How the Pre-Trib Rapture Became Popular in the Modern Church
- Thread starter Aaron56
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
We need to take it in the context in which it is written. Angels are also called princes in the bible. A prince is under a king, so is of course lower--I've never heard anyone call Satan a 'king' and scripture certainly doesn't.
"“Soon I will return to fight against the prince of Persia, and when I go, the prince of Greece will come; but first I will tell you what is written in the Book of Truth."--Daniel 10:13 (this is just one example)
What are these principalities, powers, and rulers of the darkness? ... Principalities and powers simply describe angelic powers, those invisible, whether they be good or bad. But, in this context, the verse turns dark with the mention of the rulers and the spiritual wickedness in the heavenly places.
https://www.missiontools.org/resources/principalities-and-powers/
You need to really be careful with the definitions as in this case they clearly don't fit.
"“Soon I will return to fight against the prince of Persia, and when I go, the prince of Greece will come; but first I will tell you what is written in the Book of Truth."--Daniel 10:13 (this is just one example)
What are these principalities, powers, and rulers of the darkness? ... Principalities and powers simply describe angelic powers, those invisible, whether they be good or bad. But, in this context, the verse turns dark with the mention of the rulers and the spiritual wickedness in the heavenly places.
https://www.missiontools.org/resources/principalities-and-powers/
You need to really be careful with the definitions as in this case they clearly don't fit.
-
1
- Show all
No, we go by the definition of word. You are doing same thing pre-trib does when they refuse to accept the definition of Apostasia as as Apostasy or when eternal torment refuses to accept that destroy means to destroy. Archon means the first in rank. Either accept the definition of this word or go the route those other doctrines do to falsely support their doctrines.
Here's the definition once again:
Joh 14:30 Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me.
Prince here doesn't mean second in command or something like we think in modern English, it means the ruler, the first in rank or power:
G758
a?´????
archo¯n
ar'-khone
Present participle of G757; a first (in rank or power): - chief (ruler), magistrate, prince, ruler.
G758
a?´????
archo¯n
Thayer Definition:
1) a ruler, commander, chief, leader
Part of Speech: noun masculine
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: present participle of G757
Citing in TDNT: 1:488, 81
Those angels are rulers of those places. Satan is called ruler of this world.
-
1
- Show all
I just did! 
I am trying to show you something.
But, if it is too much effort or trouble to read the first-quoted post in my previous post - and then think about it just a bit...???
I am trying to show you something.
But, if it is too much effort or trouble to read the first-quoted post in my previous post - and then think about it just a bit...???
I don't play control games, running around try to figure out what you are getting at.
Show me plainly or drop it!
We need to take it in the context in which it is written. Angels are also called princes in the bible. A prince is under a king, so is of course lower--I've never heard anyone call Satan a 'king' and scripture certainly doesn't.
"“Soon I will return to fight against the prince of Persia, and when I go, the prince of Greece will come; but first I will tell you what is written in the Book of Truth."--Daniel 10:13 (this is just one example)
What are these principalities, powers, and rulers of the darkness? ... Principalities and powers simply describe angelic powers, those invisible, whether they be good or bad. But, in this context, the verse turns dark with the mention of the rulers and the spiritual wickedness in the heavenly places.
https://www.missiontools.org/resources/principalities-and-powers/
You need to really be careful with the definitions as in this case they clearly don't fit.
"“Soon I will return to fight against the prince of Persia, and when I go, the prince of Greece will come; but first I will tell you what is written in the Book of Truth."--Daniel 10:13 (this is just one example)
What are these principalities, powers, and rulers of the darkness? ... Principalities and powers simply describe angelic powers, those invisible, whether they be good or bad. But, in this context, the verse turns dark with the mention of the rulers and the spiritual wickedness in the heavenly places.
https://www.missiontools.org/resources/principalities-and-powers/
You need to really be careful with the definitions as in this case they clearly don't fit.
All the fallen angels do his bidding.
Satan is Head over the fallen angels.
And another sign appeared in heaven: behold, a great, fiery red dragon having seven heads and ten horns, and seven diadems on his heads. His tail drew a third of the stars of heaven and threw them to the earth.
Revelation 12:3
Satan is higher in authority and power then the fallen angels.
“You were the seal of perfection,
Full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.
You were in Eden, the garden of God;
Every precious stone was your covering:
The sardius, topaz, and diamond,
Beryl, onyx, and jasper,
Sapphire, turquoise, and emerald with gold.
The workmanship of your timbrels and pipes
Was prepared for you on the day you were created.
“You were the anointed cherub who covers;
I established you;
You were on the holy mountain of God;
You walked back and forth in the midst of fiery stones.
You were perfect in your ways from the day you were created,
Till iniquity was found in you.
God and Christ are over Satan--this has nothing to do with the trouble Satan causes on the earth Christ is KING now and forevermore--to say what you are saying is exactly what Satan wants! If a kingdom has a ruler, there may be those of lower rank like Haman who do evil, but the King still has authority over him and his end was in the king's hand, just as Satan's end is in Christ's hand.
If there is a kingdom then there needs to be a king and Satan is not it.
Luke 9:27
But I tell you truly, there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see the kingdom of God.”
Colossians 1:13
He has delivered us from the domain of darkness and transferred us to the kingdom of his beloved Son,
Matthew 16:19
I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”
Revelation 5:10
And you have made them a kingdom and priests to our God, and they shall reign on the earth. <and this is every believer NOW!
Revelation 1:4-5
John to the seven churches that are in Asia: Grace to you and peace from him who is and who was and who is to come, and from the seven spirits who are before his throne, and from Jesus Christ the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of kings on earth. To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood
Ephesians 1:20-21
That he worked in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly place.
Revelation 1:9
I, John, your brother and partner in the tribulation and the kingdom and the patient endurance that are in Jesus, was on the island called Patmos on account of the word of God and the testimony of Jesus.
1 Corinthians 15:24-28
Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power. For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. The last enemy to be destroyed is death. For “God has put all things in subjection under his feet.” But when it says, “all things are put in subjection,” it is plain that he is excepted who put all things in subjection under him. When all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will also be subjected to him who put all things in subjection under him, that God may be all in all.
John 17:1-2
When Jesus had spoken these words, he lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, “Father, the hour has come; glorify your Son that the Son may glorify you, since you have given him authority over all flesh, to give eternal life to all whom you have given him.
Matthew 10:7
And proclaim as you go, saying, ‘The kingdom of heaven is at hand.’
Matthew 4:23
And he went throughout all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues and proclaiming the gospel of the kingdom and healing every disease and every affliction among the people.
If there is a kingdom then there needs to be a king and Satan is not it.
Luke 9:27
But I tell you truly, there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see the kingdom of God.”
Colossians 1:13
He has delivered us from the domain of darkness and transferred us to the kingdom of his beloved Son,
Matthew 16:19
I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”
Revelation 5:10
And you have made them a kingdom and priests to our God, and they shall reign on the earth. <and this is every believer NOW!
Revelation 1:4-5
John to the seven churches that are in Asia: Grace to you and peace from him who is and who was and who is to come, and from the seven spirits who are before his throne, and from Jesus Christ the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of kings on earth. To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood
Ephesians 1:20-21
That he worked in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly place.
Revelation 1:9
I, John, your brother and partner in the tribulation and the kingdom and the patient endurance that are in Jesus, was on the island called Patmos on account of the word of God and the testimony of Jesus.
1 Corinthians 15:24-28
Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power. For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. The last enemy to be destroyed is death. For “God has put all things in subjection under his feet.” But when it says, “all things are put in subjection,” it is plain that he is excepted who put all things in subjection under him. When all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will also be subjected to him who put all things in subjection under him, that God may be all in all.
John 17:1-2
When Jesus had spoken these words, he lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, “Father, the hour has come; glorify your Son that the Son may glorify you, since you have given him authority over all flesh, to give eternal life to all whom you have given him.
Matthew 10:7
And proclaim as you go, saying, ‘The kingdom of heaven is at hand.’
Matthew 4:23
And he went throughout all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues and proclaiming the gospel of the kingdom and healing every disease and every affliction among the people.
-
2
- Show all
You are not supposed to guess; rather, to reason.
No control. No games.
I only try to get others to think for themselves instead of just "playing their tape" repeatedly.
But, there is waaaaay too much PRIDE getting in the way...
Nobody is willing to have a simple discussion about the details of prophetic scripture.
Everyone seems to prefer having a mud-slinging competition instead.
It is better if you 'see' it on your own; nonetheless, if you are going to refuse to make the effort to lift a finger to further your own edification --- I guess I will just have to spoon-feed you...???
How in the world do you study scripture?
You are not able to go read the passages regarding the Two Witnesses and the Trumpet Events to see if what I said in that first post makes sense???
Okay then - let me go find a bottle to put it in for you and I will see about explaining it in baby-steps in some future post(s)...
No control. No games.
I only try to get others to think for themselves instead of just "playing their tape" repeatedly.
But, there is waaaaay too much PRIDE getting in the way...
Nobody is willing to have a simple discussion about the details of prophetic scripture.
Everyone seems to prefer having a mud-slinging competition instead.
It is better if you 'see' it on your own; nonetheless, if you are going to refuse to make the effort to lift a finger to further your own edification --- I guess I will just have to spoon-feed you...???
How in the world do you study scripture?
You are not able to go read the passages regarding the Two Witnesses and the Trumpet Events to see if what I said in that first post makes sense???
Okay then - let me go find a bottle to put it in for you and I will see about explaining it in baby-steps in some future post(s)...
One of the things I find myself doing all-too-often is writing lengthy explanations and having not-a-single-soul so much as even acknowledge that they read it.
It then seems like a big waste of time and effort.
It is not about 'control' or 'games'; rather, it is about not feeling like I am just "filling the ether" in silence...
Very-precious-few want to have any kind of in-depth give-and-take discussion - most just want to "play their tape" repeatedly.
Oh, well...
It then seems like a big waste of time and effort.
It is not about 'control' or 'games'; rather, it is about not feeling like I am just "filling the ether" in silence...
Very-precious-few want to have any kind of in-depth give-and-take discussion - most just want to "play their tape" repeatedly.
Oh, well...
-
1
-
1
- Show all
gary,
"play the tape." yep.
i'm not sure how i ended back in pre-trib as it was one of the first forums i participated in--and i feel as you do--i take time to carefully construct an argument with bible verses and then....crickets.....why do i keep doing it? i'm in another forum--only when someone comments --it's the same person who has decided what my position is and obviously is not reading what I actually wrote and is clueless as to what actually believe. it is both frustrating and sad. I have learned some--not that I've ever changed my position--but expanded it on it, e.g. seeing verses I had read but seeing them in a new light.
However...I do feel I have often wasted my time and not to sound arrogant, but 'cast my pearls before swine'. So many answers are simply ad hominem attacks -- such as "that's baloney", "you are absolutely positively wrong!" and i have proven you wrong--just by saying that (i actually have given zero bible verses to back up what i'm saying)--that sort of nonsense.
Anyway, all that to say I get it.
-
1
-
1
- Show all
I'm not saying it- SCRIPTURE is--I am amazed as I posted numerous--NUMEROUS translations that say in plain simply language--I notice most of your posts are opinions Charlie--and I find it astounding the thumbs up and prizes given to opinions vs the WORD OF GOD. Utterly and completely discouraging.
-
1
- Show all
Out of the wedding.
There are saints there right now that are waiting for the wedding.
No wedding yet....but they are there none the less apart from the wedding.
The wedding is not salvation..
The 144k are messianic jews. They arrive in heaven around mid trib. They are seated at the supper in heaven.
They are the last seated.
They are there none the less.
You are thinking " salvation"
("No marriage chamber = no salvation"......i am not saying that)
There are saints there right now that are waiting for the wedding.
No wedding yet....but they are there none the less apart from the wedding.
The wedding is not salvation..
The 144k are messianic jews. They arrive in heaven around mid trib. They are seated at the supper in heaven.
They are the last seated.
They are there none the less.
You are thinking " salvation"
("No marriage chamber = no salvation"......i am not saying that)
-
1
- Show all
Dear Sister, our God has been ruling since Eternity. If the LORD was not ruling His Kingdom no one could be saved.
There was never a moment that the LORD was not in ALL Authority, Power and Control.
It is here on earth that man fell under the power of satan, sin and death.
This is why the LORD said to Pontius Pilate "My Kingdom is not of this world".
At the same time the WORD says "The earth is the LORD’s, and all its fullness, The world and those who dwell therein."
Again = "This is what the LORD says: “Heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool.
At the same time there is the ruling authority of satan and his angels.
Satan is NOT locked up in prison - nor is he bound from roaming this earth and causing devastation and harm.
"Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil walks about like a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour. Resist him, steadfast in the faith, knowing that the same sufferings are experienced by your brotherhood in the world." 1 Peter 5
"But even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, whose minds the god of this age has blinded, who do not believe, lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine on them." 2 Cor 4:4
Satan is here on earth, he is not locked up yet = Acts 5:3
Then Peter said, “Ananias, how is it that Satan has so filled your heart that you have lied to the Holy Spirit and have kept for yourself some of the money you received for the land?
The Apostle Paul said this concerning someone in the Lord who was in great sin: "hand this man over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved on the day of the Lord."
Satan is currently not locked up - "The God of peace will soon crush Satan under your feet. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you." Romans 16:20
Dear Sister, embrace ALL of the Word of Truth and you will have greater understanding - PEACE
There was never a moment that the LORD was not in ALL Authority, Power and Control.
It is here on earth that man fell under the power of satan, sin and death.
This is why the LORD said to Pontius Pilate "My Kingdom is not of this world".
At the same time the WORD says "The earth is the LORD’s, and all its fullness, The world and those who dwell therein."
Again = "This is what the LORD says: “Heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool.
At the same time there is the ruling authority of satan and his angels.
Satan is NOT locked up in prison - nor is he bound from roaming this earth and causing devastation and harm.
"Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil walks about like a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour. Resist him, steadfast in the faith, knowing that the same sufferings are experienced by your brotherhood in the world." 1 Peter 5
"But even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, whose minds the god of this age has blinded, who do not believe, lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine on them." 2 Cor 4:4
Satan is here on earth, he is not locked up yet = Acts 5:3
Then Peter said, “Ananias, how is it that Satan has so filled your heart that you have lied to the Holy Spirit and have kept for yourself some of the money you received for the land?
The Apostle Paul said this concerning someone in the Lord who was in great sin: "hand this man over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved on the day of the Lord."
Satan is currently not locked up - "The God of peace will soon crush Satan under your feet. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you." Romans 16:20
Dear Sister, embrace ALL of the Word of Truth and you will have greater understanding - PEACE
I know you need the 4 horsemen that kick off the great tribulation to be EXACTLY like noah living among heathens on earth before the flood, and lot living in sodom among heathens before it burned.
Not bible.
Not true no matter how cleverly you spin it.
It is as if you guys think the wrath of the 4 horsemen is just a little speed bump.
...and going so far as to say noah and lot lived in EXACTLY that dynamic prior to being gathered prejudgement.
I know...I know.....your deal needs that to be inverted.
Not bible.
Not true no matter how cleverly you spin it.
It is as if you guys think the wrath of the 4 horsemen is just a little speed bump.
...and going so far as to say noah and lot lived in EXACTLY that dynamic prior to being gathered prejudgement.
I know...I know.....your deal needs that to be inverted.