I would like to Dialog with a Seventh-day Adventist

[And]

May I ask Why seventh day adventists allow people to divorce and remarry and still remain in good standing in their church when in Revelation the mark of the beast are the daughters who drink of the wine of fornication?

(Mat 19:9 KJV) And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery.


(Mat 19:18 KJV) He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,


(Mark 10:11 KJV) And he saith unto them, Whosoever shall put away his wife, and marry another, committeth adultery against her.


(Mark 10:12 KJV) And if a woman shall put away her husband, and be married to another, she committeth adultery.


(Mark 10:19 KJV) Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Defraud not, Honour thy father and mother.


(Luke 16:18 KJV) Whosoever putteth away his wife, and marrieth another, committeth adultery: and whosoever marrieth her that is put away from her husband committeth adultery.


(Luke 18:20 KJV) Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother.

I thought seventh day adventists believe in the ten commandments and number seven still applies?

 

[And]

Also does your church admit that it is the church of Laodicea?
I heard from someone that you call yourselves Laodicea.
that would be a name I would not like to have on my church concerning the promise that Laodicea will definitely not make it to heaven...

these are two problems that have kept me from going to that church...

I think reading and following the bible is most importatnt, and each should be able to worship as they wish
so staying home and worshipping is a good option once you find out that you need to be reverant...

 

[And]

A friend of mine says that in the sda church they stand up in prayer...
Now according to the bible, Worship consists of KNEELING and worshipping

Psa 95:6 O come, let us worship and bow down: let us kneel before the LORD our maker.
Psa 95:7 For he is our God; and we are the people of his pasture, and the sheep of his hand. To day if ye will hear his voice,
Psa 95:8 Harden not your heart, as in the provocation, and as in the day of temptation in the wilderness:
Psa 95:9 When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my work.
Psa 95:10 Forty years long was I grieved with this generation, and said, It is a people that do err in their heart, and they have not known my ways:
Psa 95:11 Unto whom I sware in my wrath that they should not enter into my rest.


so if you in church do not kneel down, you cannot enter into his sabbath rest.

It is good you say you keep Sabbath, but desecrating it in standing prayer makes it all moot


Psa 103:1 A Psalm of David. Bless the LORD, O my soul: and all that is within me, bless his holy name.
Psa 103:2 Bless the LORD, O my soul, and forget not all his benefits:
Psa 103:3 Who forgiveth all thine iniquities; who healeth all thy diseases;


now looking up BLESS the DEFINITION is KNEEL DOWN AND WORSHIP

so the verse really reads like this:

Psa 103:1 A Psalm of David. Kneel down and worship the LORD, O my soul: and all that is within me, kneel down and adore his holy name.
Psa 103:2 Kneel down and worship and adore the LORD, O my soul, and forget not all his benefits:
Psa 103:3 Who forgiveth all thine iniquities; who healeth all thy diseases;

now bless is in the bible hundreds of times

and it always means to KNEEL DOWN in the sanctuary...

Jesus kneeled in prayer and so did paul

Luke 22:41 And he was withdrawn from them about a stone's cast, and kneeled down, and prayed,

Acts 7:60 And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep.


Acts 9:40 But Peter put them all forth, and kneeled down, and prayed; and turning him to the body said, Tabitha, arise. And she opened her eyes: and when she saw Peter, she sat up.

Acts 20:36 And when he had thus spoken, he kneeled down, and prayed with them all.


Acts 21:5 And when we had accomplished those days, we departed and went our way; and they all brought us on our way, with wives and children, till we were out of the city: and we kneeled down on the shore, and prayed.


so it is very clear that
reverence and worship is kneeling in prayer


who stands in prayer?

PHARISEES

Luke 18:11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.

 

[And]

1. Not keeping the Sabbath
2. irreverance during prayer
3. Adultery fornication babylon

three strikes you are out

I would home church, stay away from the confused who dont follow the bible


do you have a committee that can vote against the bible?

when they dont like what the bible says they hold a meeting and the coimittee decides its of to not follow the bible

like Jesus said do not go to war, well they blessed people to go to world war two and even magnify people who do like desmond T doss and others

really a non biblical church

unless of course I am wrong

since I dont go there maybe you can assure me that

1. You always kneel in prayer in the temple
2. You disfrllowshippeople as soon as they divorce
and you
3. disfellowship anyone going to the army or poice force.


let me know if that is the case and I will reconsider things...
until then
stay away from confusion and expeciallly form any church calling themselves laodicea/

 

[And]

The silence is deafening.

 

[Jackson123]

Here is another point of difference. I hold that the belief in a soul separate from the body is a result of the accretion of Greek dichotomy into Christian doctrine. Genesis 2:7 says, "And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul."

So, dust of the ground + breath of life = living soul. There is no room here for a spirit form that leaves the body at death. When there is no more breath in the body, the soul is dead.

So, hell only burns as long as there are bodies in it that need to be burned. When all the material has been burned, the fire dies. Thus, for me, hell cannot be eternal.

Brother gamlet.

The body without soul is dead. But the soul not dead.

Do you read the story of Lazarus and the rich man?

Lazarus die and his soul go to Abraham blossom

Lazarus body in the grave not go with his soul.

So you don't believe in the bible anymore brother?

Ho about the member of seventh Day Adventist who die of fire. The body totally burn. Is his soul die? He is good member.

 

[ob77]

I've heard others on cc say that too. Not sure what denomination..they said the lake of fire was for satan and his demons and not people. I can't say I know whether people would burn up and be done, or if their new bodies would remain forever in that place....I don't really want to know, I'd rather concentrate on staying out!!

The lake of fire is something that will exist for the short time that it is needed. It is for the complete destruction of spiritual beings. Satan and all that that follow him will die that second and final death. Satan is the son of perdition, and perdition means to perish, from within and from without, to turn to ash. They will be gone as well as any memory of them. The lake of fire will be sealed over and gone. One cannot have Heaven if one is thinking about those who perished. They will perish, and that will be that. We will no longer have any link to them whatsoever, not in a historical context, nor in our memories. Heaven will be Heaven. This is supposition on my part: That one cannot have Heaven, if one dwells on those that one knew at one time, that did not make it, for you would always long for someone who perished, if that were possible. I believe IF this scenario exists, it is in our best interests that our memories are wiped clean and we start anew.

 

[gamlet]

May I ask Why seventh day adventists allow people to divorce and remarry and still remain in good standing in their church when in Revelation the mark of the beast are the daughters who drink of the wine of fornication?

(Mat 19:9 KJV) And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery.


(Mat 19:18 KJV) He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,


(Mark 10:11 KJV) And he saith unto them, Whosoever shall put away his wife, and marry another, committeth adultery against her.


(Mark 10:12 KJV) And if a woman shall put away her husband, and be married to another, she committeth adultery.


(Mark 10:19 KJV) Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Defraud not, Honour thy father and mother.


(Luke 16:18 KJV) Whosoever putteth away his wife, and marrieth another, committeth adultery: and whosoever marrieth her that is put away from her husband committeth adultery.


(Luke 18:20 KJV) Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother.

I thought seventh day adventists believe in the ten commandments and number seven still applies?

Unfortunately I cannot give a valid reply to your query because divorce has not been legalized in our country (Philippines) so we have no divorced Seventh-day Adventists here, at least, none that I know of.

 

[gamlet]

Also does your church admit that it is the church of Laodicea?
I heard from someone that you call yourselves Laodicea.
that would be a name I would not like to have on my church concerning the promise that Laodicea will definitely not make it to heaven...

these are two problems that have kept me from going to that church...

I think reading and following the bible is most importatnt, and each should be able to worship as they wish
so staying home and worshipping is a good option once you find out that you need to be reverant...

According to the interpretation of Revelations that most Seventh-day Adventists subscribe to, the seven churches represent both literal churches that existed during John's time and a history of the whole church, consecutively, with Ephesus representing the Apostolic church and the Laodicea representing the church before Jesus' Second Coming. Laodicea is composed of two words: laos- people and dikea-judgment. So Laodicea would mean people under judgment which is fitting since the judgment-Second Coming will occur during their time.

I agree with you that reading and following the Bible is important and that each should be able to worship as they wish. But there is a reason that God called people together into the church. Fellowship is meant for people to be able to strengthen and encourage each other. When people worship together, pray together, study the Bible together I would think that a higher degree of closeness to God would be felt rather than if these were done alone. Although there are times when these should indeed be accomplished on your own.

 

[gamlet]

A friend of mine says that in the sda church they stand up in prayer...
Now according to the bible, Worship consists of KNEELING and worshipping

Psa 95:6 O come, let us worship and bow down: let us kneel before the LORD our maker.
Psa 95:7 For he is our God; and we are the people of his pasture, and the sheep of his hand. To day if ye will hear his voice,
Psa 95:8 Harden not your heart, as in the provocation, and as in the day of temptation in the wilderness:
Psa 95:9 When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my work.
Psa 95:10 Forty years long was I grieved with this generation, and said, It is a people that do err in their heart, and they have not known my ways:
Psa 95:11 Unto whom I sware in my wrath that they should not enter into my rest.


so if you in church do not kneel down, you cannot enter into his sabbath rest.

It is good you say you keep Sabbath, but desecrating it in standing prayer makes it all moot


Psa 103:1 A Psalm of David. Bless the LORD, O my soul: and all that is within me, bless his holy name.
Psa 103:2 Bless the LORD, O my soul, and forget not all his benefits:
Psa 103:3 Who forgiveth all thine iniquities; who healeth all thy diseases;


now looking up BLESS the DEFINITION is KNEEL DOWN AND WORSHIP

so the verse really reads like this:

Psa 103:1 A Psalm of David. Kneel down and worship the LORD, O my soul: and all that is within me, kneel down and adore his holy name.
Psa 103:2 Kneel down and worship and adore the LORD, O my soul, and forget not all his benefits:
Psa 103:3 Who forgiveth all thine iniquities; who healeth all thy diseases;

now bless is in the bible hundreds of times

and it always means to KNEEL DOWN in the sanctuary...

Jesus kneeled in prayer and so did paul

Luke 22:41 And he was withdrawn from them about a stone's cast, and kneeled down, and prayed,

Acts 7:60 And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep.


Acts 9:40 But Peter put them all forth, and kneeled down, and prayed; and turning him to the body said, Tabitha, arise. And she opened her eyes: and when she saw Peter, she sat up.

Acts 20:36 And when he had thus spoken, he kneeled down, and prayed with them all.


Acts 21:5 And when we had accomplished those days, we departed and went our way; and they all brought us on our way, with wives and children, till we were out of the city: and we kneeled down on the shore, and prayed.


so it is very clear that
reverence and worship is kneeling in prayer


who stands in prayer?

PHARISEES

Luke 18:11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.

We use all positions: standing, kneeling, sitting when praying. Now, I believe that the position is a secondary consideration in prayer. I believe that if a person were sincere in his prayers, God gladly listens to him. There are also many in our church who because of sickness or age cannot kneel. We do not discourage them from praying.

 

[gamlet]

The silence is deafening.

I'm sorry. I was away for some time.

 

[Karraster]

I'm sorry. I was away for some time.

Hi brother, looks like And got banned.

I agree, true followers of Messiah should be encouraging each other and in fellowship.

 

[gamlet]

1. Not keeping the Sabbath
2. irreverance during prayer
3. Adultery fornication babylon

three strikes you are out

I would home church, stay away from the confused who dont follow the bible


do you have a committee that can vote against the bible?

when they dont like what the bible says they hold a meeting and the coimittee decides its of to not follow the bible

like Jesus said do not go to war, well they blessed people to go to world war two and even magnify people who do like desmond T doss and others

really a non biblical church

unless of course I am wrong

since I dont go there maybe you can assure me that

1. You always kneel in prayer in the temple
2. You disfrllowshippeople as soon as they divorce
and you
3. disfellowship anyone going to the army or poice force.


let me know if that is the case and I will reconsider things...
until then
stay away from confusion and expeciallly form any church calling themselves laodicea/

What do you mean by 1. Not keeping the Sabbath? We believe that the seventh day--Saturday is the Sabbath. We worship God on that day from sundown Friday to sundown Saturday according to the reckoning of the day in Genesis 1. Everyone seems to think that they are the ones following the Bible while others are not. We must understand that each person or group can have his own interpretation of the Bible and have difference on how they apply it. I applaud your sincerity in trying to follow the Bible as you understand it. I just hope that you would have the openness to listen to others who are also trying to follow the Bible as they understand it. Immediately categorizing others as at fault because they don't agree with you springs from the assumption that you can't be wrong. As a wise person said: "Certitude is not the sphere of human beings."

 

[gamlet]

Brother gamlet.

The body without soul is dead. But the soul not dead.

Do you read the story of Lazarus and the rich man?

Lazarus die and his soul go to Abraham blossom

Lazarus body in the grave not go with his soul.

So you don't believe in the bible anymore brother?

Ho about the member of seventh Day Adventist who die of fire. The body totally burn. Is his soul die? He is good member.

What do you think of the following verses from Ecclesiastes 9:

"For the living know that they will die,
but the dead know nothing; (verse 5)

Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with all your might, for in the realm of the dead,where you are going, there is neither working nor planning nor knowledge nor wisdom. (verse 10)


Their love, their hate
and their jealousy have long since vanished;
never again will they have a part
in anything that happens under the sun. (verse 6)

How would you harmonize what these verses say about the dead with that of the parable of Lazarus?

 

[gamlet]

Hi brother, looks like And got banned.

I agree, true followers of Messiah should be encouraging each other and in fellowship.

Oh, really? That's too bad because some of his questions were legitimate.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings gamlet,

Some years ago I was invited to attend a Daniel Seminar series at a nearby SDA Church. When we considered Daniel 2 the following verses were considered.
Daniel 2:35 (KJV): Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth.
Daniel 2:44 (KJV): And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.
I understand that SDAs believe that when Jesus returns the earth will be desolate for 1000 years, and yet the above seems to indicate that when Jesus returns the Kingdom of God will be established upon the earth for the 1000 years.

Also the following seems to agree that when Jesus returns it will not be a time of burning up the earth, but times of restoration and refreshing.
Acts 3:19-21 (KJV): 19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; 20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: 21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Jackson123]

What do you think of the following verses from Ecclesiastes 9:

"For the living know that they will die,
but the dead know nothing; (verse 5)

Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with all your might, for in the realm of the dead,where you are going, there is neither working nor planning nor knowledge nor wisdom. (verse 10)


Their love, their hate
and their jealousy have long since vanished;
never again will they have a part
in anything that happens under the sun. (verse 6)

How would you harmonize what these verses say about the dead with that of the parable of Lazarus?

To me, eclesiastes say the dead no nothing in earthly perspective. he doesn't know what going on in the world, he doesn't know if the gas price up or down anymore.

Lazarus parable is talking in spiritual perspective.

But a lot of verse talking about soul. If the living not accept the Lord, they soul go to hell for ever and ever.

 

[gamlet]

Greetings gamlet,

Some years ago I was invited to attend a Daniel Seminar series at a nearby SDA Church. When we considered Daniel 2 the following verses were considered.
Daniel 2:35 (KJV): Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth.
Daniel 2:44 (KJV): And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.
I understand that SDAs believe that when Jesus returns the earth will be desolate for 1000 years, and yet the above seems to indicate that when Jesus returns the Kingdom of God will be established upon the earth for the 1000 years.

Also the following seems to agree that when Jesus returns it will not be a time of burning up the earth, but times of restoration and refreshing.
Acts 3:19-21 (KJV): 19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; 20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: 21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

Kind regards
Trevor

All these scriptures present partial pictures. You have to bring together all pertinent verses dealing on a theme to get the whole picture. From his point of view, Daniel saw one coming. Actually, Jesus comes to the earth three times. The first time, he was born as a babe in Bethlehem. The second is before the 1,000 years when the saved will be translated to heaven and the wicked remain in the earth dead. The third will be at the end of the 1,000 years when the judgment of the lake of fire will happen and after that the restoration of the earth.

I think the term "setting up the kingdom" could be used to refer to all three comings because they are all part of this process.

 

[gamlet]

To me, eclesiastes say the dead no nothing in earthly perspective. he doesn't know what going on in the world, he doesn't know if the gas price up or down anymore.

Lazarus parable is talking in spiritual perspective.

But a lot of verse talking about soul. If the living not accept the Lord, they soul go to hell for ever and ever.

Ecclesiastes presents a discourse about the state of the dead. So I think we'll have to interpret these words literally. the dead have no contact with the living. They are physically, mentally and emotionally inactive.

The Lazarus story is a parable. A parable teaches one lesson but it is not necessarily a true story. The dualism (body and soul) in the parable is an accretion of Greek thought. I believe that Jesus was making use of the thought prevailing in his time to teach spiritual truth. Regarding this spiritual truth, we'd have to consider the literary context. The adjoining account in Luke 16 is the story of the shrewd manager, which also doesn't need to be a true story. This story deals with the attitude towards money (Luke 16:13). I would think that the parable of Lazarus should be interpreted in a similar vein.

Now, about these other verses that talk about the soul or spirit of the dead communicating with the living, please mention them to me.

 

[Elizabeth619]

Ecclesiastes presents a discourse about the state of the dead. So I think we'll have to interpret these words literally. the dead have no contact with the living. They are physically, mentally and emotionally inactive.

The Lazarus story is a parable. A parable teaches one lesson but it is not necessarily a true story. The dualism (body and soul) in the parable is an accretion of Greek thought. I believe that Jesus was making use of the thought prevailing in his time to teach spiritual truth. Regarding this spiritual truth, we'd have to consider the literary context. The adjoining account in Luke 16 is the story of the shrewd manager, which also doesn't need to be a true story. This story deals with the attitude towards money (Luke 16:13). I would think that the parable of Lazarus should be interpreted in a similar vein.

Now, about these other verses that talk about the soul or spirit of the dead communicating with the living, please mention them to me.

How were mediums able to contact the dead if it wasn't possible? Why did God allow Saul to speak to a medium, and then be rebuked by a dead guy? IF something is impossible to do then there is no need to make it forbidden. Looks to me like souls aren't sleeping. Evidently the evil can conjure them up, at least in the OT they could