How can those with the Spirit hold contradictory views?

[MyLighthouse]

What it is, is a lot of people think they "feel" the spirit tell them something or reveal something. That's where we go wrong, there is a way that seems right to a man but that leads to death, we all have a heart but it's deceitful.

Scripture makes it clear that we are to search the scriptures for truth and wisdom not feelings. Another option is godly conceal because many times we have not read enough of the bible to come up with the right understanding.

Then again the spirit will guide us into all truth...just many of us aren't ready for that truth and like to find ways for it to makes sense to mankind's thoughts and ways, when we are told it is very much beyond our thoughts and ways. We can know the very deep things of God but many of us only don't want to get that deep, because that means more growing pains, more exposer, more dying of self, something that is hard for us because of the flesh.

One more thing, a lot are so stuck to a denominational truth that they are close off to the biblical truth. Being interdenominational I have learned something from each denomination, various truths that they "went over board" on actually help me see more clearly.

Conclusion, read the Word, seek counsel, be open, and be ready. Ignore feelings, they are deceiving and the reason for such divisions in the church.

 

[atwhatcost]

I would say that on matters of eschatology, if anyone says they are Spirit led in their conclusions about when Jesus will come, they they are deluded. Yes, we can present different options and points of view, but in the end, it is an educated guess, despite some denominations declaring that anyone not holding to their particular brand of "end times" is a heretic.

(When I attended the Pentecostal Assemblies of Canada (US AoG) it is right in their doctrinal statement that a person not believing in pre-trib rapture and pre-mill is a heretic and going to hell!) I even heard people talking about another charismatic denomination all being heretics because they were amill. It left me too afraid to look into the issue, until 10 years later when I ended up in Seminary and studied all 4 viewpoints, and realized I had always been amill, but now I had some reasons why I believed what I did!)

As far as Christology, I think there is only one viewpoint, the one this site and all orthodox believers agree on, including evangelical Protestants, Catholic, Orthodox, etc. And that is that the Trinity and the deity of Christ are the one and only truth.

As far as soteriology, I was Arminian my first years as a Christian, because that is what I was taught, and I never looked further. I lived in constant fear of losing my salvation, my husband still does, no matter how many times in the last 10 years our pastors in various churches have proclaimed loudly from the pulpit you cannot lose your salvation. This is another thing that Seminary really sorted out for me. We went through all the views, including Calvinist superlapsarianism. Yikes! (Sadly, my husband is still unable to look deeply into this issue on his own - it is just what he was taught by his mom growing up, and in the churches we attended the first 15 years after we were saved.)

But an honest look at Scripture IN CONTEXT, shows the believer who follows Christ can never lose their salvation. Not even if they have a bad year or two! God does not let go of his children, and he uses even the deep valleys for good (Romans 8:28)

Pneumatology is another big area of disagreement in this forum. Having come from a charismatic background, I wish I could convince everyone how deceived they are about tongues and signs! Sadly, many people with a dull and boring walk with God, think that the "experience" in a hyped up environment proves that babbling is for today. (I am not against people whom God actually give a foreign language to, to communicate the gospel with the lost from another culture! - The true meaning of tongues in Acts 2)

I do try and follow the leading of the Holy Spirit, but I try not to judge theology on the basis of my feelings. God has left us his Word, so we may study it, and learn and grow.

The Spirit should be leading us with regards to our personal lives, as we pray and seek God, along with digging into the Word of God to know his will. I think if more people did that, we would have a lot less disagreements in the BDF.

Whoa! This is the first time I've come to realize my SIL and BIL think we're going to hell. I remember how confused my SIL was the first time we mentioned we don't believe in trib or mill. She as raised AG. We didn't mean to shock her, since we really don't think that is part of what needs to be understood to be sanctified. But she was silent for a good five minutes. Then we went on to other topics, and conversation resumed. That five minutes was her adjusting her attitudes about who is and who isn't going to hell? Whoa! Had I known, I would have let her know it doesn't matter so much, so she didn't have to go so silent.

We're actually very fond of her. Had she not told hubby's brother that she wouldn't marry him unless he was a believer, no telling how long he would have continued denying he was already God's kid. She was the catalyst on what brought him back from a very long backsliding trip. And now they have four kids who also believe.

I like AG because of her and because of the guy who first taught me about God. (I'm just not AG.)

 

[atwhatcost]

I don't think yall would know evil if it bit you on the leg.

It didn't attack my leg yet.

 

[ember]

yeah...so you say evil bit you?

 

[atwhatcost]

yeah...so you say evil bit you?

That is NOT the face of evil. (Although Doggy looks like she's waiting for that promised treat.) Too cute! lol

 

[ember]

Doggy say leg taste like chicken.

 

[valiant]

I don't think yall would know evil if it bit you on the leg.

we don't have to look far lol just look at the Vatican

 

[valiant]

I'm watching you MWC 68 grrrrrrr

 

[crossnote]

yeah...so you say evil bit you?

doggy say 'evil won't bite me again!'

 

[Grandpa]

I went to the Lord in prayer and asked specifically "Can we lose our Salvation, Lord?"

Instantly, and this is the only time the answer came this fast, I "heard" a voice in my head say "I will never leave you nor forsake you."

Does this mean that only I can't lose my salvation? Or is this for all who call upon the Lord Jesus Christ as I do?

The bible says that God is not a respecter of persons, so I have concluded, along with much biblical proof, that salvation cannot be lost.

So you do, in fact, have two different people claiming to be Holy Spirit led, coming to two different conclusions on the issue of Salvation.

I don't know how two people can be led to two different conclusions by the same spirit. I can only conclude that those who think they were led by the spirit to believe that salvation can be lost were led by a different spirit.

What does Faith say? Does Faith say that the Lord will take back His Gift? Does Faith say a person would want to give back any gifts that God gives them?

I suppose we have to use our Christian sense that God gave us. We are weak but He is Strong.

 

[Angela53510]

I went to the Lord in prayer and asked specifically "Can we lose our Salvation, Lord?"

Instantly, and this is the only time the answer came this fast, I "heard" a voice in my head say "I will never leave you nor forsake you."

Does this mean that only I can't lose my salvation? Or is this for all who call upon the Lord Jesus Christ as I do?

The bible says that God is not a respecter of persons, so I have concluded, along with much biblical proof, that salvation cannot be lost.

So you do, in fact, have two different people claiming to be Holy Spirit led, coming to two different conclusions on the issue of Salvation.

I don't know how two people can be led to two different conclusions by the same spirit. I can only conclude that those who think they were led by the spirit to believe that salvation can be lost were led by a different spirit.

What does Faith say? Does Faith say that the Lord will take back His Gift? Does Faith say a person would want to give back any gifts that God gives them?

I suppose we have to use our Christian sense that God gave us. We are weak but He is Strong.

This is actually the same process with which God moved me to believe in eternal security. First I read about it, then I prayed. Next God showed me absolutely that I would never lose my salvation, and that his promises were good. He showed me in his Word that he was going to continuing working on me until the day of the Lord (Phil. 1:6)

So my next question, was indeed, was everyone else saved eternally, or just me? At that point I was still reeling in shock at all the lies I had been fed about soteriology. So I continued to pray, and God showed me that any true believer was indeed saved forever - and that included through the good times and bad, and even when sin was committed.

Salvation is truly a gift from God, and God will not take it back. I feel sorry for those who are so deluded to think that it is up to us to keep pulling ourselves up by the bootstraps, so we don't lose our salvation. In other words, a works based gospel.

But even worse is the people who believe you can lose your salvation setting themselves up as teachers, when they don't have the basic skills and tools of Bible Interpretation, and are fast and lose with Scripture. That indeed is another reason people have bad doctrine - they don't have a clue how to interpret the Bible correctly!

 

[eternally-gratefull]

This is actually the same process with which God moved me to believe in eternal security. First I read about it, then I prayed. Next God showed me absolutely that I would never lose my salvation, and that his promises were good. He showed me in his Word that he was going to continuing working on me until the day of the Lord (Phil. 1:6)

So my next question, was indeed, was everyone else saved eternally, or just me? At that point I was still reeling in shock at all the lies I had been fed about soteriology. So I continued to pray, and God showed me that any true believer was indeed saved forever - and that included through the good times and bad, and even when sin was committed.

Salvation is truly a gift from God, and God will not take it back. I feel sorry for those who are so deluded to think that it is up to us to keep pulling ourselves up by the bootstraps, so we don't lose our salvation. In other words, a works based gospel.

But even worse is the people who believe you can lose your salvation setting themselves up as teachers, when they don't have the basic skills and tools of Bible Interpretation, and are fast and lose with Scripture. That indeed is another reason people have bad doctrine - they don't have a clue how to interpret the Bible correctly!

whats even worse, is when these people get into a position of power. and make it so no one can challenge them. Then we get things like the pharisee jews, and the roman catholic church as a result.

 

[KennethC]

What it is, is a lot of people think they "feel" the spirit tell them something or reveal something. That's where we go wrong, there is a way that seems right to a man but that leads to death, we all have a heart but it's deceitful.

Scripture makes it clear that we are to search the scriptures for truth and wisdom not feelings. Another option is godly conceal because many times we have not read enough of the bible to come up with the right understanding.

Then again the spirit will guide us into all truth...just many of us aren't ready for that truth and like to find ways for it to makes sense to mankind's thoughts and ways, when we are told it is very much beyond our thoughts and ways. We can know the very deep things of God but many of us only don't want to get that deep, because that means more growing pains, more exposer, more dying of self, something that is hard for us because of the flesh.

One more thing, a lot are so stuck to a denominational truth that they are close off to the biblical truth. Being interdenominational I have learned something from each denomination, various truths that they "went over board" on actually help me see more clearly.

Conclusion, read the Word, seek counsel, be open, and be ready. Ignore feelings, they are deceiving and the reason for such divisions in the church.

Yes we must be careful when we say that the Holy Spirit or God has told us something, because some will make this claim but it will not align with the whole word of God or they will state one scripture that is taken out of context.

We must remember when it comes to the word of God scripture must be used to interpret scripture, we can not take one or two scriptures and pull them out and make them stand alone. That way will always lead to false interpretation !!!

Also like you said feelings, personal morals, teachings, as well as personal thoughts, and there is another spirit at work in the world as well that will interfere with the truth.

God saying He will never leave nor forsake us for example is in regards to our hard times (trails and tribulations) that we will face here on earth. It is not to be taken in reference to salvation because people can and do chose to deny Him, and the bible makes it clear when you deny Him there is no salvation because He will deny you......

 

[BenFTW]

Some really good responses in here guys. I like that some have come forward sharing their experiences with the Lord revealing eternal security to them. It shows us the antithesis for those in opposition to eternal security, (supposedly) led by the Spirit. It really highlights some of the questions this thread and replies bring up. I don't say supposedly as to offend, but it does make one question who has reached the biblical conclusion by the Spirit.

Now, we know Holy Spirit as Teacher. He does give us revelation and reveals the truth of the Word to us. So we can't just deny that aspect of the reality of our Christian walk. He is our Teacher for a reason, if we only read scripture without his guidance and revelation the conclusions we reach may not be His. We need Him and He is gracious to open our eyes to the truth. So, in having opposing views that each believe to be by the Spirit, how do we test which one is of Him? What is the method by which we determine if something is of the Lord?

I suppose this could eventually lead to the question of, how do you with meekness and respect reveal to someone what they think is of the Lord, is in fact not? To do it in a way that does not make them question their relationship with the Holy Spirit, but to seek once again His council in revelation on a particular topic? Say you know we are secure by the Holy Spirit's leading you to a revelation of your security in Christ. You know someone who had been led to believe otherwise, that we aren't secure. How do you suggest to them to seek again the Holy Spirit on this matter?

These are just things being said to get us to ponder. I hope that this isn't offending anyone, its just food for thought. I am not trying to make a point, per se, but just wanting to hear from other believers what their perspective is on all of this. If there was a point, in particular, or an underlying tone, in all honesty, it would be that I at times question whether a person has reached a particular conclusion by the Spirit. Is that my job to determine? Maybe not for all, but at the very least I can go to the Holy Spirit and ask Him if that conclusion was reached by His leading and whether it is something I should subscribe to, if you will.

 

[Gr8grace]

Yes we must be careful when we say that the Holy Spirit or God has told us something, because some will make this claim but it will not align with the whole word of God or they will state one scripture that is taken out of context.

We must remember when it comes to the word of God scripture must be used to interpret scripture, we can not take one or two scriptures and pull them out and make them stand alone. That way will always lead to false interpretation !!!

Also like you said feelings, personal morals, teachings, as well as personal thoughts, and there is another spirit at work in the world as well that will interfere with the truth.

God saying He will never leave nor forsake us for example is in regards to our hard times (trails and tribulations) that we will face here on earth. It is not to be taken in reference to salvation because people can and do chose to deny Him, and the bible makes it clear when you deny Him there is no salvation because He will deny you......

This is a prime example of taking something out of context.

11It is a trustworthy statement:
For if we died with Him, we will also live with Him; 12If we endure, we will also reign with Him;
If we deny Him, He also will deny us; 13If we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself.

If (And we have) we have died with Him, we shall live with Him........we are saved and Identified with Him in His death and Life.

If (Maybe we will, maybe we won't) we deny Him, He will deny us our REIGN with Him.

If(maybe we will,maybe we won't) we are faithless, He will remain faithful because He cannot deny Himself.....vs 11 we are a part of Him in salvation, He can't deny a part of His Body.

Eph 5:30~~New American Standard Bible
because we are members of His body.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Some really good responses in here guys. I like that some have come forward sharing their experiences with the Lord revealing eternal security to them. It shows us the antithesis for those in opposition to eternal security, (supposedly) led by the Spirit. It really highlights some of the questions this thread and replies bring up. I don't say supposedly as to offend, but it does make one question who has reached the biblical conclusion by the Spirit.

Now, we know Holy Spirit as Teacher. He does give us revelation and reveals the truth of the Word to us. So we can't just deny that aspect of the reality of our Christian walk. He is our Teacher for a reason, if we only read scripture without his guidance and revelation the conclusions we reach may not be His. We need Him and He is gracious to open our eyes to the truth. So, in having opposing views that each believe to be by the Spirit, how do we test which one is of Him? What is the method by which we determine if something is of the Lord?

I suppose this could eventually lead to the question of, how do you with meekness and respect reveal to someone what they think is of the Lord, is in fact not? To do it in a way that does not make them question their relationship with the Holy Spirit, but to seek once again His council in revelation on a particular topic? Say you know we are secure by the Holy Spirit's leading you to a revelation of your security in Christ. You know someone who had been led to believe otherwise, that we aren't secure. How do you suggest to them to seek again the Holy Spirit on this matter?

These are just things being said to get us to ponder. I hope that this isn't offending anyone, its just food for thought. I am not trying to make a point, per se, but just wanting to hear from other believers what their perspective is on all of this. If there was a point, in particular, or an underlying tone, in all honesty, it would be that I at times question whether a person has reached a particular conclusion by the Spirit. Is that my job to determine? Maybe not for all, but at the very least I can go to the Holy Spirit and ask Him if that conclusion was reached by His leading and whether it is something I should subscribe to, if you will.

one of my major tests is does it hold with the rest of scripture. ie, interpret scripture with scripture.

When I came out of many of the beliefs I was raised with, it was when I started interpreting scripture with scripture (because I would read it, and things did not make sense, I firmly believed the truth i was taught, because I trusted the men who taught me, but things started to not add up)

I also had to open my mind, an admit, I may be wrong or have been taught wrong about things.. That got me to look at other scriptures, and see what they said about the subject.. If they did nto agree, I realized I had to change my thinking.

 

[KennethC]

Some really good responses in here guys. I like that some have come forward sharing their experiences with the Lord revealing eternal security to them. It shows us the antithesis for those in opposition to eternal security, (supposedly) led by the Spirit. It really highlights some of the questions this thread and replies bring up. I don't say supposedly as to offend, but it does make one question who has reached the biblical conclusion by the Spirit.

Now, we know Holy Spirit as Teacher. He does give us revelation and reveals the truth of the Word to us. So we can't just deny that aspect of the reality of our Christian walk. He is our Teacher for a reason, if we only read scripture without his guidance and revelation the conclusions we reach may not be His. We need Him and He is gracious to open our eyes to the truth. So, in having opposing views that each believe to be by the Spirit, how do we test which one is of Him? What is the method by which we determine if something is of the Lord?

I suppose this could eventually lead to the question of, how do you with meekness and respect reveal to someone what they think is of the Lord, is in fact not? To do it in a way that does not make them question their relationship with the Holy Spirit, but to seek once again His council in revelation on a particular topic? Say you know we are secure by the Holy Spirit's leading you to a revelation of your security in Christ. You know someone who had been led to believe otherwise, that we aren't secure. How do you suggest to them to seek again the Holy Spirit on this matter?

These are just things being said to get us to ponder. I hope that this isn't offending anyone, its just food for thought. I am not trying to make a point, per se, but just wanting to hear from other believers what their perspective is on all of this. If there was a point, in particular, or an underlying tone, in all honesty, it would be that I at times question whether a person has reached a particular conclusion by the Spirit. Is that my job to determine? Maybe not for all, but at the very least I can go to the Holy Spirit and ask Him if that conclusion was reached by His leading and whether it is something I should subscribe to, if you will.

We test it by the word of God to see which spirit is from God, personal opinions, situations, or views mean nothing !!!

Lord Jesus (Matthew 24:10), Apostle Paul (Acts 20:28-31, 2 Corinthians 11:3, Romans 11:19-22, 1 Timothy 4; Also the Holy Spirit, Colossians 1:22-23), Hebrews (3:12-14, 6:4-6), Apostle Peter (2 Peter 2:20-22), Apostle James (James 5:12-20)

Those are just a few places of many from 6 witnesses in the bible that speak on falling away from the faith and not ending up with eternal life. If the spirit that is telling you that falling away/departing from the faith is impossible then it is not the Holy Spirit from God. For that contradicts multiple passages, so those who claim they have heard eternal security or osas from the spirit they may have heard this, just not from the Holy Spirit.

For the Holy Spirit Himself clearly says many will depart from the faith in Christ, and that same passage in 1 Timothy 4 shows they do not end up with eternal life !!!

I am sorry but the Holy Spirit can not contradict what is written in God's holy word, and falling away and departing from the faith is a clear and true teaching in the bible.........

 

[KennethC]

This is a prime example of taking something out of context.

11It is a trustworthy statement:
For if we died with Him, we will also live with Him; 12If we endure, we will also reign with Him;
If we deny Him, He also will deny us; 13If we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself.

If (And we have) we have died with Him, we shall live with Him........we are saved and Identified with Him in His death and Life.

If (Maybe we will, maybe we won't) we deny Him, He will deny us our REIGN with Him.

If(maybe we will,maybe we won't) we are faithless, He will remain faithful because He cannot deny Himself.....vs 11 we are a part of Him in salvation, He can't deny a part of His Body.

Eph 5:30~~New American Standard Bible
because we are members of His body.

Those simple little words in scripture seem to always get overlooked when context; if, may, might, and should

Those simple little words make those passages conditional, as well does the many where Apostle Paul says: continue, lay hold of, fight the good fight, by well doing seek for, and godliness being profitable for.

Scripture must interpret scripture and all must align in order for the context to be true and sound, as Apostle Paul shows multiple times that salvation/eternal life is the promise received at the end of our faith. Not the beginning !!!

 

[Angela53510]

Yes we must be careful when we say that the Holy Spirit or God has told us something, because some will make this claim but it will not align with the whole word of God or they will state one scripture that is taken out of context.

God saying He will never leave nor forsake us for example is in regards to our hard times (trails and tribulations) that we will face here on earth. It is not to be taken in reference to salvation because people can and do chose to deny Him, and the bible makes it clear when you deny Him there is no salvation because He will deny you......

Amazing how you can talk about verses being out of context, and then in the next breath say something about a verse which shows eternal security and totally disregard the verses before and after. Again, it is this poor understanding of exegetics and hermeneutics which make you not credible in any way.

The passage in question is towards the bottom of the post, from verse 1 to verse 9. Hebrews 13:5, is actually a quote from the Old Testament. Deut. 31:7-8

"Then Moses summoned Joshua and said to him in the sight of all Israel, “Be strong and courageous, for you shall go with this people into the land that the Lord has sworn to their fathers to give them, and you shall put them in possession of it.8 It is the Lord who goes before you. He will be with you; he will not leave you or forsake you. Do not fear or be dismayed.” Deut. 31:7-8

As you can see, the OT passage is actually at the end of Deuteronomy, and Moses is telling Joshua that God is going to be with them as they entered the promised land. However, the writer of Hebrews is taking this instruction in a much broader sense. The passage is in NO way about trials and tribulations, but rather it is instructions to the Hebrews on how to live and honour God. I think it is most telling that verses 8-9 below sum up the fact that Jesus does not change, and to not be led away by strange teachings, but be strengthed by GRACE! (Not works, such as what you eat, and so forth!)

"Let brotherly love continue.2 Do not neglect to show hospitality to strangers, for thereby some have entertained angels unawares.3 Remember those who are in prison, as though in prison with them, and those who are mistreated, since you also are in the body.4 Let marriage be held in honor among all, and let the marriage bed be undefiled, for God will judge the sexually immoral and adulterous.5 Keep your life free from love of money, and be content with what you have, for he has said, “I will never leave you nor forsake you.”6 So we can confidently say,“The Lord is my helper;
I will not fear;
what can man do to me?”

7 Remember your leaders, those who spoke to you the word of God. Consider the outcome of their way of life, and imitate their faith. 8 Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever. 9 Do not be led away by diverse and strange teachings, for it is good for the heart to be strengthened by grace, not by foods, which have not benefited those devoted to them." Hebrews 13:1-9


Kenneth, you are constantly posting verses of of context. That is eisegesis, from the Greek, with eis meaning "to go into, to read into." In other words, you approach the topic with your pre-set ideas, and then read into the passage something that is not there!

Try and learn something about exegesis, which means "to pull out." In other words, you read the text, putting aside personal preferences and biases, and by reading the passage in context with the verses around it, and in context with the entire book, covenant and the whole Bible, plus the grammar and the historical context. So you start with the text, and let it speak to you.

You are guilty in almost every post of reading into Scriptures, pulling them out of context, to support your false doctrine! Please start reading the Bible straight through, without preconconceived ideas, and I know God wil show you the truth.

And this, my friends, is why people have different doctrines which they think the Holy Spirit has taught them - because some people have no clue what Biblical interpretation means. And everyone should stay away from googling topics to find support for their position, and youtube teachers, even if they are good or confirm what you believe. The study of the Bible needs to be text first, doctrine second. If people held to that, we would not have so many contradictory views!

 

[Angela53510]

Those simple little words in scripture seem to always get overlooked when context; if, may, might, and should

Those simple little words make those passages conditional, as well does the many where Apostle Paul says: continue, lay hold of, fight the good fight, by well doing seek for, and godliness being profitable for.

Scripture must interpret scripture and all must align in order for the context to be true and sound, as Apostle Paul shows multiple times that salvation/eternal life is the promise received at the end of our faith. Not the beginning !!!

And this is pure Catholic heresy. God is not mysterious, keeping people in suspense or sending them to purgatory if they are not good enough! (Not saying you believe in purgatory, but that is the logical extension of this heinous false doctrine!)

You have committed the crime, once again of pulling out a bunch of words from their context, to prove the doctrine which you obviously learned at the hands of the Catholics during your stay in that church.

God is above time! He KNOWS who will persevere to the end. And those he has called and adopted into his family, and been sealed by the Holy Spirit are those he knows are saved.

God also shares that with us, in his Word, that he will complete the work that HE has started. It is the Holy Spirit who justifies us positionally when we are justified, and leads us as we walk through life till the end, when he glorifies us.

"Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ," Romans 5:1

"For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.

I am sorry for you, that you have no assurance nor confidence that God will keep you in his hand. But of course, according to your theology, you are not born again. Because by your ideas, every time you sinned a "venial" sin, you would lose your salvation, and have to be born again, again, and again and again.

At least there is some logic behind this unscriptural and perverse doctrine!