How can God justify the ungodly and still maintain His integrity to His law?

[Roberth]

Originally Posted by onlinebuddy

Being born with a selfish human (bent-to-self) nature is a condition for which man is not guilty and hence will not be condemned.

No, death is condemnation. We die because we share Adam's life indwelt with our bent-to-self. You can deny this all you want, but the Bible is not on your side on this one.

Gen 3:17 To Adam he (God) said, "Because you listened to your wife and ate from the tree about which I commanded you, 'You must not eat of it,' "Cursed is the ground because of you; through painful toil you will eat of it all the days of your life.
18 It will produce thorns and thistles for you, and you will eat the plants of the field.
19By the sweat of your brow you will eat your food until you return to the ground, since from it you were taken; for dust you are and to dust you will return."

Adam transgressed. The folks between Adam's fall and Moses, where the law was given, were sinners, but they didn't know they were sinners because the law hadn't been posted. Yet they were dying. Why?

Rom 5:13 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned.

Where? In Adam. Adam's sin was a corporate sin. It effected the human race, not because they transgressed, but because "in Adam" they received his fallen life indwelt with iniquity.

Therefore, when Christ as God was united to our corporate humanity, that needed redeeming, He too came under the death sentence, but not for transgression. Christ never sinned, but because He shared in the multiplication of Adam's life, through Mary, He took a condemned life. So taking our fallen humanity upon Himself didn't make Him a sinner.

 

[Roberth]

An infant cannot be "condemned" because of Adam's sin.

Why do some infants die prematurely? They aren't immortal. Why? Because they share Adam's fallen life. If you want to pretend that is not condemnation, have at it.

Again, if it weren't for Christ's intervention an infant's death would be eternal. That would mean no heaven. And you say that not condemnation? Wow...

 

[Roberth]

We are in the dispensation of grace.

Oh, dispensationalism....That's not Biblical. You can be under law this side of the cross. In fact if you don't have Jesus you are under law. Christ didn't do away with law, He fulfilled it. The believer has been delivered from under law because He met the terms of the law (obey & live, disobey & die) in Christ Jesus.

 

[Roberth]

The gospel is as simple as this. Some people try to complicate it.

It's complicated to those have been listening to "another gospel, which is really no gospel at all."

 

[Roberth]

1 Cor 15:10 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh (Greek: Sarx) and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep (remain dead), but we shall all be changed-- 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: "Death is swallowed up in victory."

All of us share in Adam's life. We are the multiplication of his fallen life. Therefore we are unfit for the kingdom of God. If it weren't for Christ's intervention, our death as a result of sharing Adam's life would be eternal.

Sarx: "the flesh, denotes mere human nature, the earthly nature of man apart from divine influence, and therefore prone to sin and opposed to God"

 

[onlinebuddy]

No, death is condemnation. We die because we share Adam's life indwelt with our bent-to-self. You can deny this all you want, but the Bible is not on your side on this one.

Gen 3:17 To Adam he (God) said, "Because you listened to your wife and ate from the tree about which I commanded you, 'You must not eat of it,' "Cursed is the ground because of you; through painful toil you will eat of it all the days of your life.
18 It will produce thorns and thistles for you, and you will eat the plants of the field.
19By the sweat of your brow you will eat your food until you return to the ground, since from it you were taken; for dust you are and to dust you will return."

Adam transgressed. The folks between Adam's fall and Moses, where the law was given, were sinners, but they didn't know they were sinners because the law hadn't been posted. Yet they were dying. Why?

Rom 5:13 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned.

Where? In Adam. Adam's sin was a corporate sin. It effected the human race, not because they transgressed, but because "in Adam" they received his fallen life indwelt with iniquity.

Therefore, when Christ as God was united to our corporate humanity, that needed redeeming, He too came under the death sentence, but not for transgression. Christ never sinned, but because He shared in the multiplication of Adam's life, through Mary, He took a condemned life. So taking our fallen humanity upon Himself didn't make Him a sinner.

No, death is condemnation.

We've talked about this. No need harping on the same things again and again.

but they didn't know they were sinners because the law hadn't been posted.

Every human being on earth(except Jesus) are sinners- guilty of willful sin. Every human being (before,during or after the law) who lived on earth had a conscience, and knows when he deliberately violated that conscience. Those who never knew the law, or who died without knowing Jesus, will be judged by their consciences.

Gen 3:17-19 does not say that all mankind is "condemned."
You need to stop adding your own terminology. When the Bible says "cursed" it does not mean "condemned"

"bent-to-self".."corporate sin"..."corporate humanity"...Please stop using man-made terminology. Would appreciate if you keep things simple.

Therefore, when Christ as God was united to our corporate humanity, that needed redeeming, He too came under the death sentence, but not for transgression. Christ never sinned, but because He shared in the multiplication of Adam's life, through Mary, He took a condemned life. So taking our fallen humanity upon Himself didn't make Him a sinner.

A sinner is the one who has sinned(intransitive verb). A sinner is the one who has broken the law. A sinner is the one who has violated his own conscience. A sinner is one who knows what he ought to do; but does not do it.

Every man is a sinner, not because he is born after Adam; but because he consciously chose to sin. Jesus is not a sinner; but not for all the complicated reasons you mentioned above. Jesus is not a sinner because he did not choose to sin. As simple as that!!!
Don't complicate things and throw people into confusion and dispute.
The purpose of this thread is being lost. You started out with an intellectually complicated question. Now you are entangling everyone into a complicated whirlwind of man-made terminologies. Furthermore, display your Bible knowledge by quoting bible verses to support your complicated concepts, and that too out of context.
You mix the moral law with the ceremonial law.
You confuse Adamic sin with willful sin.
You take verses applicable to the NC and apply them to the OC, and vice versa.
You take verses applicable to our old (unrepented) self(old man), and apply those to fallen man.
You say that an infant is not guilty, and yet condemned.
May God help you, and bless you!

 

[onlinebuddy]

Oh, dispensationalism....That's not Biblical. You can be under law this side of the cross. In fact if you don't have Jesus you are under law. Christ didn't do away with law, He fulfilled it. The believer has been delivered from under law because He met the terms of the law (obey & live, disobey & die) in Christ Jesus.

Man-made terminology again!

You can be under law this side of the cross.

What do you mean by this?

In fact if you don't have Jesus you are under law.

Too much "law" talk. It's sad that you are bent on putting people under the law. I shall call this condition, "bent-to-law" condition- typical of the SDA, although I am no one to judge them.

18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.[John 3:18]
If you do not have Jesus, you stand condemned.
Why? Because you are under the Law????
No "law" mentioned here. (Why complicate things?)
You are condemned, "because they have not believed in the name of God's one and only Son."
This verse gives all glory to Jesus.
So brother, talk more about Jesus, who is the fulfillment and culmination of the law.

Christ didn't do away with law, He fulfilled it.

No one has denied this, so please don't bring it up again and again.

I don't mean to be rude; just being straightforward!

 

[onlinebuddy]

Originally Posted by onlinebuddy

The gospel is as simple as this. Some people try to complicate it.

It's complicated to those have been listening to "another gospel, which is really no gospel at all."

Paul had a big problem with Jews trying to pollute and complicate the Gospel with works of the Law. In Galatians 1, Paul is warning the believers not to follow such a corrupted gospel (which is no gospel at all), where man has added to it.
Some people were complicating the simple Gospel, and throwing believers into confusion.
The words of Jesus are complete.
We only need to know the New Testament to gain faith.
Paul often talked about the Law because he was surrounded with Jewish people
who felt obligated to the Law(ceremonial).
They found it difficult to be weaned off that obligation, and depend totally on the grace of our Lord.
Today, our situation is different; so why bring the law up all the time?
The words of Jesus is law! Follow him and you are saved; reject him and you are condemned. As simple as that.

I mean this as nice as I can say it: You've gone mad....

Thank you !

 

[onlinebuddy]

We've talked about this. No need harping on the same things again and again.
Every human being on earth(except Jesus) are sinners- guilty of willful sin. Every human being (before,during or after the law) who lived on earth had a conscience, and knows when he deliberately violated that conscience. Those who never knew the law, or who died without knowing Jesus, will be judged by their consciences.

Gen 3:17-19 does not say that all mankind is "condemned."
You need to stop adding your own terminology. When the Bible says "cursed" it does not mean "condemned"

"bent-to-self".."corporate sin"..."corporate humanity"...Please stop using man-made terminology. Would appreciate if you keep things simple.

A sinner is the one who has sinned(intransitive verb). A sinner is the one who has broken the law. A sinner is the one who has violated his own conscience. A sinner is one who knows what he ought to do; but does not do it.

Every man is a sinner, not because he is born after Adam; but because he consciously chose to sin. Jesus is not a sinner; but not for all the complicated reasons you mentioned above. Jesus is not a sinner because he did not choose to sin. As simple as that!!!
Don't complicate things and throw people into confusion and dispute.
The purpose of this thread is being lost. You started out with an intellectually complicated question. Now you are entangling everyone into a complicated whirlwind of man-made terminologies. Furthermore, display your Bible knowledge by quoting bible verses to support your complicated concepts, and that too out of context.
You mix the moral law with the ceremonial law.
You confuse Adamic sin with willful sin.
You take verses applicable to the NC and apply them to the OC, and vice versa.
You take verses applicable to our old (unrepented) self(old man), and apply those to fallen man.
You say that an infant is not guilty, and yet condemned.
May God help you, and bless you!

CORRECTION**:
You confuse the fallen condition inherited due to** Adamic sin, with willful sin.

 

[Roberth]

Gen 3:17-19 does not say that all mankind is "condemned." You need to stop adding your own terminology. When the Bible says "cursed" it does not mean "condemned"

To be cursed is condemned. What planet are you from?

If you want absolute proof, let's return to the context:

Romans 5:12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned - 13 for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

1] Nothing is said here of knowing the law through your conscience. Nothing! For example, if you didn't know the law you wouldn't know not to bow down to idols or keep the Sabbath. You wouldn't know that coveting is sin, etc.

2] Paul clearly states that "where there is no law" sin is not imputed against that person. He states that folks between Adam & Moses were not dying because the law cursed them, but because they shared Adam's life.

Now you state that isn't condemnation. Well, Paul says you are dead wrong (excuse the pun):

Rom 5:18 So then as through one transgression (Adam's) there resulted condemnation to all men....

This condemnation was not due to transgression and therefore the associated guilt, but because all of of us share Adam's fallen life indwelt with iniquity (our bent-to-self or selfishness).

We belong to a ruined race no longer in God's image. Only "in Christ" do we have hope!

 

[Roberth]

You mix the moral law with the ceremonial law. You confuse Adamic sin with willful sin. You take verses applicable to the NC and apply them to the OC, and vice versa. You take verses applicable to our old (unrepented) self(old man), and apply those to fallen man. You say that an infant is not guilty, and yet condemned. May God help you, and bless you!

You are very confused person, theologically, that is....I guess the gospel (not "another gospel") is new to you, so I understand your frustration, but charging me with these absurdities shows your lack of understanding of the truth as it is "in Christ". I have done none of the things you accuse me of. Let's get off me and back to the subject.

 

[Roberth]

Romans 5:12 Therefore, just as through one man (Adam) sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned - 13 for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law....(Now Paul's summation) 18 So then as through one transgression (Adam's) there resulted condemnation to all men....

Condemnation to how many? All mankind. "Men" does not mean only males - it means mankind. All means all.

The human race stands condemned, not because of the law, but because of our association to Adam's fallen life. The law only makes things worse (see Romans 5:20)

Since we are the multiplication of Adm's life, after the fall, we stand condemned and were it not for the "last Adam" (Christ) our death would be eternal.

That's condemnation whether you like it our not. Who says so? Paul and he is inspired of God.

 

[Roberth]

Since we are the multiplication of Adm's life, after the fall, we stand condemned and were it not for the "last Adam" (Christ) our death would be eternal.

But again, there's good news:

First, we have bad news...very bad news:

Romans 5:18 "So then as through one transgression (Adam's) there resulted condemnation to all men (mankind)"

Now the good news:

"even so through one act of righteousness (Christ's, who is the "last Adam) there resulted justification of life to all men."

Christ has legally (by fulfilling the law, not abolishing it) redeemed the human race from condemnation. Therefore to be lost you have to willfully reject what He has already accomplished in His birth, life, death and resurrection.

 

[onlinebuddy]

To be cursed is condemned. What planet are you from?

This discussion is getting nowhere.

As for my planet, it is called Earth. Maybe you should visit sometimes

 

[Roberth]

So let's sum the gospel:

1] At the incarnation, God united your Adamic life (the life we all share with Adam) with the Deity of Christ. Hence Christ as God assumed our fallen humanity and thus He was made "the son of man"

2] For 30 something years Christ, as the son man, obeyed God's law perfectly. Here Christ satisfied the positive demands of God's law.

3] But because Christ, as God, assumed our condemned life from Mary that life had to eternally die and it did on Calvary.

4] Sunday Morning God the Father raised a new, glorified Christ free of our Adamic life. Our Adamic died forever. In its place God raised us up with Christ with a sinless, glorified life and took it to heaven.

5] There Christ (our high priest) presents our new humanity before God's law in the hollies of holy. "In Him" we stand complete by faith. In Him we are blameless and holy and the law is satisfied.

6] Therefore God can save sinners while maintaining integrity to his law.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Incorrect on several points

1. Christ became a man without sin, not with a fallen nature. Sin is passed through the father, not the mother.
2. Christ satisfied all of the law (not even sure what you mean by 'positive demands of GOD's law')
3. Christ was burdened with the penalty of our sin through the new covenant, not Mary.

So let's sum the gospel:

1] At the incarnation, God united your Adamic life (the life we all share with Adam) with the Deity of Christ. Hence Christ as God assumed our fallen humanity and thus He was made "the son of man"

2] For 30 something years Christ, as the son man, obeyed God's law perfectly. Here Christ satisfied the positive demands of God's law.

3] But because Christ, as God, assumed our condemned life from Mary that life had to eternally die and it did on Calvary.

4] Sunday Morning God the Father raised a new, glorified Christ free of our Adamic life. Our Adamic died forever. In its place God raised us up with Christ with a sinless, glorified life and took it to heaven.

5] There Christ (our high priest) presents our new humanity before God's law in the hollies of holy. "In Him" we stand complete by faith. In Him we are blameless and holy and the law is satisfied.

6] Therefore God can save sinners while maintaining integrity to his law.

 

[Roberth]

1] At the incarnation, God united your Adamic life (the life we all share with Adam) with the Deity of Christ. Hence Christ as God assumed our fallen humanity and thus He was made "the son of man"

Bible evidence:

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being. 4 In Him was life....

"The Word" is Christ the Son of God. He created the heavens & the earth (not evolution).

Verse 14 And the Word (Jesus as God) became flesh, and dwelt among us.

Note "He became" something that He wasn't as God. He became "flesh", which means as God He took upon His sinless Deity, OUR (not His) fallen humanity indwelt with the sin nature.

This is clear from the following:

Heb 2:14 Therefore, since the children (of Adam) share in flesh and blood, He Himself (Jesus as God) likewise also partook of the same (i.e., same "flesh & blood"), that through death He might render powerless him who had the power of death, that is, the devil, 15 and might free those who through fear of death were subject to slavery all their lives."

 

[Roberth]

Incorrect on several points

1. Christ became a man without sin, not with a fallen nature. Sin is passed through the father, not the mother.

Christ as the son of man never sinned, but the humanity He came to save was not our unfallen humanity....Christ came to save sinners from under His own law, but He had to do it in righteousness. Your life from Adam had to die, according to the law, and if it didn't die "in christ" then you are still under law and that means goodbye to heaven for you. Just saying....

2. Christ satisfied all of the law....

That's nice, but that bypasses the demands of the law concerning you. Christ dying instead of you doesn't answer God's law. No, it actually makes a mockery of it.

God must be just. The law demands your death. So Christ assumed your life from fallen Adam and in that life lived a perfect life and in that life died the justice of the law.

What you are presenting is a pretend righteousness. You are presenting a vicarious substitution. This is unethical. No law will allow the guilty to go free while condemning the innocent. No law!

3. Christ was burdened with the penalty of our sin through the new covenant, not Mary.

What? Christ obeyed the OC demands....That's why there's a better covenant. Christ as God received our Adamic life through Mary.

Mary is not what the Catholics make her to be. She was a sinner too and Christ, as the son of man, received from her our Adamic life.

I have already went to great lengths to prove that in assuming our fallen life, Christ as the son of man, was not made guilty of sin. He never sinned, not even by a thought.

 

[Roberth]

Heb 2:14 Therefore, since the children (of Adam) share in flesh and blood, He Himself (Jesus as God) likewise also partook of the same (i.e., same "flesh & blood"), that through death He might render powerless him who had the power of death, that is, the devil, ....

Jesus as God partook of the same flesh and blood as we have. There's only one type of flesh & blood and that is what we received from father Adam after the fall.

Turn to 1 Cor 15:50 "Now I say this, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God"

Why? Because the humanity we received from Adam has been polluted with iniquity, the love of self. If you take flesh and blood to heaven, heaven will become a living hell. That's why Lucifer was not allowed to remain in heaven once he rebelled against God's agape love.

By assuming our "flesh & blood", Christ, as the son of man, partook of a condemned life - a ruined life. That's why at the cross that life died eternally. He took our curse by assuming our corporate, fallen life.

Anyone who knowingly teaches opposite to this gospel, according to John, is of the spirit of anti-Christ*. Notice I said "knowingly"!!!

So we must be very careful what we present as the gospel, less we preach "another gospel".

* For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist. (2 John 1:7)

 

[VioletReigns]

Voices of the World

"Disguised as something worth your time and attention, the voices of the world call to you each and every day. Don’t fear them. Instead, put them to the test by asking yourself what they really say about Christ and what is actually being inserted in place of him as your only connection to God." [Jim Minker, author]