How the Pre-Trib Rapture Became Popular in the Modern Church

TheDivineWatermark · Dec 12, 2021

I perceive this as well

(and not just here at CC and on this thread, but everywhere that this Subject is being discussed, or where I read others with differing viewpoints conveying the way in which they understand the "pre-trib" viewpoint, tho not being pre-trib themselves [which is really "misunderstanding" it, from what I see of how they endeavor to explain...]).

DavidTree · Dec 12, 2021

iTheophilus said:

i absolutely will share with you.
Can i please ask you this first: How does Christ from Heaven, bring with Him the Saints who have died and there bodies are in the Graves???

To know the answer from His Word on this is the difference between trusting in our own understanding(religion),
OR
being submitted unto God, both Loving Him and Fearing Him, so that we do not sin.

Every word of God is flawless;
He is a shield to those who take refuge in Him.
Do not add to His words,
lest He rebuke you and prove you a liar. Proverbs 30:5-6

I testify to everyone who hears the words of prophecy in this book: If anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book. And if anyone takes away from the words of this book of prophecy, God will take away his share in the tree of life and the holy city, which are described in this book.

He who testifies to these things says, “Yes, I am coming soon.” Amen. Come, Lord Jesus! Revelation 22:18-19

The Greatest Gift God has given to us after our conversion and New Birth in Christ is His Holy Spirit.

Fall in Love with the Holy Spirit. Desire Him above all as HE is the Gift of Grace and Sanctification and Renewal of our minds, hearts and spirits. HE is the One who circumcises our hearts.

Laura798 · Dec 12, 2021

DavidTree said:

And notice how you changed the scripture to say David's bones.

“Fellow Israelites, I can tell you confidently that the patriarch David died and was buried, and his tomb is here to this day.--Acts 2:29

We are never to add or take away from scripture--it began with Eve--she added to God's command, 'and you shall not touch it'--from then on it has been a domino effect--adding, taking away, taking scripture out of context, isolating bible verses...on and on....

TheDivineWatermark · Dec 12, 2021

DavidTree said:

Fine, let's go with that... your illustration... (which illustration is STILL not addressing the POINT... the QUESTION being put to you

)

--since (in your "Post-Rapture" viewpoint) ALL SAINTS are "raptured" and of course have been given "GLORIFIED" bodies... it is not THESE who will "bear children / reproduce" in the MK age;

--those saints who have died previously to this point will be "RESURRECTED" and THEY don't "bear children / reproduce" (but are said to be "like the angels"... in that, they will "neither marry nor are given in marriage"... So what are you thinking with regard to these "RESURRECTED" persons... are THEY the ones to BEAR CHILDREN / REPRODUCE, so that by the END of the MK age there will be ppl "the NUMBER of whom is as the sand of the sea"... LOTS and LOTS of ppl); I say, no... these "resurrected" ppl aren't the ones who will bear children in the MK age;

--those ENTERING the MK age in "mortal bodies"... Scripture says that only the "RIGHTEOUS" [/SAVED ppl] will ENTER the MK age (it says this in MANY various ways throughout the Gospels!!); but are you saying that UNsaved persons (even if there's only TWO of them) will ENTER the MK age, following "the WRATH OF GOD" which will have occurred, as their having survived the wrath of God at that point??... (and go on to bear children / reproduce), so that Rev20:8's "the NUMBER of whom is as the sand of the sea" [TONS of ppl existing on the earth at the END of the MK age], can be fulfilled as being TRUE??; How (in your view) are those "TWO" UNsaved persons being able/permitted to ENTER the MK age, in view of what all the Gospels actually SAY about this??

iTheophilus · Dec 12, 2021

When a person dies, only the flesh dies, right?

DavidTree said:

i absolutely will share with you.
Can i please ask you this first: How does Christ from Heaven, bring with Him the Saints who have died and there bodies are in the Graves???

To know the answer from His Word on this is the difference between trusting in our own understanding(religion),
OR
being submitted unto God, both Loving Him and Fearing Him, so that we do not sin.

Every word of God is flawless;
He is a shield to those who take refuge in Him.
Do not add to His words,
lest He rebuke you and prove you a liar. Proverbs 30:5-6

I testify to everyone who hears the words of prophecy in this book: If anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book. And if anyone takes away from the words of this book of prophecy, God will take away his share in the tree of life and the holy city, which are described in this book.

He who testifies to these things says, “Yes, I am coming soon.” Amen. Come, Lord Jesus! Revelation 22:18-19

The Greatest Gift God has given to us after our conversion and New Birth in Christ is His Holy Spirit.

Fall in Love with the Holy Spirit. Desire Him above all as HE is the Gift of Grace and Sanctification and Renewal of our minds, hearts and spirits. HE is the One who circumcises our hearts.

Ah! We have two bodies. When a person dies, only his flesh body dies. Their spiritual body returns to God.

DavidTree · Dec 12, 2021

Laura798 said:

Dear Laura, You Laura are greatly Loved by Christ.

Get to know DavidTree for he loves everyone on here who come here to share and enter the workshop Sword Sharpening.

“Men and brethren, let me speak freely to you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his tomb is with us to this day. Acts 2:29

When the flesh rotted off the bones - what remains??? = Answer: David's bones. And not someone else's bones either, but David's bones are in Davids Tomb and no one else is there.

Where is David, is the answer you must find from the LORD who is looking right now upon you Sister, in favor, and waiting to Bless you.

"May the Lord lead your(our) hearts into a full understanding and expression of the love of God and the patient endurance that comes from Christ." 2 Thess 3:5

PEACE

iTheophilus · Dec 12, 2021

iTheophilus said:

The resurrection of the body and the resurrection of the soul to immortality are two different things.

DavidTree · Dec 12, 2021

iTheophilus said:

HALLELUYAH - Rejoice you heavens and YOU who DWELL in THEM.................Rev 12:10-12

Laura798 · Dec 12, 2021

DavidTree said:

I said it in the beginning of my post--we are all spiritually seated with Christ in the heavenlies,

"…made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in our trespasses. It is by grace you have been saved! And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with Him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, in order that in the coming ages He might display the surpassing riches of His grace, demonstrated by His kindness to us in Christ Jesus.…"--Ephesians 2:6-7

How are we seated with Him now? Because He reigns in our hearts! "I am in them and you are in me. May they experience such perfect unity that the world will know that you sent me and that you love them as much as you love me."--John 17:23

If you read the rest of that section it says plainly "the dead in Christ will RISE first" so of course they cannot be coming with Him from heaven! And it would make the rest of scripture false if you believed somehow believers circumvented the judgment and got their wedding clothes before the bridegroom comes.

"…Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— in an instant, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. For the perishable must be clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality.…"--1st Corinthians 15:52

DavidTree · Dec 12, 2021

iTheophilus said:

HALLELUYAH

DavidTree · Dec 12, 2021

Laura798 said:

Why do you think they are not coming with Him when HE, the LORD, specifically said HE will bring them with Him.

Brothers, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death,c so that you will not grieve like the rest, who are without hope. For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again,
we also believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep/died in Him.

Dwell on this Promise and be at Peace with Truth that will shock us into reality of that which we previously did not see.

DavidTree · Dec 12, 2021

DavidTree said:

iTheophilus said:

The Resurrection of our Soul is the New Birth in Christ = John ch3

And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.

But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,
even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),
and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

TheDivineWatermark · Dec 12, 2021

"this mortal shall have put on immortality" / "this mortal must put on immortality" (vv.53-54) speaks of what must take place regarding the physical body (the mortal body).

Laura798 · Dec 12, 2021

DavidTree said:

Was it merely Lazarus' bones and decaying body in the tomb? Was it his bones that were resurrected, or Lazarus himself? Was it Jesus bones and decaying body or was it Jesus himself who was resurrected?

To preface David with 'patriarch' is to understand it is speaking of his person-hood and not his disintegrated flesh or his remaining bones. Decayed flesh or bones in the ground hold no spiritual importance--it is the essence of who we are that receives eternal life and an incorruptible body--and is the only way we can stand before Christ at the judgment. As I said before the wedding clothes are not given out prior to the wedding.

Laura798 · Dec 12, 2021

DavidTree said:

Please read story of the blind man who received his sight--I can empathize with his frustration at being questioned again and again by the Pharisees after having already given them an answer!

Laura798 · Dec 12, 2021

DavidTree said:

You can't take things that are meant to be understood spiritually so concretely--I went on at length in my post, making it perfectly clear how we come with Him--if you take it in such a concrete way that means you are ignoring the rest of that section of Thessalonians and the rest of scripture! Again I say we must test scripture against scripture. (I feel like a broken record at this point--you aren't really reading my posts.)

Maybe you need to read how the apostles kept taking everything Jesus was saying literally:

"When they crossed to the other side, the disciples forgot to take bread. “Watch out!” Jesus told them. “ Beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and Sadducees.” They discussed this among themselves and concluded, “It is because we did not bring any bread.”…"--Matthew 16:6

"Meanwhile his disciples urged him, “Rabbi, eat something.” But he said to them, “I have food to eat that you know nothing about.” Then his disciples said to each other, “Could someone have brought him food?” “My food,” said Jesus, “is to do the will of him who sent me and to finish his work. --John 4:31-34

"…After Jesus had left the crowd and gone into the house, His disciples inquired about the parable. So He said to them, “Are you thus without understanding also? Do you not perceive that whatever enters a man from outside cannot defile him,…"--Mark 7:18

TheDivineWatermark · Dec 12, 2021

TheDivineWatermark said:

ooo boy... this should have read: "(in your "Post-Trib Rapture" viewpoint)..."

Laura798 · Dec 12, 2021

iTheophilus said:

This belief is inconsistent with what the rest of scripture teaches--it is in the isolation and misunderstanding of scripture that false doctrine originates--there is no point in the judgment if believers can ascend directly to heaven at their death--it is impossible for them to be in heaven in their 'spirit'--as the 'spirit' would mean they were naked and not clothed with their incorruptible bodies. Even angels had celestial bodies! Scripture says NO ONE has ascended, except Christ.

Please read my posts #5209--we do not receive our incorruptible bodies until Christ's second coming--please test scripture against scripture. It is impossible to stand before God without our incorruptible bodies which we only receive at Christ's second coming.

Jesus did not ascend when He died--he said Himself "I have not yet ascended to the Father"--and didn't do so until 40 days later!Neither did Lazarus (described as being asleep) nor anyone else who has died. The angels told the apostles it would be the same with us--why do you think it says 'those who are asleep?' All of the people Jesus resurrected were said to be 'asleep'.

1 Thessalonians 4:13-18
But we do not want you to be uninformed, brothers, about those who are asleep, that you may not grieve as others do who have no hope. For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep. For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord. ...
1 Thessalonians 4:14 For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep.
1 Thessalonians 4:13
But we do not want you to be uninformed, brothers, about those who are asleep, that you may not grieve as others do who have no hope.
1 Corinthians 15:6 Then he appeared to more than five hundred brothers at one time, most of whom are still alive, though some have fallen asleep.
Revelation 14:13
And I heard a voice from heaven saying, “Write this: Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on.” “Blessed indeed,” says the Spirit, “that they may rest from their labors, for their deeds follow them!”
John 11:11-14
After saying these things, he said to them, “Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep, but I go to awaken him.” The disciples said to him, “Lord, if he has fallen asleep, he will recover.” Now Jesus had spoken of his death, but they thought that he meant taking rest in sleep. Then Jesus told them plainly, “Lazarus has died,
Matthew 27:52
The tombs also were opened. And many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised,
Daniel 12:2
And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
Ecclesiastes 9:5
For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing, and they have no more reward, for the memory of them is forgotten.
John 5:28-29
Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment.
1 Corinthians 15:20
But in fact Christ has been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep.
2 Corinthians 5:8
Yes, we are of good courage, and we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord.
John 5:28
Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice
Acts 7:60
And falling to his knees he cried out with a loud voice, “Lord, do not hold this sin against them.” And when he had said this, he fell asleep.
Romans 5:12
Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned
1 Thessalonians 4:16
For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.
1 Thessalonians 4:15
For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep.
1 Corinthians 15:51
Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1 Corinthians 15:18
Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished.
Acts 13:36
For David, after he had served the purpose of God in his own generation, fell asleep and was laid with his fathers and saw corruption,
John 11:11
After saying these things, he said to them, “Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep, but I go to awaken him.”
Psalm 13:3
Consider and answer me, O Lord my God; light up my eyes, lest I sleep the sleep of death,

https://www.openbible.info/topics/fall_asleep_in_death

Runningman · Dec 12, 2021

Charlie24 said:

I, for one, understand how you’ve gotten to the pre-trib view of the rapture. However, what I see is a general mangling of and fiddling with the scriptures to shoehorn the [pre-trib] doctrine into the Bible. Most of the contention you see, I venture to say, are people trying to correct you and get you back to sola scriptura.

The pre-trib rapture just isn’t in the Bible. I think people are just appalled by watching pre-tribbers reject the overwhelming evidence against them. I don’t think post-tribbers view pre-tribbers as honest and are trying to do damage control to preserve the integrity of the scripture. False doctrines can’t be allowed to go unchallenged and uncorrected. This debate will end when pre-tribbers stop responding.

DavidTree · Dec 12, 2021

Laura798 said:

Was it merely Lazarus' bones and decaying body in the tomb? Was it his bones that were resurrected, or Lazarus himself? Was it Jesus bones and decaying body or was it Jesus himself who was resurrected?

To preface David with 'patriarch' is to understand it is speaking of his person-hood and not his disintegrated flesh or his remaining bones. Decayed flesh or bones in the ground hold no spiritual importance--it is the essence of who we are that receives eternal life and an incorruptible body--and is the only way we can stand before Christ at the judgment. As I said before the wedding clothes are not given out prior to the wedding.

i have to go now -will talk with you later

How the Pre-Trib Rapture Became Popular in the Modern Church

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