How To Understand Romans Chapter 9

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posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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#21
That's true, the Bible says we are saved by Grace through faith.
by His grace and by believing that He has accomplished our salvation

that's all about Him and what He has purposed and done, and not about me and what i've purposed and done.

'Him' being the One who created all things, you, me, even time itself... and 'me' being clay in His hands
 
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7seasrekeyed

Guest
#22
Read Proverbs 1:23 in English in order to understand all in the Scriptures and not only Romans Chapter 9.

uh...if you have accepted Christ as your Savior, there is repentance involved ...you know? changed your mind about your direction and agreed with God?

no one 100% understands all the scriptures, but we can rely on the Holy Spirit and godly teachers filled with God's Spirit (as in gifted by God and not going off with their own interpretation) to help us to understand

we renew our minds by the word of God. it is not a one time thing; but an ongoing lifetime occurrence
 
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#23
. . as many as were appointed to eternal life believed.
(Acts 13:48)

what does this mean?
:)


why doesn't it say "as man as believed were appointed to eternal life" instead of what it actually says?
It doesn't say they were appointed [by God] if that is your point.
 
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7seasrekeyed

Guest
#24
7 What then? What the people of Israel sought so earnestly they did not obtain. The elect among them did, but the others were hardened,8 as it is written:
“God gave them a spirit of stupor,

Seems pretty clear that God did.

they received their disbelief because of disobedience

much like today...God will allow people to go after their own desires, Christian or not, and they will either come to the end of themself and turn back, or they will walk off the cliff

God does not force people to love Him and if we do in fact love Him as we say we do, we will also obey Him...I am not talking about OT law here
 
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7seasrekeyed

Guest
#25
I've taught English before, including literature. Because of that, I've shown the story arc in a few books -- where the inciting incident was, where the rising action was, the climax, the falling action, and the denouement. I can show that in books, articles, fiction, non-fiction, whatev.

I have taught how to communicate, in many ways and forms.

I don't understand the point of your post, but I can give you some clarity about you from it:
1. Don't count on your conscience. It failed you.
2. Don't use the Holy Spirit in that way. He's not your personal defense. He didn't fail you, but only because you never used him.
3. Christ did witness this. He witnesses all we do, and most the time he witnesses sin. So that wasn't a good defense either.
4. This wasn't truth. This wasn't a lie either. This wasn't communicating.

I joined this site thinking I might learn something. I might, but not from you, because you do not communicate. Trying to explain a book by including only the ending of the climax as the length and breadth of the story only shows that you don't like the story, or you want it to say what you want it to say.

You're right. It's not about "predestination Calvinists." It never was. It's not about frogs that can't jump either.

are you able to 'communicate' without insulting people you seem to consider inferior to your great superiority?

not gonna fly well here bro.

I do not always agree with the op, but I agree even less with folks who just joined and think they are 'all that'

I won't respond to insults but go ahead if that is your actual method of communication :rolleyes:
 
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#27
appointed themselves?
Yes, just as the Jews considered themselves unworthy of it:
Then Paul and Barnabas answered them boldly: “We had to speak the word of God to you first. Since you reject it and do not consider yourselves worthy of eternal life, we now turn to the Gentiles.
Acts 13:46 NIV
https://bible.com/bible/111/act.13.46.NIV
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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#28
Yes, just as the Jews considered themselves unworthy of it:
Then Paul and Barnabas answered them boldly: “We had to speak the word of God to you first. Since you reject it and do not consider yourselves worthy of eternal life, we now turn to the Gentiles.
Acts 13:46 NIV
https://bible.com/bible/111/act.13.46.NIV
as they say of themselves

Why, O LORD, do You cause us to stray from Your ways and harden our heart from fearing You?
Return for the sake of Your servants, the tribes of Your heritage.
(Isaiah 63:17)
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
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#29
7 What then? What the people of Israel sought so earnestly they did not obtain. The elect among them did, but the others were hardened,8 as it is written:
“God gave them a spirit of stupor,

Seems pretty clear that God did.
You are simply deliberately misunderstanding the meaning. So why don't you read Hebrew 3 and 4 and see that God plead with Israelites to not harden their hearts? It is only after they refuse to give heed and believe God that He hardens their hearts.
 
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#30
as they say of themselves

Why, O LORD, do You cause us to stray from Your ways and harden our heart from fearing You?
Return for the sake of Your servants, the tribes of Your heritage.
(Isaiah 63:17)
This OP is about Ro ch 9 not taking various verses out of context from all over the Bible. Let's not play Bible hopscotch please. Do you have anything to say about Ro ch 9?
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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#31
This OP is about Ro ch 9 not taking various verses out of context from all over the Bible. Let's not play Bible hopscotch please. Do you have anything to say about Ro ch 9?
in Romans 9 verse 9, Paul quotes Genesis 18, speaking about that which God has promised. this is in Genesis 18 regarding that promise:

For I have chosen him, so that he may command his children and his household after him to keep the way of the Lord by doing righteousness and justice, so that the Lord may bring upon Abraham what He has spoken about him.
(Genesis 18:19)

this says God chose Abraham in order to preserve and keep the way of the Lord, not that God chose Abraham because he kept and preserved His way, or that Abraham chose first and God auto-responded. that this is in order to carry out the purpose of the Lord which the Lord has spoken. i think it's interesting that the origin of these things is in God, not in man
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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#32
One of you will say to me:
“Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist His will?”
(Romans 9:19)

who says this?
why do they say it?
what are they responding to with this question?
why does it come up?
why is it an obvious question?
what kind of person asks it?
how does Paul know this question will naturally be raised?
what is it he's just said that would lead to this question?
what fact is the natural precursor to this question?
what would someone have to "know" in order to ask this?
who would know this?
how would they know it?
why would they know it?
 
Jan 6, 2018
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#33
in Romans 9 verse 9, Paul quotes Genesis 18, speaking about that which God has promised. this is in Genesis 18 regarding that promise:

For I have chosen him, so that he may command his children and his household after him to keep the way of the Lord by doing righteousness and justice, so that the Lord may bring upon Abraham what He has spoken about him.
(Genesis 18:19)

this says God chose Abraham in order to preserve and keep the way of the Lord, not that God chose Abraham because he kept and preserved His way, or that Abraham chose first and God auto-responded. that this is in order to carry out the purpose of the Lord which the Lord has spoken. i think it's interesting that the origin of these things is in God, not in man
It is about God choosing. Now what is God choosing concerning Abraham in Rom 9? You just can't help yourself from running away from Romans 9.
 

ComeLordJesus

Senior Member
Dec 26, 2017
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#34
One of you will say to me:
“Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist His will?”
(Romans 9:19)

who says this?
why do they say it?
what are they responding to with this question?
why does it come up?
why is it an obvious question?
what kind of person asks it?
how does Paul know this question will naturally be raised?
what is it he's just said that would lead to this question?
what fact is the natural precursor to this question?
what would someone have to "know" in order to ask this?
who would know this?
how would they know it?
why would they know it?

It would be my guess it is the Jews.
 

Embankment

Senior Member
Feb 28, 2017
693
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#35
It would be my guess it is the Jews.
Yes the Jews. The Jews in general terms represent the failure of human kind to please God (the first covenant). Through Jesus we are given chance number two that the Jews to this day reject.
22 What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? 23 What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory— 24 even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles
 
Jan 6, 2018
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#36
One of you will say to me:
“Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist His will?”
(Romans 9:19)

who says this?
why do they say it?
what are they responding to with this question?
why does it come up?
why is it an obvious question?
what kind of person asks it?
how does Paul know this question will naturally be raised?
what is it he's just said that would lead to this question?
what fact is the natural precursor to this question?
what would someone have to "know" in order to ask this?
who would know this?
how would they know it?
why would they know it?
A fictional person. Paul is begging the question to his argument. But the fact is it doesn't say God makes vessels of wrath and makes vessels of mercy. Man makes himself for destruction.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
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#37
i think it's interesting that the origin of these things is in God, not in man
Yes God does elect specific individuals (even nations such as Israel) for specific purposes or specific ministries. We see that in Romans 9.

But that DOES NOT automatically translate into God choosing some for salvation and others for damnation.

This is where the Calvinists go off the rails.

Did God compel Esau to give up his birthright for a bowl of food? Not at all. God holds unspiritual Esau fully responsible for his unbelief.

Lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright. (Heb 12:16)

That word "profane" is βέβηλος (bebélos) which means profane, secular, unspiritual, godless, worldly .
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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#39
it does literally say, "you will say to me then" -- does that mean you are fictional? does it mean no one says this? the Bible says "you" - the one reading it - will say this. are we all fictional?

why do "you" arrive at this question?