How do pre-tribbers explain the "saints" in Colossians 1?

[Rondonmon]

One of the many reasons I say the tribulation saints are not the church saints is found in Rev. 7:9-14.

"After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.

And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,

Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.

And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?

And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb."

I think this is pretty clear that these many saints washed themselves in the Blood of the Lamb DURING the Great Tribulation.

But those who had already washed themselves in the Blood of the Lamb and alive at the time the tribulation is to begin, have already been taken from this wrath of God on unrighteousness at the rapture.

When Jesus said that the gate that leads to life is narrow and few there be that find it, He was speaking of those saved during this time before the Great tribulation comes. In other words, most of the world will go through this time of trouble called the tribulation with very few being saved and escaping it.

This accounts for the great number of people saved during the tribulation.

Now for a deep dive on this passage. Would you not agree that sometimes men gets understandings in their minds and they seemingly can never come unto full truths because we have a kind of ROAD BLOCK because of these bad understandings? One night while praying 5 or so years I asked the Lord in prayer why it was the Church had so any different interpretations of who the Harlot is, the Beast, who the 144,000 are etc. etc. since in these Last Days God was supposed to pour out His spirit and reveal all of these end time thigs, as He told Daniel he would do.

AND I FOT THIS........"Ron, you guys already know it all"

I knew immediately what the holy spirit was telling me, that I had to stop looking to PAT ANSWERS that had been passed down, one I understood for 30 years, and whenever I came across a seeming CONTRADICTION, God waned me to simply ASK Him what the truth was, and He would reveal it, if He deemed we needed to know, but I learned I had to be persistent like a fog on a bone, and He would always gibe me the answer.

The above Rev. 7:9-17 had always been one of those passages that I just let slide, even though it made no sense, it could not jibe with the holy scriptures for some reason. But, I just went along for years, but now, God wanted me t DIG IN DEEP and to keep searching until He gave me the answers, in other words, I had no roadblocks anymore.

So, what is the contradiction? Well, those seen in Rev. 7:9-17 came out off a "GREAT TRIBULATION PERIOD" according to the Elder in Heaven telling it to John, but at the 5th Seal Jesus tells the Martyrs from the 70th week they have to wait until all of their brothers had been killed in like manner as they had been killed (by the Beast) before they could get their vengeance, so that meant they had to wait until the Beasts 42 month rule was finished. Then in Revelation 20:4 we see that those who refused the Mark of the Beast and thus became Martyrs, all are judged AFTER Jesus Second Coming Return, thus they can not be seen in Rev. 7:9-17 and DEEP DOWN I always knew this was the Church, but while debating I could never say why, because it clearly says they same out of the Great Tribulation !!

So, as I promised God CONTRADICTIONS would now be pursued until I got the answer from God, so, seeing as the 5th Seal words of Jesus and the Rev. 20:4 passage tells us no one from the 70th week tribulation can ever be seen in Heaven, they even stay on earth and rule with Jesus for 1000 years, so seeing this I knew those seen in Rev. 7:9-17 had to be the Pre Trib Raptured Church, now I had to search until I got the truth, like a dog on a bone.

So, I asked myself, how can the Pre Trib Raptured Church be see as coming out of the Great Tribulation, and one day he Holy Sprit just gave it to me while I was contemplating this seeming contradiction. "Ron, in John 16:33 didn't Jesus say that on this earth men would have CONTINUAL TRIBULATION" ? Then it hit me, I had placed a road block in Gd's way, all because I and others have pigeonholed His vocabulary, all because Satan had managed to TWIST its meaning like he did with Adam & Eve (Thou shalt not surly die).

2000 is GREATER than 7 right? As in 2000>7, so the Great Tribulation Church Age is what those seen in Rev. 7:9-17 cam out of, at the Pre Trib Rapture, thus now Jesus words in Seal #5 can be true, and Rev. 20:4 can be true AND John's passage in Rev. 7 can be TRUE, because the Church Age saw MILLIONS of Christians Martyred over that 2000 some odd year period of time. The word GREAT can be used to describe ANY THINGS, not just the greatest ever troubles, but the greatest ever period of time of troubles also.

NOTHING ELSE FITS............Those are Church Age Saints, not 70th week Saints.

Both Gentiles and Jews come unto Christ AFTER the Pre Trib Rapture, so the whole Saint discussion is in reality a little bit of a useless venture tbh.

 

[kleronomos]

It doesn't in reality, the "BLINDNESS IN PART" simply means God has deemed Israel as a Nation to be unable to carry His Gospel to the masses as a Nation, He thus says they are blind IN PART, meaning that Jews like Paul, Peter, and others at their time, along with some Messianic Jews down through the years (like all of our kin) can still come to Christ, by Faith in Jesus, but that option as a Nation was seen as God as "DEAD MEN'S BONES" unto Him, thus he gave the mantle of taking the Gospel over unto the Gentiles, thus the IN PART of course means that any man, even a Jew, can come unto God through faith in Christ, but Israel as a nation would not be pursued by God any furth until after the Time of the Gentiles, during the 70th week, after the Rapture of the "Mostly" Gentile Church.

So, God blinded Israel IN PART means as a Nation but nt as individuals, which would not be God like, because God allows ALL MEN to come unto Christ, but as a Nation, Gd saw them as Dead Men's Bones until 1948.

So, the division doesn't really figure in because SOME Jews wee Martyrs also after the cross. Catch my drift? So, there were Saints who were mostly Jews before the Cross, I think some Gentiles were deemed men of God, the Harlot who helped Israel out was deemed righteous I think, and the after the cross we have both Gentiles and Jews who are Martyrs of Jesus Christ. So, I think "THE DIVISION" is the Cross itself, on either side of the cross we have Saints and then Martyrs of Jesus.

Here is one place where I think I am getting
When that was said, there was no 'nation' of Israel. The 10 northern had been scattered to the world hundreds of years before, southern went to Babylon, the temple was only built back for Christs arrival but there had been no 'nation of Israel' nor 'land of Israel' for a couple hundred years.



Romans 11:24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?

Romans 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

Romans 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

There was blindness BEFORE CHRIST'S FIRST ADVENT. Everyone had gone into captivity the 'House of Israel' the Northen tribes had already forgotten who they were. Hundreds of years before Christ had walked the earth ISRAEL WAS IN BLINDNESS.

The house of Judah had been allowed to go back and build the temple but it was no longer their nation, not under their control, not under their rule. AND the chief priests and Pharisees and Sadducees and Scribes outed themselves of not being of JUDAH and appointed to their positions. SO we can safely say even the southern tribes had been scattered mostly.

So we have ISRAEL ALREADY in blindness for hundreds of years. AGAIN, they no longer know they are 'of the tribes' at all. Since they are unaware they are of Israel, they just think they are gentiles like everyone else. What few of the Jews left there will be killed when the temple is destroyed or scattered themselves but THEY do keep memory of who they are.


By the time Jesus came and all the way up through His crucifixion and raising up
the gentiles were CONSIDERED the 'unclean, uncircumcised, a far off, strangers to the promise etc." BY THE LAST OF the 'Jews' in Jerusalem. (and probably where ever they were. JEWS, and those of the SOUTHERN tribes)

ONCE Christ rose and the New Covenant brought forth and the veil rent

SALVATION was FROM THAT POINT ON open to EVERYONE.


WHAT WAS THE PROPHECY?


Romans 11:24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree? 25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. 26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob

THIS IS WHY I BELIEVE THAT SALVATION BEING OFFERED TO THE GENTILES ALONG WITH
the preaching of it to them by those who USED to believe them 'unclean'

IS THE DIVISION THAT WAS DONE AWAY WITH AND WAS WHEN THE BLINDNESS CAME OFF OF ISRAEL. (except for the tribe of Judah, one of the other 12 tribes)

The gentiles and Jews and lost sheep and WHO EVER are ALL FULLY ABLE TO COME IN. There is no longer any separation FROM GODS POINT OF VIEW.

I have been pondering upon this whole thing for a couple years. Nothing fit for me from what I understood. The church being divided having just been brought together, a people who didn't know who they were under a 'curse' and for 2000 years NOT ABLE to BELIEVE in the Lord and Saviour because of who their parents to the 10th degree were. We being told the nations would be blessed, their numbers being as the stars in the sky. NOT TO MENTION the LOST SHEEP of the house of Israel that Christ came for. HOW could not a one of them come to Him in over 2000 years. THOSE THOUGHTS ARE COMPLETING LACKING IN COMMON SENSE AND ARE DIAMETRICALLY OPPOSED TO GODS PLAN.

Yes, I under stand the 'Jews' still look for a Messiah but that is to serve out Gods purpose I'm sure.



I believe that this is a conformation of WHEN the blindess came upon them



Romans 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
Romans 10:18 But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.
Romans 10:19 But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you.
Romans 10:20 But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me.
Romans 10:21 But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.

​

Romans 11:1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
Romans 11:2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel saying,
Romans 11:3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
Romans 11:4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
Romans 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.



AND I believe this is a confirmation of when it started to come off

until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. 26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob


Out of Sion the DELIVERER has come. And the 'ungodliness' from Gods people

But those who had already washed themselves in the Blood of the Lamb and alive at the time the tribulation is to begin, have already been taken from this wrath of God on unrighteousness at the rapture.

Moses is the transliterationn. Translation would be in the language of the reader unless reading in Hebrew. Jesus is a transliteration also. The closest I know to the actual translation of His name would be "Yesh" or Redeemer and Yah or God. It can be drawn out to Savior Yahweh.. Yeshiyahu.. is one transliteration depending upon the epoch of that lingual usage, however it has come to be Yeshua.

Another example of the roots of thename of our Lord wuld be the father of David, Jesse. Jessi is Yeshi meaning Yesh as Redeemer and I the suffix for thefirst person singular possessive, my, ergo my redeemer.

Is it not something upon which to meditate when we think of the name of King David? His name is translated as Beloved. All the prophesies about King David now become bathed in Holy Light, amen.

Translation is the meaning while Transliteration is the letters as close as can be if I got it right. Thank you very much

 

[Rondonmon]

Here is one place where I think I am getting
When that was said, there was no 'nation' of Israel. The 10 northern had been scattered to the world hundreds of years before, southern went to Babylon, the temple was only built back for Christs arrival but there had been no 'nation of Israel' nor 'land of Israel' for a couple hundred years.

No, there was NEVER any lost tribes, that's a myth. The Northern Kingdom had some Jews (Judah) living thee who loved Wickedness, likewise Jerusalem had every tribe of the Northern Kingdom living in its city, many hated their wicked ways and moved and many probably just preferred the city life or worked there. Thu the SEED fir all of the 12 Tribes has never been lost, each tribe had people living in Judah, now go reread Ezekiel 37:15-28, it is the TWO STICKS will become ONE STICK Prophecy. God never wanted two nations, thus when he allowed the wicked Northern Kingdoms to be toted off, there was SEED from all 12 Tribes living in Judah, but just like Italians who live in New York for 100 years become New Yorkers, those other tribes simply became Jews (the lived in Judea). Thus when Israel were TOTED OFF at the Diaspora, al 12 tribes were toted off, and you know hw we know this? God Himself told Ezekiel that when he brings Israel ack from all the Nations, that he brought back the WHOLE HOUSE of Israel !! That ends the debate, LOL, God told that to Ezekiel, we MISS these passages by having tunnel vision in many cases.

Ezekiel 37:11 Then he said unto me, Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel: behold, they say, Our bones are dried, and our hope is lost: we are cut off for our parts. 12 Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel.

13 And ye shall know that I am the Lord, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves, 14 And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the Lord have spoken it, and performed it, saith the Lord.

So, when God brought Israel back from where he sent them, they came back as the WHOLE HOUSE of Israel, because those "Jews" were only ALL Jews in that the lived in Judah, there were not all Judeans, they were every tribe. God stated he had saved himself 7000, which just means the COMPLETE number thereof, of all the tribes.

So, the whole Lost Tribes has always been a myth, men make babies with their wives, Abraham, ONE MAN brought firth the Nation of Israel, thus when the Wicked Northern Tribes were toted off, no tribes were ever "Lost" as Abraham proved, many seed ca come from just one man, each tribe had MANY people living in Jerusalem. Satan is very good at twisting scriptures, which is why he cited them t Jesus at the Temptation of Jesus, but Jesus KNEW THE WORD, and knowing the word trumps Satan's untruths, there were never any lost tribes. God created ONE NATION, or ONE STICK out of the TWO STICKS.

There was blindness BEFORE CHRIST'S FIRST ADVENT. Everyone had gone into captivity the 'House of Israel' the Northen tribes had already forgotten who they were. Hundreds of years before Christ had walked the earth ISRAEL WAS IN BLINDNESS.

Again, when we get something wrong, we go down MANY Rabbit holes.

Israel still had the mantle God gave them via taking the good news unto the whole world, but they had to REPENT, and they never did, if Israel ha repented there would have never of been a Church Age, the Jews would have taken the Gospel of Jesus unto the masses, and Jesus would have shown up in 70 AD to save Israel from the Fourth Beast. They were blinded as a nation and punished because if Israel had stayed intact, they would have eventually found a way to get on the inside of Christianity and pervert the Gospel of Jesus Christ, which is what Paul was warning the Galatian's about in Gal. chapter 3, Who has BEWITCHED YOU, that you starting out in the faith have now turned to the flesh (Laws). He was NEVER telling the Galatians that the Jews and Gentiles are ONE, he was telling the Galatians to STOP TRYI G TO BE Jews in order to make it to Heaven. And thus he was saying we are all exactly the same, we must ALL come t Jesus by DAITH ALONE, not via the Laws. That's why he says there is neither Greek nor Jews, neither Male nor Female. QUESTION, do you think there ae now no males and females? Then why does anyone think he was saying there are no Jews and Greeks? Tat WAS NOT Paul's point, he's speaking about in God's eyes, it doesn't matter if you are make or female, Jew or Greek, Slave or Freeman, we are all saved by FAITH ALONE in Jesus Christ, thus there are stull males and females and Jews and Greeks. Satan twists this passage also.

John was a Prophet, sent to Israel, so even though they had yet to repent, God at that point did nit see them as Dead Men's Bones, only when Jesus died (69th week ends) did God split the veil into and make Israel blind as a Nation.

The gentiles and Jews and lost sheep and WHO EVER are ALL FULLY ABLE TO COME IN. There is no longer any separation FROM GODS POINT OF VIEW.

I have been pondering upon this whole thing for a couple years. Nothing fit for me from what I understood. The church being divided having just been brought together, a people who didn't know who they were under a 'curse' and for 2000 years NOT ABLE to BELIEVE in the Lord and Saviour because of who their parents to the 10th degree were. We being told the nations would be blessed, their numbers being as the stars in the sky. NOT TO MENTION the LOST SHEEP of the house of Israel that Christ came for. HOW could not a one of them come to Him in over 2000 years. THOSE THOUGHTS ARE COMPLETING LACKING IN COMMON SENSE AND ARE DIAMETRICALLY OPPOSED TO GODS PLAN.

Yes, I under stand the 'Jews' still look for a Messiah but that is to serve out Gods purpose I'm sure.

When God/Jesus says LOST SHEEP, he is referring to their Spiritual state of being as a nation.


I am not saying you are not trying very hard to get there, I can see that, I am just pointing out we have to be careful, Satan is very crafty, if he can get us hung up on ONE WRONG ASSUMPTION, he an lead us down many wrong paths.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

The word "saints" is used in Colossians 1 four times. How do pre-tribbers square this with their belief that the church is gone in Revelation 4? Let me explain.

Revelation uses the word "saints" for those still on the earth after the supposed rapture in Revelation 4. Pre-tribbers say these are "tribulation saints," or those who get saved after the rapture.

But what about Colossians 1? Is Paul writing to the church or to future tribulation saints? The Greek words used in Colossians and Revelation are basically the same: hagios, hagion, hagious. They mean essentially the same thing, the different spellings represent different tenses. I think simple common sense should tell us the saints in Colossians are the church and the saints in Revelation are as well.

Saint

In Hebrew the word is Hasid And it means one who is faithful, Kind Godly, devout of God

In the Greek the word is hagios And it means a holy or set apart one. A holy place. A sanctuary, One who is devoted to God.

So in both instances. There has been saints since the beginning

Its not odd to think that Paul wrote to saints in a city in the 1st century AD. And that there will be saints in the tribulation period (whether their is a rapture or not) who are set apart and holy to God.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

Wow, this thread got off track fast..

 

[kleronomos]

No, there was NEVER any lost tribes, that's a myth. The Northern Kingdom had some Jews (Judah) living thee who loved Wickedness, likewise Jerusalem had every tribe of the Northern Kingdom living in its city, many hated their wicked ways and moved and many probably just preferred the city life or worked there. Thu the SEED fir all of the 12 Tribes has never been lost, each tribe had people living in Judah, now go reread Ezekiel 37:15-28, it is the TWO STICKS will become ONE STICK Prophecy. God never wanted two nations, thus when he allowed the wicked Northern Kingdoms to be toted off, there was SEED from all 12 Tribes living in Judah, but just like Italians who live in New York for 100 years become New Yorkers, those other tribes simply became Jews (the lived in Judea). Thus when Israel were TOTED OFF at the Diaspora, al 12 tribes were toted off, and you know hw we know this? God Himself told Ezekiel that when he brings Israel ack from all the Nations, that he brought back the WHOLE HOUSE of Israel !! That ends the debate, LOL, God told that to Ezekiel, we MISS these passages by having tunnel vision in many cases.

Ezekiel 37:11 Then he said unto me, Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel: behold, they say, Our bones are dried, and our hope is lost: we are cut off for our parts. 12 Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel.

13 And ye shall know that I am the Lord, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves, 14 And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the Lord have spoken it, and performed it, saith the Lord.

So, when God brought Israel back from where he sent them, they came back as the WHOLE HOUSE of Israel, because those "Jews" were only ALL Jews in that the lived in Judah, there were not all Judeans, they were every tribe. God stated he had saved himself 7000, which just means the COMPLETE number thereof, of all the tribes.

So, the whole Lost Tribes has always been a myth, men make babies with their wives, Abraham, ONE MAN brought firth the Nation of Israel, thus when the Wicked Northern Tribes were toted off, no tribes were ever "Lost" as Abraham proved, many seed ca come from just one man, each tribe had MANY people living in Jerusalem. Satan is very good at twisting scriptures, which is why he cited them t Jesus at the Temptation of Jesus, but Jesus KNEW THE WORD, and knowing the word trumps Satan's untruths, there were never any lost tribes. God created ONE NATION, or ONE STICK out of the TWO STICKS.



Again, when we get something wrong, we go down MANY Rabbit holes.

Israel still had the mantle God gave them via taking the good news unto the whole world, but they had to REPENT, and they never did, if Israel ha repented there would have never of been a Church Age, the Jews would have taken the Gospel of Jesus unto the masses, and Jesus would have shown up in 70 AD to save Israel from the Fourth Beast. They were blinded as a nation and punished because if Israel had stayed intact, they would have eventually found a way to get on the inside of Christianity and pervert the Gospel of Jesus Christ, which is what Paul was warning the Galatian's about in Gal. chapter 3, Who has BEWITCHED YOU, that you starting out in the faith have now turned to the flesh (Laws). He was NEVER telling the Galatians that the Jews and Gentiles are ONE, he was telling the Galatians to STOP TRYI G TO BE Jews in order to make it to Heaven. And thus he was saying we are all exactly the same, we must ALL come t Jesus by DAITH ALONE, not via the Laws. That's why he says there is neither Greek nor Jews, neither Male nor Female. QUESTION, do you think there ae now no males and females? Then why does anyone think he was saying there are no Jews and Greeks? Tat WAS NOT Paul's point, he's speaking about in God's eyes, it doesn't matter if you are make or female, Jew or Greek, Slave or Freeman, we are all saved by FAITH ALONE in Jesus Christ, thus there are stull males and females and Jews and Greeks. Satan twists this passage also.

John was a Prophet, sent to Israel, so even though they had yet to repent, God at that point did nit see them as Dead Men's Bones, only when Jesus died (69th week ends) did God split the veil into and make Israel blind as a Nation.


When God/Jesus says LOST SHEEP, he is referring to their Spiritual state of being as a nation.


I am not saying you are not trying very hard to get there, I can see that, I am just pointing out we have to be careful, Satan is very crafty, if he can get us hung up on ONE WRONG ASSUMPTION, he an lead us down many wrong paths.

Three super simple basic questions - No need for explanations, just Chapters and verses to make sure we have same foundation

Was Israel divided into 2 kingdoms?

What did God tell them what would happen if they did not obey the laws?

Did they go into captivity at the same time?



This should start us off on the same footing. If we are not on the same foundation to start from, all that follows is confusion.

 

[Rondonmon]

Three super simple basic questions - No need for explanations, just Chapters and verses to make sure we have same foundation

Was Israel divided into 2 kingdoms?

What did God tell them what would happen if they did not obey the laws?

Did they go into captivity at the same time?



This should start us off on the same footing. If we are not on the same foundation to start from, all that follows is confusion.

All this is irrelevant, if SEED is still in Jerusalem, it doesn't matter what happened to the ones who were toted off. The 12 Tribes were never SPLIT UP, its just like having 10,000 pigs from one papa pig, and each of his 10 Piglets had 1000 ancestors, then in 5 of those sub clans 975 were taken away, you still would have SEED from his 10 piglets. God doesn't really care how you or I see it, just what His truths are. It doesn't matter that you were in error on this all of these years, I misunderstood the same thing for over 30 years. Then the holy spirit showed me wat Ezekiel 37 means in full. Who cares tat I was wrong for 30 plus years? As long as I am correct now, that is irrelevant to me.

Its better to tear down bridges to other doctrine built by wrong assumptions, than to continue in those wrong assumptions. I don't play whack-a-mole.

It doesn't matter of Israel was divided into 12 kingdoms, God said he was going to make it ONE KINGDOM, thus the Two Sticks Prophecy. As I stated, you can't change God's own words, He stated to Ezekiel that those he brought into Israel were the WHOLE HOUSE of Israel, that is God Himself saying that to Ezekiel, that finishes the debate !! I don't play Whack-a-mole with God's words.

God always had SEED from all 12 tribes living in Jerusalem/Judah.

 

[RichMan]

In answer to the title question.

Let me count the ways.

 

[kleronomos]

All this is irrelevant, if SEED is still in Jerusalem, it doesn't matter what happened to the ones who were toted off. The 12 Tribes were never SPLIT UP, its just like having 10,000 pigs from one papa pig, and each of his 10 Piglets had 1000 ancestors, then in 5 of those sub clans 975 were taken away, you still would have SEED from his 10 piglets. God doesn't really care how you or I see it, just what His truths are. It doesn't matter that you were in error on this all of these years, I misunderstood the same thing for over 30 years. Then the holy spirit showed me wat Ezekiel 37 means in full. Who cares tat I was wrong for 30 plus years? As long as I am correct now, that is irrelevant to me.

They aren't simple at all. What about the blessings each of them were given? Do you think Gods Plan changed COMPLETELY because blood sacrifices were no longer, Priests didn't talk for us any longer, the building wasn't the only place and the bloodline wasn't either. WE need to know the 'words of God' more than ever not less. GOD DOESNT CHANGE and that doesn't change any of the facts that one had the duties of the Scepter and the other the birthright. If there is no understanding these basics (and how they play all the way through) then we will just have to disagree and move on to others. Without this foundation it is impossible to agree and to much to teach. But thank you for your time.

 

[Rondonmon]

They aren't simple at all. What about the blessings each of them were given? Do you think Gods Plan changed COMPLETELY because blood sacrifices were no longer, Priests didn't talk for us any longer, the building wasn't the only place and the bloodline wasn't either. WE need to know the 'words of God' more than ever not less. GOD DOESNT CHANGE and that doesn't change any of the facts that one had the duties of the Scepter and the other the birthright. If there is no understanding these basics (and how they play all the way through) then we will just have to disagree and move on to others. Without this foundation it is impossible to agree and to much to teach. But thank you for your time.

Are you Jewish? Serious question.

Either way, Jesus is ALL THESE THINGS unto the Jews now, he is their High Priest AND ours also. Israel as a nation lost their mantle, let me give you an example.

Jacob took Esau's birthright, thus the ELDER served the YOUNGER. Now go read Romans 9

Romans 9:10 And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac; 11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth 12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.

13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.(Really means LOVED less, not hated.) 14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.

Right now the elder (Israel) is serving the younger for a time, until the time of the Gentiles is fulfilled, but even though that is the case, ALL Jews can still be saved, right now the Mantle is with the Gentile Church via the Summer Harvest of Souls, until that time it was the Spring Harvest led by Israel, in the 1000 year reign, Jesus reigns from Jerusalem as the King of kings and Lord of lords. Amen.

Thus if we read Romans chapters 9-11 we see Paul lays all of this out. God loves all men, but He only used ONE NATION, and once the Church is in Heaven, Gid again turns to that ONE NATION.

Glory to God.

 

[kleronomos]

Jacob took Esau's birthright, thus the ELDER served the YOUNGER. Now go read Romans 9

Don't you think that is how rumors get started?

Both Jacob and his mother fulfilled what the Lord said. Jacob was dealing with a tare. He swore, gave is word then tried to renege.

Genesis 25:23 And the LORD said unto her, Two nations are in thy womb, and two manner of people shall be separated from thy bowels; and the one people shall be stronger than the other people; and the elder shall serve the younger.

Esau sold it for a bowl of pottage, how much did it mean to him?

Genesis 25:30 And Esau said to Jacob, Feed me, I pray thee, with that same red pottage; for I am faint: therefore was his name called Edom.
Genesis 25:31 And Jacob said, Sell me this day thy birthright.
Genesis 25:32 And Esau said, Behold, I am at the point to die: and what profit shall this birthright do to me?
Genesis 25:33 And Jacob said, Swear to me this day; and he sware unto him: and he sold his birthright unto Jacob.
Genesis 25:34 Then Jacob gave Esau bread and pottage of lentiles; and he did eat and drink, and rose up, and went his way: thus Esau despised his birthright.


Am I Jewish? I don't know. There is a distinct possibility. Do I study the OT, yes very much! But with the veil taken away of course. I LOVE the Old, I love the New. One gives me more distinct details of who GOD is. The other gives me more details of how God loves. They are equally important to me the Holy Spirit shows. I love the things He teaches. I love His emotions. I love the way He teaches. I do not know what it means to be Jewish. I know I read the same words they do but they read it on a different level than I do because of my accepting The Messiah, the Servant, the Sacrifice, the Gift, the Work, the HOLY SPIRIT, makes all the difference in the world.

So please under stand where I stand with the 'took' of the statement. God hated Esau for a reason. I am sure he sold him out before, God is Just and not a respecter of persons meaning persons are responsible for who they are. And in hopes to keep at bay what follows that, FAITH comes from hearing and hearing from the words of God and IF we do, then we can hope to attain and I don't believe that the Lord will be judging Himself and how well He did within each person aka pre written words vs Free will yet I do chosen and called.

So God did place one of the elect, foreknown, preordained etc. with a none elect. (returns to who gave it) I don't follow the 'GOD just knows everything'. I believe He uses those words stating HE KNEW THEM and not words like 'and I have seen the future of this man' or 'and I know what this man will do' or anything like that ever.
Try it yourself one day. Write out if you had actually known someone previous and so knew their character and write it out like you 'knew everything'. There is where the answer is found. If there is any struggle with it, that comes from us from conjecture. WHEN did Satan FALL? Is that some big mystery. No, it isn't, it is just under a veil. Just not Gods.

is with the Gentile Church

This is how rumors are perpetuated. THERE IS NO GENTILE in Christ. Just as there is no Jew. A Christian is a new creature. SO there was the VERY FIRST generation when Salvation was being opened up, the gentiles called 'the unclean' but by the time of the SECOND generation there was no reason to stipulate anymore. The word was being preached to the world, without distinction. The JEWS didn't even have a temple. There was no nation of Israel They started calling it church instead of synagogue to make sure that the distinction of clean vs unclean was done away with. SO what happens? The gentiles EXCLUDE the Jews and Israel. Now it is the 'Gentile Church' calling the Jews unclean/un raptured. Haven't we come a long ways.

The church isn't going to heaven before being tested for the simple reason that isn't how God works. I don't think there are many things that God makes more clear. Persecution, Affliction, Tribulation, etc. How many different ways does He say it. And NO ONE, not EVEN CHRIST gets a free ride. It is required. We must DO THE WORK. And He can't leave without voiding the words of God. No really any different than the Pharisees and Sadducees and their injections into Gods words.

If the good aren't around for the evil to do their thing, then HOW ARE THE GOOD to be REWARDED AND HOW ARE THE EVIL JUDGED? GOD tells us DON'T FEAR anyone who can kill this body.

If that isn't the big scary thing, and we all must be proved, then how? Biggest sign, miracle or wonder the world would ever see and not a word out of the mouth of Jesus. Not before His death, not after His death, not in any writings anywhere. Even when speaking about the Beginning of sorrows, which is where it would come about, NOT WORD ONE. Not hint one. Just the opposite. WHEN YE SHALL...meaning the YE's would have to be here.

I read the letter to the churches and they all ended the same way. Written to the 'TEACHINGS being put forth', letting us know the good from the bad and it isn't to THE CHURCH the promises are made but it is, TO HIM, the individual, the one who puts on the armor, the one who endures to the end, the one who doesn't fall away, the one who isn't taken, the one who remains faithful, the one who doesn't worship the image, the one who doesn't buy and sell, the one who takes the extra oil, the one He finds still working, the one who doesn't go getting drunk, the one who isn't deceived by any man, the list goes on and on, and it is to THAT ONE that receives. And the rest are going to have the wrath of God fall upon them.

THE CHURCH disappears because SATAN is DECEIVING the world. The church is the FALLING AWAY and the moment that image is set up and the world starts to worship it THEN THE LOVE AND WORSHIP THAT GOD WAS RECEIVING HE NO LONGER IS, AND THAT IS THE DAILY SACRIFICE TAKEN AWAY. The whole world worshipping after him because THEY, the church, received not the truth, and so the 'church' on the earth

Why did you ask if I were Jewish?

Last thing, after you go back and read about 'the church' and find it is no different than all of Jacob had when they lost it all.

Read the warnings to the churches, its gonna sound very familiar.
Deuteronomy 32:16 They provoked him to jealousy with strange gods, with abominations provoked they him to anger.

Deuteronomy 32:17 They sacrificed unto devils, not to God; to gods whom they knew not, to new gods that came newly up, whom your fathers feared not.

Deuteronomy 32:18 Of the Rock that begat thee thou art unmindful, and hast forgotten God that formed thee.

Deuteronomy 32:19 And when the LORD saw it, he abhorred them, because of the provoking of his sons, and of his daughters.

Deuteronomy 32:20 And he said, I will hide my face from them, I will see what their end shall be: for they are a very froward generation, children in whom is no faith.

Deuteronomy 32:21 They have moved me to jealousy with that which is not God; they have provoked me to anger with their vanities: and I will move them to jealousy with those which are not a people; I will provoke them to anger with a foolish nation.

A foolish nation needs to be proved most of all. They came by faith, lets see if that faith is a True faith. If God can 'rapture' away a billion people, then He can correctly direct His wrath and where and who it falls upon (but if He says get out and you don't, that is on you)

 

[Rondonmon]

This is how rumors are perpetuated. THERE IS NO GENTILE in Christ.

You are missing the thrust of the point, READ Rom. 9-11 and the BIG PICTURE Paul paints may come unto you in full. REMEMBER, we are speaking about God using Israel not Jews, thus God could blind THE NATION, but still use Paul, Peter etc. etc. I didn't say he blinded Jews, not that the Church was all Gentile, I stated that we are in the Gentile Church Age, which is basically what Paul also stated. All there chapters are saying why the Romans should not get the BIG HEAD that God has chosen them and has (for a time) forsaken Israel, and chosen the Gentiles (the Rome Church was who the letter was to). But at that very moment God was using Paul, a Jew, so God had not forsaken INDIVIDUAL Jews, but just Israel as a Nation , because Israel as a Nation had rejected God/Jesus. In Matt 23 Jess tells the Jews you will not see me again until you are saying blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord....Meaning he will save them from the Anti-Christ, BUT..........They repent before he returns, of course.

Read all three chapters and I think you will understand what Paul is doing, he's basically doing this to the Romans, saying "HEY, Do not get the bog head thinking you are ALL THAT, Roman Church, who can say why Gid dies what He des, He chose Jacob over Esau while they were still in the womb, so just because He has now chosen you, don't think Gid has forsaken Israel forever, God forbid, because Israel's calling is WITHOUT REPENTANCE, God will graft them back in and ALL Israel will be saved (not every Jew but Israel as a Nation is SAVED because 1/3 of the Jews repent). That will be a far larger percentage than Gentiles.

So, you are looking at my points from the wrong perspective, I am speaking of what Paul is speaking about as per why God chose how He chose, and as Paul informs the Romans, who are we to say to the potter, why are you choosing to mold such and such a way. God choses as He choses.

 

[kleronomos]

Ok, ok. Please tell me what that looks like. Please, don't use Scripture, just explain how has that effected individuals over the last 2000 years and how it will in the future.

I would like to know what SALVATION has been offered to individuals WHO HAVE BEEN BLINDED throughout the generations and HOW they will be judged on their works.

Not coming to Christ or GOD but 'will be grafted them back in' for the final generation, but how does that effect their lives during the millennium?

What of Judah/Jews who have never accepted Christ but do God, but will before the end?

What of the (scattered sheep) who didn't know who they were for 2000 years before Christ up through now


How did this effect the Nation of Israel as a people? How did it effect Israel as the land?

I understand what you see the WORDS as saying but let's see it working in practical terms. Because here is what I keep hearing. The people who were scattered and all their descendants have been blinded and up until the last generation will be meaning NO WORKS to be judged.

I look forward to hearing from you. Feel free to explain it like I had never heard it before.

 

[Rondonmon]

Ok, ok. Please tell me what that looks like. Please, don't use Scripture, just explain how has that effected individuals over the last 2000 years and how it will in the future.

I would like to know what SALVATION has been offered to individuals WHO HAVE BEEN BLINDED throughout the generations and HOW they will be judged on their works.

Not coming to Christ or GOD but 'will be grafted them back in' for the final generation, but how does that effect their lives during the millennium?

What of Judah/Jews who have never accepted Christ but do God, but will before the end?

What of the (scattered sheep) who didn't know who they were for 2000 years before Christ up through now


How did this effect the Nation of Israel as a people? How did it effect Israel as the land?

I understand what you see the WORDS as saying but let's see it working in practical terms. Because here is what I keep hearing. The people who were scattered and all their descendants have been blinded and up until the last generation will be meaning NO WORKS to be judged.

I look forward to hearing from you. Feel free to explain it like I had never heard it before.

God neve stated, nor did Paul, that God blinded the Jewish peoples, so all men, be they Jew or Gentile (as Gal 3 says) can come unto Christ, and has always been able to come unto Christ. Here is where I think people miss the mark. Right now we have 8 Billion people in the world, and 2 Billion Christians, but only 1/2 make the Rapture (5 of 10 virgin brides make the wedding) so in essence we have 1 billion true Christians out of 8 Billion people, so the world has REJECTED Jesus also, which is why this world looks nothing like a world that will soon be led by Jesus, it is in the image of Satan, Murders, hate, greed, lies lust etc. etc. So, just because God forsook Israel as a Nation, he didn't accept any other Nation, he just accepted individuals who chose to chose Jesus, and most were Gentiles, but some were also Messianic Jews. God never blinded individuals, no more than the rest of the world where 85 percent are also going to hell, its up to EACH MAN to work out his own salvation according to Paul. So, by looking at those numbers, did God REJECT the Gentiles also? No, we all rejected his free gift of Salvation in Christ Jesus, both Jew and Gentile. God chose Israel as a Nation, he had a Jewish mother fir His son Jesus. The reason it is the time of the Gentiles is because God put off the 70t week repentance for nigh 2000 years, in order for them to be ready to repent, they need to be crushed, or in need of God helping them. Any Jew for 2000 years could accept Jesus, and any Gentile could accept Jesus, but few people do, thus wide is the road to hell.

When the Rapture happens, the Two-witnesses are sent back at the 1335, and 1/3 or 3-5 million Jews repent, that's the Feast of Atonement being fulfilled, after the Feast of Trumpet (LAST TRUMP/Rapture) and thus Jesus can now return to a waiting nation of Israel who have repented, thus the Feast of tabernacle an be fulfilled, Jesus will reign in Jerusalem for 1000 years and the word TABERNACLE means to Dwell with God and Jesus is God.

The best way to find answers is to seek the Lord. No man can find God with his mind.

 

[kleronomos]

God neve stated, nor did Paul, that God blinded the Jewish peoples, so all men, be they Jew or Gentile (as Gal 3 says) can come unto Christ, and has always been able to come unto Christ. Here is where I think people miss the mark. Right now we have 8 Billion people in the world, and 2 Billion Christians, but only 1/2 make the Rapture (5 of 10 virgin brides make the wedding) so in essence we have 1 billion true Christians out of 8 Billion people, so the world has REJECTED Jesus also, which is why this world looks nothing like a world that will soon be led by Jesus, it is in the image of Satan, Murders, hate, greed, lies lust etc. etc. So, just because God forsook Israel as a Nation, he didn't accept any other Nation, he just accepted individuals who chose to chose Jesus, and most were Gentiles, but some were also Messianic Jews. God never blinded individuals, no more than the rest of the world where 85 percent are also going to hell, its up to EACH MAN to work out his own salvation according to Paul. So, by looking at those numbers, did God REJECT the Gentiles also? No, we all rejected his free gift of Salvation in Christ Jesus, both Jew and Gentile. God chose Israel as a Nation, he had a Jewish mother fir His son Jesus. The reason it is the time of the Gentiles is because God put off the 70t week repentance for nigh 2000 years, in order for them to be ready to repent, they need to be crushed, or in need of God helping them. Any Jew for 2000 years could accept Jesus, and any Gentile could accept Jesus, but few people do, thus wide is the road to hell.

When the Rapture happens, the Two-witnesses are sent back at the 1335, and 1/3 or 3-5 million Jews repent, that's the Feast of Atonement being fulfilled, after the Feast of Trumpet (LAST TRUMP/Rapture) and thus Jesus can now return to a waiting nation of Israel who have repented, thus the Feast of tabernacle an be fulfilled, Jesus will reign in Jerusalem for 1000 years and the word TABERNACLE means to Dwell with God and Jesus is God.

The best way to find answers is to seek the Lord. No man can find God with his mind.

True, it takes the leading of the Holy Spirit which comes with FAITH. We know the wisdom of men is not the way to go.

YOUR PERSONAL Rapture belief, there is NO BLINDNESS ever, and no NO NATION, until Christ returns AGAIN after the rapture of the church. There really are so many different beliefs to this. It's secret or it isn't, it's the whole church or its just part, there is blindness or there isn't, it is gentile or it is whomsoever, it is disappearing or it is transfiguring or it is death and rising, you have to believe it to receive it or it doesn't matter if you do, it is to escape GREAT tribulation or all tribulation, there is judgment going on now or it comes later, it is the body of Christ or it is the bride of Christ its quite a long list.

It isn't for those looking to pick up their cross and follow Christ, even thought those who aren't willing we are told aren't worthy.

Does the 1 billion Christian judge themselves worthy since this isn't followed?
How does that work with
Hebrews 9:26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. 27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment 28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for Him shall He appear the second time without sin unto salvation.


Those who will be staying for the tribulation are the elect, the very elect, and the saints, those who will be given up for the 10 day trial, those to be beheaded, those who will GLORY in Christ when He returns.
The WHOLE BODY is used to accomplish what GOD wants done.


WHO DECIDES WHO STAYS AND WHO GOES, AND SHOULD EVERYONE BE PREPARED FOR BOTH STAYING AND GOING?

Does being grafted in mean rapture and being natural branch mean staying? How does one know who one is?


Ephesians 4:16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love. 17 This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind 18 Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart


If the wise virgins ARE HERE to tell the foolish to go but and sell, then THE IMAGE HAS BEEN SET UP already and so they were not 'caught up to heaven' before the tribulation
Matthew 25:9 But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves.
Matthew 25:10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.


The timing of the two witnesses

Revelation 11:2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.
Revelation 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
Revelation 11:4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
Revelation 11:5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
Revelation 11:6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.
Revelation 11:7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
Revelation 11:8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
Revelation 11:9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
Revelation 11:10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.
Revelation 11:11 And after three days and an half the spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.
Revelation 11:12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.
Revelation 11:13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.

AND THEN WHAT HAPPENS? THE KINGDOMS OF THIS WORLD BECOME THE KINGDOMS OF OUR LORD
Revelation 11:14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.
Revelation 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

So the two witnesses and the image set up occur almost at the exact same time and occur at the end of the Tribulation right before GODS WRATH, GREAT tribulation.


What scripture tells us that the 1/3 Jews repent at the rapture of the church? Why does the rapture make the Jews believe? There is no prophecy that would make them expect such an event is there? I sure hope so cause I think that will clear all this up super simple. Please share this with me. Thank you

 

[ResidentAlien]

Wow, this thread got off track fast..

Yeah that happens when there are no good answers to the original question.

 

[Nehemiah6]

Yeah that happens when there are no good answers to the original question.

When there are no good questions, should anyone expect good answers?