong, and partly broken. And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay.

And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.”
‭‭Daniel‬ ‭2:32-33, 37-44‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Daniels visions are like layering of the same things adding more detail each time. So later he sees the same things again

“Daniel spake and said, I saw in my vision by night, and, behold, the four winds of the heaven strove upon the great sea. And four great beasts came up from the sea, diverse one from another.

The first was 1 like a lion, and had eagle's wings: I beheld till the wings thereof were plucked, and it was lifted up from the earth, and made stand upon the feet as a man, and a man's heart was given to it.

And behold 2 another beast, a second, like to a bear, and it raised up itself on one side, and it had three ribs in the mouth of it between the teeth of it: and they said thus unto it, Arise, devour much flesh.

After this I beheld, and lo another,3 like a leopard, which had upon the back of it four wings of a fowl; the beast had also four heads; and dominion was given to it.

After this I saw in the night visions, and behold 4 a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns.

I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things. I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame. As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time.

I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.”
‭‭Daniel‬ ‭7:2-8, 11-14‬ ‭KJV‬‬


the latter one in chapter 7 is offering more of the heavenly details but in chapter two we’re seeing the events as from earths view interpreting nebucadnezzar the first beasts head.

if you layer Daniels visions accordingly it shows Babylon , Assyria , Greece resulting in Rome after the divisions of Greece Rome would be the third kingdom and having the four heads beginning with Greece ending in Rome the sixth head ruling in johns time

so when John sees the vision five of the beasts heads are already gone Rome is in power and one more was to yet come.

“And there are seven kings: five are fallen,

and one is,

and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.


And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition. And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭17:10-12‬ ‭

then a latter day reign of the anti christ 8th king and ten horns. After the seventh king came to power and rule and overcame the earth.

Daniel sees an earlier account John sees it during the sixth heads reign just before the seventh head arose. Same vision different perspective

Daniel spoke and saw the kingdom being established also a lot of what John saw Daniel saw earlier visions of it
 

Rondonmon

Senior Member
May 13, 2016
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#66
“And Jesus saith unto him, I will come and heal him.

The centurion answered and said, Lord, I am not worthy that thou shouldest come under my roof: but speak the word only, and my servant shall be healed. For I am a man under authority, having soldiers under me: and I say to this man, Go, and he goeth; and to another, Come, and he cometh; and to my servant, Do this, and he doeth it.

When Jesus heard it, he marvelled, and said to them that followed, Verily I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭8:7-10‬ ‭
Which doesn't mean HE WAS IN THE DARK.........That is the point I was making, John was not completely in the dark on these things. When looking at what the modern day word marvel means people think QUESTON MARK, but as you showed here, it doesn't really mean that. I have done a DEEP DIVE on this word, and its actually sort of a cross between Admiration and Amazement (thus my word AWE). Of course John did not ADMIRE the Harlot and the 7 Headed Beast she rode, but he was in AWE/Amazement/Wonderment of what he was seeing, but it also has a hint of a question mark, but it is used in different ways and different words come forth from this Greek word, even in the SAME VERSE !!

Reulation 17:6 And 2532 I saw 1492 z5627 the x3588 woman 1135 drunken 3184 z5723 with 1537 the x3588 blood 129 of the x3588 Saints, 40 and 2532 with 1537 the x3588 blood 129 of the x3588 Martyrs 3144 of Iesus: 2424 and 2532 when I saw 1492 z5631 her, 846 I wondred 2296 z5656 with great 3173 admiration. 2295


#2296 θαυμάζω thaumazo {thou-mad'-zo}

from G2295; TDNT - 3:27,316; v
—Greek Word Study (Transliteration-Pronunciation Etymology & Grammar)

1) to wonder, wonder at, marvel
2) to be wondered at, to be had in admiration
—Thayer's (New Testament Greek-English Lexicon)

From G2295; to wonder; by implication to admire:—admire, have in admiration, marvel, wonder.
—Strong's (Greek Dictionary of the New Testament)

Admiration on the other hand is pretty much the same thing at the end of the verse, SEE BELOW: thauma was the original root-word.

#2295 θαῦμα thauma {thos'-mah}

apparently from a form of G2300; TDNT - 3:27,316; n n
—Greek Word Study (Transliteration-Pronunciation Etymology & Grammar)

1) a wonderful thing, a marvel
2) wonder
2a) to wonder [with great wonder i.e.] exceedingly
—Thayer's (New Testament Greek-English Lexicon)
Apparently from a form of G2300; wonder (properly concrete; but by implication abstract):—admiration.
—Strong's (Greek Dictionary of the New Testament)
#2295.

So, the LAST WORD in the verse also can be seen as a GREAT WONDER, exceedingly so.

So, instead of Admiration, TRY THIS, this helped me to finally grasp the meaning.

Essentially John WONDERED with GREAT WONDERMENT......but instead we get he wondered with Great Admiration, which doesn't really make sense because admiration doesn't really fit, WONDERMENT or AWE does fit, it DESCRIBES what Wonder John had, its was a GREAT WONDERMENT, or simply, John was AMAZED by the wonders he saw.
 

Rondonmon

Senior Member
May 13, 2016
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#67
The words used mean to "wonder" which in modern English would be closer to curiosity. We have to remember that while John was shown plain images of things happening, he also was shown very artistic and exaggerated things like a massive snake with multiple heads. That's the metaphoric vision rather than a plain vision. It's like a cartoonist depicting the Nazi's attacking Poland using a drawing of a large wolf with big fangs jumping on Poland portrayed by a small prey animal rather than a drawing of tanks and planes and men on the ground shooting and taking over Poland as it happened in real life. Sometimes John saw real life when he saw crowds of people or angels or the elders worshiping God. Other times he saw artist portrayals of fantastic, imaginary creatures with multiple heads that rose out of the water.
I will go with that as being close enough, John had a Curiosity of what he was AMAZED at.
 

ewq1938

Well-known member
Oct 18, 2018
4,084
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#68
I will go with that as being close enough, John had a Curiosity of what he was AMAZED at.
It makes sense because the angel did explain everything about the woman. My point was more to make sure people do not confuse this amazement with any form of respect or misunderstand what "a wonderful thing" meant in old English.

Rev 17:7 And the angel said unto me, Wherefore didst thou marvel? I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and ten horns.
 
Jul 24, 2021
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#69
No, they don't. Daniel has 4 beasts, 2 with one head, a 3rd with 4 heads, and a 4th beast with 1 head.
Revelation 13 has 1 beast with 7 heads, and a second beast called the false prophet who has 1 head.

A lot of the same language is used but there is no match concerning the amount of beast and how many heads each has.
Daniel's vision was during his dreaming.
Daniel 7 - The 4 beasts were presented sequential. Are the 4 beasts actual beasts? No, the represent successive hegemons on the earth. Daniel 7:17
Daniel 2 - A statue of 5 elements are presented (gold, silver, brass, iron and clay) . Are they just a statue? No, the represent successive hegemons on the earth. Dan 2:38 indicates babylon as the first.
Daniel was prophesying about empires in the future of the babylonian captivity

Consider the logic
Revelation presents a beast that has all characteristics of Daniel 7. If Daniel 2 (1 statue) is consistent with Daniel 7 then why is the Revelation beast (1 beast) not consistent with Daniel 7? It is the same vision from a different point of view.

Not to mention that in Daniel the 4th beast is destroyed and the first 3 beasts remain alive while when the two beasts of Revelation 13 are destroyed, there is no other beast alive except the dragon which is satan. Again, no match.

Furthermore, Daniel says three times that 3 of the 10 horns are removed but that does not happen in Revelation.
Daniel and John prophesied the future. The death of Daniel's beast is sometime later than Daniel in babylon. The death of the beast and the false prophet is in the future of Revelation 19 which is sometime later that Daniel in babylon. Temporally it looks to me to match. Topologically it is a match, see above.

History (fulfilled prophecy) indicates the babylonians were conquered by persians, then in turn by macedonia, then in turn by rome. Why do you need 6 heads to linger past the rome head? Remember Rev 17:10-11 states that of the 7 heady mountains 5 have fallen, 1 is and 1 is not yet come and there is 8th. There is no need for lingering heads or ignoring the heads provided.

As for the 10 horns and the chief stout one which uproots 3 in Daniel vs the beast with 10 horns and a whore sitting on top in Revelation, is the same vision from different perspectives. There is no need to create a menagerie of fabulous beasts so guest writers can expound on the Scriptures, it is not hollywood.

Yes it is:

Rev 17:9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.

Yes and the hills were areas of land where Roman states (like small kingdoms) were located. The hills (mountains) are still not 7 people.
What exactly are you saying? Are they heads, mountains, peoples, kings? I like the image of 10 kings sitting on top of 7 kings, myself - what do you do with the sharp crowns?
 
Jul 24, 2021
448
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#70
The beasts ( heads of the beast ) are world rulers who have a time and reign. According to the curses of Moses law bieng broken

Babylon would first rise up over israel , nebucadnezzar of Babylon is actually identified as the first head in another vision of his dream , as well as the following heads also in yet another of Daniels visions also Are given identifiers

so this is another addition to the same things concerning the beasts

spoken by Daniel to nebucadnezzar of Babylon

“This image's head was of fine gold, his breast and his arms of silver, his belly and his thighs of brass, His legs of iron, his feet part of iron and part of clay.

Thou, O king, art a king of kings: for the God of heaven hath given thee a kingdom, power, and strength, and glory. And wheresoever the children of men dwell, the beasts of the field and the fowls of the heaven hath he given into thine hand, and hath made thee ruler over them all. 1 Thou art this head of gold.

And 2 after thee shall arise another kingdom inferior to thee,

and another 3 third kingdom of brass, which shall bear rule over all the earth.

And 4 the fourth kingdom shall be strong as iron: forasmuch as iron breaketh in pieces and subdueth all things: and as iron that breaketh all these, shall it break in pieces and bruise.

And whereas thou sawest the feet and toes, part of potters' clay, and part of iron, the kingdom shall be divided;

but there shall be in it of the strength of the iron, forasmuch as thou sawest the iron mixed with miry clay. And as the toes of the feet were part of iron, and part of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong, and partly broken. And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay.

And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.”
‭‭Daniel‬ ‭2:32-33, 37-44‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Daniels visions are like layering of the same things adding more detail each time. So later he sees the same things again

“Daniel spake and said, I saw in my vision by night, and, behold, the four winds of the heaven strove upon the great sea. And four great beasts came up from the sea, diverse one from another.

The first was 1 like a lion, and had eagle's wings: I beheld till the wings thereof were plucked, and it was lifted up from the earth, and made stand upon the feet as a man, and a man's heart was given to it.

And behold 2 another beast, a second, like to a bear, and it raised up itself on one side, and it had three ribs in the mouth of it between the teeth of it: and they said thus unto it, Arise, devour much flesh.

After this I beheld, and lo another,3 like a leopard, which had upon the back of it four wings of a fowl; the beast had also four heads; and dominion was given to it.

After this I saw in the night visions, and behold 4 a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns.

I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things. I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame. As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time.

I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.”
‭‭Daniel‬ ‭7:2-8, 11-14‬ ‭KJV‬‬


the latter one in chapter 7 is offering more of the heavenly details but in chapter two we’re seeing the events as from earths view interpreting nebucadnezzar the first beasts head.

if you layer Daniels visions accordingly it shows Babylon , Assyria , Greece resulting in Rome after the divisions of Greece Rome would be the third kingdom and having the four heads beginning with Greece ending in Rome the sixth head ruling in johns time

so when John sees the vision five of the beasts heads are already gone Rome is in power and one more was to yet come.

“And there are seven kings: five are fallen,

and one is,

and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.


And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition. And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭17:10-12‬ ‭

then a latter day reign of the anti christ 8th king and ten horns. After the seventh king came to power and rule and overcame the earth.

Daniel sees an earlier account John sees it during the sixth heads reign just before the seventh head arose. Same vision different perspective

Daniel spoke and saw the kingdom being established also a lot of what John saw Daniel saw earlier visions of it
The heads of the cheetah have been accounted. Daniel 8 indicates the meaning of 4 heads and 4 wings of the cheetah.
Dan 8:20The ram which thou sawest having two horns are the kings of Media and Persia.21And the rough goat is the king of Grecia: and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king. 22Now that being broken, whereas four stood up for it, four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation, but not in his power.

The vision is sequential. The cumulative count is 7. There are no verses to layer the rome head as a part of the greek spectrum of heads.

There is no big A antichrist within the Scriptures. There are many conflated verses.
Only God can resurrect and perform true miracles. The only talent satan has, is lying. Why would the son of the liar be any different.
 

lamad

Well-known member
Apr 14, 2021
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#71
The biggest problem is Daniel 11:21-45 is not one man. Verses 21-33 maybe 34 is Antiochus, verses 35 and maybe even 34 is the 2000 plus year transition from Antiochus, through the Churh Age (MANY are Purged and made White says verse 35, even until the end) then verse 36 starts the Anti-Christ and he runs through verse 45. Jesus is the Man in Linen in Daniel 12 so he's with Gabriel and the other angel in this vision from Daniel chapter 10 through Dan. 12. So, Jesus/Gabriel is telling us many are made white, THEN COMES THE END, then the King of the North is the End Time Anti-Christ.

Likewise, in Matt. 24 in verse 6 Jesus warns the END (70th week) is not yet, then he tells them when the end will come, Verses 4-6 is the 70 AD events, verses 7-14 is the Church Age and the Disciples destiny of being all killed, save John, Jesus warns then to endure until the end [of their lives, as Paul stated, it's a Marathon]. Then in verse 14 were are again clearly told what brings the end, when the Gospel shall be preached unto ALL THE WORLD, then the end (70th week) will come.

Notice how beautifully both fit together when one stops to think it through !! In Daniel 11:35 many are PURGED and made WHITE, all the way to the END, because as he tells Daniel that is for a time [yet to be] appointed. Then in Matt. 24, it says the same thing, the Gospel must e preached unto the ends of the world (PURGING and making people WHITE), and only THEN will the END (70th Week) come, so they are both identical references when one knows what they are looking for.

I have done an Exegesis on the whole chapter (Daniel 11) that shows who each king was, how he came to power. who helped, what the palace intrigue was in every case.

As per Hitler, I don't think anyone agrees brother. When the Anti-Christ comes to power a great asteroid has to hit (Rev. 8) which destroys 1/3 of the world, to a certain degree or affects 1/3 of the world, in a major way.
I disagree on "the end." I think the end is when Jesus returns and ends the 42 months of authority of the Beast. The gospel is preached to the world by ANGELS as shown in Rev. 14, right after the midpoint of the week.
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
10,885
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#72
According Alberto Rivera, hitler work for vatican

I quote part of article that give a clue what Alberto say correct


Enlarge this image
In this file photo dated September 1945, Pope Pius XII raises his right hand in a papal blessing at the Vatican. Pope Francis opened the Vatican archives on Pope Pius XII in March.
Anonymous/AP
Vatican officials have always insisted Pope Pius XII did everything possible to save Jewish lives during World War II. But many scholars accuse him of complicit silence while some 6 million Jews were killed in the Holocaust.
"Pope Pius XII thought that he should not take sides in the war," says Brown University professor David Kertzer, "and that therefore he should not be criticizing either side of the war, including the Nazis."
Kertzer has written extensively about popes and the Jews. He won the 2015 Pulitzer Prize for his book The Pope and Mussolini, which traced the rise of fascism in Europe. And he was among the first to have access to the Pius XII archives when the Vatican opened them in March, after decades of requests from scholars.

WORLD
Vatican Opens Archives Of World War II-Era Pope Pius XII
Kertzer has just published his early findings in an article for The Atlantic. The newly unearthed documents — some imbued with anti-Semitic language — are shedding light on the pontiff's behavior during the Nazis' massacre of Jews. They also reveal the pope's role in preventing orphans of Holocaust victims from being reunited with their relatives.
The historian found two documents that reveal an intense debate was under way in the Vatican in 1943, when the Nazi occupiers of Rome rounded up more than 1,000 Jews and detained them in a military college 800 yards from St. Peter's Square before packing them off to the Auschwitz concentration camp. As the German ambassador to the Vatican reported to Nazi leader Adolf Hitler, the roundup occurred under the pope's "very windows." Only 16 of the deportees survived.
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The first document newly found by Kertzer is a letter written by the pope's longtime Jesuit emissary to Italy's Fascist regime, the Rev. Pietro Tacchi Venturi, who urged the pope to make a private, oral protest to the German ambassador. He suggested Pius tell the ambassador that there is no reason to use violence against Italian Jews because the racial laws instituted five years earlier by Benito Mussolini's dictatorial regime were "sufficient to contain the tiny Jewish minority within its proper limits."
Pius asked for further advice from his expert on Jewish affairs, Monsignor Angelo Dell'Acqua.

Enlarge this image
A marble plaque over the main entrance of the Vatican Archives reads in Latin "Secret Vatican Archive." The Vatican's library on Pope Pius XII and his record during the Holocaust opened to researchers in March.
Gregorio Borgia/AP
"The second document that I found," Kertzer tells NPR, "is Dell'Acqua's thoroughly anti-Semitic document explaining why he thought the pope should not, in fact, speak out."
The prelate thought it would be too embarrassing to protest anti-Semitic measures when, over many centuries, ruling popes had confined Jews to ghettos and had forbidden them from practicing professions.
And, says Kertzer, Dell'Acqua thought the emissary's letter was overly sympathetic to the Jews.
"He said Jews have caused problems ... do threaten a healthy Christian society. So why should the Church be speaking out for them when he says they haven't protested against the Nazis killing Christians?"
Pius never spoke out against Nazis killing Christians, Kertzer suggests, because he didn't want to offend many German Catholics who were ardent Nazis.
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And so, again, Pius said nothing.
Dell'Acqua later became cardinal vicar of Rome.
Questions about Pius' wartime role began to grow more widely starting in 1963 in response to allegations raised by the German playwright Rolf Hochhuth in his play The Deputy. And still vivid memories in Rome of Pius' behavior during the Nazi occupation of Rome have stymied efforts to beatify him.
The Finaly brothers
Kertzer's findings also cover the case of two Jewish orphans secretly baptized in France after their parents were deported to Auschwitz.
The case of the Finaly brothers, Robert and Gérald, was the most serious case affecting French Jews since the Dreyfus affair —in which a Jewish French Army captain was wrongly convicted of treason — a half-century earlier. It dragged on for years and became a cause celebre. Nuns, monks and a mother superior were put in jail for kidnapping when they defied court rulings to hand over the boys to their surviving relatives.
French Church officials invoked a centuries-old doctrine claiming the baptized boys were now Catholics and must not be raised by Jews. In 1953, when media coverage of the affair was turning against the Church, the archbishop of Lyon asked the pope for guidance.
"This is when the Vatican began its involvement behind the scenes, because as it continued over the next months to issue instructions on how the Church should proceed, the Vatican is telling them to resist the law," says Kertzer. "They also specified to be sure that no one knows that these orders are coming from the Vatican or from the pope."
In 1945, the Finaly brothers were two of the estimated 1,200 French Jewish orphans in France alone in non-Jewish families or institutions. Across Europe, Kertzer believes, there were thousands more — secretly baptized and never reunited with their Jewish relatives. He writes in his Atlantic article that on Sept. 21, 1945, the secretary-general of the World Jewish Congress, Léon Kubowitzki, went to the Vatican to appeal for help in locating Jewish orphans. Pius replied, "We will give it all our attention."
Ultimately, the Finaly boys were reunited with their relatives in Israel where they now live in retirement. Following his discoveries in the archives, Kertzer contacted Robert Finaly, who described to him what it was like when he and Gérald were being shuffled around in hiding in various convents.
"They were made to fear Jews," Kertzer says. "They weren't told that their family was trying to reclaim them. And they were taught that Jews were damned by God and would live in eternal torment in hell when they died. They were scared stiff of Jews, of being Jewish."
The Vatican's mindest
The historian says his findings help fill many of the behind-the-scenes gaps at the Vatican during the war and its aftermath. But there is one question, says Kertzer, Pope Pius XII never seemed to ask:
"How could so many thousands and hundreds of thousands, if not millions of Germans and their allies take part in the mass murder of Jewish children and old people and so forth, still thinking they were good Catholics?"
Kertzer says his findings reveal that the horrors of the Holocaust did not temper the Vatican's anti-Semitic mindset.
That mindset was not repudiated until 20 years after the war when, with the Second Vatican Council, the Roman Catholic Church formally rejected the centuries-old Catholic doctrine that held Jews responsible for the death of Christ. That ushered in a new era of Catholic-Jewish dialogue — and ultimately the opening of the Pius XII archives.
And, Kertzer says there's still much more to be learned from the newly available trove of documents.:rolleyes:
 

Pilgrimshope

Well-known member
Sep 2, 2020
6,102
2,054
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#73
Which doesn't mean HE WAS IN THE DARK.........That is the point I was making, John was not completely in the dark on these things. When looking at what the modern day word marvel means people think QUESTON MARK, but as you showed here, it doesn't really mean that. I have done a DEEP DIVE on this word, and its actually sort of a cross between Admiration and Amazement (thus my word AWE). Of course John did not ADMIRE the Harlot and the 7 Headed Beast she rode, but he was in AWE/Amazement/Wonderment of what he was seeing, but it also has a hint of a question mark, but it is used in different ways and different words come forth from this Greek word, even in the SAME VERSE !!

Reulation 17:6 And 2532 I saw 1492 z5627 the x3588 woman 1135 drunken 3184 z5723 with 1537 the x3588 blood 129 of the x3588 Saints, 40 and 2532 with 1537 the x3588 blood 129 of the x3588 Martyrs 3144 of Iesus: 2424 and 2532 when I saw 1492 z5631 her, 846 I wondred 2296 z5656 with great 3173 admiration. 2295


#2296 θαυμάζω thaumazo {thou-mad'-zo}

from G2295; TDNT - 3:27,316; v
—Greek Word Study (Transliteration-Pronunciation Etymology & Grammar)

1) to wonder, wonder at, marvel
2) to be wondered at, to be had in admiration
—Thayer's (New Testament Greek-English Lexicon)

From G2295; to wonder; by implication to admire:—admire, have in admiration, marvel, wonder.
—Strong's (Greek Dictionary of the New Testament)

Admiration on the other hand is pretty much the same thing at the end of the verse, SEE BELOW: thauma was the original root-word.

#2295 θαῦμα thauma {thos'-mah}

apparently from a form of G2300; TDNT - 3:27,316; n n
—Greek Word Study (Transliteration-Pronunciation Etymology & Grammar)

1) a wonderful thing, a marvel
2) wonder
2a) to wonder [with great wonder i.e.] exceedingly
—Thayer's (New Testament Greek-English Lexicon)
Apparently from a form of G2300; wonder (properly concrete; but by implication abstract):—admiration.
—Strong's (Greek Dictionary of the New Testament)
#2295.

So, the LAST WORD in the verse also can be seen as a GREAT WONDER, exceedingly so.

So, instead of Admiration, TRY THIS, this helped me to finally grasp the meaning.

Essentially John WONDERED with GREAT WONDERMENT......but instead we get he wondered with Great Admiration, which doesn't really make sense because admiration doesn't really fit, WONDERMENT or AWE does fit, it DESCRIBES what Wonder John had, its was a GREAT WONDERMENT, or simply, John was AMAZED by the wonders he saw.
uh yeah I was just showing the use of the world elsewhere to help discern its meaning

honesty I think the focus is far too much on the term marveled my only intent was to show the same term elsewhere to help with discernment
 

Pilgrimshope

Well-known member
Sep 2, 2020
6,102
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#75
The heads of the cheetah have been accounted. Daniel 8 indicates the meaning of 4 heads and 4 wings of the cheetah.
Dan 8:20The ram which thou sawest having two horns are the kings of Media and Persia.21And the rough goat is the king of Grecia: and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king. 22Now that being broken, whereas four stood up for it, four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation, but not in his power.

The vision is sequential. The cumulative count is 7. There are no verses to layer the rome head as a part of the greek spectrum of heads.

There is no big A antichrist within the Scriptures. There are many conflated verses.
Only God can resurrect and perform true miracles. The only talent satan has, is lying. Why would the son of the liar be any different.
ah yeah thanks for your ideas on the subject. I think a lot of people have different ideas also to consider that make much more sense according to what’s actually there
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
10,885
1,217
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#76
Hitler was a type, a foreshadowing of what the Antichrist will be like; he wasn't the Antichrist. The Antichrist will be a political and military figure. He will be accompanied by the false prophet.

Let me ask you, if the Pope is the Antichrist, what need would there be for a false prophet? If the Pope is the vicar of Christ on earth, why would he need a false prophet? Wouldn't the Pope himself be the false prophet?
And pope plus 12 was a type of foreshadowing false prophet/ last pope
 

Rondonmon

Senior Member
May 13, 2016
1,193
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#77
Daniel's vision was during his dreaming.
Daniel 7 - The 4 beasts were presented sequential. Are the 4 beasts actual beasts? No, the represent successive hegemons on the earth. Daniel 7:17
Daniel 2 - A statue of 5 elements are presented (gold, silver, brass, iron and clay) . Are they just a statue? No, the represent successive hegemons on the earth. Dan 2:38 indicates babylon as the first.
Daniel was prophesying about empires in the future of the babylonian captivity

Consider the logic
Revelation presents a beast that has all characteristics of Daniel 7. If Daniel 2 (1 statue) is consistent with Daniel 7 then why is the Revelation beast (1 beast) not consistent with Daniel 7? It is the same vision from a different point of view.
Correct, Daniel was looking forward in time, John is looking from the 70th week as written in the book of Revelation, BACK IN TIME. thus we get all of the Beasts in reverse order, EXCEPT the one he is dealing with last....We get in reverse order via the 7 Headed Beast arising out of the Sea with 10 horns, thus tat might as well say Rome(6th Head) was the reason the 7 Headed Best WENT AWAY, and then the Anti-Christ (7th Head) who arises amidst the 10 (Europe) is he reason the Beast's Mortal Wound is them healed. Thus we get Daniels 4 Beasts & the Anti-Christ and 10 Horns (which actually makes 5 Beasts). Thu these 5 AND the unspoken of Egypt and Assyria make 7 Heads.


Rev. 13:1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads(Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Persia, Greece, Rome AND the 666 Man/Little Horn/Anti-Christ) and ten horns(4. Europe today PLUS Old Rome), and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy. 2 And the beast which I saw(KEY, its ALL Reversed) was like unto a leopard(3. Greece), and his feet were as the feet of a bear(2. Persia), and his mouth as the mouth of a lion(1. Babylon): and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.

NOW THE EXPLAINATION TO THE AB0VE BEASTS REVIVAL:

3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death(Rome); and his deadly wound was healed(Anti-Christ): and all the world wondered after the beast(All Europe at least, much of the word is in flames).

4 And they worshipped the dragon(NOT Literally, this can be God's perspective of Humanism/Atheism, they don't worship Satan per se, but they do by not believing on God, hence they were not Raptured)) which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast(These people do worship men/Mankind however, since they laugh at God having created them, thus they think men are their own gods) saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?

5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.

So, John looks BACKWARDS through time in his visions. Daniel was looking FORWARD in his visions.

Daniel and John prophesied the future. The death of Daniel's beast is sometime later than Daniel in babylon. The death of the beast and the false prophet is in the future of Revelation 19 which is sometime later that Daniel in babylon. Temporally it looks to me to match. Topologically it is a match, see above.
Babylon died as a Beast Power the day of the Mene Mene Tekel Handwriting on the wall, Daniel was still alive, but all the Beasts lived on for a time and a season after they ceased being Beasts according to Dan. 7:12 and so out of all the Beasts all are still around except for Babylon whom ceased being an entity. The Beast of Rev. 13 is from God's perspective, God is SIMPLY SAYING THIS:

There were 7 Nations (Gentile powers) who had dominion/ruled over Israel, they are Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Persia, Greece and Rome in the past, when Israel was dispersed the world over she was not an entity in God's eyes, He says as much in Ezekiel 37, He saw Israel as Dead Men's Bones, at that time Israel could have no Gentile Power ruling over them. The Church came along and Jesus stated that the Gates of Hell will not prevail over my Church, its funny that people think it is a coincidence that Apollyon gets locked up in the Bottomless Pit at this same time, OR, MAYBE NOT.....Its just actual events coming to pass as God foretold them. The Beast received a Mortal Wound in that it went away, Apollyon was locked in the pit, no gentile nation has ruled over Israel for nigh 2000 years, and the Church of Jesus Christ has flourished for near 2000 years.

History (fulfilled prophecy) indicates the babylonians were conquered by persians, then in turn by macedonia, then in turn by rome. Why do you need 6 heads to linger past the rome head? Remember Rev 17:10-11 states that of the 7 heady mountains 5 have fallen, 1 is and 1 is not yet come and there is 8th. There is no need for lingering heads or ignoring the heads provided.

As for the 10 horns and the chief stout one which uproots 3 in Daniel vs the beast with 10 horns and a whore sitting on top in Revelation, is the same vision from different perspectives. There is no need to create a menagerie of fabulous beasts so guest writers can expound on the Scriptures, it is not hollywood.
Babylon was conquered by Persia, then went away later, but Greece didn't conquer Babylon, they conquered Persia. The reason God has 7 Heads is he is simply PAINTING A PICTURE of World History via IMAGES of Dominating Animals. People overthink it tbh. That Picture is of Gentile Rule over Israel in ALL OF HISTORY. Its not "Lingering Rule" its just like you or me writing the History of America, we wouldn't just write about Trump/Biden would we? We would start with George Washington and his defeat of England, then tell about Thomas Jefferson, Abraham Lincoln, FDR and Pervert Bill :)ROFL:).............catch my drift?

The 5 who have fallen is obvious (Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Persia and Greece) the ONE who was is of course Rome and Rome will receive a Mortal Wound, then the one who is to COME LATER will be a MAN not a Nation thus he gets mans number which is 666 (his number means the LAST BEAST is ONE MAN, who never passes hos kingdom on like al the others, Dan. 7:11 and Rev. 19:20 both say this). The 8th is Apollyon, he was the prince of Persia in Dan. 10 who resisted Michael for 21 days. He has NO CROWNS, he is the Scarlet Colored Beast of Rev. 17. He was over all of these Gentile Nations an d the placed in the pit, he will be released at the 1st Woe, thus HE WAS.....IS NOT.....YET IS.

It is indeed the SAME BEAST from a different perspective, that impresses me tbh, most do not grasp one is FORWARD LOOKING and the other is BACKWARD LOOKING. BUT....The reason we are given the 7 is God is telling us ALL HISTORY, that's all, but in a picture-gram of sorts.

What exactly are you saying? Are they heads, mountains, peoples, kings? I like the image of 10 kings sitting on top of 7 kings, myself - what do you do with the sharp crowns?
The 7 are Kingdoms but God REDUCES them to Kings who ACTUALLY FALL, the reason he does this is to show us the LAST BEAST is the ONLY BEAST who both ARISES & FALLS, thus he's not a Nation but a MAN, think about it, he gets the moniker the Little Horn as in MAN RULER instead of a Nation Ruling.
 

Rondonmon

Senior Member
May 13, 2016
1,193
156
63
#78
I disagree on "the end." I think the end is when Jesus returns and ends the 42 months of authority of the Beast. The gospel is preached to the world by ANGELS as shown in Rev. 14, right after the midpoint of the week.
Jesus is telling the Disciples their fate also. The END is the 70th week. That's why Jesus goes from the END in verse 14 straight into the AoD and the 70th week. So, the Last Week ENDS Satan's rule over mankind, better known as Babylon the Great. Jesus' 100 year rule is not THE END, that is the beginning.
 
Jul 24, 2021
448
74
28
#79
ah yeah thanks for your ideas on the subject. I think a lot of people have different ideas also to consider that make much more sense according to what’s actually there
You should consider only what is the Scriptures. Conjectures are add to the scriptures. Forbidden.
 
Jul 24, 2021
448
74
28
#80
Correct, Daniel was looking forward in time, John is looking from the 70th week as written in the book of Revelation, BACK IN TIME. thus we get all of the Beasts in reverse order, EXCEPT the one he is dealing with last....We get in reverse order via the 7 Headed Beast arising out of the Sea with 10 horns, thus tat might as well say Rome(6th Head) was the reason the 7 Headed Best WENT AWAY, and then the Anti-Christ (7th Head) who arises amidst the 10 (Europe) is he reason the Beast's Mortal Wound is them healed. Thus we get Daniels 4 Beasts & the Anti-Christ and 10 Horns (which actually makes 5 Beasts). Thu these 5 AND the unspoken of Egypt and Assyria make 7 Heads.


Rev. 13:1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads(Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Persia, Greece, Rome AND the 666 Man/Little Horn/Anti-Christ) and ten horns(4. Europe today PLUS Old Rome), and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy. 2 And the beast which I saw(KEY, its ALL Reversed) was like unto a leopard(3. Greece), and his feet were as the feet of a bear(2. Persia), and his mouth as the mouth of a lion(1. Babylon): and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.

NOW THE EXPLAINATION TO THE AB0VE BEASTS REVIVAL:

3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death(Rome); and his deadly wound was healed(Anti-Christ): and all the world wondered after the beast(All Europe at least, much of the word is in flames).

4 And they worshipped the dragon(NOT Literally, this can be God's perspective of Humanism/Atheism, they don't worship Satan per se, but they do by not believing on God, hence they were not Raptured)) which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast(These people do worship men/Mankind however, since they laugh at God having created them, thus they think men are their own gods) saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?

5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.

So, John looks BACKWARDS through time in his visions. Daniel was looking FORWARD in his visions.



Babylon died as a Beast Power the day of the Mene Mene Tekel Handwriting on the wall, Daniel was still alive, but all the Beasts lived on for a time and a season after they ceased being Beasts according to Dan. 7:12 and so out of all the Beasts all are still around except for Babylon whom ceased being an entity. The Beast of Rev. 13 is from God's perspective, God is SIMPLY SAYING THIS:

There were 7 Nations (Gentile powers) who had dominion/ruled over Israel, they are Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Persia, Greece and Rome in the past, when Israel was dispersed the world over she was not an entity in God's eyes, He says as much in Ezekiel 37, He saw Israel as Dead Men's Bones, at that time Israel could have no Gentile Power ruling over them. The Church came along and Jesus stated that the Gates of Hell will not prevail over my Church, its funny that people think it is a coincidence that Apollyon gets locked up in the Bottomless Pit at this same time, OR, MAYBE NOT.....Its just actual events coming to pass as God foretold them. The Beast received a Mortal Wound in that it went away, Apollyon was locked in the pit, no gentile nation has ruled over Israel for nigh 2000 years, and the Church of Jesus Christ has flourished for near 2000 years.



Babylon was conquered by Persia, then went away later, but Greece didn't conquer Babylon, they conquered Persia. The reason God has 7 Heads is he is simply PAINTING A PICTURE of World History via IMAGES of Dominating Animals. People overthink it tbh. That Picture is of Gentile Rule over Israel in ALL OF HISTORY. Its not "Lingering Rule" its just like you or me writing the History of America, we wouldn't just write about Trump/Biden would we? We would start with George Washington and his defeat of England, then tell about Thomas Jefferson, Abraham Lincoln, FDR and Pervert Bill :)ROFL:).............catch my drift?

The 5 who have fallen is obvious (Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Persia and Greece) the ONE who was is of course Rome and Rome will receive a Mortal Wound, then the one who is to COME LATER will be a MAN not a Nation thus he gets mans number which is 666 (his number means the LAST BEAST is ONE MAN, who never passes hos kingdom on like al the others, Dan. 7:11 and Rev. 19:20 both say this). The 8th is Apollyon, he was the prince of Persia in Dan. 10 who resisted Michael for 21 days. He has NO CROWNS, he is the Scarlet Colored Beast of Rev. 17. He was over all of these Gentile Nations an d the placed in the pit, he will be released at the 1st Woe, thus HE WAS.....IS NOT.....YET IS.

It is indeed the SAME BEAST from a different perspective, that impresses me tbh, most do not grasp one is FORWARD LOOKING and the other is BACKWARD LOOKING. BUT....The reason we are given the 7 is God is telling us ALL HISTORY, that's all, but in a picture-gram of sorts.

The 7 are Kingdoms but God REDUCES them to Kings who ACTUALLY FALL, the reason he does this is to show us the LAST BEAST is the ONLY BEAST who both ARISES & FALLS, thus he's not a Nation but a MAN, think about it, he gets the moniker the Little Horn as in MAN RULER instead of a Nation Ruling.
A prophecy is always in the future. Seeing the past is called history.
Rev 22:6And he said unto me, These sayings are faithful and true: and the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel to shew unto his servants the things which must shortly be done. 7Behold, I come quickly: blessed is he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book.

Both Daniel and John are Prophets.

No conjecturing needed. The 8th head is the false prophet (beast of the earth).
There are 7 heads enumerated in Daniel 7. The characteristics of Rev 13 beast links it back to Daniel 7 description of babylon, medo-persia, greece(cassander), seleucid(seleucus), egypt(ptolemy),asia minor(lysimachus) and rome. What happened to rome? In 330 AD, constantinople was made the seat of the eastern empire. Where is constantinople? In Asia minor - lysimachus. How long did the byzantine civilization last? ~1500 AD.

Daniel only spoke of nations and tyrants as pertaining to jews (chosen people of God) while John spoke of nations and tyrants as pertaining to Christians (faithful in Christ).