Hotan de elthe ho parakletos John 15:26

OldOrthodoxChristian · Nov 29, 2011

Hotan [2752] de elthe [2064] ho parakletos [3875], on [3739] ego [1473] pempso [3992] humin [5213] para [3844] tou patros [1607], to pneuma [1565] tes aletheias [3140] ho p4012[ para [1700] tou patros [5210] ekporeuetai [3140], ekeinos [3754, 575] marturesei peri emou [746, 3326/ 1700 2075]

when And comes the Paraclete, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit -- of truth who from the Father proceeds, that One will witness concerning Me [page 301].

The Interlinear Greek-English NEW TESTAMENT With Strong's Concordance Numbers Above Each Word. Jay P. Green, Sr., General Editor and Translator. Peabody, MA: Hendrickson Publishers, 1985.

MaggieMye · Nov 29, 2011

What is your point?

shroom2 · Nov 29, 2011

MaggieMye said:

He is completely obsessed with the "filioque".

Filioque - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

OldOrthodoxChristian · Nov 29, 2011

shroom2 said:

Sadly, the truth is that some people slander those who mention Filioque and falsely accuse them of "obsession". Slander against the truth is the truth! If John 15:26 does not matter, then John 3:16 doesn't matter, either. There is nothing that Jesus said in the 4 Gospels that does not matter! Or do you disagree and say it doesn't matter. Something isn't false just because I repeat in many, many times! Is your point that you're completely uninterested in something Jesus says? Take it up with the Lord; God bless you. Don't you love and hear the voice of Christ the Master?

shroom2 · Nov 29, 2011

OldOrthodoxChristian said:

Sadly, the truth is that some people slander those who mention Filioque and falsely accuse them of "obsession". Slander against the truth is the truth! If John 15:26 does not matter, then John 3:16 doesn't matter, either. There is nothing that Jesus said in the 4 Gospels that does not matter! Or do you disagree and say it doesn't matter. Something isn't false just because I repeat in many, many times! Is your point that you're completely uninterested in something Jesus says? Take it up with the Lord; God bless you. Don't you love and hear the voice of Christ the Master?

I am interested in the verse. I am puzzled by your obsession with that one verse.

OldOrthodoxChristian · Nov 30, 2011

shroom2;593509 said:

Shroom: I am puzzled by your neglect and indifference to that one verse. What I mean is I'm puzzled by your indifference to Orthodox Tradition regarding that one verse. Without Orthodox Tradition, we can't make sense of John 15:26. I'm puzzled why you falsely accuse me of obsession. That's like saying John 3:16 isn't the heart of the Bible's teaching on Jesus and salvation. In Erie Scott Harrington

RachelBibleStudent · Nov 30, 2011

OldOrthodoxChristian said:

on another thread you were saying john 15:26 was obvious and proved clearly that the filioque clause was wrong...

now you are saying we need eastern orthodoxist tradition to make sense of the verse...

which is it?

OldOrthodoxChristian · Nov 30, 2011

RachelBibleStudent said:

Dear Rachel:

No. There's no such thing as "orthodoxist". Perhaps you prefer using a language other than English,

Rachel! LOL!

We need Eastern Orthodox tradition to understand why John 15:26 doesn't say "and the Son". It is not

It is not enough for some people to just accept Christ's Words and believe what He says. They insist on

knowing why, and they want to try to prove their Filioque doctrine, even when the Bible truly says

otherwise. They, like Thomas Aquinas, are wise in their own eyes, and they slander and neglect the

Orthodox Saints of Christ's One Church! Perhaps at first, in Toledo, Spain, in 589 AD, they were

motivated by a good reason, to protest Arianism. But you don't combat a heresy by introducing another

heresy, which is what Filioque dogma is: destructive heresy! The good people of Toledo, Spain,

however, never went any further than Toledo, and never tried to introduce the Filioque clause into

the Ecumenical Creed of 381 AD.

You will not understand why saying "and the Son" is a "semi-Sabellianism" unless you read these 2 books:

Saint Photios. (1983). On the Mystagogy of the Holy Spirit. Holy Transfiguration Monastery,

translators. Boston, MA: Studion Publishers.

Saint Photios. (1987). The Mystagogy of the Holy Spirit. Joseph P. Farrell, Ph.D., translator.

Brookline, MA: Holy Cross Orthodox Press.

These are the 2 very most interesting books available in the English language!

God bless you if you read these books! Amen.

In Erie PA November 2011 AD Scott R. Harrington

RachelBibleStudent · Nov 30, 2011

OldOrthodoxChristian said:

Dear Rachel:

No. There's no such thing as "orthodoxist". Perhaps you prefer using a language other than English,

Rachel! LOL!

We need Eastern Orthodox tradition to understand why John 15:26 doesn't say "and the Son". It is not

It is not enough for some people to just accept Christ's Words and believe what He says. They insist on

knowing why, and they want to try to prove their Filioque doctrine, even when the Bible truly says

otherwise. They, like Thomas Aquinas, are wise in their own eyes, and they slander and neglect the

Orthodox Saints of Christ's One Church! Perhaps at first, in Toledo, Spain, in 589 AD, they were

motivated by a good reason, to protest Arianism. But you don't combat a heresy by introducing another

heresy, which is what Filioque dogma is: destructive heresy! The good people of Toledo, Spain,

however, never went any further than Toledo, and never tried to introduce the Filioque clause into

the Ecumenical Creed of 381 AD.

You will not understand why saying "and the Son" is a "semi-Sabellianism" unless you read these 2 books:

Saint Photios. (1983). On the Mystagogy of the Holy Spirit. Holy Transfiguration Monastery,

translators. Boston, MA: Studion Publishers.

Saint Photios. (1987). The Mystagogy of the Holy Spirit. Joseph P. Farrell, Ph.D., translator.

Brookline, MA: Holy Cross Orthodox Press.

These are the 2 very most interesting books available in the English language!

God bless you if you read these books! Amen.

In Erie PA November 2011 AD Scott R. Harrington

i made up the term 'orthodoxist'...because the 'eastern orthodox' churches are not orthodox...

jesus said he would send the holy spirit...so the holy spirit proceeds from him as well as from the father...

MaggieMye · Nov 30, 2011

What is "filioque"??

OldOrthodoxChristian · Nov 30, 2011

RachelBibleStudent;594186 said:

So, RachelBibleStudent, you really are not a Bible student. If you

were, you would know that "proceed" means "proceed", and "send"

means "send", and that "send" does not mean "proceed". Simple,

Biblical logic.

But you're sadly mistaken. The Orthodox are orthodox. Your

statements don't make any sense, because you are following some

tradition other than the Bible. You're not following the Word of God.

You're not listening to Jesus Christ in John 15:26. The Father and the

Son's sending of the Holy Spirit within time (temporal mission) is not

the same thing as the eternal procession, the proceeding of the Holy

Spirit from the Father alone in Eternity. Failing to understand this

leads to Dualism: two principles in the Godhead: Father and Son fused

together, with the Holy Spirit left out and subordinated. Thus 2 Gods:

the Father and the Son. Polytheism. If the Holy Spirit is equal to the

Father and the Son in all things, then He must also proceed from

Himself. That is the inescapable logical conclusion of the Filioque.

John 15:26 proves the Orthodox churches are indeed orthodox. The

Western churches (Protestant and Catholic together) follow Augustine

of Hippo (354-430+). Hans Kung admits this in his book, "The

Catholic Church: A Short History". Modern Library.

God save us. Amen. In Erie PA Scott R. Harrington

OldOrthodoxChristian · Nov 30, 2011

MaggieMye;594191 said:

Dear Maggie:

Filioque is Latin for "and the Son", as in "ex Patre Filioque", from the

Father "and the Son". John 15:26 says "who proceeds from the

Father". Filioque adds the words "and the Son" to the words of our

Lord Jesus Christ, and says something JESUS CHRIST DID NOT SAY.

Filioque is NOT IN THE BIBLE, nor in CHURCH TRADITION.

God bless you. In Erie PA Scott R. Harrington

RachelBibleStudent · Nov 30, 2011

OldOrthodoxChristian said:

the bible makes no distinction between the 'temporal mission' and 'eternal procession' of the holy spirit...

also the bible does not say anywhere that if the holy spirit proceeds from the father and the son then the father and son would become two separate Gods or be fused together or that the holy spirit would be subordinated...

this stuff is just more of the eastern orthodoxist hyper-cataphatic theology i noted before...wild extrapolation from human knowledge in an effort to describe God as if he was a laboratory animal...

OldOrthodoxChristian · Nov 30, 2011

RachelBibleStudent said:

Dear Rachel. You are thinking too much (over thinking this)! What Scripture says "who proceeds from the Son"? If you can't find a Scripture, Filioque is false. It really is simple as that! God bless you! In Erie PA Scott R. Harrington
PS Also, if the Spirit really is equal to the Father and the Son, and if the Spirit proceeds from the Son, then it must also be true that the Spirit proceeds from Himself. If He does not, He is, then, not equal to the Son, for He doesn't have something that the Son has. Also, the Bible DOES NOT SAY that the temporal mission of the Spirit and the eternal procession of the Spirit are THE SAME THING.

OldOrthodoxChristian · Nov 30, 2011

RachelBibleStudent;594229 said:

"The two mysteries

"The Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and is sent into the world

by the Son (John 15:26). We have, then, two functions: the

procession and the mission.

"1. The Procession"

"Each Person of the Holy Trinity has His own characteristic: The

Father is "Unbegotten". Christ is "Begotten". He is, in other words,

born eternally from the Father. And the Holy Spirit "Proceeds";

proceeds, that is, eternally from the Father. Both the nativity of the

Son and the procession of the Holy Spirit are mysteries. We do not

know exactly what this procession is, nor what precisely this

nativity is, as the great master of dogma of our Church John the

Damascan declared. Saint Gregory the Theologian agrees with him.

"Who proceeds from the Father" (John 15:26):

The verb "proceeds" is in the present tense and expresses the eternal

procession of the Holy Spirit. The procession is something which

happens within the Holy Trinity and for the Holy Trinity.

"2. The Mission"

"Whom I shall send to you" (John 15:26).

"When the verb "proceeds" is in the present tense, the verb "shall send"

is in the future. It expresses something that will happen in the future,

in other words on the day of Pentecost, when the Lord was to send the

All-Holy Spirit to His disciples. "When the Comforter comes (into the

world) Whom I shall send to you" (John 15:26). In other words,

while the mission is something which happens within the Holy Trinity,

it does not happen for the Holy Trinity but for the world.

"In the "procession", the "center" is the Father, and in the "mission"

it is the Son. The procession happens outside time, the "mission"

happened within time. The procession happens for the Holy Trinity,

the mission for the world. This is abundantly clear from the words of

the Lord quoted above". [pp. 44-45: Archimandrite Vassilios

Bakoyannis. (1998). "ONE LORD, ONE FAITH" An introduction

to comparative Christian doctrine" English translation by W.J.

Lillie. Patras, Greece: Apostle Andrew Press.].

God save us all.

The word of the Lord is pure, making wise the simple. (cf. Psalm 19,

KJV). Amen.

In Erie PA November 2011 AD Scott R. Harrington

jimmydiggs · Nov 30, 2011

Random question:
Am I the only one who when reading Scott's posts, notice that they have an odd style about them? Only stretch about half way horizontally.

RachelBibleStudent · Nov 30, 2011

OldOrthodoxChristian said:

"The two mysteries

"The Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and is sent into the world

by the Son (John 15:26). We have, then, two functions: the

procession and the mission.

"1. The Procession"

"Each Person of the Holy Trinity has His own characteristic: The

Father is "Unbegotten". Christ is "Begotten". He is, in other words,

born eternally from the Father. And the Holy Spirit "Proceeds";

proceeds, that is, eternally from the Father. Both the nativity of the

Son and the procession of the Holy Spirit are mysteries. We do not

know exactly what this procession is, nor what precisely this

nativity is, as the great master of dogma of our Church John the

Damascan declared. Saint Gregory the Theologian agrees with him.

"Who proceeds from the Father" (John 15:26):

The verb "proceeds" is in the present tense and expresses the eternal

procession of the Holy Spirit. The procession is something which

happens within the Holy Trinity and for the Holy Trinity.

"2. The Mission"

"Whom I shall send to you" (John 15:26).

"When the verb "proceeds" is in the present tense, the verb "shall send"

is in the future. It expresses something that will happen in the future,

in other words on the day of Pentecost, when the Lord was to send the

All-Holy Spirit to His disciples. "When the Comforter comes (into the

world) Whom I shall send to you" (John 15:26). In other words,

while the mission is something which happens within the Holy Trinity,

it does not happen for the Holy Trinity but for the world.

"In the "procession", the "center" is the Father, and in the "mission"

it is the Son. The procession happens outside time, the "mission"

happened within time. The procession happens for the Holy Trinity,

the mission for the world. This is abundantly clear from the words of

the Lord quoted above". [pp. 44-45: Archimandrite Vassilios

Bakoyannis. (1998). "ONE LORD, ONE FAITH" An introduction

to comparative Christian doctrine" English translation by W.J.

Lillie. Patras, Greece: Apostle Andrew Press.].

God save us all.

The word of the Lord is pure, making wise the simple. (cf. Psalm 19,

KJV). Amen.

In Erie PA November 2011 AD Scott R. Harrington

none of this stuff is in the bible...

it is all hyper-cataphatic theology from someone's imagination...

OldOrthodoxChristian · Nov 30, 2011

RachelBibleStudent;594291 said:

Not so, Rachel, not so! "Who proceeds from the Father" IS in the Bible. "And the Son" is NOT in the Bible.
Why do you keep on failing to understand that?
And, there is no such thing as "hyper-cataphatic" theology.
That's from your spurious imagination. Sorry!
In Erie PA Scott R. Harrington

Search

Hotan de elthe ho parakletos John 15:26

OldOrthodoxChristian

Banned

MaggieMye

Guest

shroom2

Banned

OldOrthodoxChristian

Banned

shroom2

Banned

OldOrthodoxChristian

Banned

RachelBibleStudent

Guest

OldOrthodoxChristian

Banned

RachelBibleStudent

Guest

MaggieMye

Guest

OldOrthodoxChristian

Banned

OldOrthodoxChristian

Banned

RachelBibleStudent

Guest

OldOrthodoxChristian

Banned

OldOrthodoxChristian

Banned

jimmydiggs

Guest

RachelBibleStudent

Guest

OldOrthodoxChristian

Banned