If the wilderness Tabernacle was made in the pattern shown to Moses by God...

[Dan_473]

As for those agitators,
I wish they would go the whole way and emasculate themselves!
(Galatians 5:12) ​

Paul is not mincing words with these people.
This is a very clear reference to circumcision -- and there is exactly one group of people who practice that.
Jews.
Judaizers. Hebrew Roots.

So don't even pretend that the problem in Galatia was gentiles picking on the faithful for practicing Torah.
That would be a boldfaced lie.

9 But take care that this liberty (Literally: right) of yours does not somehow become a stumbling block to the weak.

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1 Corinthians+8&version=NASB


imo, the hebrew roots folks take advantage of the fact that the first century church
was in transistion... it starts out fully Jewish, becomes mostly gentile



Jewish people have a different relationship to the law, imo

“You see, brother, how many thousands there are among the Jews* of those who have believed, and they are all zealous for the Law"

*in Jerusalem

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=acts+21&version=nasb

 

[Grace777x70]

Jesus is the fulfillment of the Law and the prophets and Psalms. Law-keepers continually leave out Christ in trying to establish their own righteousness by "keeping the law".

This is why their belief system is anti-Christ. Paul said in the last days that people would be "anti-Christ" NOT "anti-God". The law-keepers have a appearance of good but they deny Christ and His finished work.

 

[disciplemike]

Didn't grow up with Christmas.

I do like the songs sung at Christmas like O Holy night and Drummer Boy and many others ....I also like when people reenact the story of Baby Jesus and the angels singing on high.

I think Santa has been corrupted. The man who inspired Santa have toys to poor orphans who wouldn't have had them....now a days kids are told to "be good" and "earn" their presents...corruption of what grace is suppose to show...We can't bee "good" enough to earn salvation...sometimes bad kids get nice presents from "Santa" aka rich mom and dad ....while the orphans get nothing.

The Easter bunny scared my kids when they were little. Didn't grow up with that either.

Easter time should be in celebration of the resurrection of Christ or after lent/40 days in honor of the time Jesus spent in the desert.

As for implying that the church is Babylon, not really buying it...I prefer Jesus prayer for God to keep us even though we have to live in this world.

40 days of lent?
That is for Tammuz. He was killed by a wild boar when he was 40.
pagan. pagan. pagan.
and, by the way, I also really enjoyed the xmas plays, until I learned the truth.
again, just do a little research on Dec25.
It was being celebrated long before Christ.

 

[Ariel82]

9 But take care that this liberty (Literally: right) of yours does not somehow become a stumbling block to the weak.

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1 Corinthians+8&version=NASB


imo, the hebrew roots folks take advantage of the fact that the first century church
was in transistion... it starts out fully Jewish, becomes mostly gentile



Jewish people have a different relationship to the law, imo

“You see, brother, how many thousands there are among the Jews* of those who have believed, and they are all zealous for the Law"

*in Jerusalem

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=acts+21&version=nasb

I meet some Hebrew roots folks who are pretty awesome brothers and sisters in Christ. I don't mind folks digging into the old feasts and dietary laws etc as long as they recognize that they are shadows and reality found in Christ, have the Gospel and aren't hypocrites or judiaziers.

 

[Grace777x70]

9 But take care that this liberty (Literally: right) of yours does not somehow become a stumbling block to the weak.

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Corinthians+8&version=NASB


imo, the hebrew roots folks take advantage of the fact that the first century church
was in transistion... it starts out fully Jewish, becomes mostly gentile



Jewish people have a different relationship to the law, imo

“You see, brother, how many thousands there are among the Jews* of those who have believed, and they are all zealous for the Law"

*in Jerusalem

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=acts+21&version=nasb

It didn't take very long before the gospel was watered down and perverted by the law-keepers as Acts 21:20 shows. Paul continually had to fight them off from deceiving Christians with their "law-keeping" and trying to get Christians to desert Christ.

 

[Ariel82]

40 days of lent?
That is for Tammuz. He was killed by a wild boar when he was 40.
pagan. pagan. pagan.
and, by the way, I also really enjoyed the xmas plays, until I learned the truth.
again, just do a little research on Dec25.
It was being celebrated long before Christ.

So you are saying the Bible,doesnt talk about the 40 days Jesus was tempted in the desert?

You trust secular sources over the Bible?

The plays are based on the BIBLE.

You have fallen into the opposite of the road into the ditch...

 

[Grace777x70]

I meet some Hebrew roots folks who are pretty awesome brothers and sisters in Christ. I don't mind folks digging into the old feasts and dietary laws etc as long as they recognize that they are shadows and reality found in Christ, have the Gospel and aren't hypocrites or judiaziers.

I agree..I like to see Christ in the old covenant and temple sacrifices..etc. Not all Jewish believers in Christ are Judaizers by a long shot - just the ones that try to get people to go back to the Law for living. It's an anti-Christ belief system.

 

[disciplemike]

So you are saying the Bible,doesnt talk about the 40 days Jesus was tempted in the desert?

You trust secular sources over the Bible?

The plays are based on the BIBLE.

You have fallen into the opposite of the road into the ditch...

where is the precedent for Lent in the Bible?
you can take almost any pagan rite, and put a xtian spin on it.
this is the problem.
God says, do NOT worship me like the nations that are around you.
Aaron thought it would be cool to make a golden calf, and called it THE LORD.
didn't go over very well.

 

[gotime]

Obsolete =

Hebrews 8:13 (NASB)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] When He said, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear.

[FONT=&quot]παλαιόω[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]palaioō[/FONT] verb To make old, to become old, declare or treat as obsolete

Complete Biblical Library Greek-English Dictionary, The - The Complete Biblical Library Greek-English Dictionary – Pi-Rho.


The Old Covenant is now a goner. We as Christians have died to the Law SO THAT we could be joined to Another - Jesus Christ Himself.

The Law is really a manifestation of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. We are to eat now from the tree of Life which is Christ Himself.

Love is the main thing and we love now because He first loved us. The Law fulfilled it's purpose and brought us to Christ - so now we live by Him alone. Only the love of God that is now in us ( Rom. 5:5 ) can actually fulfill the full intent of the Law - this is really a manifestation of the life of Christ in and through us.

Ok thanx for that. I would say one thing though, love has always been the main thing. Old or new. In fact both the old and new are understood as marriages. One broken ending in divorce and the second is a new marriage.

Blessings thanx again, I don't fully agree with everything you have said but do appreciate your response.

 

[Ariel82]

where is the precedent for Lent in the Bible?
you can take almost any pagan rite, and put a xtian spin on it.
this is the problem.
God says, do NOT worship me like the nations that are around you.
Aaron thought it would be cool to make a golden calf, and called it THE LORD.
didn't go over very well.

You are comparing apples and oranges...the golden calf was based upon pagan religions... Lent is based on the 40 days Jesus spent in the Bible...it has similar significance as the feast of tabernacle when folks go and live in tents for a week..,,cause people to give up things in this world they think they need and focus instead on God...

The feast of tabernacle reminds people of when God lead His people out of Egypt and they wandered the desert for 40 years. They grumbled and complained and were not allowed in the promise land.

Jesus was in the desert for 40 days.

Lent is a memorial for that event. I don't care what pagan holiday atheist claim it "really" celebrates. I will trust God and His Bible first and foremost.

 

[disciplemike]

You are comparing apples and oranges...the golden calf was based upon pagan religions... Lent is based on the 40 days Jesus spent in the Bible...it has similar significance as the feast of tabernacle when folks go and live in tents for a week..,,cause people to give up things in this world they think they need and focus instead on God...

The feast of tabernacle reminds people of when God lead His people out of Egypt and they wandered the desert for 40 years. They grumbled and complained and were not allowed in the promise land.

Jesus was in the desert for 40 days.

Lent is a memorial for that event. I don't care what pagan holiday atheist claim it "really" celebrates. I will trust God and His Bible first and foremost.

wonderful. if you trust God and the Bible, then worship the way He says!
Did Paul observe Lent?
What about Peter?
I am really not trying to insult you. Just trying to show where man's traditions are not Biblical.

 

[garee]

Originally Posted by disciplemike

great passage. however, it is not referring to the holy appointed times of God. Not by a long shot. Try reading with context.

The appointed time of reformation has come,showing us Christ has come in the flesh the restored order has been revealing the new order called Christianity. There is no bleating of sheep or any other fleshly metaphor needed to represent our suffering savoir. The demonstration is over.

Returning to apostate Judaism seems like one of the newer sects uprising gaining speed. I think we should be careful on how we hear.

The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing: Which was a figure(parable)for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them “until the time of reformation”. Heb 9:8

Christ, the Holy Ghost said in respect to his own temporal flesh, it profits for nothing seeing we walk by faith and not experiencing new life through ceremonial fleshly laws.

Christ has come in the fullness of time .Today he indwells every believer who walks by Christ’s faith, the faith of God and not by sight in respect of the experiences.

Walking by experience (walking by sight) is not what God required when he commanded Adam and Eve not to eat of the tree. It was Satan who like God had no form.... who put his words in the mouth of the serpent to draw them to experience if God was true. God did not want them or us to learn by experience(walking by sight) . They found out the hard way. The way of death by corruption, the decaying process called dying where the body ages in a decaying process leading to death and the return back to the lifeless, spiritless rudiments of this world it came from. And our spirit if born again returns to our father who gave it to us by a work of his faith. The spirits of those with no faith , called the froward generation ,the generation of Adam, their spirits will never arise to experience new life in a new incorruptible body.

I would paraphrase it this way. For if any man that have not the Spirit of Christ the Holy anointing Spirit of God then neither do they belong.

But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.Romans 8:9

That personal commentary I did offer above or what the scripture refers to as our private interpretation, I liken as to finger prints everyone possibly a little different. . I believe it would be the jest of the Torah .The perfect law of His love. Christ’s gospel of peace.The peace that guards our hearts and minds. The same peace that surpasses all human understanding

 

[posthuman]

I meet some Hebrew roots folks who are pretty awesome brothers and sisters in Christ. I don't mind folks digging into the old feasts and dietary laws etc as long as they recognize that they are shadows and reality found in Christ, have the Gospel and aren't hypocrites or judiaziers.

How can you tell the difference?

What should we think of people who only preaches Torah, and never preaches Christ?
Who refuses to even answer basic and extremely pertinent questions like "what is the goal of the Law?" and who decline to recognize the distinction between the covenant of Law given to the ethnic Jew through Moses and the covenant that Christ instituted with His own flesh and blood?

It is impossible to read & understand Paul's epistles without becoming aware that among the first persecutions and challenges the saints faced was people trying to place gentile believers under Torah. Or even Acts - it is exactly the issue that made the first church council necessary. A council was necessary because it was not a simple question, and the argument of the Judaizers was in some ways compelling -

- But this is also given to us in scripture for our benefit, as is Galatians and Philippians and Romans and Colossians et al, because this same antichrist spirit still accosts the saints. Now we are armed with a sword, and the foe is easily put at bay! Bless the Lord for this, His aegis!

So as much as we ought to forebear in love, we must also hold fast to right doctrine, and expose & rebuke heresy, for the sake of the weak. Why else would the Spirit of God have seen fit to provide scripture like the epistle to the Galatians, if not for exactly such a circumstance?

At some point we must exercise discernment. So how do we decide when a person is preaching another gospel, and what does scripture say we should do with such a person?

((i ain't asking because i don't know, but in order to stir up whoever doubts))

 

[posthuman]

wonderful. if you trust God and the Bible, then worship the way He says!

o, like

in spirit and truth? (re: John 4:24)
not according to the old way of the Law & the written code? (re: Romans 7:6)

 

[Dan_473]

It didn't take very long before the gospel was watered down and perverted by the law-keepers as Acts 21:20 shows. Paul continually had to fight them off from deceiving Christians with their "law-keeping" and trying to get Christians to desert Christ.

I think we might be seeing it just a little differently, here...

James doesn't seem concerned about the Zealous for the Law Jews (under his care, I assume)

but these people are Jews raised Jewish





I think we agree that if a gentile believer decides that
getting circumsized
will make them better off with God, we say "DANGER"

again, if a gentile believer decides that
eating kosher
will make them better off with God, we say "DANGER"

 

[Dan_473]

Paul says "to Cephas in the presence of all, “If you, being a Jew, live like the Gentiles and not like the Jews, how is it that you compel the Gentiles to live like Jews?"

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=gal+2&version=nasb

 

[disciplemike]

o, like

in spirit and truth? (re: John 4:24)
not according to the old way of the Law & the written code? (re: Romans 7:6)

Thy righteousness
[is] an everlasting righteousness, and thy law [is] the truth.
Psalms 119:142 (KJV, MBM)

 

[Grace777x70]

Jesus said that He is the Truth. Jesus is the real Word. Jesus is our righteousness. Law-keepers always leave out Christ - which is why it is an anti-Christ belief system.

When reading he OT - always substitute Jesus for the word, law , ordinances ..etc...and you will find the real substance as it is Christ Himself.

 

[Yonah]

I am what many would label as a "law keeper" but NEVER do I leave out our Beloved Savior, NEVER, He is what to entire bible is about from Gen, to Rev. and He embodies the plan the creator of the universe has ALWAYS had for the redemption and restoration of mankind... I really don't see it as very wise to make blanket statements about others faith and beliefs that are clearly misunderstood.

 

[gotime]

Jesus said that He is the Truth. Jesus is the real Word. Jesus is our righteousness. Law-keepers always leave out Christ - which is why it is an anti-Christ belief system.

When reading he OT - always substitute Jesus for the word, law , ordinances ..etc...and you will find the real substance as it is Christ Himself.

Just curious on what you have said here.

I agree with everything here except the part about law keepers always leave out Christ.

Let me clarify, I believe that Christians keep the law of God. Yet I agree with you that many who believe that leave out Christ. And I also agree that the law, ordinances etc are all found in Christ.

So what do you mean when you use the term law keepers?

Thanx.