How To Understand Romans Chapter 9

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posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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#81
How about interpreting within the context of the chapter. Then it means 'has God's Word failed about Jesus being the Messiah to the Jews since the Jews are rejecting Him?'
within the context of the chapter is "It is not as though God’s word had failed" ((v. 6))
Paul lists 8 things belonging to Israel in vv. 4-5, not just one:


  • adoption to sonship
  • the divine glory
  • the covenants
  • the receiving of the Law
  • the temple worship
  • the promises
  • the patriarchs
  • the human ancestry of the Messiah
none of these are "the existence of the Messiah" -- that Christ has indeed come is not in any doubt at all neither in this chapter nor in the whole epistle. whether the Jews reject or accept Him doesn't change the fact that He is who He is; i don't see that argument being made in Romans at all.
Deuteronomy 9 is in re: several of the things in this list, in particular the promises to the patriarchs, entirely within the context of what Paul is discussing in Romans 9. a large percentage of this chapter is direct quotations from the OT; why then are you upset if i read from the OT in order to comprehend it?
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
31,709
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#82
I would just say this, If you think you will do something that surprises God, don't because God knows you, As david said, you knew me in my mothers womb,

God knows us better than we know ourselves. We can say we would never do somethiing, but God is not fooled. He KNOWS if we would or not (given all circumstances)
"you knew me in my mother's womb" is only half the verse, the second half.

For you created my inmost being;
you knit me together in my mother’s womb.

we are both fearfully & wonderfully made :)
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#83
"you knew me in my mother's womb" is only half the verse, the second half.

For you created my inmost being;
you knit me together in my mother’s womb.

we are both fearfully & wonderfully made :)
Did God create David to commit adultery with another mans wife, and then have her husband killed?

Yet God knew david if tempted would do those things, he did not suprise God.

have to be careful how we say things, One could think others are saying God caused David to sin.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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#84
If the clay (Isreal becomes deformed in his hand (by sin) does not the clay have the right to start over?
wouldn't this be like the clay protesting to the potter, 'why have you made me like this?'
i think the response to the question in Romans 9:19 is that the potter has the rights, not the clay. having been a misshapen lump of mud and being reformed into a good vessel is His grace to me, not my prerogative. i know you agree because this is what personally makes me '
eternally grateful' haha
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
31,709
10,647
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#85
Did God create David to commit adultery with another mans wife, and then have her husband killed?

Yet God knew david if tempted would do those things, he did not suprise God.

have to be careful how we say things, One could think others are saying God caused David to sin.
yeah that is exactly the pitfall!

there's a line in a song i know, a man wrote about his wife "it is a comfort for me to know You've willed it that I need her"

God is absolutely not the author of evil, but isn't it true He willed it that we need Him
 
Mar 28, 2016
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#86
So you are saying that they were predestined for damnation. Which is totally false. If predestination for salvation were true, then all Israel would have been saved. Read the opening verses of Romans 9.
Not all Israel are born again Israel. or saved Israel. As many as the father gave will come, not one more or one less. Names were written in the Lamb book of life from before the foundation of the world. He called those he decided to give eternal life, from that book . He is the keeper as the author and finisher of His books

The book of the law, (the whole Bible) as it is written is the one source of Christian faith it establishes the gospel .

Romans 2:12For as many as have sinned without law (words of the Bible) shall also perish without law: (words of the Bible) and as many as have sinned in the law (words of the Bible) shall be judged by the law;(words of the Bible)
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#87
yeah that is exactly the pitfall!

there's a line in a song i know, a man wrote about his wife "it is a comfort for me to know You've willed it that I need her"

God is absolutely not the author of evil, but isn't it true He willed it that we need Him
I think it is deeper than this.

He not only willed, but created us to need him, He created us for the purpose of loving and serving us and taking care of all our needs, and it pleased him to do so.

Our rebellion was to turn from that, and say thanks God but no thanks, I want to take care of myself. And ever since mankind has tried to fill that hole left by our turning away that only God can fill.
 
Mar 28, 2016
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#88
yeah that is exactly the pitfall!

there's a line in a song i know, a man wrote about his wife "it is a comfort for me to know You've willed it that I need her"

God is absolutely not the author of evil, but isn't it true He willed it that we need Him
Two kinds of evils.

One that comes by refusing to do the will of God and the other when God brings or creates a evil on a person or nation in a hope they will repent . God many time brought evil om the Jews bringing a other nation using the Jews as slaves to punish them

I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.Isaiah 45:7
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#89
wouldn't this be like the clay protesting to the potter, 'why have you made me like this?'
i think the response to the question in Romans 9:19 is that the potter has the rights, not the clay. having been a misshapen lump of mud and being reformed into a good vessel is His grace to me, not my prerogative. i know you agree because this is what personally makes me '
eternally grateful' haha
I was just going of the OT quote to get context.

Is 29:
13 Therefore the Lord said:

“Inasmuch as these people draw near with their mouths
And honor Me with their lips,
But have removed their hearts far from Me,
And their fear toward Me is taught by the commandment of men,
14 Therefore, behold, I will again do a marvelous work
Among this people,
A marvelous work and a wonder;
For the wisdom of their wise men shall perish,
And the understanding of their prudent men shall be hidden.”


15 Woe to those who seek deep to hide their counsel far from the Lord,
And their works are in the dark;
They say, “Who sees us?” and, “Who knows us?”
16 Surely you have things turned around!
Shall the potter be esteemed as the clay;
For shall the thing made say of him who made it,
“He did not make me”?
Or shall the thing formed say of him who formed it,
“He has no understanding”?


Context the restoration of Gods work among this people (Isreal)

Jer 18:
4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter; so he made it again into another vessel, as it seemed good to the potter to make.
5 Then the word of the Lord came to me, saying: 6 “O house of Israel, can I not do with you as this potter?” says the Lord. “Look, as the clay is in the potter’s hand, so are you in My hand, O house of Israel! 7 The instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, to pull down, and to destroy it, 8 if that nation against whom I have spoken turns from its evil, I will relent of the disaster that I thought to bring upon it. 9 And the instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it, 10 if it does evil in My sight so that it does not obey My voice, then I will relent concerning the good with which I said I would benefit it.
11 “Now therefore, speak to the men of Judah and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, saying, ‘Thus says the Lord: “Behold, I am fashioning a disaster and devising a plan against you. Return now every one from his evil way, and make your ways and your doings good.” ’ ”

A prophesy of God reforming Isreal in his hand, as the clay became marred (by the sin of the people) and Gods promise of when they repent, he will relent of his promise to destroy it, which other prophets state will happen in the last days.
 
Mar 28, 2016
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#90
I was just going of the OT quote to get context.

Is 29:
13 Therefore the Lord said:

“Inasmuch as these people draw near with their mouths
And honor Me with their lips,
But have removed their hearts far from Me,
And their fear toward Me is taught by the commandment of men,
14 Therefore, behold, I will again do a marvelous work
Among this people,
A marvelous work and a wonder;
For the wisdom of their wise men shall perish,
And the understanding of their prudent men shall be hidden.”


15 Woe to those who seek deep to hide their counsel far from the Lord,
And their works are in the dark;
They say, “Who sees us?” and, “Who knows us?”
16 Surely you have things turned around!
Shall the potter be esteemed as the clay;
For shall the thing made say of him who made it,
“He did not make me”?
Or shall the thing formed say of him who formed it,
“He has no understanding”?


Context the restoration of Gods work among this people (Isreal)

Jer 18:
4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter; so he made it again into another vessel, as it seemed good to the potter to make.
5 Then the word of the Lord came to me, saying: 6 “O house of Israel, can I not do with you as this potter?” says the Lord. “Look, as the clay is in the potter’s hand, so are you in My hand, O house of Israel! 7 The instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, to pull down, and to destroy it, 8 if that nation against whom I have spoken turns from its evil, I will relent of the disaster that I thought to bring upon it. 9 And the instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it, 10 if it does evil in My sight so that it does not obey My voice, then I will relent concerning the good with which I said I would benefit it.
11 “Now therefore, speak to the men of Judah and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, saying, ‘Thus says the Lord: “Behold, I am fashioning a disaster and devising a plan against you. Return now every one from his evil way, and make your ways and your doings good.” ’ ”

A prophesy of God reforming Isreal in his hand, as the clay became marred (by the sin of the people) and Gods promise of when they repent, he will relent of his promise to destroy it, which other prophets state will happen in the last days.

Repentance is a work of God as in all cases he the faithful Creator must do the first works If he waited for us to repent having no knowledge of Him and therefore no way to seek after his understanding who would we repent to (ease or comfort oneself) the imaginations of our own hearts?


As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. Roman 3:10-12

Context the restoration of Gods work among this people (Isreal)


Not all Israel is born again Israel some take away the Potters understanding (found alone in the scriptures) no faith no way to seek after God through the oral tradition of men that do make the word of God (prophecy) without effect
 
Jan 6, 2018
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#91
within the context of the chapter is "It is not as though God’s word had failed" ((v. 6))
Paul lists 8 things belonging to Israel in vv. 4-5, not just one:


  • adoption to sonship
  • the divine glory
  • the covenants
  • the receiving of the Law
  • the temple worship
  • the promises
  • the patriarchs
  • the human ancestry of the Messiah
none of these are "the existence of the Messiah" -- that Christ has indeed come is not in any doubt at all neither in this chapter nor in the whole epistle. whether the Jews reject or accept Him doesn't change the fact that He is who He is; i don't see that argument being made in Romans at all.
Deuteronomy 9 is in re: several of the things in this list, in particular the promises to the patriarchs, entirely within the context of what Paul is discussing in Romans 9. a large percentage of this chapter is direct quotations from the OT; why then are you upset if i read from the OT in order to comprehend it?
See, there you again taking me and Ro 9 out of context. There is more to the chapter than the two verses you reference.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
31,709
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#92
See, there you again taking me and Ro 9 out of context.
put Deuteronomy 9 together with what EG just showed us in Jeremiah 18 and you get Romans 9:22-24 & Romans 11:11-12, 28-32

not at all out of context.

what i would call out of context is separating Romans 9 from the rest of the Bible :)
((that's hyperbole ))


There is more to the chapter than the two verses you reference.
i am certainly not trying to give the impression that in a single post i could explain all of this chapter!
one could write for the rest of their lives about a single verse and never exhaust it
 
Jan 6, 2018
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#93
put Deuteronomy 9 together with what EG just showed us in Jeremiah 18 and you get Romans 9:22-24 & Romans 11:11-12, 28-32

not at all out of context.

what i would call out of context is separating Romans 9 from the rest of the Bible :)
((that's hyperbole ))




i am certainly not trying to give the impression that in a single post i could explain all of this chapter!
one could write for the rest of their lives about a single verse and never exhaust it
How could you and anyone with a third grade reading level claim Rom 9 is not about the Jews rejecting Jesus as their Messiah? It is as plain as the nose on your face if you actually read the chapter and stop ignoring these parts:
I speak the truth in Christ—I am not lying, my conscience confirms it through the Holy Spirit— I have great sorrow and unceasing anguish in my heart. For I could wish that I myself were cursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my people, those of my own race, the people of Israel. Theirs is the adoption to sonship; theirs the divine glory, the covenants, the receiving of the law, the temple worship and the promises. Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them is traced the human ancestry of the Messiah, who is God over all, forever praised! Amen. but the people of Israel, who pursued the law as the way of righteousness, have not attained their goal. Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone. As it is written: “See, I lay in Zion a stone that causes people to stumble and a rock that makes them fall, and the one who believes in him will never be put to shame.”
Romans 9:1‭-‬5‭, ‬31‭-‬33 NIV
https://bible.com/bible/111/rom.9.1-33.NIV
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
31,709
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#94
taking me and Ro 9 out of context.
part of the context of Romans 9 is "the promises" ((v.4)) and whether their national failure to enter in through Him by their state of unbelief means God's word has failed ((v.6))

as the Lord has promised you
(Deuteronomy 9:3)
how is reading about the details of these very same promises out of context? isn't Romans 9:31 inextricably linked to Moses' warning in Deuteronomy 9:4-5? it's exactly the same! it's entering His rest by faith ((Romans 9:30 vis-à-vis Deuteronomy 9:29)) and not by works ((Romans 9:31 vis-à-vis Deuteronomy 9:6)) - this is all about Christ, and Christ is all over every page of the Law and the prophets.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
31,709
10,647
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#95
Rom 9 is not about the Jews rejecting Jesus as their Messiah?

show me where i said that??

i just cited Romans 11:31 in the very post you replied to with this accusation. guess what Romans 11:31 says?

so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now receive mercy as a result of God’s mercy to you.

disobedient how? in unbelief - Romans 11:23, which i also just cited in the same post - unbelief which is exactly rejection of their Messiah.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#96
put Deuteronomy 9 together with what EG just showed us in Jeremiah 18 and you get Romans 9:22-24 & Romans 11:11-12, 28-32

not at all out of context.

what i would call out of context is separating Romans 9 from the rest of the Bible :)
((that's hyperbole ))




i am certainly not trying to give the impression that in a single post i could explain all of this chapter!
one could write for the rest of their lives about a single verse and never exhaust it
seems we have just touched the surface of romans 9, let alone spoke of chapters 10 and 11 (we touched them only)
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#97
How could you and anyone with a third grade reading level claim Rom 9 is not about the Jews rejecting Jesus as their Messiah?

This is not the way to have a good conversation. It is a way to get people to give you the hand and walk away
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
31,709
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#98
i don't understand what you're upset about, Devo.
do you want me to just click "
like" on the OP and confine all replies to "yeah OP is 100%" ??

boring thread, IMO.

there is way more in this text than "
the Jews rejected Christ" and chasing all that "more" down leads all over the scripture.
even the first obvious question arising from that statement, "
why did they reject Him?" encompasses the whole Bible and hasn't yet been fully explored in thousands of years of human thought.
 
Jan 6, 2018
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#99
show me where i said that??

i just cited Romans 11:31 in the very post you replied to with this accusation. guess what Romans 11:31 says?

so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now receive mercy as a result of God’s mercy to you.

disobedient how? in unbelief - Romans 11:23, which i also just cited in the same post - unbelief which is exactly rejection of their Messiah.
You said it in your post #81:

"none of these are "the existence of the Messiah" -- that Christ has indeed come is not in any doubt at all neither in this chapter nor in the whole epistle. whether the Jews reject or accept Him doesn't change the fact that He is who He is; i don't see that argument being made in Romans at all. "