If the Law Protected the Jews . . .

[FollowerofShiloh]

I absolutely love this question! My friend, I have been scouring the Bible in a timeline, chronological order for years searching for this question (and many others, of course). I have only been studying the Story of God in this way for about five years, I believe, so my conclusions are still developing.

Thus far, I am able to determine that the answer lies within Chapters 1 and 3 of Ephesians, where Paul talks about the hidden, Eternal, Mysterious Plan of God, a Plan that has been in place since the beginning. Check this out . . . this is mind-boggling (as these words take us deep, deep into history before the Universe was created).

Ephesians 3:9-11 NLT - "I was chosen to explain to everyone this mysterious plan that God, the Creator of all things, had kept secret from the beginning. God's purpose in all this was to use the church to display his wisdom in its rich variety to all the unseen rulers and authorities in the heavenly places. This was his eternal plan, which he carried out through Christ Jesus our Lord."

THAT . . . is unbelievable. If we take this concept above, highlighted in red, and apply it to the full Story of God, the implications are staggering. Yes, I am saying that we are something like a living play for the rulers and authorities in Heaven to watch and marvel over. Why? Because the Lord has a pre-written Plan, and it is being executed . . . perfectly. We are on full display to the Rulers and Authorities of the Heavenly Realms.

The Law: Part of God's Plan was to take the very small Nation of the Jews and demonstrate His Raw, almighty power through them (and others, like Pharaoh in Egypt). This Plan involves giving the Jews the Law as a protective guardian, as Paul teaches. This Law, however, would only last until Christ. When Christ fulfilled the Law, it was no longer considered an option, lest the torture and death of Christ be rendered useless.

If we study the full Story of God, the Bible in a timeline, chronological way, we will understand the Law (as much as the Lord reveals) much better than otherwise. It is simply a part of the Plan of God, where He chose to give the Blessed Jews a most Holy, and beautiful Law, such as that of Moses. Power . . . this is about Power! God did all that He said He would do through His Covenant with king David. Jesus Christ finally came as the anticipated Messiah, Jesus was killed and raised on the third Day, and the Law subsequently came to an end, for Paul teaches that anyone who attempts to be justified by the Law remains under the Lord's Curse, and at minimum, the Adamic Curse. But again, the point is that all of these things have come true. God wants us to see His Power, for He is constantly reminding us of it . . . especially throughout the Old Testament. God, apparently, is the only one allowed to boast! And He sure does, like none other.

It seems to me that this is about God having an Eternal Plan, it is being fulfilled, and the fact that God is accomplishing it perfectly, is making those Rulers and Authorities in Heaven quake in their Spiritual boots.

The Tree of Life was presented to Adam in the Garden and was intended for all humans to partake of it. Even before Creation, God designed all humans to be saved through the shed Blood and Sacrifice of Jesus Christ. Then the Ark which Noah escaped the Flood in. And God made a covenant with Abraham to be Father over "Many Nations," that means both Jew and Gentile.

When I put it all together it makes sense the Law was for all people, even though it was administered to the Jews, and Grace is for all people. Grace, like the Law was first given to the Jew before the Gentile. Jesus said He came for the Lost Sheep of Israel.

Every Covenant God made with man He first did it to the Jew before the Gentile became eligible.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

The Tree of Life was presented to Adam in the Garden and was intended for all humans to partake of it. Even before Creation, God designed all humans to be saved through the shed Blood and Sacrifice of Jesus Christ. Then the Ark which Noah escaped the Flood in. And God made a covenant with Abraham to be Father over "Many Nations," that means both Jew and Gentile.

When I put it all together it makes sense the Law was for all people, even though it was administered to the Jews, and Grace is for all people. Grace, like the Law was first given to the Jew before the Gentile. Jesus said He came for the Lost Sheep of Israel.

Every Covenant God made with man He first did it to the Jew before the Gentile became eligible.

“knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, for whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;”
‭‭1 Timothy‬ ‭1:9-10‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith. And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.

….Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions,

till the seed should come to whom the promise was made;

and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator. Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one.

But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe. But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.

Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭3:10-12, 19-20, 22-25‬ ‭


“But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.

And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter.

And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.

And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us; and put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.

Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear? But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.

…….Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God: but that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.


Then pleased it the apostles and elders, with the whole church, to send chosen men of their own company to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas; namely, Judas surnamed Barsabas, and Silas, chief men among the brethren: and they wrote letters by them after this manner; The apostles and elders and brethren send greeting unto the brethren which are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia: forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭15:5-11, 19-20, 22-24‬ ‭KJV‬‬

 

[Chaps]

There is actually Scripture that states that the Law [did] provide forgiveness of specific sins. What the Law could not do, however, is cleanse a conscious of the Sinful Nature.

That said, I believe there is also Scripture, from Paul, where he states that the Law never provided forgiveness for sins, yet the Old Testament teachings is clear that it did.

Yes, in a sense, their obedience did result in forgiveness. However, the NT clearly spells out that that forgiveness was secured through Christ. David was a man of faith. The forgiveness he received was the result of his trust in God and was forwarded to the cross of Christ. The animals sacrifices and adherence to the Law were act of faith that caused God to declare them to be righteous. Yet, the only way God could declare them righteous was because He provided a means for that cleansing at the cross. I think Romans 4:13–24 and Hebrews 11:13 spells this out for us pretty clearly.

 

[Chaps]

There is actually Scripture that states that the Law [did] provide forgiveness of specific sins. What the Law could not do, however, is cleanse a conscious of the Sinful Nature.

That said, I believe there is also Scripture, from Paul, where he states that the Law never provided forgiveness for sins, yet the Old Testament teachings is clear that it did.

Hebrews 11:39-40 also speaks to this:

And all these, though commended through their faith, did not receive what was promised, since God had provided something better for us, that apart from us they should not be made perfect.

 

[Chaps]

Yeah God has always had a plan from the very beginning , the way we see time is just his plan unfolding he always knew from the beginning Jesus would be born live and die and raise up again from the dead . The ot folks were punished just not eternally it was more like this

“And they shall be gathered together, as prisoners are gathered in the pit, and shall be shut up in the prison, and after many days shall they be visited.”
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭24:22‬ ‭

for instance these folks received thier due reward earthly

“And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart. And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭6:5-7‬ ‭

abut then look at this

“For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: by which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.”
‭‭1 Peter‬ ‭3:18-20‬ ‭

See they died according to thier flesh but

“For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, ( they were punished )


but live according to God in the spirit.”( but also heard the gospel afterwards )
‭‭1 Peter‬ ‭4:6‬ ‭KJV‬‬

I’m not sure that makes sense but yes I think that’s probably talking about the same matters at least in general

Personally, I dont think the 1 Peter passages are talking about this, but ai posted a few that i think do. In my view, Peter is talking about Christians who are suffering for their faith. Peter uses the story of Noah to drive home a point. The Christians were suffering in a similar fashion to Noah, yet Noah remained faithful and continued to preach through the Spirit of Christ (Holy Spirit) for them to repent before it was too late. He preached to those who were ”now in prison.” I take this to mean that Noah preached to people who are now suffering judgment because they refused to listen and died in the flood. I DONT take this to mean that Jesus went to preach to people in Hell. First, I dont think that makes any sense for Jesus to preach to people who are dead and condemned (what would he be saying, “too bad you didn’t listen or I could have saved you!” Or was he giving them a second chance to repent? Neither seems likely or biblical). Rather, Noah preached to those who refused to listen and as a result died in the flood and are now in prison. Thus, Peter is saying that our situation is not unlike Noah’s where he suffered in a rebellious culture to people who refused to listen, yet he stayed faithful and was saved through the flood waters that condemned them. “In the same way” Peter says, the water of baptism now saves us just as from this unbelieving world just as the flood waters saved Noah from his unbelieving world. The bottom line to the readers is, “Just stay faithful, suffer paitiently and keep preaching and know that, like Noah, they will be condemned and you will be saved in the end.”

 

[Chaps]

If Jesus is the way for both Jew and Gentile in the 2nd Covenant, why wouldn't the Law be for all people in the 1st covenant? Everyone is a direct descendant of Noah.

Yes, we are all descendants of Noah, but God chose a particular lineage to be his message bearers. God did not send prophets or give the Law to the nations of the world. While any Gentile could convert to Judaism and be accepted into the covenant (we see this throughout the Old and New Testament…and God even used Gentiles like Rahab and others) most of the Gentiles did not know or have access to the revelation of God. Israel was a very small nation in a very big world…Gentiles around the world and even nearby to the Jews, such as the Babylonians, Assyrians, Philistines, etc. did not know the Law or receive messages from God (except for a few circumstances when God sent prophets like Jonah to Ninevah).

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Personally, I dont think the 1 Peter passages are talking about this, but ai posted a few that i think do. In my view, Peter is talking about Christians who are suffering for their faith. Peter uses the story of Noah to drive home a point. The Christians were suffering in a similar fashion to Noah, yet Noah remained faithful and continued to preach through the Spirit of Christ (Holy Spirit) for them to repent before it was too late. He preached to those who were ”now in prison.” I take this to mean that Noah preached to people who are now suffering judgment because they refused to listen and died in the flood. I DONT take this to mean that Jesus went to preach to people in Hell. First, I dont think that makes any sense for Jesus to preach to people who are dead and condemned (what would he be saying, “too bad you didn’t listen or I could have saved you!” Or was he giving them a second chance to repent? Neither seems likely or biblical). Rather, Noah preached to those who refused to listen and as a result died in the flood and are now in prison. Thus, Peter is saying that our situation is not unlike Noah’s where he suffered in a rebellious culture to people who refused to listen, yet he stayed faithful and was saved through the flood waters that condemned them. “In the same way” Peter says, the water of baptism now saves us just as from this unbelieving world just as the flood waters saved Noah from his unbelieving world. The bottom line to the readers is, “Just stay faithful, suffer paitiently and keep preaching and know that, like Noah, they will be condemned and you will be saved in the end.”

You don’t think Peter is saying that Jesus died and his spirit went to the spirits in prison who were disobedient in the days of Noah building the ark ?

“For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: by which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.”
‭‭1 Peter‬ ‭3:18-20‬ ‭KJV‬‬

who are “ the spirits in prison who were disobedient in the time of. Ish preparing the ark ? You think that’s talking about Christian’s ? I’m not sure where we’re not reading the same thing maybe niv ?

“For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive in the Spirit. After being made alive, he went and made proclamation to the imprisoned spirits— to those who were disobedient long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water,”
‭‭1 Peter‬ ‭3:18-20‬ ‭NIV‬

it seems to me ( just my own opinion ) that it’s not even really in doubt ehat he’s saying it’s very specific and clear in my own thought . This doesn’t mean I’m saying your absolutely wrong or im right , just explaining my position I don’t think there’s any need for us to disagree about what peters saying there and there are other scriptures that support and make it even clearer

one is this

“For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead,

that they might be judged according to men in the flesh,

but live according to God in the spirit.”
‭‭1 Peter‬ ‭4:6‬ ‭KJV‬‬

remember what Peter was saying ?

“being put to death in the flesh,

but quickened by the Spirit: “

“by which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing”

Do you see how Jesus said this about God

“He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭12:27‬ ‭KJV‬‬

After Jesus died and rose up from death we understand this happened

“For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭14:9‬ ‭KJV‬‬

I would submit that Jesus can save any soul that has ever been born from the beginning to end even those who died before he was born because when he died he entered into death where mans spirits were held captive

“But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

…Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same;

that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; and deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭2:9, 14-15‬ ‭KJV‬‬

look what Jesus is holding after he rose up victorious over death

“I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭1:18‬ ‭

what that means is this

“Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel.”
‭‭Ezekiel‬ ‭37:12‬ ‭KJV‬‬

After Jesus died and his spirit went into deaths prison preaching the gospel like Peter and Paul also in Roman’s are saying there

“and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, and came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭27:52-53‬ ‭KJV‬‬

you can see that Jesus holds the power over life and death now which is why he can make this declaration only Jesus can promise this because he’s the lord over life and death and all those within those realms

“Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.”
‭‭John‬ ‭5:24‬ ‭KJV‬‬

that includes those who were dead before he came

“and he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for our's only, but also for the sins of the whole world.”
‭‭1 John‬ ‭2:2‬ ‭KJV‬‬


Jesus died even for adams sins whether we repent and believe his word is another matter

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

Yes, we are all descendants of Noah, but God chose a particular lineage to be his message bearers. God did not send prophets or give the Law to the nations of the world. While any Gentile could convert to Judaism and be accepted into the covenant (we see this throughout the Old and New Testament…and God even used Gentiles like Rahab and others) most of the Gentiles did not know or have access to the revelation of God. Israel was a very small nation in a very big world…Gentiles around the world and even nearby to the Jews, such as the Babylonians, Assyrians, Philistines, etc. did not know the Law or receive messages from God (except for a few circumstances when God sent prophets like Jonah to Ninevah).

God used the same people to present both covenants. What I have already posted I will stand on it.

 

[Chaps]

You don’t think Peter is saying that Jesus died and his spirit went to the spirits in prison who were disobedient in the days of Noah building the ark ?

“For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: by which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.”
‭‭1 Peter‬ ‭3:18-20‬ ‭KJV‬‬

who are “ the spirits in prison who were disobedient in the time of. Ish preparing the ark ? You think that’s talking about Christian’s ? I’m not sure where we’re not reading the same thing maybe niv ?

“For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive in the Spirit. After being made alive, he went and made proclamation to the imprisoned spirits— to those who were disobedient long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water,”
‭‭1 Peter‬ ‭3:18-20‬ ‭NIV‬

it seems to me ( just my own opinion ) that it’s not even really in doubt ehat he’s saying it’s very specific and clear in my own thought . This doesn’t mean I’m saying your absolutely wrong or im right , just explaining my position I don’t think there’s any need for us to disagree about what peters saying there and there are other scriptures that support and make it even clearer

one is this

“For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead,

that they might be judged according to men in the flesh,

but live according to God in the spirit.”
‭‭1 Peter‬ ‭4:6‬ ‭KJV‬‬

remember what Peter was saying ?

“being put to death in the flesh,

but quickened by the Spirit: “

“by which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing”

Do you see how Jesus said this about God

“He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭12:27‬ ‭KJV‬‬

After Jesus died and rose up from death we understand this happened

“For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭14:9‬ ‭KJV‬‬

I would submit that Jesus can save any soul that has ever been born from the beginning to end even those who died before he was born because when he died he entered into death where mans spirits were held captive

“But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

…Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same;

that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; and deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭2:9, 14-15‬ ‭KJV‬‬

look what Jesus is holding after he rose up victorious over death

“I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭1:18‬ ‭

what that means is this

“Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel.”
‭‭Ezekiel‬ ‭37:12‬ ‭KJV‬‬

After Jesus died and his spirit went into deaths prison preaching the gospel like Peter and Paul also in Roman’s are saying there

“and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, and came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭27:52-53‬ ‭KJV‬‬

you can see that Jesus holds the power over life and death now which is why he can make this declaration only Jesus can promise this because he’s the lord over life and death and all those within those realms

“Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.”
‭‭John‬ ‭5:24‬ ‭KJV‬‬

that includes those who were dead before he came

“and he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for our's only, but also for the sins of the whole world.”
‭‭1 John‬ ‭2:2‬ ‭KJV‬‬


Jesus died even for adams sins whether we repent and believe his word is another matter

I appreciate your response and your references to a lot of Scripture. I do not think this passage is referring to Jesus preaching to souls condemned in the days of Noah in hell/purgatory for the following reasons…

1. “Spirit of Christ“ is a reference to the Holy Spirit (cf. Romans 8:9, 1 Peter 1:11, Phil. 1:9). Thus, it is a simpler reading of the passage to see this as the Holy Spirit preaching through Noah than to interpret this as Jesus personally going to the dead to preach to them, imo.

2. The context of this passage is found in 1 Peter 3:13-17 which says,

Now who is there to harm you if you are zealous for what is good? But even if you should suffer for righteousness’ sake, you will be blesssed. Have no fear of them, nor be troubled, but in your hearts honor Christ the Lord as holy, always being prepared to make a defense to anyone who asks you for a reason for the hope that is in you; yet do it with gentleness and respect, having a good conscience, so that, when you are slandered, those who revile your good behavior in Christ may be put to shame. For it is better to suffer for doing good, if that should be God’s will, than for doing evil.

I dont see how jumping to the idea that Jesus went to hell to preach to the dead has anything to do with encouraging Christians to suffer for righteousness’ sake. If anything, the idea that some of the disobedient had a second chance to repent after they died would undermine this focus. Rather, he is showing how Noah was like them in that he also had to suffer in an unbelieving generation. He continued to be zealous for what is good and preach the truth and was ultimately saved from those who slandered and mocked him.

3. Nowhere else in Scripture do we see that people have or have had the opportunity to repent after death. Actually, the opposite is taught that “today is the day of salvation” and that those who die in their sins are lost (John 8:24). Also we read that it is destined for man to live once and then face judgment (Hebrews 9:27).

4. Finally, the point being made here is to compare their struggles with the struggles of Noah who was saved through the flood from the wicked. In the same way, baptism saves the believer and is a promise of that same deliverance. Discussing Jesus preaching to the dead would derail from this focus. Besides, what would Jesus say to the dead? Why wouldn’t the dead repent if they are in bondage and condemned? And why wouldn’t the righteous be tempted to do evil if they were taught they might have a second chance to repent after death as those in the days of Noah did?

No, I think the simple reading of this passage is that the Holy Spirit preaches deliverance from condemnation through baptism to our current age just as he preached deliverance from condemnation through the flood in the days of Noah. Thus, we should remain faithful and not lose heart. There is no need, in my estimation, to introduce new doctrines about second chances and the salvation of the dead.