How the Pre-Trib Rapture Became Popular in the Modern Church

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Aug 2, 2021
7,317
2,048
113
Sorry to disappoint you, but I do find it silly to equate two things are are not in any way similar. Only a beginning bible student would equate the signs at the 6th seal with the signs after the trib of those days. Why? Simple: they are two different signs that will happen over 7 years apart and they are signs for two different events.

It seems you are averse to good bible study. You - who seem to have all the answers - albeit WRONG answers.
Prove me wrong: answer the questions asked of you? Perhaps it is you who is too proud. Remember Jesus' story of the log in one's eye? You are too funny!
You said: "Sorry to disappoint you, but I do find it silly to equate two things are are not in any way similar. Only a beginning bible student would equate the signs at the 6th seal with the signs after the trib of those days. Why? Simple: they are two different signs that will happen over 7 years apart and they are signs for two different events. "

This gave me a very good laugh - thanks for the free laughter
 

GaryA

Truth, Honesty, Love, Courage
Aug 10, 2019
9,883
4,346
113
mywebsite.us
Let's add verses 6-8 to get a complete picture:

1 Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to Him: We ask you, brothers,
[ Here Paul sets his THEME for this passage (so they must be included in any exegesis) His coming and our gathering.]

2 not to be easily upset in mind or troubled, either by a spirit or by a message or by a letter as if from us, alleging that the Day of the Lord has come. [Apparently they received a letter telling them that the Day of the Lord had already come and they were IN IT. It must be noted that when they began to believe they were IN the Day of the lord, they were upset and troubled.]

3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way. For that day will not come unless the apostasy comes first and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction. [ Here Paul is starting his argument as to why they were NOT inside the Day of the Lord. ]

4 He opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he sits in God’s sanctuary, publicizing that he himself is God. [Here Paul tells us what the man of sin will do after he is revealed.]

5 Don’t you remember that when I was still with you I told you about this? [Paul had explained this when he was there.]

6 And you know what currently restrains him, so that he will be revealed in his time. [Here Paul tells the readers that now, after reading the first 5 verses, all readers should KNOW who or what the restrainer is, and that the man of sin will be revealed at the proper time.]

7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work, but the one now restraining will do so until he is out of the way, [Here Paul explains that the devil was already at work, but was being restrained until such time as he - the restraining power - is "taken out of the way."]

8 and then the lawless one will be revealed. The Lord Jesus will destroy him with the breath of His mouth and will bring him to nothing with the brightness of His coming. [Here Paul tells us that once the power - the HE - restraining the man of sin, preventing his revealing until the proper time, will be taken out of the way, THEN the man of sin will be revealed.]

Verse 1: somewhere in this passage Paul MUST show the gathering - the rapture. It is his theme.

Verse 2: Why were they so upset and troubled after learning the falsehood that they were in the Day of the Lord? If Paul had taught them that they would be raptured after all the "tribulation" then they should have been excited thinking the rapture must come soon.

On the other hand, if Paul had taught them that the rapture would come before the Day (EXACTLY what his first letter told them) and then they began to believe that the Day had come and they were in it - no wonder they were troubled. Either Paul had been mistaken, or they had missed the gathering!

Verse 3: I will sum up Paul's argument: Don't be deceived: a significant departing must come first, as the restrainer being "taken out of the way," then the man of sin will be revealed. Anyone who sees this significant departing, then sees the man of sin revealed will KNOW the Day has come and they are IN IT.

This is John's order of things in Revelation: the DAY comes at the 6th seal in chapter 6, and the man of sin is revealed somewhere before chapter 3. By that time (chapter 13) all will know THE DAY has started and they are in it. John and Paul agree.

Now lets drill down: Why did Paul write, "and now you know who is restraining..." in verse 6? The answer should be obvious: somewhere in verses 1-5 PAUL TOLD US - but perhaps did it in a cloaked manner so wrote "now you know" so the reader would go back and find it.

ANY correct theory on Paul's meaning MUST include WHO the restrainer is. The truth is, most people only guess and often guess wrong. The question is, WHERE in verses 1-5 does Paul revealed who the restrainer is? It is in verse 3, but again, with a false theory most are in error.

Why did Paul release (remove the restrainer) the man of sin in 3b? MANY English translations have "is revealed." Verse 4 proves Paul's meaning as "Is revealed" because verse 4 tells us what the man of sin will do after he is revealed. Since verses 6-8 tell us he CANNOT be revealed until the power restraining this revealing is "taken out of the way" then any serious student must ask HOW did he get revealed (IS revealed) in 3b? It should be obvious (most beginning students miss it) that somewhere in verse 3a, the power restraining the man of sin is taken out of the way. It MUST be somewhere in these words: Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way. For that day will not come unless the apostasy comes first....

The restrainer taken out of the way CANNOT be hidden in "Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way."
"For that day..." What day? Of course the Day of the Lord from verse 2. Can the restrainer removed be hidden in "for that day?" No. We are down now to the last phrase: unless the apostasy comes first.

Somehow, the restrainer taken out of the way MUST BE hidden in this phrase. If we use the KJV solution - the "falling away" then a falling away (from what we don't know) must be the restrainer removed. Frankly, I can't see how people falling away from something or NOT falling away from something can have anything to do with restraining.

Next, is a "falling away" the same thing as a gathering - Paul showing us where his theme is fulfilled? No, it cannot be.

If we just "departing" as several of the PRE-KJV translations used, what then could a "significant departing" mean? (All Greek texts have a THE before apostasia - it is not just any departing, it is THE departing. In other words, a departing ALL READERS should know about. Would the departing of the church at the rapture be a departing all Paul's readers would know about? Certainly it would be, and the departing of the church in the rapture would SATISFY Paul's theme.

If by "the departing" Paul's intent is the rapture, then who is the "He" that is restraining or preventing the man of sin from being revealed before his time? That would be the Holy Spirit anointing upon each believer. Once the church has departed earth, suddenly there is NO ONE on earth anointed by the Holy Spirit. This is what will allow the man of sin to be revealed, as Paul in his argument shows us in 3b.

Now we know why Paul wrote, "and now you know what is restraining." The answer is, PAUL TOLD HIS READERS - but did it in a way that takes some study. As Peter told us, some of Paul's letters are hard to understand. A beginning reader would not get this. Someone who just reads without study would not get it.

Therefore, I disagree with your take on this passage. I don't believe you have Paul's intended meaning. Take what Peter said to heart: some of Paul's letters are difficult.
The "restrainer" is the Holy Spirit working in/through born-again Christians.

For as long as the Holy Spirit works in/through born-again Christians - evil is "restrained" in the world.

As the 'apostasy' grows (larger-and-larger/more-and-more "falling away" from faith), evil is less-and-less restrained - because of the less-and-less ability of the Holy Spirit to work in the world of human affairs.

The restrainer is not "taken out of the way" by the removal of all born-again Christians from the earth; rather, it is the 'apostasy' - the "falling away" from the faith - that enables evil to "fill the earth" and the 'Wicked' to be revealed.

And, you can see the apostasy happening right now "before your eyes"...
 
Last edited:
Mar 4, 2020
8,614
3,691
113
I personally agree the 6th seal is the beginning of God's wrath and it happens after the great tribulation.

You are right: I will disagree. You have not studied these cosmic signs to note that they are different and happen over 7 years apart and that they are for two different purposes. I have a feeling you will disagree, at first, but stick with me here and hear me out.

The Rev. 6 - 6th seal - sign is speaking of SEEN evidence: a sun turning black - speaking or a total eclipse of the sun - and a moon appearing blood red - speaking of a total eclipse of the moon. Please take note: the ONLY way someone then would know the sun appeared black as sackcloth would be for them to SEE the sun appearing black. The only way one would know the moon appeared blood red would be that they SAW the moon as red.

On the other hand, the Matthew 24 sign is different. It is UNSEEN. The sun and moon will be invisible as will the stars be also: it is speaking of TOTAL DARKNESS.

The Greek word behind “darkened” is “skotizo.” Strong’s gives us this definition:

“I. to cover with darkness, to darken
II. to be covered with darkness, be darkened
....A. of heavenly bodies as deprived of light” (Strong’s Concordance)


Think about this: “to cover with darkness.” Or “of heavenly bodies as deprived of light.’ Since this verse is certainly speaking of heavenly bodies, then “deprived of light” is our best definition. If the sun and moon are deprived of light, this means they are invisible.

Then when Jesus spoke of His appearing as lightning across the sky, that too hints strongly of darkness. Added to that the fact that one of the vials with plagues speaks of total darkness.

Finally, the very fact that Jesus coming "after the trib" of those days parallels Rev. 19, but the 6th seal sign is in chapter 6, I find it silly to imagine these are speaking of the same signs. There is just too much evidence that then are different signs. Next, what is the PURPOSE of each sign?

The 6th seal sign is for the start of the DAY. The "after the trib" sign is the sign of His coming. Again, to imagine these are the same sign is silly to me: just too much evidence to the contrary.

I think the Isaiah sign aligns with the Matthew 24 sign, while the Joel 2 sign aligns with the Rev, 6 sign as BEFORE the Day of the Lord.
That's not possible. The scriptures speak for itself and they signs line up with the 6th seal. I think you just don't want to see it.
 

GaryA

Truth, Honesty, Love, Courage
Aug 10, 2019
9,883
4,346
113
mywebsite.us
Verse 1: somewhere in this passage Paul MUST show the gathering - the rapture. It is his theme.
This is not correct. Verse 1 "sets the stage" for the topic of discussion. It does not mandate anything. It is fulfilled/validated by verse 2.
 

GaryA

Truth, Honesty, Love, Courage
Aug 10, 2019
9,883
4,346
113
mywebsite.us
The "restrainer" is the Holy Spirit working in/through born-again Christians.

For as long as the Holy Spirit works in/through born-again Christians - evil is "restrained" in the world.

As the 'apostasy' grows (larger-and-larger/more-and-more "falling away" from faith), evil is less-and-less restrained - because of the less-and-less ability of the Holy Spirit to work in the world of human affairs.

The restrainer is not "taken out of the way" by the removal of all born-again Christians from the earth; rather, it is the 'apostasy' - the "falling away" from the faith - that enables evil to "fill the earth" and the 'Wicked' to be revealed.

And, you can see the apostasy happening right now "before your eyes"...
Also - the "negative" effect of the apostasy is intensified by Christians being killed...
 

lamad

Well-known member
Apr 14, 2021
1,293
107
63
This is not correct. Verse 1 "sets the stage" for the topic of discussion. It does not mandate anything. It is fulfilled/validated by verse 2.
It would be very strange to set the theme of a passage and then never cover the theme. I think it imperative that Paul cover the theme since he said that was what he was going to discuss: "concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to Him..."

Wouldn't it be strange, after writing those words, that Paul never got around to talking about the coming and the gathering?
 

lamad

Well-known member
Apr 14, 2021
1,293
107
63
That's not possible. The scriptures speak for itself and they signs line up with the 6th seal. I think you just don't want to see it.
i spent most of one post explaining the differences. Perhaps you have not yet read it, or perhaps you read it with preconceived glasses. Can the sun and moon as INVISIBLE be the same sign as the sun appearing black and the moon appearing red (total eclipses)? No, they cannot be the same sign.

Anyway, all one has to do is read and discover that all the trumpet judgments and vials are BETWEEN these two signs.

You think a total eclipse of the sun or moon is impossible?
 
Mar 4, 2020
8,614
3,691
113
You think a total eclipse of the sun or moon is impossible?
That's possible, but I am not singling that out as impossible. Your overall thesis is impossible to make the great tribulation God's wrath or to make the day of the Lord anything other than post-trib.

Isaiah 13, Matthew 24, and Revelation 6 prove the DOTL is after the great tribulation and the rapture is either immediately before or occurs simultaneously with the beginning of the DOTL. Either way, the church won't be present for God's wrath since we are not appointed to any of God's wrath.
 

lamad

Well-known member
Apr 14, 2021
1,293
107
63
The "restrainer" is the Holy Spirit working in/through born-again Christians.

For as long as the Holy Spirit works in/through born-again Christians - evil is "restrained" in the world.

As the 'apostasy' grows (larger-and-larger/more-and-more "falling away" from faith), evil is less-and-less restrained - because of the less-and-less ability of the Holy Spirit to work in the world of human affairs.

The restrainer is not "taken out of the way" by the removal of all born-again Christians from the earth; rather, it is the 'apostasy' - the "falling away" from the faith - that enables evil to "fill the earth" and the 'Wicked' to be revealed.

And, you can see the apostasy happening right now "before your eyes"...
Agree: the restraining power is the Holy Spirit, working in and through believers.
Apostasy: sorry, but since the beginning of the church, the church has grown. It is STILL growing and will continue to grow. When one falls away, TWO replace the one. What you wrote makes sense (your argument is sound) except Paul puts the departing (rapture) at the same time frame as this falling away should take place. Also the apostasy is according to Paul to be something everyone would recognize as "Aha! This is what Paul was saying." How would anyone know if enough had "fallen away" to be what Paul wrote? Perhaps when one saw the man of sin revealed, then remembered that there had been a falling away....

No, you are mistaken: even today the church is GROWING worldwide, not shrinking. There may well be an apostasy here in the US, but in China the church is growing fast in spite of persecution. Therefore I think Paul was using "apostasia" as a significant departing as in the rapture.

To be sure, when the rapture happens, the Holy Spirit will have few people left on earth through whom He can work. Also, IF there was enough people (in the 90 percentile perhaps) who would fall away (quit going to church or quit believing?) perhaps then the man of sin could be revealed. However, I think the KJV has a good interpretation in the "taken out of the way" as in an outside force. A falling away hardly fits.
 

lamad

Well-known member
Apr 14, 2021
1,293
107
63
That's possible, but I am not singling that out as impossible. Your overall thesis is impossible to make the great tribulation God's wrath or to make the day of the Lord anything other than post-trib.

Isaiah 13, Matthew 24, and Revelation 6 prove the DOTL is after the great tribulation and the rapture is either immediately before or occurs simultaneously with the beginning of the DOTL. Either way, the church won't be present for God's wrath since we are not appointed to any of God's wrath.
My friend, I did not do so, John did. It was JOHN in Revelation that shows us the start of God's wrath as in the start of the DAY of His wrath, before he starts the 70th week. That causes the entire 70th week to be inside God's wrath. That means every trumpet judgment comes with His wrath. That means every plague comes with His wrath. John backs this up by showing us each plague has a vial filled with His wrath.

Man tries to separate God's wrath from Satan's wrath through human reasoning, but it won't work: John is very clear in Revelation that while Satan's wrath is at its peak in the murdering of saints, God will pour out the vials of His wrath to shorten those says of GT. In other words, Revelation shows us that God's wrath and Satan's wrath are simultaneous.

Just to set the record straight, "postrib" in Revelation would be after the 7th vial that ENDS the 70th week. I think you need more study!
 

lamad

Well-known member
Apr 14, 2021
1,293
107
63
You said: "Sorry to disappoint you, but I do find it silly to equate two things are are not in any way similar. Only a beginning bible student would equate the signs at the 6th seal with the signs after the trib of those days. Why? Simple: they are two different signs that will happen over 7 years apart and they are signs for two different events. "

This gave me a very good laugh - thanks for the free laughter
You are very welcome!
 
Mar 4, 2020
8,614
3,691
113
My friend, I did not do so, John did. It was JOHN in Revelation that shows us the start of God's wrath as in the start of the DAY of His wrath, before he starts the 70th week. That causes the entire 70th week to be inside God's wrath. That means every trumpet judgment comes with His wrath. That means every plague comes with His wrath. John backs this up by showing us each plague has a vial filled with His wrath.

Man tries to separate God's wrath from Satan's wrath through human reasoning, but it won't work: John is very clear in Revelation that while Satan's wrath is at its peak in the murdering of saints, God will pour out the vials of His wrath to shorten those says of GT. In other words, Revelation shows us that God's wrath and Satan's wrath are simultaneous.

Just to set the record straight, "postrib" in Revelation would be after the 7th vial that ENDS the 70th week. I think you need more study!
What if your interpretation of Daniel's 70th week is wrong? Is that possible?
 
Mar 4, 2020
8,614
3,691
113
My friend, I did not do so, John did. It was JOHN in Revelation that shows us the start of God's wrath as in the start of the DAY of His wrath, before he starts the 70th week. That causes the entire 70th week to be inside God's wrath. That means every trumpet judgment comes with His wrath. That means every plague comes with His wrath. John backs this up by showing us each plague has a vial filled with His wrath.

Man tries to separate God's wrath from Satan's wrath through human reasoning, but it won't work: John is very clear in Revelation that while Satan's wrath is at its peak in the murdering of saints, God will pour out the vials of His wrath to shorten those says of GT. In other words, Revelation shows us that God's wrath and Satan's wrath are simultaneous.

Just to set the record straight, "postrib" in Revelation would be after the 7th vial that ENDS the 70th week. I think you need more study!
Since you seem impervious to all reasoning, let me go ahead and put the cornerstone of your pre-trib theology to rest with this exegesis of the scriptures. After this, you're on your own with your interpretation as far as I am concerned.

Not one passage in the Bible describes a 7 year great tribulation (GT). Every description of the GT in the Bible teaches that it lasts for three and a half years.

See Dan. 7:25, 12:1-7, Rev. 11:3-12, 12:6, 12:7-12, 12:13-17, and 13:5-7.

The common misunderstanding about a 7 year GT comes from Dan. 9:27, which talks about a covenant that will be confirmed for seven years. This verse teaches that the abomination of desolation (AOD) will occur halfway through the 7 year period. Jesus said that that the AOD would mark the beginning of the GT (Matt. 24:15-21). From these verses we know that the GT only lasts for three and a half years.

Matt. 24:15,21
15When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand
21For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

In other words, your math is off. Your interpretation of a pre-trib rapture and a 7 year GT is impossible.
 
Last edited:
Aug 2, 2021
7,317
2,048
113
Since you seem impervious to all reasoning, let me go ahead and put the cornerstone of your pre-trib theology to rest with this exegesis of the scriptures. After this, you're on your own with your interpretation as far as I am concerned.

Not one passage in the Bible describes a 7 year great tribulation (GT). Every description of the GT in the Bible teaches that it lasts for three and a half years.

See Dan. 7:25, 12:1-7, Rev. 11:3-12, 12:6, 12:7-12, 12:13-17, and 13:5-7.

The common misunderstanding about a 7 year GT comes from Dan. 9:27, which talks about a covenant that will be confirmed for seven years. This verse teaches that the abomination of desolation (AOD) will occur halfway through the 7 year period. Jesus said that that the AOD would mark the beginning of the GT (Matt. 24:15-21). From these verses we know that the GT only lasts for three and a half years.

Matt. 24:15,21
15When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand
21For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

In other words, your math is off. Your interpretation of a pre-trib rapture and a 7 year GT is impossible.

The LORD's Ministry was for 3.5 Years - 'coincidence' = NOPE = Right on TARGET
 
Aug 2, 2021
7,317
2,048
113
I never noticed that until you mentioned it. That's an interesting observation and I think it explains a lot.
Dear Brother, there is much i hold back on here. It is only for those who desire to love the Lord in Spirit and Truth.

I am not asking that You take them out of the world, but that You keep them from the evil one.c 16They are not of the world, just as I am not of the world.
17Sanctify them by the truth; Your word is truth.
18As You sent Me into the world, I have also sent them into the world.
19For them I sanctify Myself, so that they too may be sanctified by the truth.
 

lamad

Well-known member
Apr 14, 2021
1,293
107
63
What if your interpretation of Daniel's 70th week is wrong? Is that possible?
The very first revelation from God about the book of revelation came while I was reading Daniel 9:27. When my eyes and my mind got to the word "midst" God suddenly spoke:

"You could find that exact midpoint clearly marked in the book of Revelation."

I was instantly "in the Spirit" and could not answer. But my spirit man asked: "How would I find that?" He answered my question.

"Every time I mentioned an event that would begin at the midpoint and go to the end of the week, I always included the 3 1/2 year period of time. When you find the mentions of the 3 1/2 years, you will be very close to the exact midpoint. In fact, you could find the entire week 'clearly marked.' "

I searched diligently through chapters 11 to 13, where we find five mentions of events that start at the midpoint and countdown to the end of the week. Each mentions the 3 1/2 year period of time. I found that God uses 7's to mark the start of the week, the midpoint and the end: the week begin at the 7th seal, the midpoint is marked by the 7th trumpet, and the week ends at the 7th vial.

I don't think I missed finding what He sent me to find.
 

lamad

Well-known member
Apr 14, 2021
1,293
107
63
By the way, since Revelation shows us the entire week marked by 7's, and the last half of the week to the end of the week clearly marked as 3 1/2 years with 5 different countdowns, two given in days, two given in months and one given in years (times) one can easily extrapolate that if the last half is 3.5 years, and there is an exact midpoint, then the first half is 3.5 years.

The first half goes from the 7th seal to the 7th trumpet and will encompass the first 6 trumpet judgments.