How the Pre-Trib Rapture Became Popular in the Modern Church

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lamad

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It all AGREES and the APostle Paul stressing this POINT - 2 Thess 2

Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to Him, we ask you, brothers, 2not to be easily disconcerted or alarmed by any spirit or message or letter seeming to be from us, alleging that the Day of the Lord has already come. 3Let no one deceive you in any way, for it will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness—the son of destruction—is revealed. 4He will oppose and exalt himself above every so-called god or object of worship. So he will seat himself in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God.

5Do you not remember that I told you these things while I was still with you? 6And you know what is now restraining him, so that he may be revealed at the proper time. 7For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work, but the one who now restrains it will continue until he is taken out of the way. 8And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will slay with the breath of His mouth and annihilate by the majesty of His arrival.
It all AGREES Yes, OF COURSE God agrees with Himself! But the gathering in Matthew 24 cannot be Paul's gathering. The signs in the sun and moon in Matthew 24 CANNOT BE the signs at the 6th seal. These are DIFFERENT events separated by over 7 years. They are separated by all the events from Revelation chapter 7 to chapter 18.

Read verses 6 through 8: I have bolded them for you. They are very clear: a POWER is restraining the Beast to prevent his revealing before the proper time. But when the time comes, that restraining power will be taken out of the way. Do you agree so far?

Now look at the last two words of verse 3: I bolded them too for your convenience. Notice that suddenly Paul wrote that the man of sin IS REVEALED. Yet, Paul has told us that he COULD NOT be revealed until the power restraining him had been taken out of the way.

How can we solve this dilemma? It must be that in verse 3a, that power restraining him was "taken out of the way."

Read these early translations - before the KJV.

1384 Wycliffe N.T. That no man deceyue you in any maner / for no but departynge aweye (or dissencon) schal come firste & the man of synne schall be schewid [shewed] the sone of perdicioune.

1534 Tyndale N.T. Let no ma deceave you by eny meanes for the lorde commeth not excepte ther come a departynge fyrst and that that synfnll man be opened ye sonne of perdicion

1535 Coverdale Bible Let no man disceaue you by eny meanes. For the LORDE commeth not, excepte the departynge come first, and that Man of Synne be opened, even the sonne of perdicion.

1539 Cranmer Great Bible Let no man deceaue you by any meanes, for the Lorde shall not come excepte there come a departinge fyrst, & that that synfull man be opened, the sonne of perdicion.

1549 Matthew's Bible Let no man deceyue you by any meanes, for the Lord commeth not, except there come a departyng first, and that, that sinful man be opened, the sonne of perdicyon

1565 Beza Bible Let no man deceiue you by any meanes: for [that day shall not come,] except there come a departing first, and that man of sinne be disclosed, [euen] the son of perdition.

1575 Geneva Bible Let no man deceiue you by any meanes for that day shal not come, except there come a departing first, and that man of sinne be disclosed, euen the sonne of perdition.

Notice that every one translated "apostasia" as a or the departing.

Did you ever look up apostasia to see what it could mean?

What does Strong’s Concordance tell us about this Greek word, “apostasia?” First, it is a compound word made up of two Greek words, “apo” and “stasia.” We get our English word “stationary” from the Greek second half of this apostasia; stationary as in not moving. For the first word, Apo, Strong’s has this:

I. of separation…
..A. of local separation,
..B. of separation of a part from the whole
......i. where of a whole some part is taken
...C. of any kind of separation of one thing from another…
...D. of a state of separation, that is of distance
......i. physical, of distance of place
......ii temporal, of distance of time

II. Of origin
...A. of the place whence anything is, comes, befalls, is taken
...B. of origin of a cause (Emphasis added.)

At the rapture, will some part of the entire population be taken? The answer is yes.
Will those taken be separated by distance? Again the answer is yes.

The other part of the compound word, 'stasia," is where we get "stationary" or "not moving" from.

Putting these two words together again as a compound word, “apo-stasia” can certainly mean a part of a whole group suddenly moved from where they were to a new location, and it happens so fast, the rest of the whole group seems stationary - not moving.

I am glad you brought this passage up. Many believe it teaches a posttrib rapture. Only a beginning student would think that. It takes study to determine Paul's meaning. The key is when one sees "is revealed."
 

lamad

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Apr 14, 2021
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Another MEGA lie coming from your pre-trib lie
"John was not talking about the days of GT Jesus spoke of. He was talking about the daily tribulation the saints have been putting up with for 2000 years. Now that is MEGA!"

OH YES THEY WERE - the LORD, PAUL and JOHN were all speaking of ALL Saints who will suffer Persecution/Death/Tribulation that will continue right up to HIS Second Coming - Immediately after the Tribulation of those days.

JESUS said it in Matt ch24
Paul said it in 2 Thess ch2
John said it in 1 John 2:14-19
James said it in chapter 5
God said it thru these THREE Prophets - NOAH, DANIEL and JOB

Brother, you have believed a lie for so long you believe it to be gospel when it is the furthest thing from God, Truth and His Word.
Your preconceived glasses caused you to not understand I was AGREEING with you!

The church has been in tribulation since Peter was put in prison and Stephen was stoned.

However, that being said, Jesus had to ADD WORDS to the days He was speaking of. Those days when the Beast and False Prophet are forcing people to take the mark or losing their head will be days of GT greater than ANY OTHER TIME in history or in the future - according to Jesus.

Did you not notice that John saw the great crowd that came out of the daily GT of the church age, BEFORE he saw any part of the 70th week and several chapters before the Beast and false prophet were seen.

Did you not notice that Paul wrote the timing of his gathering / rapture to be just before WRATH and just before the DAY?

How could you miss that WRATH and the DAY begins at the 6th seal and then John saw this great crowd in heaven right after that? Do you not pay any attention to these things? Make no mistake here: that great crowd is the raptured church, raptured JUST BEFORE Wrath and the Day of wrath, and of course before any part of the 70th week.

I suspect, even with all your talk, that you don't know where the 70th week is delineated in Revelation. It is for sure you don't know where the rapture is.
 
Aug 2, 2021
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It all AGREES Yes, OF COURSE God agrees with Himself! But the gathering in Matthew 24 cannot be Paul's gathering. The signs in the sun and moon in Matthew 24 CANNOT BE the signs at the 6th seal. These are DIFFERENT events separated by over 7 years. They are separated by all the events from Revelation chapter 7 to chapter 18.

Read verses 6 through 8: I have bolded them for you. They are very clear: a POWER is restraining the Beast to prevent his revealing before the proper time. But when the time comes, that restraining power will be taken out of the way. Do you agree so far?

Now look at the last two words of verse 3: I bolded them too for your convenience. Notice that suddenly Paul wrote that the man of sin IS REVEALED. Yet, Paul has told us that he COULD NOT be revealed until the power restraining him had been taken out of the way.

How can we solve this dilemma? It must be that in verse 3a, that power restraining him was "taken out of the way."

Read these early translations - before the KJV.

1384 Wycliffe N.T. That no man deceyue you in any maner / for no but departynge aweye (or dissencon) schal come firste & the man of synne schall be schewid [shewed] the sone of perdicioune.

1534 Tyndale N.T. Let no ma deceave you by eny meanes for the lorde commeth not excepte ther come a departynge fyrst and that that synfnll man be opened ye sonne of perdicion

1535 Coverdale Bible Let no man disceaue you by eny meanes. For the LORDE commeth not, excepte the departynge come first, and that Man of Synne be opened, even the sonne of perdicion.

1539 Cranmer Great Bible Let no man deceaue you by any meanes, for the Lorde shall not come excepte there come a departinge fyrst, & that that synfull man be opened, the sonne of perdicion.

1549 Matthew's Bible Let no man deceyue you by any meanes, for the Lord commeth not, except there come a departyng first, and that, that sinful man be opened, the sonne of perdicyon

1565 Beza Bible Let no man deceiue you by any meanes: for [that day shall not come,] except there come a departing first, and that man of sinne be disclosed, [euen] the son of perdition.

1575 Geneva Bible Let no man deceiue you by any meanes for that day shal not come, except there come a departing first, and that man of sinne be disclosed, euen the sonne of perdition.

Notice that every one translated "apostasia" as a or the departing.

Did you ever look up apostasia to see what it could mean?

What does Strong’s Concordance tell us about this Greek word, “apostasia?” First, it is a compound word made up of two Greek words, “apo” and “stasia.” We get our English word “stationary” from the Greek second half of this apostasia; stationary as in not moving. For the first word, Apo, Strong’s has this:

I. of separation…
..A. of local separation,
..B. of separation of a part from the whole
......i. where of a whole some part is taken
...C. of any kind of separation of one thing from another…
...D. of a state of separation, that is of distance
......i. physical, of distance of place
......ii temporal, of distance of time

II. Of origin
...A. of the place whence anything is, comes, befalls, is taken
...B. of origin of a cause (Emphasis added.)

At the rapture, will some part of the entire population be taken? The answer is yes.
Will those taken be separated by distance? Again the answer is yes.

The other part of the compound word, 'stasia," is where we get "stationary" or "not moving" from.

Putting these two words together again as a compound word, “apo-stasia” can certainly mean a part of a whole group suddenly moved from where they were to a new location, and it happens so fast, the rest of the whole group seems stationary - not moving.

I am glad you brought this passage up. Many believe it teaches a posttrib rapture. Only a beginning student would think that. It takes study to determine Paul's meaning. The key is when one sees "is revealed."

The 'Falling Away' is Departure from the Truth

JESUS said it first - Matt 24:9-10
Then they will hand you over to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations because of My name.
And at that time many will fall away, and they will betray one another and hate one another.

PAUL said it - 2 Thess 2:1-3
Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition,

The HOLY SPIRIT said it: 1 Timothy 4:1
Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons,

JOHN said it: 1 John 2:18-19
Children, it is the last hour; and just as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, so now many antichrists have appeared. This is how we know it is the last hour.
They went out from us, but they did not belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us.
But their departure made it clear that none of them belonged to us.

Anyone who says the falling away/departure is a 'pre-trib rapture of the church is in error, great sin and danger of judgment.
 

ewq1938

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Oct 18, 2018
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Anyone who says the falling away/departure is a 'pre-trib rapture of the church is in error, great sin and danger of judgment.

It's pretty clear that doctrine will lead people into Apostasy since they themselves want to be a part of apostasia. Instead of accepting the actual definition of the word, they go to two root words so they can avoid word's meaning and change meaning into something else. The other poster did that in his post. It's called root fallacy. How much clearer can their error be?
 
Aug 2, 2021
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It's pretty clear that doctrine will lead people into Apostasy since they themselves want to be a part of apostasia. Instead of accepting the actual definition of the word, they go to two root words so they can avoid word's meaning and change meaning into something else. The other poster did that in his post. It's called root fallacy. How much clearer can their error be?
It is actually quite terrifying and makes me fall to my knees before the Lord in grateful adoration that He has protected me/us from it.

i see a terrifying trend of the complete disregard of the Lord's warnings in Deut 4:1-2, Prov 30:5-6 and Rev 22:18-19

This is the one I will esteem:
he who is humble and contrite in spirit,
who trembles at My word.

You who tremble at His word,
hear the word of the LORD:
“Your brothers who hate you
and exclude you because of My name
have said, ‘Let the LORD be glorified
that we may see your joy!’
But they will be put to shame.”
Isaiah 66
 
May 22, 2020
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358
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The 'Falling Away' is Departure from the Truth

JESUS said it first - Matt 24:9-10
Then they will hand you over to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations because of My name.
And at that time many will fall away, and they will betray one another and hate one another.

PAUL said it - 2 Thess 2:1-3
Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition,

The HOLY SPIRIT said it: 1 Timothy 4:1
Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons,

JOHN said it: 1 John 2:18-19
Children, it is the last hour; and just as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, so now many antichrists have appeared. This is how we know it is the last hour.
They went out from us, but they did not belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us.
But their departure made it clear that none of them belonged to us.

Anyone who says the falling away/departure is a 'pre-trib rapture of the church is in error, great sin and danger of judgment.

It is a pre-pre trib conditioning process leading up to the great tribulation. (yes...i meant pre-pre trib).
 
Aug 2, 2021
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It is a pre-pre trib conditioning process leading up to the great tribulation. (yes...i meant pre-pre trib).
Double Negative: a grammatically substandard but emphatic negative

Emphatic: Expressed or performed with emphasis.

You have emphatically proclaimed a falsehood upon falsehood unashamedly in front of clear Scriptural warning.

For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear.
2 Timothy 4:3
 

GaryA

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Aug 10, 2019
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Did you not stop to think that when Jesus taught the people about the end of their age, the Gentile church of today DID NOT EXIST. In fact, no part of the church existed at that time.
The existence of the Church began the day Christ was baptized - when He was "anointed" as the head of His Church.

Afterward, He went about calling out disciples and adding them to His Church - which [existed and] grew throughout His ministry until (and after) the cross.

Pentecost was an/the empowering of the [already existing] Church by the Holy Spirit - not the start of its existence.
 

GaryA

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Aug 10, 2019
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Make no mistake, we are living in the dispensation of the Gentile church - PAUL's church. He started it. The Jewish church died out in the first century. When the Gentile church ENDS with the rapture, TIME will go right back to Jewish time. The Day of the Lord will start, and very shortly after that, the 70th week will start: JEWISH time. The church will be in heaven.
"Boy, have you been misinformed..."

Jesus started His Church.

It is His Church. (His Body.)

Paul did not start it.

Peter did not start it.

Nobody else started it.

There is only one Church (Christian) - not two. (Jew and Gentile)

And, it has never gone out of existence on the earth since Christ started it.

There is no more 'Jewish Time' - the 'Times of the Jews' is over.

Yes - Israel "still has a part to play" during the 1000-year reign of Christ; however, Jesus Himself will bring that about after He returns to set up His Millenial Kingdom.

It is now the 'Times of the Gentiles' - and will be until the Second Coming of Christ.

The Church will never end - not even at the rapture.

The Day of the Lord begins the moment Christ returns. (i.e. - 'appears' or "shows up")

The 70th week ended in 34 A.D.

The Church will be with Christ on earth.
 

lamad

Well-known member
Apr 14, 2021
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The existence of the Church began the day Christ was baptized - when He was "anointed" as the head of His Church.

Afterward, He went about calling out disciples and adding them to His Church - which [existed and] grew throughout His ministry until (and after) the cross.

Pentecost was an/the empowering of the [already existing] Church by the Holy Spirit - not the start of its existence.

I guess this depends on how one defines "church." Certainly the disciples were called. But they were not born again until later.

The true church of the firstborn started when Jesus breathed on the 120 and said, "receive the Holy Spirit." To be a true Christian one must be "born again" and that experience was not available or possible before Christ rose from the dead. The true church is made up of Born again saints. A lot of people call themselves "Christian" today but have never been born again. They may well attend a church, but are not a part of the True church that will be caught up.

I agree, they were born again before the day of Pentecost. That day was their anointing as they were baptized in the Holy Spirit.
I was speaking of this "church:

Hebrews 12:23
To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
 

GaryA

Truth, Honesty, Love, Courage
Aug 10, 2019
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Maybe i read this wrong - let me know - Thank You
I am quite sure that you read it wrong - AND - (in my opinion) what you posted in post #3087 is factually wrong ("grammatically") and was unprovoked.

Take a breather, brother. Relax a bit. Take your finger off the trigger...

"Just tellin' it like I see it..."

:coffee:
 

lamad

Well-known member
Apr 14, 2021
1,293
107
63
"Boy, have you been misinformed..."

Jesus started His Church.

It is His Church. (His Body.)

Paul did not start it.

Peter did not start it.

Nobody else started it.

There is only one Church (Christian) - not two. (Jew and Gentile)

And, it has never gone out of existence on the earth since Christ started it.

There is no more 'Jewish Time' - the 'Times of the Jews' is over.

Yes - Israel "still has a part to play" during the 1000-year reign of Christ; however, Jesus Himself will bring that about after He returns to set up His Millenial Kingdom.

It is now the 'Times of the Gentiles' - and will be until the Second Coming of Christ.

The Church will never end - not even at the rapture.

The Day of the Lord begins the moment Christ returns. (i.e. - 'appears' or "shows up")

The 70th week ended in 34 A.D.

The Church will be with Christ on earth.
I could say the same thing: "Boy, are you misinformed."

For example, the Day of the Lord begins at the 6th seal over 7 years before Christ returns to Armageddon.

OF COURSE there will be "Jewish time." the 70th week of Daniel is future and it is certianly Jewish time. Their 70 weeks is not finished.

I agree, it is now the time of the Gentiles. It is not the "church" that will end - it is the church AGE. "TIIME" will change from church age to Day of the Lord, when Jesus opens the 6th seal.

I suspect we will disagree. I wonder though: WHY would you believe the DAY starts when He comes, when John shows us exactly when "the DAY" starts. Do you disagree with John? Or do you, like others, try and move the 6th seal to the time of His coming to Armageddon?
 

lamad

Well-known member
Apr 14, 2021
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It is actually quite terrifying and makes me fall to my knees before the Lord in grateful adoration that He has protected me/us from it.

i see a terrifying trend of the complete disregard of the Lord's warnings in Deut 4:1-2, Prov 30:5-6 and Rev 22:18-19

This is the one I will esteem:
he who is humble and contrite in spirit,
who trembles at My word.

You who tremble at His word,
hear the word of the LORD:
“Your brothers who hate you
and exclude you because of My name
have said, ‘Let the LORD be glorified
that we may see your joy!’
But they will be put to shame.”
Isaiah 66
Please explain why Paul wrote "is revealed" in verse 3 but also wrote that it cannot happen until verses 6-8 come to pass.
Also please explain why Paul wrote in verse 6: "and now you know..."

You should know that words can have more than one meaning.

Finally, the Greek word, apostasia, does NOT tell what is being departed from. Why they would you insist on believing it is a falling away from truth or from Jesus? It must be you are adding to the written word to make it say what you expect it to say. My my!
 

GaryA

Truth, Honesty, Love, Courage
Aug 10, 2019
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The 6th seal 'events' cover a span that runs from Trumpet 1 to Vial 7.
 

lamad

Well-known member
Apr 14, 2021
1,293
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It's pretty clear that doctrine will lead people into Apostasy since they themselves want to be a part of apostasia. Instead of accepting the actual definition of the word, they go to two root words so they can avoid word's meaning and change meaning into something else. The other poster did that in his post. It's called root fallacy. How much clearer can their error be?
Just so you have it right: Apo and Stasia are not "root" words: they are two parts of a compound word.

Here is an example of a compound English word: "paradigm."

Para reminds us of parallel lines or paratroopers that march side by side. "Digm" is a display or a showing or an example. Put them together and the meaning is to bring two things up close and parallel so as to compare or display them for comparison. However, today the meaning has changed to be some kind of a model or a shift from one thing to another. It seems the added meaning from "para" has been lost.

Are you going to insist that a compound word loses it meaning of each separate word?
Did you forget that several of the first translations translated that word as a departing? That is a better translation than "falling away" because most people add meaning to falling away and inside it is a falling away from truth.

What are you going to do with "is revealed" in 3b? Just ignore it?
What you are going to do about "And now you know what [who] is restraining...?"
How are you going to include Paul's theme for the passage in your theories?

All of these must be considered when discovering Paul's intended meaning.
 

ewq1938

Well-known member
Oct 18, 2018
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Just so you have it right: Apo and Stasia are not "root" words: they are two parts of a compound word.
Same concept. Root words are the origin of a new word.

Apo and Stasia have different meanings than the word they form:

G646
ἀποστασία
apostasia
ap-os-tas-ee'-ah
Feminine of the same as G647; defection from truth (properly the state), (“apostasy”): - falling away, forsake.
Total KJV occurrences: 2

This is not a physical departure as in a Rapture. It is a defection from truth which is Apostasy. If that's what you want to partake in, you will be given the opportunity.
 
Aug 2, 2021
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"Boy, have you been misinformed..."

Jesus started His Church.

It is His Church. (His Body.)

Paul did not start it.

Peter did not start it.

Nobody else started it.

There is only one Church (Christian) - not two. (Jew and Gentile)

And, it has never gone out of existence on the earth since Christ started it.

There is no more 'Jewish Time' - the 'Times of the Jews' is over.

Yes - Israel "still has a part to play" during the 1000-year reign of Christ; however, Jesus Himself will bring that about after He returns to set up His Millenial Kingdom.

It is now the 'Times of the Gentiles' - and will be until the Second Coming of Christ.

The Church will never end - not even at the rapture.

The Day of the Lord begins the moment Christ returns. (i.e. - 'appears' or "shows up")

The 70th week ended in 34 A.D.

The Church will be with Christ on earth.
And you thought i was the one way off the charts..........

pre-trib is a cascade of lies