Hypocrisy

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Feb 3, 2010
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#1
Many nonChristians mention hypocrisy as the number one reason they do not attend church. I have a theory about this - I tend to believe that many people use this as an accuse for not going; however I also think the more credible folks see our character as hateful rather than loving. Our focus on doctrine rather than service to our neighbors is the real hypocrisy, yet we seem to think it is our failure to live up to our doctrinal moral standards.

Does anyone else see this? And if so, how can we do a better job of reaching out to our neighbors?
 
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glenwood74

Guest
#2
Excellent question. For one, I think we must move to separate ourselves from the normalities of our current society. There is so much in this present day life in the United States that draws us apart from each other: TV, internet, toys, video games, etc. We spend so much time at home, when we are not working, that we miss out on opportunities to serve in our communities. I think we must sacrifice some of our free time to get out of our comfort zones and find those around us that need someone to help them.

proverbs 18: 1....A recluse is self-indulgent, snarling at every sound principle of conduct.

It seems our hypocrisy knows no bounds.
 
Feb 3, 2010
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#3
Excellent question. For one, I think we must move to separate ourselves from the normalities of our current society. There is so much in this present day life in the United States that draws us apart from each other: TV, internet, toys, video games, etc. We spend so much time at home, when we are not working, that we miss out on opportunities to serve in our communities. I think we must sacrifice some of our free time to get out of our comfort zones and find those around us that need someone to help them.

proverbs 18: 1....A recluse is self-indulgent, snarling at every sound principle of conduct.

It seems our hypocrisy knows no bounds.

Great ideas. My wife and I just canceled our cable last November - it has made such a big difference in our lives - we have a lot more time to connect with friends and family. Also, my anxiety has decreased dramatically - I think it is do to not watching cable news all evening. I do not miss it at all.
 
Jan 8, 2009
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#4
It's only an excuse, what they really mean is "i dont believe in your god and think you're all loonies and have something better to do".
 
Dec 19, 2009
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#5
I think there is hypocrisy in churches, but then, whoever said the church is perfect? My church certainly isn’t perfect, in my opinion, but it is a great blessing to me.
 
Dec 19, 2009
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#6
It's only an excuse, what they really mean is "i dont believe in your god and think you're all loonies and have something better to do".
More likely, “I’d rather watch TV than go to church.”
 
Jan 8, 2009
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#7
In that respect I share their sentiment. TV is more fun than church.
 
Jan 8, 2009
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#9
Let me rephrase, bacon and eggs and mushrooms and baked beans and tomato and sausages and hash browns on a lazy sunday morning in front of the TV....

But thats why many churches have mid morning or evening services now...so theres no excuse really.
 

wattie

Senior Member
Feb 24, 2009
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#10
Doctrine is important.

What you believe about theology is more important than your behaviour and works.

I mean.. a person could be living a good moral life.. yet believe Satan is their God. Jehovah's Witnesses are very good with business in general, live clean lives and are good stewards alot of the time.. but if they reject the deity of Jesus.. their behaviour isn't very important.

Behaviour is important only when it is the result of relying on the Holy Spirit.. which is intertwined with what you believe theologically anyway. Actions reflecting what you believe.

So you know I see many christians post on here about getting on with eachother and unifying.. but unifying under what teaching? Ecumenicism? Syncreatic truth?

But as far as hypocrisy goes anyway.. non-christians are often hypocrites themselves.. asking christians to hold to moral integrity.. yet not upholding it themselves alot of the time. So it goes both ways.
 
O

oopsies

Guest
#11
Let me rephrase, bacon and eggs and mushrooms and baked beans and tomato and sausages and hash browns on a lazy sunday morning in front of the TV....

But thats why many churches have mid morning or evening services now...so theres no excuse really.
But you don't go to church if I recall? Or was that someone else?
 
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greatkraw

Guest
#12
yeah hypocrisy is a cop out

the easiest way not to be hypocritical is not to embrace any standards

it reminds me of a lifelong fornicator i know

he called Clinton immoral lol
 
Feb 3, 2010
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#14
It's only an excuse, what they really mean is "I don’t believe in your god and think you're all loonies and have something better to do".

I agree with you in a small percentage of case, but I think the church has hurt a lot of people and they are jaded. They leave the church and teach their children that Christians talk about love, but are actually judgmental about doctrine and tend to throw the first rock.
 
Feb 3, 2010
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#15
I think there is hypocrisy in churches, but then, whoever said the church is perfect? My church certainly isn’t perfect, in my opinion, but it is a great blessing to me.

Oh there is definitely hypocrisy in the church – hypocrisy is inevitable for people who live by standards. What I am interested in is what the hypocrisy actually bothers outsiders the most? Is it our failure to live up to our moral code? Or, is it our failure to love. Frankly, I think outsiders could care less if we do not live up to our moral code, but despise us for not being the loving, forgiving people the Bible calls us to be, Often we seem more concerned that people have the correct doctrine in their heads, rather than caring for them.
 
Feb 3, 2010
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#16
Doctrine is important.

I agree.

What you believe about theology is more important than your behavior and works.

I disagree – your behavior and works are the homework Jesus is giving you to work out the sanctification of your heart, which is the only thing that truly matters. The Pharisees had a perfect understanding of doctrine and it retarded the sanctification of their hearts – Jesus criticized them for this reason.

I mean.. a person could be living a good moral life.. yet believe Satan is their God. Jehovah's Witnesses are very good with business in general, live clean lives and are good stewards a lot of the time.. but if they reject the deity of Jesus.. their behavior isn't very important.

A good moral life is not going to help you either, unless you are allowing Jesus to work in your heart, regardless of doctrine. I could also make the claim that a person could be living a good moral life and have a theologians understanding of Christianity, but if he is not letting his heart be sanctified by Jesus (learning to love fully), his life is merely a clanging cymbal. Being a Satanist provides no room for sanctification of the heart – it teaches the opposite principle -narcissism.

Behavior is important only when it is the result of relying on the Holy Spirit.. this is intertwined with what you believe theologically anyway. Actions reflecting what you believe.

The idea that good works only proceed from faith is a strictly Protestant doctrine, which reinforces the Protestant habit of being over-focused on the cognitive. I disagree that your thoughts are the sole source of your emotions and behavior, instead all three can act as the source for each other.

So you know I see many Christians post on here about getting on with each other and unifying, but unifying under what teaching? Ecumenicalism? Syncretism truth?

It is interesting that you see things this way. Do you realize the only teaching that truly unifies Catholics is the Eucharist? It is true. The Catholic Church teaches the doctrine outlined in the Catholic Catechism, but when it comes right down to it, people can remain Catholic even if they reject everything, but the Real Presence in the Eucharist. Enforcing the idea that our group is different from every other church – we aren’t catholic we teach the BIBLE, we aren’t catholic, we worship the Lord, not follow traditions of men – is a Protestant ideal. Protestants are terminally other – they define themselves in relation to how effective they have been separating from Catholicism. Every church that is more Catholic then the church you attend is viewed as farther away from the Bible and the teachings of Jesus.

So, to answer your question – Catholicism is extremely diverse, already (a fact that is often criticized by outsiders), however it is also one of the only churches that has remained dynamic, yet true to its teachings. Due to the Protestant tendency of valuing being ‘other’ – ecumenicalism will always be viewed as an attempt to water down doctrine, rather than introducing new ideas – therefore it will always be viewed though suspicious eyes. Although, I think it is a great idea and I do not subscribe to the overblown, fears of doctrinal compromise; I think it will never happen within Protestantism. Asking a Protestant to unite is like asking the US to join the European Union.

But as far as hypocrisy goes, non-Christians are often hypocrites themselves. They ask us to hold to moral integrity, yet not upholding it themselves a lot of the time. So it goes both ways.

But isn’t that like saying, “Homeless people judge us for having houses, yet they aren’t even willing to work!”; not recognizing that those who live in houses are privileged to have homes and are blessed that their hard work actually pays off. The same is true concerning Christians – we are privileged to have Christ in our lives and to have a moral standard and to know that Jesus is working to sanctify our hearts. We should expect non-Christians to hold us to a different standard then themselves.
 

wattie

Senior Member
Feb 24, 2009
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#17
well to begin with I am not protestant. Whatever you may believe.. it is a fact there have been christian churches around that were not part of Catholicism and around before it got establishment through Augustine.

'On this rock I will build my church'

Jesus is talking about the foundation of christianity.. not Peter in this verse. Notice the Greek words in this verse have different words for rock.. one for Peter and one for Jesus. Jesus is effectively talking about Himself in this verse.

So Jesus is the founder of His church.. starting with His disciples and continuing from there to other independent christian churches. So I am neither catholic nor protestant. Jesus ' church not starting at Pentecost.. and Jesus church not being universal.. but local and visible.

Now.. in regards to what I mean by the actions being the result of what you believe.. and that being about theology anyway.. I am not saying that faith in Jesus means someone will produce good works. I am saying if they rely on the Holy Spirit.. that will naturally produce love back at Him.

But this love back to the Holy Spirit.. and relying on the Holy Spirit is completely intertwined with scriptural understanding and life applicaiton of it.

It is about the heart.. you are right.. with the mind also.. both in complete devotion to God.

So I don go for ecumenicism if it means compromising on believing the bible completely.

The unity expoused in the NT is always about local church unity.. unity in the assembly someone attends. It like this for the verses about the church in Ephesus.. Corinth.. etc..

Call for unity on eternal security, assurance of salvation and the deity of Christ in this chat site.. and I'll be all for it. But unity just in the name of not arguing.. no.. not enough for me.

Unity in the body of Christ = equals local assembly unity..with agreement on doctrine and the way they will run their local assembly.. not unity across believers scattered everywhere in the name of washed out truth.

So.. I am not writing this to condemn.. but just a peeve of mine with online chat sites like this.. where it becomes like alot of people's 'church' or primary source for doctrine.. when it should be taken from the assembly they attend for christian fellowship and teaching.
 
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charisenexcelcis

Guest
#18
and Jesus church not being universal.. but local and visible.
I believe that the church is both local-visible and spiritually universal.


So I don go for ecumenicism if it means compromising on believing the bible completely.

The unity expoused in the NT is always about local church unity.. unity in the assembly someone attends. It like this for the verses about the church in Ephesus.. Corinth.. etc..
Local unity is the building block of spiritual universal unity.

Call for unity on eternal security, assurance of salvation and the deity of Christ in this chat site.. and I'll be all for it. But unity just in the name of not arguing.. no.. not enough for me.

Unity in the body of Christ = equals local assembly unity..with agreement on doctrine and the way they will run their local assembly.. not unity across believers scattered everywhere in the name of washed out truth.
If Paul could write from across the world and call believers brother than spiritual unity exists.

So.. I am not writing this to condemn.. but just a peeve of mine with online chat sites like this.. where it becomes like alot of people's 'church' or primary source for doctrine.. when it should be taken from the assembly they attend for christian fellowship and teaching.
I agree with you on the last. A healthy Christian gets his fellowship and primary teaching in the real world.
 
Jan 8, 2009
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#19
Unless your'e a spam bot I assume we are all real people here? Exchanges on forums over the internet is just a faster and more frequent way of communicating ideas and doctrine. The apostle Paul wrote letters from afar, even from prison :D.
 
Feb 3, 2010
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#20
well to begin with I am not protestant. Whatever you may believe.. it is a fact there have been Christian churches around that were not part of Catholicism and around before it got establishment through Augustine.

So the early church was not Protestant or Catholic – but simply Christian; like you?

'On this rock I will build my church'

Jesus is talking about the foundation of Christianity.. not Peter in this verse. Notice the Greek words in this verse have different words for rock.. one for Peter and one for Jesus. Jesus is effectively talking about Himself in this verse.


Is that why He renamed Peter?

So Jesus is the founder of His church.. starting with His disciples and continuing from there to other independent Christian churches. So I am neither catholic nor protestant. Jesus ' church not starting at Pentecost.. and Jesus church not being universal.. but local and visible.

Hmm….so we should only worship in individual, local churches – like the early church?

1.[FONT=&quot] [/FONT] How do we manage the inevitable difference in scripture interpretation between churches?
2.[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]How do we weed out heresy if churches are not connected?
3.[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]Are we supposed to still embrace the Catholic doctrines of the Trinity, Incarnation; and the Protestant doctrines of sola scriptural, sola fide, and sola gratia?
4.[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]What happens when one individual, local church decides it is the only Christian church? And what about the next one? And the next one….and the next one.
5.[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]What happens when individual, local churches that believe they are the only Christians try to convert members of another church that believes it is the only Christian church?

Now.. in regards to what I mean by the actions being the result of what you believe.. and that being about theology anyway.. I am not saying that faith in Jesus means someone will produce good works. I am saying if they rely on the Holy Spirit.. that will naturally produce love back at Him.

I just haven’t found this to be true. In fact, I have seen most convinced Christians as some of the meanest. Well, except for the arrogant theologians, who speak over people’s heads and are not shy about valuing knowledge over sanctification.

But this love back to the Holy Spirit; and relying on the Holy Spirit is completely intertwined with scriptural understanding and life application of it.

I just think it is a chicken/egg argument. It doesn’t matter to me what comes first – as long as our hearts are open to sanctification. Lately, I have been thinking that the Holy Spirit does the sanctifying work in our hearts and we practice it, like homework in our behavior by loving.

It is about the heart.. you are right.. with the mind also.. both in complete devotion to God.

And if we are firing on all cylinders it is reflected in our mind, heart, and behavior. Cognitive dissidence is when one is out of agreement – it is not pleasant.

So I don’t go for ecumenical movement if it advocates compromising on believing the bible completely.

Same here.

The unity espoused in the NT is always about local church unity.. unity in the assembly someone attends. It like this for the verses about the church in Ephesus.. Corinth.. etc..


Umm…..I think it appears that way because each letter is addressed to an individual church, not because Paul was only advocating for unity in only local churches.

Call for unity on eternal security, assurance of salvation and the deity of Christ in this chat site.. and I'll be all for it. But unity just in the name of not arguing.. no.. not enough for me.

It is interesting to me how discussions about religion fuel such anger – it is as if people confuse their thoughts and emotion for their actual beings. We are separate from our thoughts and feelings – if you disagree with one of my ideas; that is fine because I take it for what it is a cognitive disagreement – rather than a personal attack against my very being. Apparently, this method is rare.

Unity in the body of Christ = equals local assembly unity..with agreement on doctrine and the way they will run their local assembly.. not unity across believers scattered everywhere in the name of washed out truth.

Well, I tend to think that folks who oppose the ecumenical movement mistake unity for carbon copy Christianity (wow, I am dating myself!). The Catholic Church is united, but all Catholic members who enjoy thinking have different ideas about doctrine and the Bible – we simply agree on loving God (which includes, but it never limited to the Eucharist), loving ourselves, and loving our neighbor. Doctrinal differences should be given room to exist – simply because you run into another Christian who happens to disagree with you even on important issues – it should not be a threat to your understanding.

So.. I am not writing this to condemn.. but just a peeve of mine with online chat sites like this.. where it becomes like a lot of people's 'church' or primary source for doctrine.. when it should be taken from the assembly they attend for Christian fellowship and teaching.

Now I see what you mean – this is definitely not a substitute for church – it is a place to discuss ideas, not to practice the sanctification of our hearts – that is what church is for.