How should we understand John 17:1-3 ?

[PaulThomson]

It can be a tough call with some constructions. This is one reason I refer to these tools at times when translating to check myself or just to see what they're doing with something I may be having difficulty committing to. At times I also look at several English translations to see how translators and teams view some of the grammar.

I'm certain most English readers have little clue how many decisions a translator needs to make in dealing with this old Greek grammar. I can tell you that I've attempted to make people aware of such things like the many choices we have available when dealing with something like a simple genitive which most translators simply defer to translating as "of". But, Wallace for example, lists 33 potential translations for a genitive depending on what it is. And the precision in just this can be quite beyond the word "of".

Most at these forum levels will argue with me as if we have all we need translation-wise. It's comfortable to remain with what we've been taught. People still digging into the nuances of the Greek know otherwise.

I was talking with a translator for Wycliffe Bible translators once, who was pointing out that a translation into a new language was screened for theological orthodoxy as part of the process. Theological orthodoxy to a Calvinist would quite different from what is theologically orthodox for an anabaptist. I wonder if the involvement of Calvinists in the Bible translation industry and in the distribution of funds donated for that purpose, might partially account for the apparent logjam in the process of finalising acceptable translations of the Scriptures into new languages, despite the generous funding the industry is receiving from well-meaning donors. In their zeal for propagating their beloved TULIP, might they be using their influence in translation-related agencies to make sure the first translations unreached people groups receive are TULIP friendly/TULIP compatible?

https://ministrywatch.com/just-how-broken-is-the-bible-translation-industry/

 

[studier]

I was talking with a translator for Wycliffe Bible translators once, who was pointing out that a translation into a new language was screened for theological orthodoxy as part of the process. Theological orthodoxy to a Calvinist would quite different from what is theologically orthodox for an anabaptist. I wonder if the involvement of Calvinists in the Bible translation industry and in the distribution of funds donated for that purpose, might partially account for the apparent logjam in the process of finalising acceptable translations of the Scriptures into new languages, despite the generous funding the industry is receiving from well-meaning donors. In their zeal for propagating their beloved TULIP, might they be using their influence in translation-related agencies to make sure the first translations unreached people groups receive are TULIP friendly/TULIP compatible?

https://ministrywatch.com/just-how-broken-is-the-bible-translation-industry/

Likely little doubt this is the case. Along the way I recognized that theology found it's way into lexicons also. Translations and lixical issues are a few of the reasons I have several lexicons and theological dictionaries like TDNT to see if some cross-referencing can assist to overcome the problem.

So, I also ended up doing my own extensive work on word studies within the Text to see how God actually uses words. It can be quite the project, but, honestly, after being taught scholarly words like "hermeneutics" I came to wonder why such instruction doesn't normally include very basic word studies in the Text as part of the discipline. I've learned more from studying every instance of words in all the Text like "faith" and "save*/salvation" than I ever did from a systematic theology. In fact, doing such studies showed me certain systematics are just wrong.

I've also heard a few teachings in recent months wherein some who have relied on the Creeds and Confessions are coming to realize some are wrong and have had a wide-reaching impact on interpretations that have presupposed their accuracy. They're realizing through strict focus on the Text that some of those C & C they were taught to accept are the cause of some of the fierce theological battles in our day.

Maybe you're getting a glimpse of the fact that I don't trust men and I know I am one. But I'm wired to find none of the above as odd and some time ago I just set aside all the theological models and just sat down with the Text, all the tools I could find, and asked God to teach me. There's a reason God still has us studying and doing a lot of work in His Text and there are reasons for all the differences in interpretations. I'd just as soon be making my own mistakes.

On another but similar note, have you noticed how so very few will discuss Scripture in context? For at least 3-4 generations I've read men pointing out how teaching was pointing away from learning to read and study the Bible and to learning certain theological models instead. In my own time before reading such comments I realized the wide-spread illiteracy of the Text. It seems few are being taught to read the Text and most are taught by others what it says. IMO this is a huge problem and does not bode well for the Ekklesia.

 

[PaulThomson]

Likely little doubt this is the case. Along the way I recognized that theology found it's way into lexicons also. Translations and lixical issues are a few of the reasons I have several lexicons and theological dictionaries like TDNT to see if some cross-referencing can assist to overcome the problem.

So, I also ended up doing my own extensive work on word studies within the Text to see how God actually uses words. It can be quite the project, but, honestly, after being taught scholarly words like "hermeneutics" I came to wonder why such instruction doesn't normally include very basic word studies in the Text as part of the discipline. I've learned more from studying every instance of words in all the Text like "faith" and "save*/salvation" than I ever did from a systematic theology. In fact, doing such studies showed me certain systematics are just wrong.

I've also heard a few teachings in recent months wherein some who have relied on the Creeds and Confessions are coming to realize some are wrong and have had a wide-reaching impact on interpretations that have presupposed their accuracy. They're realizing through strict focus on the Text that some of those C & C they were taught to accept are the cause of some of the fierce theological battles in our day.

Maybe you're getting a glimpse of the fact that I don't trust men and I know I am one. But I'm wired to find none of the above as odd and some time ago I just set aside all the theological models and just sat down with the Text, all the tools I could find, and asked God to teach me. There's a reason God still has us studying and doing a lot of work in His Text and there are reasons for all the differences in interpretations. I'd just as soon be making my own mistakes.

On another but similar note, have you noticed how so very few will discuss Scripture in context? For at least 3-4 generations I've read men pointing out how teaching was pointing away from learning to read and study the Bible and to learning certain theological models instead. In my own time before reading such comments I realized the wide-spread illiteracy of the Text. It seems few are being taught to read the Text and most are taught by others what it says. IMO this is a huge problem and does not bode well for the Ekklesia.

The devil knows that once every people group has the gospel and some of each have embraced Jesus as Lord, his time is up. So anything he can do to slow that process down, keeps the final curtain from falling on his kingdom. Focussing us on debates over theological conclusions arrived at through philosophy, instead of on the actual content of scripture, helps him.

 

[studier]

The devil knows that once every people group has the gospel and some of each have embraced Jesus as Lord, his time is up. So anything he can do to slow that process down, keeps the final curtain from falling on his kingdom. Focussing us on debates over theological conclusions arrived at through philosophy, instead of on the actual content of scripture, helps him.

Agree. I used to try to explain to people that if he can't keep you from accepting the Gospel, then he will continue to try to deceive you from it, and at last case try to prevent your growth to maturity and beyond. There are reasons and forces behind not only entering but getting to both individual and corporate maturity in the unified mind of and in conformance to the Head - Christ.

 

[PaulThomson]

But all you've done is counter one translation with another to fit your thesis that - as I understand it - posits that hina + subj is only used to denote purpose/intention or result/consequence.

Why do you not see as others see that hina + subj is being used adjectively to modify the noun translated as "need"?

Do you do any diagramming? It's an interesting practice when we start attempting to attach words and phrases to others in order to best determine the mind of the author and understand his argument. It looks to me like you're saying hina+subj is more adverbial modify "have" so the result of not having is being established. But your parenthesis is making result adjectival. As far as I'm taking this at the moment, this is problematic.

I don't personally have a problem with preference in some cases, but preference should be able to be explained.

FWIW, I double-check another set of diagrams to see if there was agreement with the one I previous posted. Here's this other one. They both agree on the adjectival use of hina+subj modifying "need":

Well, brother studier, I have worked through some material on diagramming greek text, and I have created a diagram of John 17:1b - 3.

I have created it in a Microsoft Word doc. I will try to add a link to that document here, and you can comment on whether you think my diagram is one viable way to represent the text, if it works. I have used an asterisk to mark for the hard breathing, and left the soft breathing unmarked, because I have not worked out how to include those and accents yet..

https://1drv.ms/w/c/79dc8795a1450113/EZpTlpd-2e1PrRDhPQrwfEMBVTzvjQp5rPeeMaaRU3fKRg

 

[studier]

Well, brother studier, I have worked through some material on diagramming greek text, and I have created a diagram of John 17:1b - 3.

I have created it in a Microsoft Word doc. I will try to add a link to that document here, and you can comment on whether you think my diagram is one viable way to represent the text, if it works. I have used an asterisk to mark for the hard breathing, and left the soft breathing unmarked, because I have not worked out how to include those and accents yet..

https://1drv.ms/w/c/79dc8795a1450113/EZpTlpd-2e1PrRDhPQrwfEMBVTzvjQp5rPeeMaaRU3fKRg

You're a quick study! The word doc comes through just fine. I'm focusing on the hina cause in 17:3.

This is the interesting thing about diagramming. We have to make decisions where to attach clauses. The same goes for translating without diagramming. Your argument of purpose matches your diagram attaching hina to the verb.

I said earlier that the disparity between your view and the others' is the existence of the demonstrative pronoun houtos (αὕτη). We can see that this is what the others are attaching the hina to.

From here, the statistician types typically go to every one of the similar constructions in the Text to confirm their conclusions. IOW, statistically speaking, how many times is hina used to explain such a demonstrative?

I don't know if I attached this diagram earlier, but here is Leedy's:

 

[studier]

I don't now if I posted this before, but the NET Bible notes can be interesting. Daniel B. Wallace is the Sr. NT Editor of that Bible and the author of the Greek Grammar I posted from. The NET Bible will often provide notes re: translation decisions. Here's John17:3. Pardon the font issues with the diacritical marks):

NET Notes (Joh 17:3)

7 tn Using αὕτη δέ (hauteÒ de) to introduce an explanation is typical Johannine style; it was used before in John 1:19, 3:19, and 15:12.
8 sn This is eternal life. The author here defines eternal life for the readers, although it is worked into the prayer in such a way that many interpreters do not regard it as another of the author's parenthetical comments. It is not just unending life in the sense of prolonged duration. Rather it is a quality of life, with its quality derived from a relationship with God. Having eternal life is here defined as being in relationship with the Father, the one true God, and Jesus Christ whom the Father sent. Christ (Χριστός, Christos) is not characteristically attached to Jesus' name in John's Gospel; it occurs elsewhere primarily as a title and is used with Jesus' name only in 1:17. But that is connected to its use here: The statement here in 17:3 enables us to correlate the statement made in 1:18 of the prologue, that Jesus has fully revealed what God is like, with Jesus' statement in 10:10 that he has come that people might have life, and have it abundantly. These two purposes are really one, according to 17:3, because (abundant) eternal life is defined as knowing (being in relationship with) the Father and the Son. The only way to gain this eternal life, that is, to obtain this knowledge of the Father, is through the Son (cf. 14:6). Although some have pointed to the use of know (γινώσκω, ginoÒskoÒ) here as evidence of Gnostic influence in the Fourth Gospel, there is a crucial difference: For John this knowledge is not intellectual, but relational. It involves being in relationship.
9 tn Or "and Jesus the Messiah" (Both Greek "Christ" and Hebrew and Aramaic "Messiah" mean "one who has been anointed").

 

[homwardbound]

No one is required to accept the teaching of another man on the basis that that man has more scholastic qualifications. A man’s opinions are not verified by the number of his degrees, or publications, or acolytes; but by his ability to demonstrate that the facts consistently fit his thesis, and the lack of contradicting facts.

I have been spending some time looking through the NT usages of hoti and hina. Since Greenlee’s hypothesis, that the hina + subjunctive can equal a substantive devoid of any sense of consequence or intention, collapsed in the first four of his listed examples, I have arrived at a hypothesis of my own. I think the facts fit my thesis and I haven’t yet seen or heard any countervailing facts, so I invite posters to suggest some contradicting texts if they see any in scripture.

Here is my thesis.

Hoti is always followed by indicative verbs, so is used to introduce statements that the author or speaker considers definite: actions or states that definitely did occur, are definitely occurring or will definitely occur, and on the basis of which the action or state in the governing clause occurs. Hence, the clause hoti introduces can be either causative or substantive, hoti meaning either that or because.

Examples of hoti with past indicatives are John 6:26 and Mr. 11:18; with present indicatives are Lu. 19:31 and Mr. 9: 38; with future indicative are John 14:12, Rom 9:28 and Jas. 1:10

On the other hand, hina is always followed by subjunctive verbs, so is used to introduce statements that are contingent: describing states or actions that may or may not occur in the future of the governing clause. Hence, the clause that hina introduces cannot be causative or substantive, but is a contingent possibility that is either the intended or accidental consequence of the governing clause, hina meaning “so that” or “with the intention that” or “with the result that”.

I am open to someone presenting counter-examples to this hypothesis . Let’s see them if you have them. If you do, will mean I need to accommodate them by tweaking my hypothesis or discarding it. But so far, my thesis it seems sound.

Therefore, I will apply it to John 17:1-3 in my next post.

For all will know, all will decide whether or not to believe God or not! then the end and the new earth and Heavens begin. Judgment day will be finally done, hoping all will believe God above self and anyone else, having Christ the risen and their mediator between God and themselves, as God does not desire anyone to perish, his love and mercy still available to all that choose to beleive God and not be turned away from God in themselves, having new life given them to be satisfied in. Contentment in all things, whether it is good or bad at hand presently

 

[studier]

all will decide whether or not to believe God or not!

his love and mercy still available to all that choose to beleive God

Just repeating.

 

[homwardbound]

Just repeating.

the truth God loves us all, start right there in perplexity and begin to see new from God for you too,. thank you

 

[Pilgrimshope]

The Bible’s New Testament is meant to be understood by looking through the Bible’s Old Testament promises about the messiah and his kingdom.

“For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭11:13‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭5:17‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭16:16‬ ‭

“Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; and he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began. ……Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days. ( law and prophets prophesied until Jesus began to fulfil it in the gospel )

Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed. ( not just israel every nation and peoples )

Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭3:19-21, 24-26‬ ‭KJV‬‬

My point with all this is that part of the Old Testament prophecy is that the messiah , would be God manifest in the flesh the son of God revealed in mankind. He would be born of a virgin serve God on earth perfectly without sin , die for the sins of the people , rise up from death victorious then after than he would ascend into heaven and sit at Gods right hand upon the throne and return to his Glory as creator in the beginning

“These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee: as thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him. ( all creation and all people were given to him in the ot prophecy of the son all of earth and heaven every soul in them. )

And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent. I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do. And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.”
‭‭John‬ ‭17:1-5‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Jesus is speaking of his death and resurrection that was about to happen and his ascention to Gods throne in heaven where he was Coronated king

all of this I’m talking about is in prophecy just like Peter and Jesus and Paul and everyone are saying the story of the new testement before it happens is on the Old Testament prophecy throughout then it comes to pass in the New Testament

Jesus

“And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭24:44‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Paul filled with Gods spirit

“Having therefore obtained help of God, I continue unto this day, witnessing both to small and great, saying none other things than those which the prophets and Moses did say should come: that Christ should suffer, and that he should be the first that should rise from the dead, and should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭26:22-23‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Peter filled with Gods spirit

“But those things, which God before had shewed by the mouth of all his prophets, that Christ should suffer, he hath so fulfilled. Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; and he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.


Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭3:18-21, 24‬ ‭

In John 17 Jesus is praying just before he’s about to fulfill some of those suffering prophecies and his impending torturous death which was written beforehand

“Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted. But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.”
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭53:4-5‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps: who did no sin

……..who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed. For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.”
‭‭1 Peter‬ ‭2:21, 24-25‬ ‭KJV‬‬

the psalms also are prophetic about Jesus birth life ministry suffering and death and also resurrection and ascention to Gods right hand in heaven

We can study the prophets and understand the New Testament and then understand the ot as well through the gospel bieng fulfilled and preached to all people

this is how we understand things in the Bible knowing when we do we need to apply them at some point

and that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: that the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.”
‭‭2 Timothy‬ ‭3:15-17‬ ‭KJV‬‬

scripture interprets new scripture such as a prophecy is onown clearly by its fulfillment or manifestation

“ a son will be born of a virgin his name shall be Emmanuel “ this is prophetic it’s sure but has t yet happened and isn’t yet really known n detail it’s just a promise to believe in

“And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins. Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, And they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭1:21-23‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Now the prophecy is beginning to be fulfilled and revealed in the open that was promised seven hundred years beforhand

“Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.”
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭7:14‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Prayer and The Bible is the only actual way to understand the Bible we don’t have to read but hear it somehow what’s really there is what Gods really said to people and isn’t hiding things but revealing them when we look at the ordered structure prophecy foret and then fulfillment from the very beginning it’s the same God says it and then it later comes to pass in its due time

God said let there be and then there was that’s the absolute whatever God has really said in Christ

 

[homwardbound]

The Bible’s New Testament is meant to be understood by looking through the Bible’s Old Testament promises about the messiah and his kingdom.

“For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭11:13‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭5:17‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭16:16‬ ‭

“Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; and he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began. ……Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days. ( law and prophets prophesied until Jesus began to fulfil it in the gospel )

Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed. ( not just israel every nation and peoples )

Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭3:19-21, 24-26‬ ‭KJV‬‬

My point with all this is that part of the Old Testament prophecy is that the messiah , would be God manifest in the flesh the son of God revealed in mankind. He would be born of a virgin serve God on earth perfectly without sin , die for the sins of the people , rise up from death victorious then after than he would ascend into heaven and sit at Gods right hand upon the throne and return to his Glory as creator in the beginning

“These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee: as thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him. ( all creation and all people were given to him in the ot prophecy of the son all of earth and heaven every soul in them. )

And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent. I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do. And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.”
‭‭John‬ ‭17:1-5‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Jesus is speaking of his death and resurrection that was about to happen and his ascention to Gods throne in heaven where he was Coronated king

all of this I’m talking about is in prophecy just like Peter and Jesus and Paul and everyone are saying the story of the new testement before it happens is on the Old Testament prophecy throughout then it comes to pass in the New Testament

Jesus

“And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭24:44‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Paul filled with Gods spirit

“Having therefore obtained help of God, I continue unto this day, witnessing both to small and great, saying none other things than those which the prophets and Moses did say should come: that Christ should suffer, and that he should be the first that should rise from the dead, and should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭26:22-23‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Peter filled with Gods spirit

“But those things, which God before had shewed by the mouth of all his prophets, that Christ should suffer, he hath so fulfilled. Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; and he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.


Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭3:18-21, 24‬ ‭

In John 17 Jesus is praying just before he’s about to fulfill some of those suffering prophecies and his impending torturous death which was written beforehand

“Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted. But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.”
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭53:4-5‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps: who did no sin

……..who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed. For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.”
‭‭1 Peter‬ ‭2:21, 24-25‬ ‭KJV‬‬

the psalms also are prophetic about Jesus birth life ministry suffering and death and also resurrection and ascention to Gods right hand in heaven

We can study the prophets and understand the New Testament and then understand the ot as well through the gospel bieng fulfilled and preached to all people

this is how we understand things in the Bible knowing when we do we need to apply them at some point

and that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: that the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.”
‭‭2 Timothy‬ ‭3:15-17‬ ‭KJV‬‬

scripture interprets new scripture such as a prophecy is onown clearly by its fulfillment or manifestation

“ a son will be born of a virgin his name shall be Emmanuel “ this is prophetic it’s sure but has t yet happened and isn’t yet really known n detail it’s just a promise to believe in

“And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins. Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, And they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭1:21-23‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Now the prophecy is beginning to be fulfilled and revealed in the open that was promised seven hundred years beforhand

“Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.”
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭7:14‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Prayer and The Bible is the only actual way to understand the Bible we don’t have to read but hear it somehow what’s really there is what Gods really said to people and isn’t hiding things but revealing them when we look at the ordered structure prophecy foret and then fulfillment from the very beginning it’s the same God says it and then it later comes to pass in its due time

God said let there be and then there was that’s the absolute whatever God has really said in Christ

thanks, looking back to this as done for us, the people to believe God or not. Then see by God revealing gh truth to each person that will not deny God, and search it all out without any ulterior motives

We ask, I know I did, did not get, until I saw, me asking amiss, and then stopped that foolishness, learned to not be selfish, and see that first born me still is selfish. That needs to remain as dead, even though it is not yet. I die daily as Paul said. thank you Father, Son, Holy Spirit for your coverage, keeping your kids safe. Wow, woe is me Isaiah 6:1-7

 

[Pilgrimshope]

thanks, looking back to this as done for us, the people to believe God or not. Then see by God revealing gh truth to each person that will not deny God, and search it all out without any ulterior motives

We ask, I know I did, did not get, until I saw, me asking amiss, and then stopped that foolishness, learned to not be selfish, and see that first born me still is selfish. That needs to remain as dead, even though it is not yet. I die daily as Paul said. thank you Father, Son, Holy Spirit for your coverage, keeping your kids safe. Wow, woe is me Isaiah 6:1-7

This is really well said thanks


expand...
"thanks, looking back to this as done for us, the people to believe God or not. Then see by God revealing gh truth to each person that will not deny God, and search it all out without any ulterior motives"


Well said yes the gospel really gives us an outline and principles whereby we can know GOD and understand him personally one on one . Each believer will receive a portion of his spirit and become a member of his body on earth filled with his living spirit . This begins their new relationship with God like a new born child no sin , we don't yet know much , we make mistakes and gain experiences whereby his word works within us to change our desires and will


It's like the concept of a father and his children , not a god that appears in a pillar of fire and smoke telling the people get away far away or I'll destroy you .....but rather a humble man among us who laid down his own earthly life to save our souls from death which is the just and fair penalty for sin which we've all at some point commited under the old order and testament when sin was made know and imputed upon each person , now by Christ repentance and remission of sins is offered to each believer who doesn't reject Christ and his word promising lasting life in the gospel. What he said can turn us from darkness to light from sin to God it's essential to hear what the lord said about the subjects we discuss

 

[homwardbound]

This is really well said thanks


expand...
"thanks, looking back to this as done for us, the people to believe God or not. Then see by God revealing gh truth to each person that will not deny God, and search it all out without any ulterior motives"


Well said yes the gospel really gives us an outline and principles whereby we can know GOD and understand him personally one on one . Each believer will receive a portion of his spirit and become a member of his body on earth filled with his living spirit . This begins their new relationship with God like a new born child no sin , we don't yet know much , we make mistakes and gain experiences whereby his word works within us to change our desires and will


It's like the concept of a father and his children , not a god that appears in a pillar of fire and smoke telling the people get away far away or I'll destroy you .....but rather a humble man among us who laid down his own earthly life to save our souls from death which is the just and fair penalty for sin which we've all at some point commited under the old order and testament when sin was made know and imputed upon each person , now by Christ repentance and remission of sins is offered to each believer who doesn't reject Christ and his word promising lasting life in the gospel. What he said can turn us from darkness to light from sin to God it's essential to hear what the lord said about the subjects we discuss

It absolutely is: as I listen, I take all heard to Father of risen Son Jesus for me to hear and know truth of it all. not to fight anyone over it, yet have and saw my own first birth in the way many a times. Learning

Jesus took away sin, all of it at his one time willing death, once for everyone, to now be able to approach Father in trust to be made new and never by force. Which I see my first born flesh can't compute that, wants to and makes up its own way over God's done way through Son for us to be new as born again in and look good in front of others. What a waste to me now, I am not good, God Father, even as Son said it, is the only one good ever. Matt 19. I do things that I think are good and get a little pride in me over it. I ee not to get caught up in that anymore, Yet have and still can, being in a body that is not yet redeemed.
Learning new daily, seeing to stay away from the Leaven of the Pharisees (Self righteous ones) that I call a "Betty better than you" attitudes) as in Luke 18:9-14 I want mercy, I want Life and I ee there is no life in the first born me, but, just a show off, that gets rewards from people, not from God
I need God as I see you need God too, and you, I and many have God, and we each are growing in grace, given to us from God in risen Son for us. Remembering this daily, I the first born me is no good, needs to be dead and is to me as dead. to be alive to God in God's spirit and Truth as you brother are too, learning daily too

 

[Pilgrimshope]

It absolutely is: as I listen, I take all heard to Father of risen Son Jesus for me to hear and know truth of it all. not to fight anyone over it, yet have and saw my own first birth in the way many a times. Learning

Jesus took away sin, all of it at his one time willing death, once for everyone, to now be able to approach Father in trust to be made new and never by force. Which I see my first born flesh can't compute that, wants to and makes up its own way over God's done way through Son for us to be new as born again in and look good in front of others. What a waste to me now, I am not good, God Father, even as Son said it, is the only one good ever. Matt 19. I do things that I think are good and get a little pride in me over it. I ee not to get caught up in that anymore, Yet have and still can, being in a body that is not yet redeemed.
Learning new daily, seeing to stay away from the Leaven of the Pharisees (Self righteous ones) that I call a "Betty better than you" attitudes) as in Luke 18:9-14 I want mercy, I want Life and I ee there is no life in the first born me, but, just a show off, that gets rewards from people, not from God
I need God as I see you need God too, and you, I and many have God, and we each are growing in grace, given to us from God in risen Son for us. Remembering this daily, I the first born me is no good, needs to be dead and is to me as dead. to be alive to God in God's spirit and Truth as you brother are too, learning daily too

Yeah the life is here

“Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

….Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, and shall come forth;

they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life;

and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.”
‭‭John‬ ‭5:24, 28-29‬ ‭KJV‬‬

and it’s for the salvation of these people

“And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved;

but he that believeth not shall be damned.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭16:15-16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

I understand what you’re saying ……do you hear what Paul is saying to the church ? The things we hear about in church should sound somethkng like this


“when you heard about Christ and were taught in him in accordance with the truth that is in Jesus. You were taught, with regard to your former way of life, to put off your old self, which is being corrupted by its deceitful desires; to be made new in the attitude of your minds; and to put on the new self, created to be like God in true righteousness and holiness.

Therefore each of you must put off falsehood and speak truthfully to your neighbor, for we are all members of one body. “In your anger do not sin”: Do not let the sun go down while you are still angry, and do not give the devil a foothold.

Anyone who has been stealing must steal no longer, but must work, doing something useful with their own hands, that they may have something to share with those in need.

Do not let any unwholesome talk come out of your mouths, but only what is helpful for building others up according to their needs, that it may benefit those who listen.

And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

Get rid of all bitterness, rage and anger, brawling and slander, along with every form of malice. Be kind and compassionate to one another, forgiving each other, just as in Christ God forgave you.”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭4:21-32‬ ‭NIV‬‬

Do you notice how it’s an exhortation to press i to better ways continually instructions of things to stop doing and things to start doing now that we believe ?

It’s good for us to acknolwedge God is the savior and gets all the glory . As long as it doesn’t cause us to see this as irrelevant or not true for us

“Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him. For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.”
‭‭2 Corinthians‬ ‭5:9-11‬ ‭KJV‬‬

if we read things like this and can’t accept them as truth then there becomes an issue is what I’m saying . The things written to the church in the Bible is the right way to believe and live

 

[homwardbound]

Yeah the life is here

“Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

….Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, and shall come forth;

they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life;

and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.”
‭‭John‬ ‭5:24, 28-29‬ ‭KJV‬‬

and it’s for the salvation of these people

“And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved;

but he that believeth not shall be damned.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭16:15-16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

I understand what you’re saying ……do you hear what Paul is saying to the church ? The things we hear about in church should sound somethkng like this


“when you heard about Christ and were taught in him in accordance with the truth that is in Jesus. You were taught, with regard to your former way of life, to put off your old self, which is being corrupted by its deceitful desires; to be made new in the attitude of your minds; and to put on the new self, created to be like God in true righteousness and holiness.

Therefore each of you must put off falsehood and speak truthfully to your neighbor, for we are all members of one body. “In your anger do not sin”: Do not let the sun go down while you are still angry, and do not give the devil a foothold.

Anyone who has been stealing must steal no longer, but must work, doing something useful with their own hands, that they may have something to share with those in need.

Do not let any unwholesome talk come out of your mouths, but only what is helpful for building others up according to their needs, that it may benefit those who listen.

And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

Get rid of all bitterness, rage and anger, brawling and slander, along with every form of malice. Be kind and compassionate to one another, forgiving each other, just as in Christ God forgave you.”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭4:21-32‬ ‭NIV‬‬

Do you notice how it’s an exhortation to press i to better ways continually instructions of things to stop doing and things to start doing now that we believe ?

It’s good for us to acknolwedge God is the savior and gets all the glory . As long as it doesn’t cause us to see this as irrelevant or not true for us

“Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him. For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.”
‭‭2 Corinthians‬ ‭5:9-11‬ ‭KJV‬‬

if we read things like this and can’t accept them as truth then there becomes an issue is what I’m saying . The things written to the church in the Bible is the right way to believe and live

yes, agreed, interpreted from god to thee, thee, thee and thee also. God is love, that goes on forever, thanks 1 Cor 13:1-13. This is amazing grace
thanks brother in risen Son Jesus, Yashua given us from Yahweh