How do you reconcile the first Commandment with the trinity?

[williamjordan]

You have not addressed the issue when God said...today I have become your father....today....it's not like a complex thing....ooh andam not a Unitarian or Socinian ....I find some of their teachings wrong....

Then go ahead and explain Mathew 19:28 , 1st Corinthians 15:24-29, Rev 22:3 and Rev 14:9-11.....and use the Bible...and probably use a bible we all have access to ....to make things easier

Yes, I did address the very thing you say I have not. Paul interprets the passage (Ps. 2:7) in Acts 13:30-33 as a reference to Jesus' resurrection and ascension to the right hand of God, duh. And that is exactly the topic under discussion in Heb. 1 and 5:5. Ps. 2:7 has nothing to do about Christ being "created" and everything to do with His resurrection and ascension; His exaltation to the right hand of God... His coronation.

 

[Franc254]

Yes, I did address the very thing you say I have not. Paul interprets the passage in Acts 13 as a reference to Jesus' resurrection and ascension to the right hand of God, duh.

So now let's go to Corinthians 15:24-29....tell us what is happening.....use the Bible alone....maybe don't use another source....

I believe that the wordings are not so complex

 

[williamjordan]

So now let's go to Corinthians 15:24-29....tell us what is happening.....use the Bible alone....maybe don't use another source....

I believe that the wordings are not so complex

The wording isn't complex. You just haven't read your NT. It's you who cannot let Paul interpret Paul. He tells you exactly what he means in Acts 13:30-33, and then again in Heb. 5:5. No need to perv out his words.

 

[Franc254]

So now let's go to Corinthians 15:24-29....tell us what is happening.....use the Bible alone....maybe don't use another source

The wording isn't complex. You just haven't read your NT. It's you who cannot let Paul interpret Paul. He tells you exactly what he means in Acts 13:30-33, and then again in Heb. 5:5. No need to perv out his words.

Let me read the acts 13 verse and understand it.....then I'll comment....but first Corinthians 15

 

[williamjordan]

Let me read the acts 13 verse and understand it.....then I'll comment....but first Corinthians 15

I'm quite familiar with 1 Cor. 15. You act like you're the only one that's read it. What about it? It only has problems when you think the Father and the Son are the same "person." You are forgetting that Trinitarians are not Unitarians. And you assume your faulty framework back onto Trinitarians like we hold to the same kind of framework.

Perhaps you'll get the answer after you've been able to make sense of Ps. 2:7 the way the NT understands it.

 

[Franc254]

I'm quite familiar with 1 Cor. 15. You act like you're the only one that's read it. What about it? It only has problems when you think the Father and the Son are the same "person." You are forgetting that Trinitarians are not Unitarians. And you assume your faulty framework back onto Trinitarians like we hold to the same kind of framework.

Perhaps you'll get the answer after you've been able to make since of Ps. 2:7 the way the NT understands it.

I know am not the only one who has read it but you know you cant explain it to support your doctrine because verses like Matthew 19:28 will be a stumbling block....again am not Unitarian man....


You can't explain that, you never could answer Timothy 6 ....

 

[williamjordan]

I know am not the only one who has read it but you know you cant explain it to support your doctrine because verses like Matthew 19:28 will be a stumbling block....again am not Unitarian man....


You can't explain that, you never could answer Timothy 6 ....

Um, yes you are a Unitarian. You absolutely are a Unitarian. I know you are in denial about it, because all Modalists are (in denial). They don't like the fact that the label "Unitarian" has been hijacked by other Unitarian subsets, i.e., "Socinians," "Biblical Unitarians," and therefore go in complete denial mode because they don't want to be associated with people who reject their view. Tough love. Misery loves company.

The Unitarian framework is quite simple: God is one sole individual. You believe it. Socinians believe it. Jehovah's Witnesses believe it. Christadelphians believe it. And so does every other Modalist out there. You all just define who that "one person" is differently. And that is the only difference. You are all Unitarian, you just define your Unitarian god by different names, titles, etc.

I'm pretty sure I answered you on 1 Tim. 6, it is not difficult to understand that shared titles do not mean they are the same person, as 1 Cor. 15 makes clear. Just because you struggle with 1 Cor. 15 doesn't mean others do. 1 Cor. 15 is not a problem at all for Trinitarians. I don't even know what the alleged "problem" is, because you haven't even stated it. But I will be more than happy to answer the objection when you have managed to articulate it.

 

[The_Watchers_2017]

The WORD became flesh.
To become "Flesh," this means the WORD was something else before He became Flesh.
What was he?

1 John 5: explains it:

From the "most Original" of ALL Greek Texts we have:

6 This is he that came through water and blood, Jesus Christ: not in the water only, but in the water and in the blood; and it is the Spirit that testifies, because the Spirit is the truth.

7 For they that testify are three,

8 the Spirit, and the water, and the blood, and the three are one.


^
Verse 8 tells us the WORD [Spirit] + "water" + "blood" = Jesus


So, the WORD, has always existed. But only truly existed in the Flesh when the WORD became Jesus.

 

[williamjordan]

The term “Unitarian” is more of a qualitative term. It describes a certain type or essence of theology, namely, that God is one sole individual. The sole “essence” of the Unitarian theological framework is simply that God is one sole individual. Where it gets more complex, is just “who” is that one individual? For the “Biblical Unitarian,” it's “the Father.” For the Christadelphian, it's “the Father.” For the Jehovah's Witness, it's “the Father.” However, for you and every other Modalist out there, it is the pre-incarnate Christ, who existed as “the Father.”

 

[Franc254]

Um, yes you are a Unitarian. You absolutely are a Unitarian. I know you are in denial about it, because all Modalists are (in denial). They don't like the fact that the label "Unitarian" has been hijacked by other Unitarian subsets, i.e., "Socinians," "Biblical Unitarians," and therefore go in complete denial mode because they don't want to be associated with people who reject their view. Tough love. Misery loves company.

The Unitarian framework is quite simple: God is one sole individual. You believe it. Socinians believe it. Jehovah's Witnesses believe it. Christadelphians believe it. And so does every other Modalist out there. You all just define who that "one person" is differently. And that is the only difference. You are all Unitarian, you just define your Unitarian god by different names, titles, etc.

I'm pretty sure I answered you on 1 Tim. 6, it is not difficult to understand that shared titles do not mean they are the same person, as 1 Cor. 15 makes clear. Just because you struggle with 1 Cor. 15 doesn't mean others do. 1 Cor. 15 is not a problem at all for Trinitarians. I don't even know what the alleged "problem" is, because you haven't even stated it. But I will be more than happy to answer the objection when you have managed to articulate it.

You never did....and you can't answer Corinthians without contradicting yourself but fine....


So Where will the father be when Jesus will be judging the world

 

[williamjordan]

You never did....and you can't answer Corinthians without contradicting yourself but fine....


So Where will the father be when Jesus will be judging the world

Again, you have not articulated an objection. What about "Corinthians" contradicts my view? Articulate the argument so I can interact with it.

 

[Franc254]

Again, you have not articulated an objection. What about "Corinthians" contradicts my view? Articulate the argument so I can interact with it.

Read my post then critique

 

[williamjordan]

Read my post then critique

I am critiquing it: You haven't elaborated. You need to elaborate so other people can understand your objection. Simply pointing to a text and claiming I haven't answered is not an "elaboration." I obviously do not understand your objection if I am calling on you to elaborate more, right?

 

[Franc254]

Read my post then critique

Earlier post that is

 

[Franc254]

I am critiquing it: You haven't elaborated. You need to elaborate so other people can understand your objection. Simply pointing to a text and claiming I haven't answered is not an "elaboration." I obviously do not understand your objection if I am calling on you to elaborate more, right?

If Jesus will give the kingdom back to the Father....why is he still a king after every thing is made new

 

[williamjordan]

If Jesus will give the kingdom back to the Father....why is he still a king after every thing is made new

The term for “made subject” (hupotageesetai) is used in contexts where the meaning can only be position and rank (not in essence or nature). This term stems from the verb hupotasso, which is used quite often in Scripture as in the following examples:

"Then He (Jesus) went down to Nazareth with them (Joseph and Mary) and was obedient (hupotassomenos) to them. (Luke 2:51)

Christ made Himself subject to His parents by virtue of His sonship. He obviously wasn’t inferior in nature to them in any way, since He is the Divine Savior who had come to save them and others from their sin (cf. Matthew 1:21). Thus, the subjection is purely one of authority and position.

"Everyone must submit (hypotassesthoo) himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established." (Romans 13:1)

Christians are commanded to submit to the governing authorities, to human rulers. This again shows that the verb relates to a subordination of authority or rank, not of essence or nature.

Christians are also commanded to submit to one another:

"Submit (hupotassomenoi) to one another out of reverence for Christ." (Ephesians 5:21)

It is only at the end of the age that Christ will then assume this subordinate role. But for now He is equal even in authority to the Father. And even after assuming the subordinate role, He will still be equal with God in nature.

The term “subject” (or “submit”) does not necessarily imply that the person that is submitting is inferior in nature and essence to the other. It can simply refer to a person being in a lesser position of authority including a voluntary submission to somebody who has no natural or enforceable position of authority, like one Christian to another.

Moreover, the context of 1 Corinthians 15:28 indicates that the Greek passive hupotageesetai should be taken as a middle voice. This would mean that the Son is not being made subject, or that someone is forcing Him to submit. Rather, the middle voice suggests that the Lord Jesus is voluntarily subjecting Himself to the Father. As Greek NT scholar Spiros Zodhiates noted:

The translation of the verb as "the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One" is very misleading. It is taken as a passive, whereas the exegesis demands that it should be taken as a middle voice which means that the Lord Jesus Christ at the completion of His mediatorial work subjects Himself to the One who had subjected all things unto Him. It is a voluntary act and not a compulsory subjugation of one person of the Trinity to the other. This is not something which took place while the Lord Jesus was the God-Man on earth, but it is something that will take place in the future when all people will be made subject unto Christ, and then He will finally subject Himself with the finished work of redemption before God the Father. One of the greatest difficulties of the translation of the N.T. lies in discerning when the passive form should be taken with the passive meaning or the middle voice meaning, as, for instance, Jesus Christ "is made subject" or He "subjects Himself." (Spiros Zodhiates, New American Hebrew-Greek Key Word Study Bible [AMG Publishers, Chattanooga, TN, 1990], p. 1530)

Thus, Christ’s submission is a voluntary act intended to bring perfect unity and peace between God and all creation, the very point Paul was making in context:

"Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. The last enemy to be destroyed is death. For he ‘has put everything under his feet.’ Now when it says that ‘everything’ has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. When he has done this, then the Son will subject himself to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all." (1 Corinthians 15:24-28)

Further, to draw this back to a text we were on a little earlier (Ps. 2:7), in Ps. 2, the rulers that were brought under subjection, does this mean they lost their status as earthly rulers?

 

[Franc254]

The term for “made subject” (hupotageesetai) is used in contexts where the meaning can only be position and rank (not in essence or nature). This term stems from the verb hupotasso, which is used quite often in Scripture as in the following examples:

​

Christ made Himself subject to His parents by virtue of His sonship. He obviously wasn’t inferior in nature to them in any way, since He is the Divine Savior who had come to save them and others from their sin (cf. Matthew 1:21). Thus, the subjection is purely one of authority and position.

​

Christians are commanded to submit to the governing authorities, to human rulers. This again shows that the verb relates to a subordination of authority or rank, not of essence or nature.

Christians are also commanded to submit to one another:

​

It is only at the end of the age that Christ will then assume this subordinate role. But for now He is equal even in authority to the Father. And even after assuming the subordinate role, He will still be equal with God in nature.

The term “subject” (or “submit”) does not necessarily imply that the person that is submitting is inferior in nature and essence to the other. It can simply refer to a person being in a lesser position of authority including a voluntary submission to somebody who has no natural or enforceable position of authority, like one Christian to another.

Moreover, the context of 1 Corinthians 15:28 indicates that the Greek passive hupotageesetai should be taken as a middle voice. This would mean that the Son is not being made subject, or that someone is forcing Him to submit. Rather, the middle voice suggests that the Lord Jesus is voluntarily subjecting Himself to the Father. As Greek NT scholar Spiros Zodhiates noted:

​

Thus, Christ’s submission is a voluntary act intended to bring perfect unity and peace between God and all creation, the very point Paul was making in context:

​

Further, to draw this back to a text we were on a little earlier (Ps. 2:7), in Ps. 2, the rulers that were brought under subjection, does this mean they lost their status as earthly rulers?

That's why I told you you could not answer that.....the verse is very clear that the submission in this part is not like the submission Christians are told to submit to each other.... remember befire that part it says he put everything under his feet....or submitting everything under his feet.so if we were to take submit from your approach then Jesus actually has no authority at all.....again you're depending on scholarly work....that's why you're making this comment....so in short if Jesus is takin a subordinate role (which I really find very shocking) ....how many kings do we actually have in heaven....man you're starting to sound polytheist now man

 

[evyaniy]

He is always obedient to His Father's will. He accomplishes His Father's will in judgment and defeating His enemies just as He did His Father's will in saving us.

 

[Franc254]

The term for “made subject” (hupotageesetai) is used in contexts where the meaning can only be position and rank (not in essence or nature). This term stems from the verb hupotasso, which is used quite often in Scripture as in the following examples:

​

Christ made Himself subject to His parents by virtue of His sonship. He obviously wasn’t inferior in nature to them in any way, since He is the Divine Savior who had come to save them and others from their sin (cf. Matthew 1:21). Thus, the subjection is purely one of authority and position.

​

Christians are commanded to submit to the governing authorities, to human rulers. This again shows that the verb relates to a subordination of authority or rank, not of essence or nature.

Christians are also commanded to submit to one another:

​

It is only at the end of the age that Christ will then assume this subordinate role. But for now He is equal even in authority to the Father. And even after assuming the subordinate role, He will still be equal with God in nature.

The term “subject” (or “submit”) does not necessarily imply that the person that is submitting is inferior in nature and essence to the other. It can simply refer to a person being in a lesser position of authority including a voluntary submission to somebody who has no natural or enforceable position of authority, like one Christian to another.

Moreover, the context of 1 Corinthians 15:28 indicates that the Greek passive hupotageesetai should be taken as a middle voice. This would mean that the Son is not being made subject, or that someone is forcing Him to submit. Rather, the middle voice suggests that the Lord Jesus is voluntarily subjecting Himself to the Father. As Greek NT scholar Spiros Zodhiates noted:

​

Thus, Christ’s submission is a voluntary act intended to bring perfect unity and peace between God and all creation, the very point Paul was making in context:

​

Further, to draw this back to a text we were on a little earlier (Ps. 2:7), in Ps. 2, the rulers that were brought under subjection, does this mean they lost their status as earthly rulers?

Greek bible don't misinteprate verses sir


Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
ei\ta ADV to; T-NSN tevlo?, N-NSN o&tan CONJ paradidw'/ V-PAS-3S th;n T-ASF basileivan N-ASF tw'/ T-DSM qew'/ N-DSM kai; CONJ patriv, N-DSM o&tan CONJ katarghvsh/ V-AAS-3S pa'san A-ASF ajrch;n N-ASF kai; CONJ pa'san A-ASF ejxousivan kai; CONJ duvnamin. N-ASF
25 For he must reign, till he hath put* all enemies under his feet.
dei' V-PQI-3S ga;r CONJ aujto;n P-ASM basileuvein V-PAN a~cri PREP ouJ' R-GSM qh'/ V-2AAS-3S pavnta? A-APM tou;? T-APM ejcqrou;? A-APM uJpo; PREP tou;? T-APM povda? N-APM aujtou'. P-GSM
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
e~scato? A-NSM ejcqro;? A-NSM katargei'tai V-PPI-3S oJ T-NSM qavnato?: N-NSM
27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith* all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
pavnta A-APN ga;r CONJ uJpevtaxen uJpo; PREP tou;? T-APM povda? N-APM aujtou'. P-GSM o&tan CONJ de; CONJ ei~ph/ V-2AAS-3S o&ti CONJ pavnta A-APN uJpotevtaktai, V-RPI-3S dh'lon A-NSN o&ti CONJ ejkto;? ADV tou' T-GSM uJpotavxanto? aujtw'/ P-DSM ta; T-APN pavnta. A-APN
28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
o&tan CONJ de; CONJ uJpotagh'/ V-2APS-3S aujtw'/ P-DSM ta; T-APN pavnta, A-NPN tovte ADV ?kai;? CONJ aujto;? P-NSM oJ T-NSM uiJo;? N-NSM uJpotaghvsetai V-2FPI-3S tw'/ T-DSM uJpotavxanti aujtw'/ P-DSM ta; T-APN pavnta, A-NPN i&na CONJ h\/ V-PXS-3S oJ T-NSM qeo;? N-NSM ?ta;? T-APN pavnta A-NPN ejn PREP pa'sin. A-DPN

 

[evyaniy]

Psalm 118

(Son to believers about Father)

118:1 Give thanks to YHVH, for He is good,
for His mercy endures forever.
118:2 Let Israel now say
that His mercy endures forever.
118:3 Let the house of Aaron now say
that His mercy endures forever.
118:4 Now let those who fear YHVH say
that His mercy endures forever.
118:5 Out of My distress, I called on YAHH(H3050).
YAHH answered Me with freedom.
118:6 YHVH is on My side. I will not be afraid.
What can man do to Me?
118:7 YHVH is on My side among those who help Me.
Therefore I will look in triumph at those who hate Me.
118:8 It is better to take refuge in YHVH,
than to put confidence in man.
118:9 It is better to take refuge in YHVH,
than to put confidence in princes.

(Son about the wicked)

118:10 All the nations surrounded Me,
but in the Name of YHVH, I cut them off.
118:11 they surrounded Me, yes, they surrounded Me.
In the Name of YHVH I indeed cut them off.
118:12 they surrounded Me like bees.
they are quenched like the burning thorns.
In the Name of YHVH I cut them off.
118:13 You pushed Me back hard, to make Me fall,

(Son about His Father saving Him)

but YHVH helped Me.
118:14 YAHH is My Strength and Song.
He has become My Salvation (Yĕshuw`ah).
118:15 The voice of rejoicing and Salvation (Yĕshuw`ah)
is in the tents of the righteous.
“The Right Hand of YHVH does valiantly.
118:16 The Right Hand of YHVH is Exalted!
The Right Hand of YHVH does valiantly!”
118:17 I will not die, but live,
and declare YAHH’s works.
118:18 YAHH has punished Me severely,
but He has not given Me over to death.

118:19 Open to Me the gates of righteousness.
I will enter into them.
I will give thanks to YAHH.
118:20 This is the Gate of YHVH;
the righteous will enter into It.
118:21 I will give thanks to You, for You have answered Me,
and have become My Salvation (Yĕshuw`ah).

(Spirit to Father about the Son)

118:22 The Stone which the builders rejected
has become the Head of the Corner.
118:23 This is YHVH’s doing.
It is marvelous in our eyes.
118:24 This is the day that YHVH has made.
We will rejoice and be glad in it!
118:25 Save us now, we beg You, YHVH!
YHVH, we beg You, send prosperity now.
118:26 Blessed is He Who comes in the Name of YHVH!
We have blessed You out of the house of YHVH.
118:27 'El is YHVH, and He has given us Light.
Bind the Sacrifice with cords,
even to the horns of the altar.

118:28 You are My 'El, and I will give thanks to You.
You are My 'Elohiym, I will exalt You.
118:29 Oh give thanks to YHVH, for He is Good,
for His mercy endures forever.