How the Pre-Trib Rapture Became Popular in the Modern Church

[iamsoandso]

If I'm grasping the issue you are getting at (I could be mistaken on your intentions), this pertains to the way in which scholars USE the term "imminence" (concerning "rapture-timing")...

...which a lot of ppl do not "get" the way in which many scholars USE this term... They do not use it in the sense of "the rapture can happen AT ANY TIME," but rather, that ALL [biblically-defined] "SIGNS" take place FOLLOWING "our Rapture" [i.e. within the 7-yr Tribulation Period] (nothing one can look at around us that POINTS TO "our Rapture" event/date)... ALL of the "SIGNS" FOLLOW our Rapture, and are what will "point toward" and LEAD UP TO His Second Coming to the earth (at the Rev19 point in the chronology), in which, "EVERY EYE" shall see Him (i.e. "the MANIFESTATION of His presence / parousia" 2Th2:8b, in contrast to what 2Th2:1 is speaking of ["OUR episynagoges UNTO HIM" (which will be "IN THE AIR"... "the MEETING [NOUN] of the Lord IN THE AIR]--and us ONLY ['the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY'], at that point--"our Rapture" point in time].)



So, ARE YOU addressing the issue of "imminence" (as it pertains to "our Rapture")?? Or am I completely missing the essense of your posts here?

No I'm not mentioning any of this,,,,All I'm asking is if they didn't have any idea there even was an "second coming" how could they be asking him about it in Matthew 24:3's "sign of thy coming". They weren't meaning his second coming if they didn't know it was going to take place at that time(Olivet discourse).

 

[GaryA]

In Matthew 24 and 25, Jesus is only speaking to Israel! He is telling them what will befall Israel.

That is not connected to the saints we are discussing!

Guess again...

 

[walknlight]

Hi!

Looks like this needs to go to Absolutely? --confused.

Not at all...
You said "there is NO Second Chances "

and I quoted Absolutely
"How dare God give us a second chance "

God bless!

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

No I'm not mentioning any of this,,,,All I'm asking is if they didn't have any idea there even was an "second coming" how could they be asking him about it in Matthew 24:3's "sign of thy coming". They weren't meaning his second coming if they didn't know it was going to take place at that time(Olivet discourse).

Well, first off (and this was covered in earlier posts in this thread--I think it was this thread), there is no scripture with the words "SECOND COMING" (...so... why would those words, expressed that way [the label man puts on things to aid in our discussion], matter in this issue? It seems that all that should matter is what "coming" meant to them [in any given CONTEXT], right?)

But when Jesus' response included the wording of (Matt24:30) "coming in/upon THE CLOUDS OF HEAVEN with power and great glory," do you think they perceived Him to be meaning "coming from Motley, Minnesota"?? (i.e. "coming" from somewhere upon the earth--since they hadn't realized He'd be IN HEAVEN by that point)?? I think not.



[in John 13:33,36 Jesus had already said to them, "where I am going ye cannot come" (just as He'd said "to the Jews" in 8:21) ... verse 36 adds (specifically to Peter) "ye cannot follow Me NOW"; sure it took some time for them to grasp what He meant... I'm just not seeing how this impacts what it is my original point had been As I see it, not at all... ]

 

[oyster67]

Christ is ruling and reigning now--1000 years is ALWAYS and without exception a symbolic number in scripture--look it up. In Revelation it is most definitely figurative and signifies a long length of time--Satan is also bound symbolically for 1000 years-he was bound at the cross--does he still have influence over mankind--yes he does, but he has no power over death because Christ died for all--people need only to repent and believe and receive eternal life--Satan is bound in that he is powerless to do anything about that.

To not believe that Christ defeated sin and death at the cross and is reigning now on earth thru believers and in heaven is to deny that He is both Christ and King.

Revelation
20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and [I saw] the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received [his] mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This [is] the first resurrection.
20:6 Blessed and holy [is] he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Hi!

Not at all...
You said "there is NO Second Chances "

and I quoted Absolutely
"How dare God give us a second chance "

Let the readers note that "Abs" believes in the "partial rapture theory" (i.e. that not ALL members of the "Church WHICH IS HIS BODY"--the "ONE BODY"--will be raptured... i.e. that some believers will be left behind... which I do not see as a biblical viewpoint). Paul told the Corinthians, "[and] we shall ALL be changed in a moment..." (the purpose of this "change" is for "our Rapture" event, the "SNATCH")




[but, besides this issue, there will indeed be many folks who will come to faith FOLLOWING "our Rapture," and this is understood by means of ascertaining the "chronology" issues among other things...]

 

[Laura798]

Christ is ruling and reigning now--1000 years is ALWAYS and without exception a symbolic number in scripture--look it up. In Revelation it is most definitely figurative and signifies a long length of time--Satan is also bound symbolically for 1000 years-he was bound at the cross--does he still have influence over mankind--yes he does, but he has no power over death because Christ died for all--people need only to repent and believe and receive eternal life--Satan is bound in that he is powerless to do anything about that.

To not believe that Christ defeated sin and death at the cross and is reigning now on earth thru believers and in heaven is to deny that He is both Christ and King.

 

[Laura798]

Revelation
20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and [I saw] the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received [his] mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This [is] the first resurrection.
20:6 Blessed and holy [is] he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Oyster you do know this is a VISION John sees and that it is full of symbols, right? He's not seeing the real thing-he's seeing representations of things.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

^^ For the readers,

the word "King" (re: Jesus) is used only TWO TIMES in all of the epistles, and in both of those passages it is speaking of this in the "future" tense (...ponder this).



[see also the "future tense" of Rev19:15b "and He SHALL rule them with a rod of iron..." (from the point in time of His Second Coming to the earth)]

 

[oyster67]

Revelation
20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and [I saw] the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received [his] mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This [is] the first resurrection.
20:6 Blessed and holy [is] he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

That, rather obviously, happens after the Trib.

 

[oyster67]

Oyster you do know this is a VISION John sees

Yes, we call it prophecy. Revelation is not a fantasy novel.

 

[oyster67]

He's not seeing the real thing

Actually, He is. God is revealing the future to John. Prophecy is not a collection of fables and fairy tales.

 

[Laura798]

Yes, we call it prophecy. Revelation is not a fantasy novel.

No one is saying it is a fantasy novel. My point is simply that the vision John sees are representations--and we need to be careful how we interpret them and not take the representations themselves literally.

 

[ewq1938]

No one is saying it is a fantasy novel. My point is simply that the vision John sees are representations--and we need to be careful how we interpret them and not take the representations themselves literally.

Not always. We have to remember that while John was shown plain images of things happening, he also was shown very artistic and exaggerated things like a massive snake with multiple heads. That's the metaphoric vision rather than a plain vision. It's like a cartoonist depicting the Nazi's attacking Poland using a drawing of a large wolf with big fangs jumping on Poland portrayed by a small prey animal rather than a drawing of tanks and planes and men on the ground shooting and taking over Poland as it happened in real life. Sometimes John saw real life when he saw crowds of people or angels or the elders worshiping God. Other times he saw artist portrayals of fantastic, imaginary creatures with multiple heads that rose out of the water.

 

[Laura798]

Actually, He is. God is revealing the future to John. Prophecy is not a collection of fables and fairy tales.

How odd to say that--fables and fairy tales are not visions from God--all Christians know prophetic visions are a truth that God reveals which is veiled by symbols and representations--your getting a bit persnickety Oyster and it doesn't become you.

 

[Absolutely]

Consider:

But take heed to yourselves: for they shall deliver you up to councils; and in the synagogues ye shall be beaten: and ye shall be brought before rulers and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them. And the gospel must first be published among all nations. But when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost. Now the brother shall betray the brother to death, and the father the son; and children shall rise up against their parents, and shall cause them to be put to death. And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

- Mark 13:9-13 (KJV)

How can you ENDURE TO THE END if you've already been killed? No, that doesn’t make sense, @Absolutely

The end of their lives. They died. (endured to the end)
If we omit the verses about the AC and what he does ( kills every beliver) then we can let our imagination tell us there will be millions of believers being chased from cave to cave by the AC.
It says all take the mark.
Those refusing die.

If salvation only comes from living through the trib (which postribs are saying) then all the dead in christ need to just stay in their graves.

 

[Absolutely]

Yes, at beginning of Trib...

2 Thessalonians
2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work:...

then at mid Trib...

...only he who now letteth [will let], until he be taken out of the way.
2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed,...

and then at end of end of Trib...

...whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

The white horse rider kicks off the trib.
He arrives and he conquers Nations. He has a crown so he is a ruler and he has a bow so he is a man of war he kills people and breaks things that's what armies do. He rides a white horse, in other words, he is a imitation of Messiah.
That's actually what the world is looking for ....a strong decisive leader.
What 2nd Thessalonians 2 says ,is that there's going to be something removed before something is revealed.
It says in 2nd Thessalonians 2 ,in the first maybe 6 versus, that, the AC is revealed 3 times. In other words the church will see who he is what is and be able to recognize it.
For hundreds of years we have known who he is because the Bible says exactly who he is. He is a man and his number is 666. I believe that mystery will be solved right before the rapture.

I believe 2nd Thessalonians 2, will be exactly what it says, that the AC will be revealed.

What you are seeing mid trib is the AC taking over judaism. Now seated as "god"

The Bible says that the Jews are taken out of the way most likely to Petra and that Satan follows them and tries to drown them in a flood, but is stopped and they safely arrived to a protected area. And that Dynamic is yet another "saved through water" dynamic that God likes to use. But that is yet another study.
Then ,in Revelation 14 which is about mid-trib, we see that you wish first fruits in heaven, followed by the main body of Jews taken to heaven, by Jesus in the sky sitting on a cloud with a sickle in his hand.

That particular rapture it's not the Rapture of the church, none the less it is a gathering, are you could call it a rapture, but it's not 1st Thessalonians 4.

 

[Absolutely]

You don't know what you are talking about. What is found in Revelation 14 is not before the Great Tribulation. Mt Sion is also not in heaven, it's outside of Jerusalem.

there is also a Mount Zion heaven.

It says they are before the throne and have been redeemed from the earth.
(There is also a temple in heaven as well as on Earth.)

And yes, rev 14 is right before the wrath....or " mid trib"

 

[Absolutely]

The Church, and I'm speaking of the true believers, not everyone who claims to be Christian is a true believer, they will not be here for the tribulation. But the ones who said they believed in the Lord and actually didn't, they will be here along with the straight out Christ rejecters.

But now those who are left will have to lay down their lives for Christ or be doomed to eternal hell. There will be many who will be martyrs for Christ at that time. The post-tribs believe this is the Church, they are sadly mistaken. The Church is never even mentioned in all of the events of the tribulation, that should tell you something.

Well sotra.
I agree somewhat....but....
There are several different types of True Believers. There are babes in Christ ,of course they are babies or new converts, and then we see mature Saints, and in those mature Saints we see different levels , or anointings that they are walking in. Paul describes one other class of believers, and they are called carnal. I think it's in 1st Corinthians we see the term"saved as Through Fire", they are saved but their works are burned up.

I said all that to say that in Matthew 25 we see and virgins which represents 10 Christian. 10 Born Again Christians .
Blood Washed and redeemed. However, they are carnal and run out of oil.

These represent half the church left behind.
And yes they die refusing the mark

 

[Absolutely]

Christ is ruling and reigning now--1000 years is ALWAYS and without exception a symbolic number in scripture--look it up. In Revelation it is most definitely figurative and signifies a long length of time--Satan is also bound symbolically for 1000 years-he was bound at the cross--does he still have influence over mankind--yes he does, but he has no power over death because Christ died for all--people need only to repent and believe and receive eternal life--Satan is bound in that he is powerless to do anything about that.

To not believe that Christ defeated sin and death at the cross and is reigning now on earth thru believers and in heaven is to deny that He is both Christ and King.

Christ is ruling and reigning now--1000 years is ALWAYS and without exception a symbolic number in scripture--look it up. In Revelation it is most definitely figurative and signifies a long length of time--Satan is also bound symbolically for 1000 years-he was bound at the cross--does he still have influence over mankind--yes he does, but he has no power over death because Christ died for all--people need only to repent and believe and receive eternal life--Satan is bound in that he is powerless to do anything about that.

To not believe that Christ defeated sin and death at the cross and is reigning now on earth thru believers and in heaven is to deny that He is both Christ and King.

This looks to be " kingdom now"

NAR.