How the Pre-Trib Rapture Became Popular in the Modern Church

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lamad

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Apr 14, 2021
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So what you are saying is that those who do not expect him to come at any moment, pre-tribulation are not saved.
I did not say that. I just pointed you to what Paul wrote. Jesus will appear to those who are looking for Him. Nothing was said about what will happen to those NOT looking for Him. It seems God leaves the flip side of this verse up to us to figure out.

Is it possible for one born again to believe they will see the Beast first? What do you think?
 
Aug 2, 2021
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I finally understand: you don't know the difference between good exegesis and "twist." For the 2 Thes. 2 passage:
Can you explain to us why Paul wrote, "and now you know...? I wonder, do YOU know?
Can you explain why Paul wrote in 3b IS revealed?
Can you describe the parallelism in this passage?
I wonder: can you explain this passage to those of us who "twist" it? Who knows? Perhaps we can learn. What is Paul really teaching?

As for being "left behind:" We did not write 1 Thes. Paul did. We did not write Hebrews: Paul did.
I did not separate Jew from Gentile: Paul did.

Just so you know, WE KNOW what is coming: Jesus is coming for His bride. Those who EXPECT Him will see Him.
You are a mere child of idolatry - blind leading the blind - You were warned and the LORD knows and sees where men are blind.

"Therefore speak to them and tell them that this is what the Lord GOD says: ‘When any Israelite sets up idols in his heart and puts a wicked stumbling block before his face, and then comes to the prophet, I the LORD will answer him according to his great idolatry,"

Remain as you are.
 

lamad

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Apr 14, 2021
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And this is your problem----
Instead of accepting what Scripture says, you twist it to support what you believe.
The conclusions you come to are based on not understanding or accepting what Scripture says.

Please tell us your opinion of when the Old Testament saints are caught up.
Please point to a specific: show us the verse and show me where I did not accept it.

John never saw the Old Testament saints rise in his vision, so never wrote it. However, scripture does leave us hints.

My guess is, their resurrection will be at the 7th vial that ends the week.
 

lamad

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Apr 14, 2021
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You are a mere child of idolatry - blind leading the blind - You were warned and the LORD knows and sees where men are blind.

"Therefore speak to them and tell them that this is what the Lord GOD says: ‘When any Israelite sets up idols in his heart and puts a wicked stumbling block before his face, and then comes to the prophet, I the LORD will answer him according to his great idolatry,"

Remain as you are.
We already know your opinion of all those who believe in a pretrib rapture.
You are going to be very shocked when you discover pretrib is truth!!!!!

We can talk about it during the 1000 year reign. I expect you to be there.
 
D

DWR

Guest
I did not say that. I just pointed you to what Paul wrote. Jesus will appear to those who are looking for Him. Nothing was said about what will happen to those NOT looking for Him. It seems God leaves the flip side of this verse up to us to figure out.

Is it possible for one born again to believe they will see the Beast first? What do you think?
So you are implying that people like me who do not believe in the pre-trib rapture are not saved.
I am a child of God. A born again believer. One who accepts what the Scripture clearly states.
ALL saints will be gathered at His second coming. This is the First resurrection. ALL who are not in the FIRST resurrection will suffer the second death which is eternal Hell.
 
D

DWR

Guest
An old friend once said "talking to some folks is like talking to a fence post".
Lot of fence post here. Think I will stop wasting my time.
 
D

DWR

Guest
Why do people come in here and snipe members with red exes and leave?

Seems cowardly
A red X simply means a strong disagreement of what is said. Nothing personal.

Why do some put people on ignore who disagree with them or simply do not respond to their questions?
That seems cowardly to me.
 

lamad

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Apr 14, 2021
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So you are implying that people like me who do not believe in the pre-trib rapture are not saved.
I am a child of God. A born again believer. One who accepts what the Scripture clearly states.
ALL saints will be gathered at His second coming. This is the First resurrection. ALL who are not in the FIRST resurrection will suffer the second death which is eternal Hell.
No, that is not at all what Paul wrote. It is VERY DIFFICULT once one is born again, to get UN-born again.

What Paul wrote is very clear, Jesus will appear to those who are LOOKING FOR HIM. It is assumed "looking for Him" when He comes.
Then I asked, in your mind, is it possible for someone born again to NOT be looking for Him because of their belief system - thinking in their mind that they will see the Beast first.

If it is possible for someone to be expecting Jesus at any time, while expecting to see the Beast first, I congratulate them. In my mind it is impossible.

Just to be perfectly clear, I THINK this verse is saying that those who are not looking for His coming will be left behind, even if they are born again. Again, I didn't write it, Paul did. Maybe you can read this verse and come up with another meaning.

You say "all saints will be gathered at His second coming." I disagree: His second coming will be only to the air and back to heaven to wait out the days of His wrath poured out as the trumpet and vial judgments.

When He comes to Armageddon, His third coming, all the saints will be coming WITH HIM, having spent the week in heaven, enjoying the homes He has prepared for us. In other words, all saints will have resurrection bodies and there will be NO NEED to "gather" those coming with Him.

The gathering there is for all the Jews and Hebrews around the world who will have survived the 70th week. God will gather all of Jacob back to Israel to watch the sheep and goat judgment.

I could not get anyone else to answer this question: perhaps you can answer it.

If the resurrection (into resurrection bodies) is to happen at His Armegeddon coming, how is Jesus to find sheep (righteous men in natural bodies) for His judgment of the nations? All the righteous will have been changed into resurrection bodies.

Finally, how will you get to heaven for the marriage and supper?
 

lamad

Well-known member
Apr 14, 2021
1,293
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So you are implying that people like me who do not believe in the pre-trib rapture are not saved.
I am a child of God. A born again believer. One who accepts what the Scripture clearly states.
ALL saints will be gathered at His second coming. This is the First resurrection. ALL who are not in the FIRST resurrection will suffer the second death which is eternal Hell.
I hope you realize that "first" in this case does not mean first in a sequence, but rather first in honor, as in chief of resurrections. Neither does it mean that there cannot be other resurrections before this one. The truth is, this chief of resurrections is for ALL the righteous and Jesus was the first to partake of this chief of resurrections.

In other words, if we look up the Greek word behind "first" we find it can be first in sequence but it can also be first in honor. Since we KNOW Jesus' resurrection could not be of the "second death" resurrection, His resurrection must then be a part of the other resurrection, since John gives us only two.

As I read scripture, Jesus was the first to partake of this chief of all resurrections, the next wave will be the church, pretrib, then the 144,000 as firstfruits of the Hebrews, then the Old Testament saints, along with the Two Witnesses and the beheaded last.

Note: John told us of this chief of all resurrections in chapter 20, but it covers all time. It is not limited to the timing of chapter 20.

ALL who are not in the FIRST resurrection will suffer the second death which is eternal Hell
I agree, unless there will still be people in natural bodies.
 

lamad

Well-known member
Apr 14, 2021
1,293
107
63
You are a mere child of idolatry - blind leading the blind - You were warned and the LORD knows and sees where men are blind.

"Therefore speak to them and tell them that this is what the Lord GOD says: ‘When any Israelite sets up idols in his heart and puts a wicked stumbling block before his face, and then comes to the prophet, I the LORD will answer him according to his great idolatry,"

Remain as you are.
I notice, even though you disagree, you never answer questions.
 

TheDivineWatermark

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Aug 3, 2018
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Hi!
Exactly! Amen!
--------
There are DIFFERENT harvests in the Bible…
1) The Barley Harvest
BARLEY. The barley is winnowed. That simply means that it is thrown up into the air, because it is easy enough to remove the chaff from the grain in this manner. This is traditionally done by repeatedly tossing the grain up into a light wind. And the wind gradually blows the lighter chaff away.
2) The Wheat Harvest
WHEAT. The process is different with wheat. Throwing it into the air would not be adequate to remove the chaff. So it is threshed. In other words, it is beaten because it requires more effort to remove the chaff from the grain.
3) The Grape Harvest
GRAPES. The process with grapes is different.
Grapes are crushed.

God Bless!
Good post. (y)




Revelation 14 shows the symbolic Bride of Christ = 144k who have not been rapture as Revelation chapters 1 - 13 declare.
Revelation 14:4 says (re: the 144,000), "These are they who have not been defiled with women; for they are pure, these following the Lamb wherever He shall go. These have been redeemed out from men as firstfruits to God and to the Lamb." (compare with Lev23:17... the second of two distinct mentions of "firstfruit" in Lev23).


What do you believe it means by its saying they are "firstfruit"? (since we / "the Church which is His body" are also called "firstfruit")



[again, as I said before, the word "firstfruit" "rapture"... they don't mean the same thing (are not "defined" the same)... but my question to you, DavidTree, is... what does it mean for the "144,000" (12,000 from each of the 12 tribes of the nation of Israel listed in chpt 7) to be called "firstfruit" (Rev14:4)?? "Firstfruit" what??]
 

lamad

Well-known member
Apr 14, 2021
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And this is your problem----
Instead of accepting what Scripture says, you twist it to support what you believe.
The conclusions you come to are based on not understanding or accepting what Scripture says.

Please tell us your opinion of when the Old Testament saints are caught up.
I did not realize that had not studied the 144, 000.

7:4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

I don't know how this could be any plainer: they are descendants of Jacob.
 

lamad

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Apr 14, 2021
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No one taught a pre-trib rapture until John Darby, and Anglican preacher, in the mid 1800s. So the teaching is relatively new. Now, being new does not necessarily mean a teaching is defunct: while God never changes, He reveals knowledge and understanding in a progressive manner. Things that we have not contemplated before, suddenly come alive to us in the scriptures. So, while the ideas are new to us, they were always established in the mind of God.

But the manner is which things are "revealed" should be examined. So let's look at the manner in which the doctrine of the pre-trib rapture came to be a Baptist staple.

Dwight Young, professor emeritus at Brandeis University of Near Eastern and Judaic Studies, personally corresponded with a friend of mine several years ago. My friend was a young lawyer ( as an aside, had George Bush Senior been elected for a second term, there is a good possibility that my friend would have been chosen as a state supreme court judge.) Dwight was a student at Dallas Theological Seminary at the same time Hal Lindsey studied there, so this is more than 50 years ago or so. They were graduate students.

Dwight said the professors were discussing Darbyism, and whether or not it was a valid theology. This graduate student, Hal Lindsey, wrote a master’s thesis on the subject of this form of dispensationalism and the rapture. He later turned that thesis into a book called The Late Great Planet Earth. Now some of you may not know about this book, but it was a runaway bestseller. It made a lot of money. According to Dwight, that is where the Baptists made the switch. They saw that there was a market for this doctrine, and they ran with it. Dwight later moved up to and was a professor of biblical studies, biblical languages at Brandeis University, from which he retired, and he was in a state of retirement when my friend met him. So, 50 years from the writing of a master's thesis, the teaching is so entrenched in the Baptist circles you would think it was the gospel.

Historically, nobody ever thought of this doctrine before Darby. But once he popularized it in the context of dispensationalism, meaning things wrap up within blocks of time, people began to embrace it because they did not have to trust the Holy Spirit. If you are going to have any measure of understanding of prophetic Scripture, the end from the beginning and where we are at this point in time, you are going to have to walk in the Spirit. He is the One who wrote the Book; He is the One who is perfectly capable of interpreting it. And the folly of logic and reason and man-made constructs, such as dispensationalism, will lead you to increasing folly, such as the rapture.

God knows the end from the beginning, and the greatest moment of the Body of Christ is in the midst of the darkness in Revelation. That darkness has no potential to blunt our display of the glory of God, the radiance of God’s glory, or to represent Him exactly. It has no ability to influence that at all. This is the time for the glory of what God has been doing, when He established the heavens and the earth for the purpose of establishing a corporate man in creation so that He might be seen in creation as who He is. He is on a path wherein not only will He show who He is in all of His glory through the corporate body, but He will bring the enemy to judgment as well.

Grace and Peace,

Aaron56
Hmmm. The very first post of this thread:

"No one taught a pre-trib rapture until John Darby, " This theory has been debunked over and over. It is nothing but myth.
"Historically, nobody ever thought of this doctrine before Darby. " This theory has been debunked over and over. It is nothing but myth.

"man-made constructs, such as dispensationalism," Sorry, but it was GOD that sent Moses with the Law. Later it was GOD come in the flesh to fulfill the law. It was GOD who sent Paul to the Gentiles. These events caused "dispensations" where the way God dealt with man changed.

By the way, readers, it was GOD who sent PAUL to write of a rapture before the 70th week. No one can say Darby did it first - PAUL write it first.

This thread was started with error.
 
Aug 2, 2021
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I notice, even though you disagree, you never answer questions.
You are a late comer here - ALL questions have been answered.

A.) Ignorance of Scripture = "You are absolutely amazing: now you have the Old Testament saints "born again!" According to you then, Jesus did not have to die. WOW! Where do you find this in scripture?"


B.) More Ignorance of Scripture = "More beginner stuff! Did you not READ? The 144,000 are descendants of JACOB: JEWS and from all the tribes. No wonder we seldom agree."

C.) Worse then Ignorance - SIN = "As for being "left behind:" We did not write 1 Thes. Paul did. We did not write Hebrews: Paul did.
I did not separate Jew from Gentile: Paul did. "

Well, at least i know my ABC's...........
 
Aug 2, 2021
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Good post. (y)






Revelation 14:4 says (re: the 144,000), "These are they who have not been defiled with women; for they are pure, these following the Lamb wherever He shall go. These have been redeemed out from men as firstfruits to God and to the Lamb." (compare with Lev23:17... the second of two distinct mentions of "firstfruit" in Lev23).


What do you believe it means by its saying they are "firstfruit"? (since we / "the Church which is His body" are also called "firstfruit")



[again, as I said before, the word "firstfruit" "rapture"... they don't mean the same thing (are not "defined" the same)... but my question to you, DavidTree, is... what does it mean for the "144,000" (12,000 from each of the 12 tribes of the nation of Israel listed in chpt 7) to be called "firstfruit" (Rev14:4)?? "Firstfruit" what??]
These answers are clear in Scripture but when a person places an idol in front of Scripture the person cannot see but for the idol.

Does not Scripture say this?
 

lamad

Well-known member
Apr 14, 2021
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These answers are clear in Scripture but when a person places an idol in front of Scripture the person cannot see but for the idol.

Does not Scripture say this?
Sad but true: what you imagine is an idol turns out to be truth. God is pretrib.
 

lamad

Well-known member
Apr 14, 2021
1,293
107
63
You are a late comer here - ALL questions have been answered.

A.) Ignorance of Scripture = "You are absolutely amazing: now you have the Old Testament saints "born again!" According to you then, Jesus did not have to die. WOW! Where do you find this in scripture?"


B.) More Ignorance of Scripture = "More beginner stuff! Did you not READ? The 144,000 are descendants of JACOB: JEWS and from all the tribes. No wonder we seldom agree."

C.) Worse then Ignorance - SIN = "As for being "left behind:" We did not write 1 Thes. Paul did. We did not write Hebrews: Paul did.
I did not separate Jew from Gentile: Paul did. "

Well, at least i know my ABC's...........
You are sure going to be SHOCKED when Jesus comes PRETRIB for His bride!