I was wondering who believes you can get unsaved.

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do you believe you can be unsaved after salvation?


  • Total voters
    37

Cameron143

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Regarding "a list of all the things that one must perform in order to comply with the command to endure to the end": I address this in the Kerygma thread, but it is this: “Accept Christ Jesus as Lord” (as in 2CR 4:5 & CL 2:6).

The main points of Christian orthodoxy implicit in this statement can be explained or elaborated as follows:
  1. There is a/one all-loving and just Lord or God (DT 6:4, JN 3:16, 2THS 1:6), who is both able (2TM 1:12) and willing (1TM 2:3-4) to provide all morally accountable human beings salvation or heaven—a wonderful life full of love, joy and peace forever.
  2. Human beings are selfish or sinful (RM 3:23, 2TM 3:2-4, CL 3:5), miserable (GL 5:19-21), and hopeless (EPH 2:12) when they reject God’s salvation or DOD (JN 3:18).
  3. Jesus is God’s Messiah/Christ or the way (means of providing salvation) that God has chosen (JN 3:16, ACTS 16:30-31, PHP 2:9-11), although pre-NT truthseekers could/can learn a proto-gospel (vice the full NT Gospel).
  4. Thus, every person who hears the NT Gospel needs to accept God in Jesus as Christ/Messiah the Lord or Supreme Commander (LK 2:11, JN 14:6, ACTS 16:31), which means trying to obey His commandment to love one another (MT 22:37-40, JN 13:35, RM 13:9)—forever (MT 10:22, PS 113:2).
  5. Then God’s Holy Spirit will establish a saving relationship with those who freely accept Him (RV 3:20) that will eventually achieve heaven when by means of persevering in learning God’s Word everyone cooperates fully with His will (RM 8:6-17, GL 6:7-9, EPH 1:13-14, HB 10:36, 12:1, JM 1:2-4).
When you start making lists you place the emphasis for salvation and its maintenance on man. We become Pharisees and clean up the outside and fool ourselves into thinking that if we can only accomplish a list of prerequisites we are okay and even pleasing before God. This is false religion that has us relating to the law at the expense of relating to God Himself. Since life consists in knowing God and Christ, we end up with a form of godliness without the power of God at work in our lives.
This is my concern. This, and the fact that God has told us that the One who begins the good work in us will continue until the day of Jesus Christ. God not only saves us, but preserves us as well.
 
Oct 12, 2017
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can we keep the arguing down?
I am also looking for biblical quotes. not convictions.
I fall firmly into believing that you can get unsaved, because I did choose not to accept christ. as a concious decision. like, i thought, i dont want it for myself. maybe someday. i believe it to be truth, but i do not accept the truth. I still care about others being and getting saved, but i myself do not want ti.
until I got saved, and truly believe his love now.
You are reporting on an imagined mind set?
It's not you whom you are describing?

I have news for you. If you believed in one second in time? You can not undo it.

Sorry.... you are just not important to convince otherwise.
For you must work out YOUR OWN salvation in fear and trembling. Philippians 2:12
Not have others work it out for you...


Acts 16:30-31

And he brought them out and said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?”

So they said, “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ,
and you will be saved, you and your household.”



.
 
Nov 1, 2024
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I have news for you. If you believed in one second in time? You can not undo it.
Simply believing doesn't save a person. It is written that with the heart one believes into righteousness, and with the mouth acknowledgement is made into salvation

For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Romans 10:10
 
Oct 19, 2024
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When you start making lists you place the emphasis for salvation and its maintenance on man. We become Pharisees and clean up the outside and fool ourselves into thinking that if we can only accomplish a list of prerequisites we are okay and even pleasing before God. This is false religion that has us relating to the law at the expense of relating to God Himself. Since life consists in knowing God and Christ, we end up with a form of godliness without the power of God at work in our lives.
This is my concern. This, and the fact that God has told us that the One who begins the good work in us will continue until the day of Jesus Christ. God not only saves us, but preserves us as well.
Please explain any errors you see in the list of points elaborating on "Accept Christ Jesus as Lord".

BTW, not sure I agree with every item in your list of sentences.
 

Cameron143

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Please explain any errors you see in the list of points elaborating on "Accept Christ Jesus as Lord".

BTW, not sure I agree with every item in your list of sentences.
Sometimes it's a manner of semantics or word choice. For example, Jesus is Lord. Our "acceptance" has no bearing on this reality. It is a simple and true declaration. When the gospel truth is declared and the Father gives revelation, an individual comes to faith and is saved. This is the way Jesus declared He would build His church...Matthew 16: 13-18. According to John 1:13, this is accomplished not through the endeavor of man, but by God.
Thus, accepting Christ is a misnomer in terms of salvation.
 
Oct 19, 2024
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Sometimes it's a manner of semantics or word choice. For example, Jesus is Lord. Our "acceptance" has no bearing on this reality. It is a simple and true declaration. When the gospel truth is declared and the Father gives revelation, an individual comes to faith and is saved. This is the way Jesus declared He would build His church...Matthew 16: 13-18. According to John 1:13, this is accomplished not through the endeavor of man, but by God.
Thus, accepting Christ is a misnomer in terms of salvation.
Okay, may I take your words to mean that you see no errors in mine?

If not then please be more specific about what you find objectionable.
 
Jul 3, 2015
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Shedding blood and providing a covering aren't foreshadows; they are figures and types. God actually shed blood. This was in anticipation of the blood Christ would shed. He made a covering. This is in anticipation of the righteousness that Christ would robe His people in.
But God actually sacrificed an animal. He did that for someone. For God to continue in relationship with Adam and Eve, He needed to provide a means of forgiveness. And there is no remission of sin without the shedding of blood. I'm guessing that sacrifice was for Adam and Eve since they are the ones He covered. This also meets the 2nd requirement for God to continue in relationship with Adam and Eve: the provision of righteousness. Not only had Adam and Eve sinned, they had also failed to meet the righteousness required in the commandment they broke.
So I find in the actions of God a provided salvation, as well as a typology of salvation, and not simply a prefiguring.
You originally said Jesus shed His blood to cover Adam and Eve when an animal was killed
to provide their skins. Now you are changing it to say something else. The animal sacrifice
was FORESHADOWING Jesus' death on the cross. First you say they are figures then you say
they are not. Gosh. I'll just stick with what I said. Types and figures foreshadow.
 

Cameron143

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You originally said Jesus shed His blood to cover Adam and Eve when an animal was killed
to provide their skins. Now you are changing it to say something else. The animal sacrifice
was FORESHADOWING Jesus' death on the cross. First you say they are figures then you say
they are not. Gosh. I'll just stick with what I said. Types and figures foreshadow.
Well this simply proves I don't always do a good job of explaining things. So I'll try again.
Jesus is spoken of as the Lamb slain before the foundation of the world. This is because God the Father covenanted with God the Son prior to creation that Jesus would offer His blood to redeem fallen mankind. Because the prescribed will of God is immutable and will of certainty come to pass, God often speaks of things that have yet to occur as though they have already come to pass. This can be considered more fully if you like.
Because of this, and because God has chosen to give revelation gradually throughout history, we can look back at history from a position of greater revelation and uncover things that the original audience may not have grasped.
So looking back at Genesis, sin,and God's actions in response to sin, we have a more informed understanding. While I do believe the death of Christ is both prophesied in the words of God and His actions, thus, foreshadowing the death of Christ, they also typify the death of Christ and present a real life parable of redemption. But because it is an actual account, it also not only typifies salvation, it actually provides salvation. The blood shed was shed on behalf of Adam and Eve. The coverings made were given to cover Adam and Eve. So God was not only foreshadowing the death of Christ, prefiguring and typifying His death, but He was also actually saving Adam and Eve.
This is what I so clumsily was trying to say.
 
Aug 25, 2024
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You are so right. See my post where I give 22 scriptures from all over the New Testament that teach that a saved person can be lost.
That's not true. There's a difference between what scripture actually teaches and errantly thinking you know they say that we can lose Salvation.
We can't.
Ever.
 

Cameron143

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Okay, may I take your words to mean that you see no errors in mine?

If not then please be more specific about what you find objectionable.
I just explained how inaccurately the phrase " acceptacting Jesus as Lord" describes salvation and why. I also established that salvation is a work of God by the will of God accomplished by the revelation of God. Further, this forgiveness of God is not predicated upon any action of man but on the life, death, and resurrection of Christ, who Himself lived a perfect life to provide the righteousness necessary for salvation, as well as the blood sacrifice necessary for God's wrath to be assuaged that we might be reconciled to Him.
When God does give revelation to an individual, there are many things that result in the individual and many responses that transpire. But all are the results of the work of God and attend salvation, yet are not its cause.
So in short, salvation requires the works of God, not the works of men. The responses you mention do attend salvation, but do not cause salvation. Otherwise, salvation is not of God, and consequently, not of grace. Faith is not actually in Christ, but in doing the right things to be saved.
 
Oct 19, 2024
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I just explained how inaccurately the phrase " acceptacting Jesus as Lord" describes salvation and why. I also established that salvation is a work of God by the will of God accomplished by the revelation of God. Further, this forgiveness of God is not predicated upon any action of man but on the life, death, and resurrection of Christ, who Himself lived a perfect life to provide the righteousness necessary for salvation, as well as the blood sacrifice necessary for God's wrath to be assuaged that we might be reconciled to Him.
When God does give revelation to an individual, there are many things that result in the individual and many responses that transpire. But all are the results of the work of God and attend salvation, yet are not its cause.
So in short, salvation requires the works of God, not the works of men. The responses you mention do attend salvation, but do not cause salvation. Otherwise, salvation is not of God, and consequently, not of grace. Faith is not actually in Christ, but in doing the right things to be saved.
Regarding "I just explained how inaccurately the phrase " accepting Jesus as Lord" describes salvation and why."

Not inaccurately, but incompletely, and the words "ask... seek... and knock" are even more succinct, but you still did not explain how the points I provided are problematic. Perhaps it would be simpler to take them one at a time. What is wrong with:
  1. There is a/one all-loving and just Lord or God (DT 6:4, JN 3:16, 2THS 1:6), who is both able (2TM 1:12) and willing (1TM 2:3-4) to provide all morally accountable human beings salvation or heaven—a wonderful life full of love, joy and peace forever.
Please cite Scripture to back up your judgments.
 
Feb 18, 2019
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If only everyone had perfect understanding like you.[/QUOTE hmm well keep on working on your relationship with the lord he will show you the truth i hope i keep learning these truths so i can explain them to the ones with little faith. not saying anyone in particular
 

Cameron143

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Mar 1, 2022
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Regarding "I just explained how inaccurately the phrase " accepting Jesus as Lord" describes salvation and why."

Not inaccurately, but incompletely, and the words "ask... seek... and knock" are even more succinct, but you still did not explain how the points I provided are problematic. Perhaps it would be simpler to take them one at a time. What is wrong with:
  1. There is a/one all-loving and just Lord or God (DT 6:4, JN 3:16, 2THS 1:6), who is both able (2TM 1:12) and willing (1TM 2:3-4) to provide all morally accountable human beings salvation or heaven—a wonderful life full of love, joy and peace forever.
Please cite Scripture to back up your judgments.
The fact that people exist in hell means God isn't willing to save everyone. Clearly He has the ability, so either God cannot fulfill His will, or will here expresses desire or preference.
Since Daniel 4:35 says God performs His will and that none are able to keep His will from coming to pass in both heaven and earth, 1 Timothy 2:3-4 cannot mean His will as you have explained it.
Also, as God takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked and there is rejoicing over lost sinners being found, these together do meet the qualifications of a God who prefers salvation over death.
 
Feb 18, 2019
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In regard to Hebrews 6:4-6, once enlightened - which means to bring to light, to shed light upon or to cause light to shine upon some object, in the sense of illuminating it. John 1:9 describes Jesus, the "true Light," giving light "to every man," but this cannot mean the light of salvation, because not every man is saved. The light either leads to acceptance of Jesus Christ or produces condemnation in those who reject the light.

In regard to partakers of the Holy Spirit, the word translated “partaker” can certainly refer to a saving partaking in Christ, as we read in Hebrews 3:14, yet it can also refer to a less than saving association or participation. See Luke 5:7 and Hebrews 1:9 - "comrades, companions," which describes one who shares with someone else as an associate in an undertaking. These Hebrews who fell away had obviously in some aspect shared in the ministry of the Holy Spirit, but in what way? There are other ministries of the Holy Spirit which precede receiving the indwelling and sealing of the Holy Spirit, which only genuine believers receive. (Ephesians 1:13)

Those who fall away absolutely could have been affiliated closely with the fellowship of the church. Such people certainly may have experienced sorrow for sin, heard and understood the gospel and have given some assent to it and have become associated with the work of the Holy Spirit while around believers and have tasted the heavenly gift and the powers of the age to come. They may have been exposed to the true preaching of the word of God yet have simply tasted and stopped there. People who have experienced these things may be genuine Christians, yet this alone is not enough to give conclusive evidence that the beginning stages of conversion (repentance unto life, regeneration, salvation, justification, etc..) have taken place for those who fell away. The experiences in Hebrews 6:4-6 are all preliminary to those decisive beginning stages of becoming a Christian, yet those who draw back to perdition after receiving the 'knowledge' of the truth do not believe to the saving of the soul. (Hebrews 10:39)

These certain individuals who fall short of obtaining salvation certainly may have become partakers of the Holy Spirit in his pre-salvation ministry, convicting of sin and righteousness and judgment to come by tasting the good word of God and temporarily responding to His drawing power which is intended to ultimately lead sinners to Christ, yet the writer of Hebrews does not use conclusive terms that these individuals were "indwelled by the Holy Spirit" or "sealed by the Holy Spirit." Genuine believers who have believed the gospel are sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession/unto the day of redemption. (Ephesians 1:13-14; 4:30)

In regard to "tasted" the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, they may have tasted in such a way as to give them a distinct impression of what was tasted, yet they still fell away. Inherent in the idea of tasting is the fact that one might or might not decide to accept what is tasted. For example, the same Greek word (geuomai) is used in Matthew 27:34 to say that those crucifying Jesus "offered him wine to drink, mingled with gall; but when he tasted it, he would not drink it." We do not merely taste, but drink into one Spirit. (1 Corinthians 12:13)

In regard to renew them again unto repentance, this does not specify whether the repentance was merely outward or genuine accompanied by saving faith. They have in some sense "repented," there may be sorrow for sins and an attempt to turn from them (moral self-reformation) that non-believers can experience. There is repentance that falls short of salvation, which is clear from Hebrews 12:7 and the reference to Esau, as well as the repentance of Judas Iscariot in Matthew 27:3. Paul refers to a repentance “without regret that leads to salvation,” which shows there is a repentance that does not lead to salvation. As with “belief/faith”, so too with “repentance,” we must always distinguish between what is substantial and results in salvation and what is spurious. Renew them again "unto salvation" would be conclusive evidence for the argument of a loss of salvation.

In Hebrews 6:7-8, we read - For the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessing from God; but if it bears thorns and briars, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned. In this metaphor relating to agriculture, those who receive final judgment are compared to land that bears no vegetation or useful fruit, but rather bears thorns and thistles. We see in scripture where good fruit is the evidence of spiritual life and a lack of good fruit is a sign of false believers (Matthew 3:8-10; 7:15-20; 12:33-35) so we have an indication that the trustworthy evidence of one's spiritual condition is the fruit they bear (whether good or bad), suggesting that those who fell away in Hebrews 6 were not genuine believers.

*Verse 9 sums it up for me. The writer is speaking to those truly saved (refers to them as BELOVED). He says that even though he speaks like this concerning THOSE types of people, He is convinced of better things concerning YOU. Things that ACCOMPANY SALVATION. Thorns and briars and falling away permanently do not accompany salvation and are not fruits worthy of authentic repentance.

It's generally stated by those who believe that salvation can be lost that it can be regained again, yet that would not be the case here if the writer of Hebrews was teaching a loss of salvation. I have heard certain individuals state they know someone who was truly saved, but later lost their salvation, yet only God truly knows the heart of individuals. Certain people "on the surface" may do a good job of looking like the real deal for a while (like Judas Iscariot, who was an unbelieving, unclean devil who betrayed Jesus - John 6:64-71; 13:10-11) yet to the other 11 disciples, he looked like the real deal, but Jesus knew his heart. There are genuine Christians and there are "nominal" Christians. There are genuine believers and there are make believers and it's not always easy to tell them apart.
For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened. what does this mean. why you over look this?
 
Feb 18, 2019
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This is "type 2 works salvation" or salvation by works at the back door. In regard to Hebrews 12:14, those who teach salvation by works prefer the translations which read, "without holiness," no man shall see the Lord. The implication is if you are not sufficiently living a "holy enough" life (which also implies works righteousness) then you won't be saved. The NASB reads - Pursue peace with all men, and the sanctification without which no one will see the Lord. To be sanctified is to be "set apart/made holy." Without justification, there is no sanctification.

Those who are sanctified have been "set apart" or "made holy" in standing before God positionally in Christ. 1 Corinthians 6:11 - Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God. These people will see the Lord.

In the very next verse (Hebrews 12:15) we read - See to it that no one comes short of the grace of God.. (NASB) The ESV reads - ..fails to obtain the grace of God. That puts things into perspective here.
your wrong sir read these scriptures from the beginning of the chapters and understand what its saying.
 
Oct 19, 2024
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The fact that people exist in hell means God isn't willing to save everyone. Clearly He has the ability, so either God cannot fulfill His will, or will here expresses desire or preference.
Since Daniel 4:35 says God performs His will and that none are able to keep His will from coming to pass in both heaven and earth, 1 Timothy 2:3-4 cannot mean His will as you have explained it.
Also, as God takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked and there is rejoicing over lost sinners being found, these together do meet the qualifications of a God who prefers salvation over death.
OR, it means that God wills to save/elect only those who exercise the freewill (indicated by DT 30:19, MT 23:37, etc.) to cooperate with the plan of salvation that He predestined. Thus, 2TM 2:3-4 CAN mean exactly what it says. Understanding this involves recognizing and harmonizing God's prescriptive and permissive will.
 
Apr 7, 2014
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For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened. what does this mean. why you over look this?
I overlooked nothing and already thoroughly explained this in post #278. Did you read my post or just skim over it?
 
Apr 7, 2014
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your wrong sir read these scriptures from the beginning of the chapters and understand what its saying.
I read scripture in context and properly harmonized scripture with scripture before reaching my conclusion on doctrine. I see that you have no rebuttal. You just simply disagree.