How the Pre-Trib Rapture Became Popular in the Modern Church

[DavidTree]

Here is where you veered off from the truth:

The Timing of Paul's rapture is in accordance with the Prophets and the word's of Christ. You see, the rapture was a SECRET up until Paul told it. For rapture information you can only go to Paul who received the revelation of the rapture. No prophet ever spoke of the rapture. All the prophets knew as a resurrection at the end of time:

Dan. 12:1...at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Mary and Martha knew that there would be a resurrection day - but that would be of the Jews and Hebrews, as Daniel said, "some to everlasting life.)

If you wish to teach truth, picture the Gentile church of today as a parenthesis inserted into Jewish time, with only Paul receiving knowledge of those alive and in Christ caught up and changed. The truth is, you are looking in all the wrong places for information on Paul's rapture. No wonder we disagree.

You seem to be unknowing of the Scripture and who wrote them = the HOLY SPIRIT

For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty. For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount.

We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts: Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Spirit.

pre-trib is a cunningly devised fable = cannot be found in Scripture

 

[lamad]

This means only one of two possible things here:
A.) You are blind/confused to Matthew ch 24 where the LORD directly states He is Coming AFTER the Tribulation
Blind/confused to Matt ch24 , 2 Thessalonians 2:1-5 , 1 John 2:18-1 , Daniel ch7 , book of Job, James ch5 that states Tribulation, satan/man of sin/Antichrist comes
before His Coming
Blind/confused to Matt ch24 and Revelation that states His Coming/Resurrection/gathering us AFTER the Tribulation

OR

You are an emissary of satan to say "did God really say" and to twist His words for your desires.

Which one???

How many times must you be told something before you actually GET IT? A hundred? A thousand?
Let's try one more time.

EVERYONE KNOWS Christ is coming AFTER the trib.
EVERYONE KNOWS Christ is coming AFTER the trib.
EVERYONE KNOWS Christ is coming AFTER the trib.
EVERYONE KNOWS Christ is coming AFTER the trib.
EVERYONE KNOWS Christ is coming AFTER the trib.
EVERYONE KNOWS Christ is coming AFTER the trib.

Did you get that?
EVERYONE KNOWS Christ is coming AFTER the trib.

You are trying to make this coming after the trib PAUL'S RAPTURE.
Why don't you spend some effort trying to PROVE His coming after the trib is Paul's rapture coming?

Good luck with that: so far in maybe a million posts over many years in several forums NO ONE YET has given any scripture to prove His coming after the trib is Paul's rapture coming.

Do you know why it is so difficult to prove? Simple: because it IS NOT TRUTH.

I'll tell you what, we can agree to meet in heaven after you have been left behind and beheaded and you can then explain where I was mistaken.

I am going to pray to be found worthy to ESCAPE "all these things," which will be the entire 70th week.

Again I remind you, John saw the great crowd too large to number in chapter 7, NOT IN CHAPTER 19.

The truth is, I am neither blind or confused. You remind me of the famous Socrates' quote:
"the ills of the whole world are caused by those that THINK they know, when in fact, they don't.

You have made it abundantly clear that you THINK you know. We all know you don't.

 

[Absolutely]

Falling away from the truth is very serious. It is also serious that you refuse every Greek dictionary and concordance etc that affirms the word means a defection from the truth, Apostasy. See, you won't accept evidence of the truth not from scripture and not from Greek definition sources. That means you have closed your eyes and won't change your mind.

2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away (apostasia) first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

The word "falling away" is apostasia from where we get the words Apostate and Apostasy. Obviously it means a moral and spiritual religious "departure" not a physical departure.


Don't believe anything that says this event is the rapture. Here are 5 expert sources that prove the "departure" in 2 Thess 2:3 is the Apostasy:

Strong's definition G646

apostasia

ap-os-tas-ee'-ah

Feminine of the same as G647; defection from truth (properly the state), (“apostasy”) : - falling away, forsake.

Total KJV occurrences: 2


Thayer Definition:

G646 apostasia


1) a falling away, defection, apostasy

Part of Speech: noun feminine

A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: feminine of the same as G647

Citing in TDNT: 1:513, 88

Total KJV occurrences: 2





Abbott-Smith Manual Greek Lexicon of the New Testament

Apostasia

defection, apostasy, revolt; in late Gk. (MM, Exp., viii; Lft., Notes, 111; Cremer, 308) for cl. ?p?stas?? , freq. in sense of political revolt, in LXX (e.g. Joshua 22:22, 2 Chronicles 29:19, Jeremiah 2:19) and NT always of religious apostasy: Ac21:21, II Th 2:3.







Liddell and Scott:

A defection, revolt, v.l. in D.H.7.1, J.Vit.10, Plu.Galb.1; esp. in religious sense, rebellion against God, apostasy, LXX Jo.22.22, 2 Ep.Th.2.3 .





Winer's Grammar:



Apostasia, a falling away, defection, apostasy; in the Bible namely, from the true religion: Acts 21:21; 2 Thessalonians 2:3 ; ((Joshua 22:22; 2 Chronicles 29:19; 2 Chronicles 33:19); Jeremiah 2:19; Jeremiah 3629) 32 Complutensian; 1 Macc. 2:15). The earlier Greeks say Apostasis; see Lob. ad Phryn., p. 528; (Winer's Grammar, 24).

2 thes 2;3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.

7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed,

Do you realize that" revealed" is used three times in those verses? Revealed revealed revealed. You say it is"something added" then the ac is revealed

We have in the verses ;
Taken then revealed
Then
Taken and revealed
Then
Taken and revealed.

So in your position, you are saying "something is added"
Then the ac is revealed.

But the bible insists " something is removed"

Hmmmmmmmm

 

[lamad]

You seem to be unknowing of the Scripture and who wrote them = the HOLY SPIRIT

For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty. For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount.

We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts: Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Spirit.

pre-trib is a cunningly devised fable = cannot be found in Scripture

I have the Holy Spirit inside as the seal and guarantee of an eternity with God in heaven, and the Holy Spirit upon me as the anointing. That means I received the mighty baptism in the Holy Spirit with the evidence of praying in tongues. I suspect you disobeyed God and chose to skip the baptism in the Holy Spirit.

The Post-trib rapture is a cunningly devised fable - not found anywhere in scripture.
It tries to force two more comings into one, like trying to force a round peg into a square hole. WHAM! BANG!
It tries to force a coming on white horses with a coming without horses.
It tries to force a coming before wrath with a coming after wrath.
It tries to force a coming before the DAY with a coming while the DAY continues.
It can never, ever, explain how the church is going to get the its own marriage and supper.
It steals the sheep from the sheep and goat judgment.
It may well end up causing many to be left behind.
It can never be proven with a good exegesis of scripture.
It tries to force a coming FOR His Bride into a coming WITH His bride - making it a theory that is both coming and going.
It requires vast amounts of imagination for those that accept it.
It cannot see a difference in a coming to the air, and an coming with a touchdown.

 

[DavidTree]

How many times must you be told something before you actually GET IT? A hundred? A thousand?
Let's try one more time.

EVERYONE KNOWS Christ is coming AFTER the trib.
EVERYONE KNOWS Christ is coming AFTER the trib.
EVERYONE KNOWS Christ is coming AFTER the trib.
EVERYONE KNOWS Christ is coming AFTER the trib.
EVERYONE KNOWS Christ is coming AFTER the trib.
EVERYONE KNOWS Christ is coming AFTER the trib.

Did you get that?
EVERYONE KNOWS Christ is coming AFTER the trib.

You are trying to make this coming after the trib PAUL'S RAPTURE.
Why don't you spend some effort trying to PROVE His coming after the trib is Paul's rapture coming?

Good luck with that: so far in maybe a million posts over many years in several forums NO ONE YET has given any scripture to prove His coming after the trib is Paul's rapture coming.

Do you know why it is so difficult to prove? Simple: because it IS NOT TRUTH.

I'll tell you what, we can agree to meet in heaven after you have been left behind and beheaded and you can then explain where I was mistaken.

I am going to pray to be found worthy to ESCAPE "all these things," which will be the entire 70th week.

Again I remind you, John saw the great crowd too large to number in chapter 7, NOT IN CHAPTER 19.

The truth is, I am neither blind or confused. You remind me of the famous Socrates' quote:
"the ills of the whole world are caused by those that THINK they know, when in fact, they don't.

You have made it abundantly clear that you THINK you know. We all know you don't.

We, who accept God's words, do not add to them or take away - we have peace in what God has told us.

We have no need to prove what God has spoken and establish for His Coming.

i find it forthright, that those who cling to the idol of pre-trib cannot find any such words coming from the Mouth of God.

When the Lord said: "It is written man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the Mouth of God."

Do you know who HE said that to???

 

[lamad]

You seem to be unknowing of the Scripture and who wrote them = the HOLY SPIRIT

For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty. For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount.

We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts: Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Spirit.

pre-trib is a cunningly devised fable = cannot be found in Scripture

Here I was HOPING you would find a scripture from prophecy OF words of Jesus showing the timing of Paul's rapture as you stated.

The truth is, there is no such verses so you couldn't show even one. Did you say, "sorry, I missed it?" No.

 

[Nehemiah6]

It requires vast amounts of imagination for those that accept it.

Another way of saying it is pure fantasy and total absurdity. Let them alone. They be blind leaders of the blind,

 

[DavidTree]

2 thes 2;3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.

7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed,

Do you realize that" revealed" is used three times in those verses? Revealed revealed revealed. You say it is"something added" then the ac is revealed

We have in the verses ;
Taken then revealed
Then
Taken and revealed
Then
Taken and revealed.

So in your position, you are saying "something is added"
Then the ac is revealed.

But the bible insists " something is removed"

Hmmmmmmmm

The first Group to go are those who depart from the faith/truth

Now the Spirit expressly states that in later times some will depart from the faith to follow deceitful spirits and the teachings of demons, 1 Timothy 4:1

Children, it is the last hour; and just as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, so now many antichrists have appeared. This is how we know it is the last hour. They went out from us, but they did not belong to us.
For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us.
But their departure made it clear that none of them belonged to us.
1 John 2:18-19

JESUS says: At that time many will fall away and will betray and hate one another, - Matt 24:10

Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to Him, we ask you, brothers, not to be easily disconcerted or alarmed by any spirit or message or letter seeming to be from us, alleging that the Day of the Lord has already come. Let no one deceive you in any way,
for it will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness—the son of destruction—is revealed.
2 Thess 2

 

[DavidTree]

Here I was HOPING you would find a scripture from prophecy OF words of Jesus showing the timing of Paul's rapture as you stated.

The truth is, there is no such verses so you couldn't show even one. Did you say, "sorry, I missed it?" No.

Matthew ch24

Paul never owned a 'rapture' - he could not afford it - his blood was tainted with sin.

i know Someone who has the power to lay His Life down and take it UP again - HE said no man takes His Life from Him.

Now this GUY, HE is the Real Deal and not only does HE own the Resurrection, but HE has a rapture in His pocket as well.

the rapture is pocket change compared to the Resurrection

Which, since you keep missing it - takes place FIRST and is found in Revelation chapters 19 & 20.

 

[lamad]

Falling away from the truth is very serious. It is also serious that you refuse every Greek dictionary and concordance etc that affirms the word means a defection from the truth, Apostasy. See, you won't accept evidence of the truth not from scripture and not from Greek definition sources. That means you have closed your eyes and won't change your mind.

2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away (apostasia) first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

The word "falling away" is apostasia from where we get the words Apostate and Apostasy. Obviously it means a moral and spiritual religious "departure" not a physical departure.


Don't believe anything that says this event is the rapture. Here are 5 expert sources that prove the "departure" in 2 Thess 2:3 is the Apostasy:

Strong's definition G646

apostasia

ap-os-tas-ee'-ah

Feminine of the same as G647; defection from truth (properly the state), (“apostasy”) : - falling away, forsake.

Total KJV occurrences: 2


Thayer Definition:

G646 apostasia


1) a falling away, defection, apostasy

Part of Speech: noun feminine

A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: feminine of the same as G647

Citing in TDNT: 1:513, 88

Total KJV occurrences: 2





Abbott-Smith Manual Greek Lexicon of the New Testament

Apostasia

defection, apostasy, revolt; in late Gk. (MM, Exp., viii; Lft., Notes, 111; Cremer, 308) for cl. ?p?stas?? , freq. in sense of political revolt, in LXX (e.g. Joshua 22:22, 2 Chronicles 29:19, Jeremiah 2:19) and NT always of religious apostasy: Ac21:21, II Th 2:3.







Liddell and Scott:

A defection, revolt, v.l. in D.H.7.1, J.Vit.10, Plu.Galb.1; esp. in religious sense, rebellion against God, apostasy, LXX Jo.22.22, 2 Ep.Th.2.3 .





Winer's Grammar:



Apostasia, a falling away, defection, apostasy; in the Bible namely, from the true religion: Acts 21:21; 2 Thessalonians 2:3 ; ((Joshua 22:22; 2 Chronicles 29:19; 2 Chronicles 33:19); Jeremiah 2:19; Jeremiah 3629) 32 Complutensian; 1 Macc. 2:15). The earlier Greeks say Apostasis; see Lob. ad Phryn., p. 528; (Winer's Grammar, 24).

I think one thing is certain: you and will probably never agree on this passage.

A compound word should always maintain the meaning of each word such as mailbox. It is a box meant for mail. Such as bedroom. It is a room with a bed. You want to remove the separate meaning and make this word mean something different. There IS AGREEMENT that it can mean a departure or a departing. A defection is a departing. An apostasy is a departing.
Paul did not add "from Moses," or "from Christ." So the truth is, all we have is a departing. However, it is THE departing - one the 2 Thes. church would already know about. For example, one explained fully in Paul's first letter. Did Paul take about some falling away or some defecting in his first letter? No. Did Paul talk about a significant departing in his first letter? Absolutely - one that everyone would recognize.

Two words put together as a compound word: APO and Stasia

For apo:

1. of separation… If a married couple divorce, they separate. If the rapture takes place, the church will be separated.
1A. of local separation,
1B. of separation of a part from the whole The rapture will certainly take a part from the whole population.

1Bi. where of a whole some part is taken Of the whole population, some part will be taken in the rapture.
1C. of any kind of separation of one thing from another… a falling away would fit this one
1D. of a state of separation, that is of distance At the rapture, the church is taken to the sky - so distance fits.
1Di. physical, of distance of place the rapture will be a physical removal to a distant place.

See how closely that first word fits the rapture? I think it fits a rapture better than it does a falling away.
When we all the other word, stasia, it means a standing as in stationary - not moving. It makes perfect sense that Paul would use apostasia to mean the rapture: while one group is removed from the whole, the rest of the whole is left standing.

The bigger question is, which meaning first verses 7-8 best? Which meaning fits a restraining force "taken out of the way" best?
I chose a departing (of the church) for Paul's intended meaning.

We can ASK Paul when we arrive where he is. Deal?

 

[lamad]

Matthew ch24

Paul never owned a 'rapture' - he could not afford it - his blood was tainted with sin.

i know Someone who has the power to lay His Life down and take it UP again - HE said no man takes His Life from Him.

Now this GUY, HE is the Real Deal and not only does HE own the Resurrection, but HE has a rapture in His pocket as well.

the rapture is pocket change compared to the Resurrection

Which, since you keep missing it - takes place FIRST and is found in Revelation chapters 19 & 20.

No, Paul's sin was washed away. Did you forget the power of Christ's blood? NONE Of us would make it without His shed blood.

Yes, I will freely admit that Jesus will come from heaven TO THE AIR, NOT on a white horse, and NOT touching down. He will be coming FOR HIS BRIDE, not for Armageddon. And yes, He will resurrect the dead in Christ first.

Oh, and it was Paul that wrote this! But, you are close: It was without a doubt JESUS that revealed it to Paul.

 

[DavidTree]

No, Paul's sin was washed away. Did you forget the power of Christ's blood? NONE Of us would make it without His shed blood.

Yes, I will freely admit that Jesus will come from heaven TO THE AIR, NOT on a white horse, and NOT touching down. He will be coming FOR HIS BRIDE, not for Armageddon. And yes, He will resurrect the dead in Christ first.

Oh, and it was Paul that wrote this! But, you are close: It was without a doubt JESUS that revealed it to Paul.

Paul only wrote what the Holy Spirit revealed for him to write - Paul owned nothing as all belongs to Christ.

Whenever you say 'Paul's rapture' you err, as you constantly do with other Scripture as well.

 

[DavidTree]

I have the Holy Spirit inside as the seal and guarantee of an eternity with God in heaven, and the Holy Spirit upon me as the anointing. That means I received the mighty baptism in the Holy Spirit with the evidence of praying in tongues. I suspect you disobeyed God and chose to skip the baptism in the Holy Spirit.

The Post-trib rapture is a cunningly devised fable - not found anywhere in scripture.
It tries to force two more comings into one, like trying to force a round peg into a square hole. WHAM! BANG!
It tries to force a coming on white horses with a coming without horses.
It tries to force a coming before wrath with a coming after wrath.
It tries to force a coming before the DAY with a coming while the DAY continues.
It can never, ever, explain how the church is going to get the its own marriage and supper.
It steals the sheep from the sheep and goat judgment.
It may well end up causing many to be left behind.
It can never be proven with a good exegesis of scripture.
It tries to force a coming FOR His Bride into a coming WITH His bride - making it a theory that is both coming and going.
It requires vast amounts of imagination for those that accept it.
It cannot see a difference in a coming to the air, and an coming with a touchdown.

You said - "It tries to force two more comings into one,"

There is only one Second Coming of Christ - anyone who says there are multiple is, again, adding to God's words and in sin.

"Just as man is appointed to die once, and after that to face judgment, so also Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many; and He will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who eagerly await Him." - Hebrews 9:27-28

 

[walknlight]

Hi!

No, Paul's sin was washed away. Did you forget the power of Christ's blood? NONE Of us would make it without His shed blood.

Yes, I will freely admit that Jesus will come from heaven TO THE AIR, NOT on a white horse, and NOT touching down. He will be coming FOR HIS BRIDE, not for Armageddon. And yes, He will resurrect the dead in Christ first.

Oh, and it was Paul that wrote this! But, you are close: It was without a doubt JESUS that revealed it to Paul.

I agree...
Paul is speaking of another event.......Why would he classify this as a "mystery"?
Then one must consider the mysteries in scripture revealed through Paul by Holy Spirit
Im convinced. He was expecting our Lord in his (Paul) day.

Just as we should be "watching and praying".....

God Bless!

 

[ewq1938]

A compound word should always maintain the meaning of each word such as mailbox.

It's obvious you will do anything to avoid what the Greek word means. Your whole post is blatant nonsense and ignorant of the Greek language.

Apostasia is Apostasy and if you want to do that, you will. You are well on the Apostasia road. When you arrive there, you won't be able to blame those who warned you.

 

[GaryA]

You remind me of the famous Socrates' quote:
"the ills of the whole world are caused by those that THINK they know, when in fact, they don't.

You know --- this could equally be said to apply to 'pre-trib' folks, too...

 

[ewq1938]

You know --- this could equally be said to apply to 'pre-trib' folks, too...

It can only apply to pre-trib. Post-trib has the backing of scripture and does not claim concordances "fib" about Greek definitions.

 

[lamad]

It can only apply to pre-trib. Post-trib has the backing of scripture and does not claim concordances "fib" about Greek definitions.

I am still waiting for a solid verse that truly proves a posttrib rapture. It seems you have given it your best shot.

 

[lamad]

You know --- this could equally be said to apply to 'pre-trib' folks, too...

It could be, except God is pretrib.

 

[lamad]

It's obvious you will do anything to avoid what the Greek word means. Your whole post is blatant nonsense and ignorant of the Greek language.

Apostasia is Apostasy and if you want to do that, you will. You are well on the Apostasia road. When you arrive there, you won't be able to blame those who warned you.

Since you say my post is nonsense, why have you not explained:
Why Paul wrote, "and now you know...?
How the man of sin is revealed in 3b in light of 6-8?
Why the people were so upset?
Why the parallels?