If you are willing to receive it??

[posthuman]

they early church is the remnant who was to be spared and be a blessing , but the ot covenant was broken and the curses written and promised in it were also fulfilled when Christ came and they accused him of blasphemy and crucified him

Israel is in heaven now being restored and is made of all believers who come to Christ. In the end he will return israel to ear to and all those born again folk will fill his earth and he will dwell
Among us and be our God like the promise always was

i understand that but i don't believe He is done with Israel. His second coming ((second Elijah? hmmm... )), Armageddon, et al is all about the entire world standing against / refusing to come to the aid of Israel, and He returns and personally defends them. His feet touch the Mount of Olives & melt it. they will see and know Him whom they pierced, the LORD, and weep & repent. Jerusalem is still the scriptural center of the world -- even in Revelation, it's not a 'heavenly USA or heavenly London' that comes down from heaven, but the heavenly Jerusalem. this is all very Jewish, every bit of it -- even while all the apostles became very familiar with Gentile believers before writing their books & epistles.

but let's not turn this thread into another one of those arguments lol.

peace, to you, on that subject -- i only thought to give my own understanding, not to start a fight. not on that point anyhow, ha!

 

[Pilgrimshope]

“What exactly is that curse? The earth has lost Israel - who was supposed to bless the whole world.
Is that it?”

the curse comes from thier covenant being broken , he had come to restore them after John came with the baptism of repentance but they refused him as they always did and killed their own messiah.

“The earth also is defiled under the inhabitants thereof; because they have transgressed the laws, changed the ordinance, broken the everlasting covenant.

Therefore hath the curse devoured the earth, and they that dwell therein are desolate: therefore the inhabitants of the earth are burned, and few men left.”
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭24:5-6‬ ‭KJV‬‬

see there covenant could be a blessing or a curse based on what they did from the start .

There was a believing remnant ( the early church was all Israelites ) who carried the gospel to all nations which is how they blessed the whole world and this was actually Abraham’s promise

“And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭3:8‬ ‭KJV‬‬

So israel did bless the earth

“And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭16:15-16‬ ‭

In fact our scriptire in the Bible comes from Israelite believers . They became a curse by their covenant breaking the first and also a blessing by the remnant who accepted Christ and were sent out with salvation to all the world preaching the gospel ( Abraham’s promise ) so the children of Abraham are not those born of his blood but those born of Christs blood whether jew or gentile


“For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭3:27-29‬ ‭KJV‬‬

So it’s not that israel is bad or a curse it’s that they continually broke thier covenant so the curses written in it came to pass and spread through the earth but thankfully the remnant believed and carried forth the blessing of the gospel to the world

they early church is the remnant who was to be spared and be a blessing , but the ot covenant was broken and the curses written and promised in it were also fulfilled when Christ came and they accused him of blasphemy and crucified him

Israel is in heaven now being restored and is made of all believers who come to Christ. In the end he will return israel to ear to and all those born again folk will fill his earth and he will dwell
Among us and be our God like the promise always was

That’s just my own take

if prophecy is taken in as a whole there’s a message that’s based on their covenant they were offered this continually “ do away with your transgressions and return to me and you will live “

“Hear ye this word which I take up against you, even a lamentation, O house of Israel. The virgin of Israel is fallen; she shall no more rise: she is forsaken upon her land; there is none to raise her up.

For thus saith the Lord God; The city that went out by a thousand shall leave an hundred, and that which went forth by an hundred shall leave ten, to the house of Israel. For thus saith the Lord unto the house of Israel, Seek ye me, and ye shall live: But seek not Beth–el, nor enter into Gilgal, and pass not to Beer–sheba: for Gilgal shall surely go into captivity, and Beth–el shall come to nought.

Seek the Lord, and ye shall live; lest he break out like fire in the house of Joseph, and devour it, and there be none to quench it in Beth–el. Ye who turn judgment to wormwood, and leave off righteousness in the earth,”
‭‭Amos‬ ‭5:1-7‬ ‭KJV‬‬

there was always a curse if they continued denying him and eventually he had to promise a new covenant because they had chosen the curses. But if they would have repented as the covenant required they would have been blessed .

Christ had come to deliver the blessings but they didn’t recognize him or believe him instead they curses him a blasphemer and killed thier king and savior and he struck the earth with the curse promosed on the end of the prophets pertaining to Elijah

Thier covenant was always this

“Behold, I set before you this day a blessing and a curse;

A blessing, if ye obey the commandments of the Lord your God, which I command you this day:

And a curse, if ye will not obey the commandments of the Lord your God, but turn aside out of the way which I command you this day, to go after other gods, which ye have not known.”
‭‭Deuteronomy‬ ‭11:26-28‬ ‭KJV‬‬

the prophets came repeatedly calling them to repent and be redeemed but it required them to return and fulfill e covenant obeying to be blessed . They never did so even try Willy he set an ending to it

“Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.”
‭‭Daniel‬ ‭9:24‬ ‭KJV‬‬

but instead they persisted in sin and crucified the most holy when he came which brought forth the curses on the whole world part of the curse for Israel was that they be scattered into all nations and with them came the curse to all nations which required the gospel to be preached in all nations for salvation

“They sacrificed unto devils, not to God; to gods whom they knew not, to new gods that came newly up, whom your fathers feared not.

And when the Lord saw it, he abhorred them, because of the provoking of his sons, and of his daughters. And he said, I will hide my face from them, I will see what their end shall be:

for they are a very froward generation, children in whom is no faith. They have moved me to jealousy with that which is not God; they have provoked me to anger with their vanities: and I will move them to jealousy with those which are not a people; ( Gentiles of all nations )

I will provoke them to anger with a foolish nation. For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell, and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains.

I will heap mischiefs upon them; I will spend mine arrows upon them. They shall be burnt with hunger, and devoured with burning heat, and with bitter destruction:

I will also send the teeth of beasts upon them, with the poison of serpents of the dust.

The sword without, and terror within, shall destroy both the young man and the virgin, the suckling also with the man of gray hairs.”
‭‭Deuteronomy‬ ‭32:17, 19-25‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Prophecy is filled with information about this but often we look at a verse or two and don’t see the whole story sorry for the length

 

[posthuman]

"the hearing ear and the seeing eye, the LORD has made them both" -- Proverbs something-or-other =]

20:12

 

[Pilgrimshope]

i understand that but i don't believe He is done with Israel. His second coming ((second Elijah? hmmm... )), Armageddon, et al is all about the entire world standing against / refusing to come to the aid of Israel, and He returns and personally defends them. His feet touch the Mount of Olives & melt it. they will see and know Him whom they pierced, the LORD, and weep & repent. Jerusalem is still the scriptural center of the world -- even in Revelation, it's not a 'heavenly USA or heavenly London' that comes down from heaven, but the heavenly Jerusalem. this is all very Jewish, every bit of it -- even while all the apostles became very familiar with Gentile believers before writing their books & epistles.

but let's not turn this thread into another one of those arguments lol.

peace, to you, on that subject -- i only thought to give my own understanding, not to start a fight. not on that point anyhow, ha!

no brother no fighting at all I was just trying to share “ my own take “ not argue

“Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father.

Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.

But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.

God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.”
‭‭John‬ ‭4:21-24‬ ‭KJV‬‬

 

[posthuman]

no brother no fighting at all I was just trying to share “ my own take “ not argue

“Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father.

Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.

But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.

God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.”
‭‭John‬ ‭4:21-24‬ ‭KJV‬‬

i understand this to mean the end of the law . . ? which required worship only at the place God determined to put His name ((now, that place is our hearts!)) and the bringing of salvation to the whole world through Christ, which was a job 'offered' to Israel but they were tried and found unworthy of it -- only THE LAMB could open the scroll
**just like the testing/proving of them with the manna & the sabbath in Exodus 16, before the law was given!**
to his glory, amen!

 

[justbyfaith]

let's not be silly. in principle i agree with @Mem on that point; both what Christ said in Matthew 11 & what John said in John 1 are true.
not to say i have this worked out -- hence, the thread

but you are clearly suggesting John the baptist lied, either because he was wicked or because he was stupid. i disagree with that; i think the scripture indicates he is neither ignorant nor a liar. i find your position intractable & unsupportable.
we don't have to be enemies because we disagree; but in wisdom we should sort things out about what the real case is

Well, obviously, JTB wasn't lying and therefore he was not Elijah...

And Jesus wasn't lying and therefore JTB was Elijah.

So, it appears that we have a contradiction in holy scripture; and one that I am unable to reconcile at present apart from what I have already posted.

However, I am certain that this third option...that there are contradictions in the Bible...is also untenable.

My solution is that the principle in psychology that I have mentioned was known by the people of John's day...and that therefore, in denying that he was Elijah, John was in fact saying that he was none other than Elijah.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

i understand this to mean the end of the law . . ? which required worship only at the place God determined to put His name ((now, that place is our hearts!)) and the bringing of salvation to the whole world through Christ, which was a job 'offered' to Israel but they were tried and found unworthy of it -- only THE LAMB could open the scroll
**just like the testing/proving of them with the manna & the sabbath in Exodus 16, before the law was given!**
to his glory, amen!

yep exactly that’s what I take it to mean also the end of Israel’s covenant law. But not only the end it’s actually eternal nite now the source of a curse in the earth.

“And when I looked, behold, an hand was sent unto me; and, lo, a roll of a book was therein; And he spread it before me; and it was written within and without: and there was written therein lamentations, and mourning, and woe.”
‭‭Ezekiel‬ ‭2:9-10‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Moreover he said unto me, Son of man, eat that thou findest; eat this roll, and go speak unto the house of Israel. So I opened my mouth, and he caused me to eat that roll.

And he said unto me, Son of man, go, get thee unto the house of Israel, and speak with my words unto them. For thou art not sent to a people of a strange speech and of an hard language, but to the house of Israel;

But the house of Israel will not hearken unto thee; for they will not hearken unto me: for all the house of Israel are impudent and hardhearted. Behold, I have made thy face strong against their faces, and thy forehead strong against their foreheads.”
‭‭Ezekiel‬ ‭3:1-2, 4-5, 7-8‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals.

And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon. And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭5:1, 4-5‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And when he had opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth beast say, Come and see. And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭6:7-8‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“For thus saith the Lord God; How much more when I send my four sore judgments upon Jerusalem, the sword, and the famine, and the noisome beast, and the pestilence, to cut off from it man and beast?”
‭‭Ezekiel‬ ‭14:21‬ ‭KJV‬‬

After we see the curse of Israel’s covenant sent into the earth there appears a little open book ( the gospel ) now unsealed and it’s given to John and is for all Nations and not only Israel now

“And I saw another mighty angel come down from heaven, clothed with a cloud: and a rainbow was upon his head, and his face was as it were the sun, and his feet as pillars of fire:

And he had in his hand a little book open: and he set his right foot upon the sea, and his left foot on the earth, And cried with a loud voice, as when a lion roareth: and when he had cried, seven thunders uttered their voices. ….

And the voice which I heard from heaven spake unto me again, and said, Go and take the little book which is open in the hand of the angel which standeth upon the sea and upon the earth. And I went unto the angel, and said unto him, Give me the little book. And he said unto me, Take it, and eat it up; and it shall make thy belly bitter, but it shall be in thy mouth sweet as honey.

And I took the little book out of the angel's hand, and ate it up; and it was in my mouth sweet as honey: and as soon as I had eaten it, my belly was bitter.

And he said unto me, Thou must prophesy again before many peoples, and nations, and tongues, and kings.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭10:1-3, 8-11‬ ‭KJV‬‬


I think ( just my own thought ) were seeing Israel’s covenant curse be sent into the earth , and the gospel being sent into all nations yet the curses of the law were sent out by Christ when he was taken into heaven after they crucified him

This seems to set of the opening of the curses sent out


“And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth. And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭5:6-7‬ ‭KJV‬‬

he then opens the book and the judgements come out that we’re written in the law and prophets , and later we see a little book that’s open given to the apostle John and sent into all nations

sorry again for the length and I hope it makes sense ( just my own thoughts again as always )

 

[Pilgrimshope]

i understand that but i don't believe He is done with Israel. His second coming ((second Elijah? hmmm... )), Armageddon, et al is all about the entire world standing against / refusing to come to the aid of Israel, and He returns and personally defends them. His feet touch the Mount of Olives & melt it. they will see and know Him whom they pierced, the LORD, and weep & repent. Jerusalem is still the scriptural center of the world -- even in Revelation, it's not a 'heavenly USA or heavenly London' that comes down from heaven, but the heavenly Jerusalem. this is all very Jewish, every bit of it -- even while all the apostles became very familiar with Gentile believers before writing their books & epistles.

but let's not turn this thread into another one of those arguments lol.

peace, to you, on that subject -- i only thought to give my own understanding, not to start a fight. not on that point anyhow, ha!

yes it could be something I just have t seen in scripture about them being restored. I definately know I have the capability of being wrong lol I’ve proven that to myself many times in life more to an I can count honestly

so I’m not saying I’m right , just sharing my take of what I perceive and that’s not the final answer just where I’m at currently I see Israel’s restoration here

“And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭21:1-5‬ ‭KJV‬‬

which to me is a further revelation of what Israel was promised its just how we get there

“For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.

But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy.

And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying.”
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭65:17-19‬ ‭KJV‬‬

but just my thinking only and other views should definately be considered also I try to always consider things from different points of view d see if it makes sense to Me

God bless brother , I appreciate your patience with me

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Well, obviously, JTB wasn't lying and therefore he was not Elijah...

And Jesus wasn't lying and therefore JTB was Elijah.

So, it appears that we have a contradiction in holy scripture; and one that I am unable to reconcile at present apart from what I have already posted.

However, I am certain that this third option...that there are contradictions in the Bible...is also untenable.

My solution is that the principle in psychology that I have mentioned was known by the people of John's day...and that therefore, in denying that he was Elijah, John was in fact saying that he was none other than Elijah.

Well, obviously, JTB wasn't lying and therefore he was not Elijah...

And Jesus wasn't lying and therefore JTB was Elijah.

So, it appears that we have a contradiction in holy scripture; and one that I am unable to reconcile at present apart from what I have already posted.

However, I am certain that this third option...that there are contradictions in the Bible...is also untenable.

My solution is that the principle in psychology that I have mentioned was known by the people of John's day...and that therefore, in denying that he was Elijah, John was in fact saying that he was none other than Elijah.

do you think it’s possible that john was not literally Elijah ? But what the prophecy is saying is that john would be acting in the spirit and power of Elijah ?

“But the angel said unto him, Fear not, Zacharias: for thy prayer is heard; and thy wife Elisabeth shall bear thee a son, and thou shalt call his name John.

…And he shall go before him in the spirit and power of Elijah , to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared for the Lord.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭1:13, 17‬ ‭

“Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭2:13-14‬ ‭KJV‬‬

so Should we consider this that Jesus said also as more support

“And his disciples asked him, saying, Why then say the scribes that Elijah must first come?

And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elijah truly shall first come, and restore all things. But I say unto you, That Elijah is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. ( they beheaded him because they didn’t recognize him )

Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them. Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭17:10-13‬ ‭KJV‬‬

I think it’s worth considering the spiritual aspect of this

 

[Pilgrimshope]

No, John is not contradicting Jesus, but Jesus was confirming what Gabriel had said to Zacharias: And he shall go before him in the spirit and power of Elias [Elijah], to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared for the Lord. (Luke 1:17)

This is what was also said about Elijah in Malachi. But the real Elijah is yet to come.

“Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord:”
‭‭Malachi‬ ‭4:5‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And his disciples asked him, saying, Why then say the scribes that Elijah must first come?

And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elijah truly shall first come, and restore all things. But I say unto you, That Elijah is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed.

Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them.

Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭17:10-13‬ ‭KJV‬‬

 

[Mem]

It isn't hard to make my favorite reads list, but it is to remain on it. With two of the more thoughtful writers contributing to this thread, it is, imho, among the top and I think just worth noting. I'm reminded again, why I love cc! ty

 

[DavidTree]

“And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth. These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth. (Zechariah 4:11-14)

These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy:


and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.”(exodus 7:20, exodus 7-10)
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭11:3-4, 6‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And Elijah the Tishbite, who was of the inhabitants of Gilead, said unto Ahab, As the Lord God of Israel liveth, before whom I stand, there shall not be dew nor rain these years, but according to my word.”
‭‭1 Kings‬ ‭17:1‬ ‭

“Elijah was a man subject to like passions as we are, and he prayed earnestly that it might not rain: and it rained not on the earth by the space of three years and six months.”
‭‭James‬ ‭5:17‬ ‭KJV‬‬

There are many bible versions concerning Mathew 11;14. The problem concerning this scripture about Elijah is that the verb " is " turns out to be a present participle. Many version have one of the 3, is to come, was to come, or about to come so the translation is to come is literally correct. The infinitive is also present. But the infinitive has a continuous idea, so the versions are trying to capture this. To be grossly literal, the idea would be that Elijah is continuously coming, but that makes no sense. So, most likely it should be Elijah must come or will come. This is one of the places where the context determines the meanings of the participle and a strict understanding of the grammar is not that helpful.

That is because scholarly grammar is not the Holy Spirit, but it is a tool for study purposes.

 

[posthuman]

Only figuratively (and that is also how Christ alluded to him). John the Baptist came in the spirit and power of Elijah, but he was no incarnation of Elijah. He emphatically denied that he was Elijah: And he confessed, and denied not; but confessed, I am not the Christ.
And they asked him, What then? Art thou Elias? [Elijah] And he saith, I am not. Art thou that prophet? [Christ] And he answered, No. (John 1:20,21)

Elijah will literally appear on earth during the Tribulation (for 3 1/2 years) and before the great day of the LORD (the Great Tribulation). See Revelation 11. He will shut down the rain during that time, as he did while on earth during the reign of Ahab (a type of the Antichrist).

so, Jesus says "if you will receive" then Malachi is to be interpreted figuratively -- that John isn't 'reincarnated' or resurrected Elijah, but John is the fulfillment of Malachi's prophecy..
but - for those who "will not receive" then the word through Malachi will be fulfilled in another witness?
should we even think that there is another fulfillment of the sending of Elijah, if Christ says John is that fulfilment? if they would not believe John, why would they believe someone else, later? ((e.g. Luke 16:31))

and those two witnesses: why do we say the two witnesses are second appearances of two men, most commonly interpreted as Moses & Elijah?
if John is not reincarnated/resurrected Elijah, but Christ gives us the interpretation of Malachi saying John is that Elijah who is to come, then why do we all say the two witnesses will be two people from ancient days, having returned? because they perform signs that other great men performed? we say they are Moses & Elijah because through Moses's testimony God turned water into blood, and through Elijah's prayer God withheld rain. but God can certainly do the same through anyone, if He desires to -- and here we see Jesus saying John is that Elijah, but John performed no miracles.

 

[DavidTree]

so, Jesus says "if you will receive" then Malachi is to be interpreted figuratively -- that John isn't 'reincarnated' or resurrected Elijah, but John is the fulfillment of Malachi's prophecy..
but - for those who "will not receive" then the word through Malachi will be fulfilled in another witness?
should we even think that there is another fulfillment of the sending of Elijah, if Christ says John is that fulfilment? if they would not believe John, why would they believe someone else, later? ((e.g. Luke 16:31))

and those two witnesses: why do we say the two witnesses are second appearances of two men, most commonly interpreted as Moses & Elijah?
if John is not reincarnated/resurrected Elijah, but Christ gives us the interpretation of Malachi saying John is that Elijah who is to come, then why do we all say the two witnesses will be two people from ancient days, having returned? because they perform signs that other great men performed? we say they are Moses & Elijah because through Moses's testimony God turned water into blood, and through Elijah's prayer God withheld rain. but God can certainly do the same through anyone, if He desires to -- and here we see Jesus saying John is that Elijah, but John performed no miracles.

EXCELLENT questions my Brother - Good Morning

i would say, IMHO, that the Two Witnesses are indeed Two literal humans/men sent by the Lord on a special mission as detailed in Revelation.

IMHO, also believe they are Two Men of Faith from the OT Scriptures.

love you my Friend & Brother Nehemiah

 

[posthuman]

Well, obviously, JTB wasn't lying and therefore he was not Elijah...

And Jesus wasn't lying and therefore JTB was Elijah.

So, it appears that we have a contradiction in holy scripture; and one that I am unable to reconcile at present apart from what I have already posted.

However, I am certain that this third option...that there are contradictions in the Bible...is also untenable.

My solution is that the principle in psychology that I have mentioned was known by the people of John's day...and that therefore, in denying that he was Elijah, John was in fact saying that he was none other than Elijah.

one thing probably useful to think about is the context of the conversations in which Jesus calls John that Elijah, and in which John says he is not Elijah...

And His disciples asked Him, saying, “Why then do the scribes say that Elijah must come first?”​

Jesus answered and said to them,
“Indeed, Elijah is coming first and will restore all things. But I say to you that Elijah has come already, and they did not know him but did to him whatever they wished. Likewise the Son of Man is also about to suffer at their hands.”
Then the disciples understood that He spoke to them of John the Baptist.​

(Matthew 17:10-13)
​

they are asking Him why the scribes say Elijah must come first -- and why are the scribes saying that? because they are denying that He is the Christ, and one of their arguments is that Elijah hasn't come, but Malachi says Elijah will come before the Messiah does.
the disciples believe He is the Messiah, that He has come, so they are puzzled about why the scribes are saying this. they think, how can it be that You are the Messiah, when we ain't got the Tishbite calling fire down from heaven to prepare the way for you?

Now this is the testimony of John, when the Jews sent priests and Levites from Jerusalem to ask him, “Who are you?”​

He confessed, and did not deny, but confessed, “I am not the Christ.”​

And they asked him, “What then? Are you Elijah?”​

He said, “I am not.”​

“Are you the Prophet?”​

And he answered, “No.”​

Then they said to him, “Who are you, that we may give an answer to those who sent us? What do you say about yourself?”​

He said: “I am​

‘The voice of one crying in the wilderness:
“Make straight the way of the Lord,” ’​

as the prophet Isaiah said.”​

Now those who were sent were from the Pharisees. And they asked him, saying, “Why then do you baptize if you are not the Christ, nor Elijah, nor the Prophet?”​

(John 1:19-25)
​

here we also have the context of the Pharisees, who do not believe his message, asking John to make a claim about himself. it's interesting that the text doesn't say they ask him if he is the Christ, just, 'who are you?' -- but his first response is that he is not the Messiah. so there was a subtext to their coming to him; they are prodding him to see if he is claiming to be the Christ -- for which, no doubt, they would have sought to put him to death. equally if he had directly claimed to be the Elijah spoken of by Malachi, they would have accused him of blasphemy somehow.
and interestingly too, they don't ask him if he is the fulfillment of Malachi 4:5, but they ask him if he "is" Elijah -- they see no other possible interpretation of that prophecy but literal reincarnation/resurrection/etc - that is, they expect Elijah himself, not someone in the spirit & power of Elijah; they do not expect the figurative fulfillment that Christ tells us is the right one.

as Jesus says, they do not recognize him for who he is, even tho he quotes Isaiah to them. in the same way they did not know who Jesus is, even though He did so many signs, even those that only the Messiah can do, like casting out a demon from a deaf mute, and healing lepers..

but to your point @justbyfaith technically John denies that he "is Elijah" -- he doesn't deny that he is the fulfillment of Malachi 4:5. and the thing he claims about himself, quoting Isaiah 40:3, is the same spirit of Malachi 4:5 -- which condemns those pharisees who were interrogating him, showing that, as Christ affirms, they did not know him even tho he was among them.
i don't think there is any contradiction here and i don't think John doesn't know who he is, and i don't think John is trying to craftily talk out of both sides of his mouth. John is speaking by the Holy Spirit, and God does not lie.

this may be the answer to the apparent conundrum: Jesus gives the interpretation of Malachi figuratively, and the Pharisees 'who will not receive' expect it to be literal.
i think it is partly from the same perspective, from believing that Malachi's prophecy must be literal, that we have the interpretation, that Elijah himself will literally appear as one of the 2 witnesses, later. so in this OP question, and this topic, we have an implicit fight between two major hermeneutical schools of thought, the dispensationalists who insist everything must be understood literally whenever it can be, and the covenantalists who take many things allegorically. both of these groups criticize each other for their approach to interpreting the scripture, and that mutual criticism plays itself out in the question of the interpretation of Malachi 4:5

 

[justbyfaith]

I am finding that my take on things may not in fact be the reality here; as I have heard responses that I have no answer for.

What does anyone think of the concept that the rapture happens at the juncture of Revelation 11:15-18 and that therefore it happens before the mark, name, and number of the Beast in Revelation 13 and 14?

 

[DavidTree]

one thing probably useful to think about is the context of the conversations in which Jesus calls John that Elijah, and in which John says he is not Elijah...

And His disciples asked Him, saying, “Why then do the scribes say that Elijah must come first?”​

Jesus answered and said to them,​

“Indeed, Elijah is coming first and will restore all things. But I say to you that Elijah has come already, and they did not know him but did to him whatever they wished. Likewise the Son of Man is also about to suffer at their hands.”​

Then the disciples understood that He spoke to them of John the Baptist.​

(Matthew 17:10-13)​

​

they are asking Him why the scribes say Elijah must come first -- and why are the scribes saying that? because they are denying that He is the Christ, and one of their arguments is that Elijah hasn't come, but Malachi says Elijah will come before the Messiah does.
the disciples believe He is the Messiah, that He has come, so they are puzzled about why the scribes are saying this. they think, how can it be that You are the Messiah, when we ain't got the Tishbite calling fire down from heaven to prepare the way for you?

Now this is the testimony of John, when the Jews sent priests and Levites from Jerusalem to ask him, “Who are you?”​

He confessed, and did not deny, but confessed, “I am not the Christ.”​

And they asked him, “What then? Are you Elijah?”​

He said, “I am not.”​

“Are you the Prophet?”​

And he answered, “No.”​

Then they said to him, “Who are you, that we may give an answer to those who sent us? What do you say about yourself?”​

He said: “I am​

‘The voice of one crying in the wilderness:​

“Make straight the way of the Lord,” ’​

as the prophet Isaiah said.”​

Now those who were sent were from the Pharisees. And they asked him, saying, “Why then do you baptize if you are not the Christ, nor Elijah, nor the Prophet?”​

(John 1:19-25)​

​

here we also have the context of the Pharisees, who do not believe his message, asking John to make a claim about himself. it's interesting that the text doesn't say they ask him if he is the Christ, just, 'who are you?' -- but his first response is that he is not the Messiah. so there was a subtext to their coming to him; they are prodding him to see if he is claiming to be the Christ -- for which, no doubt, they would have sought to put him to death. equally if he had directly claimed to be the Elijah spoken of by Malachi, they would have accused him of blasphemy somehow.
and interestingly too, they don't ask him if he is the fulfillment of Malachi 4:5, but they ask him if he "is" Elijah -- they see no other possible interpretation of that prophecy but literal reincarnation/resurrection/etc - that is, they expect Elijah himself, not someone in the spirit & power of Elijah; they do not expect the figurative fulfillment that Christ tells us is the right one.

as Jesus says, they do not recognize him for who he is, even tho he quotes Isaiah to them. in the same way they did not know who Jesus is, even though He did so many signs, even those that only the Messiah can do, like casting out a demon from a deaf mute, and healing lepers..

but to your point @justbyfaith technically John denies that he "is Elijah" -- he doesn't deny that he is the fulfillment of Malachi 4:5. and the thing he claims about himself, quoting Isaiah 40:3, is the same spirit of Malachi 4:5 -- which condemns those pharisees who were interrogating him, showing that, as Christ affirms, they did not know him even tho he was among them.
i don't think there is any contradiction here and i don't think John doesn't know who he is, and i don't think John is trying to craftily talk out of both sides of his mouth. John is speaking by the Holy Spirit, and God does not lie.

this may be the answer to the apparent conundrum: Jesus gives the interpretation of Malachi figuratively, and the Pharisees 'who will not receive' expect it to be literal.
i think it is partly from the same perspective, from believing that Malachi's prophecy must be literal, that we have the interpretation, that Elijah himself will literally appear as one of the 2 witnesses, later. so in this OP question, and this topic, we have an implicit fight between two major hermeneutical schools of thought, the dispensationalists who insist everything must be understood literally whenever it can be, and the covenantalists who take many things allegorically. both of these groups criticize each other for their approach to interpreting the scripture, and that mutual criticism plays itself out in the question of the interpretation of Malachi 4:5

Have you ever considered that some prophesies continue until all things are fulfilled - such as the coming of Elijah.

 

[DavidTree]

I am finding that my take on things may not in fact be the reality here; as I have heard responses that I have no answer for.

What does anyone think of the concept that the rapture happens at the juncture of Revelation 11:15-18 and that therefore it happens before the mark, name, and number of the Beast in Revelation 13 and 14?

One word - IMPOSSIBLE - according to Daniel, the LORD, the Apostles and our LORD'S Revelation.

a better question is can you follow this Eternal Commandment from the LORD Deut 4:1-2, Proverbs 30:5-6 and Revelation 22:18-19

 

[CS1]

speaking of John the baptist, Jesus says:

if ye are willing to receive [it], he is Elijah who was about to come ​

(Matthew 11:14, YLT) ​

what does He mean?
is there 'a different Elijah' for those who are not 'willing to receive' ?

He doesn't say 'if ye are willing to receive' anywhere else, about anything else -- why not?
what is it about John/Elijah that's true if only if we're "willing to receive" it ((him/Him?))?

Hi Postuman what is YLT? Please don't tell me "Your Literal Tranlation"

 

[posthuman]

Hi Postuman what is YLT? Please don't tell me "Your Literal Tranlation"

Young's Literal

gotquestions.org: What is Young’s Literal Translation (YLT)?