IHOP: A Case for Corruption

[Allin]

Regarding the 'it's all about me' personality (or the Jezebel spirit) Joanna M. Ashmun, in writing about Narcissistic Personality Disorder, writes in part about Christian narcissism:

Narcissists I've known also have odd religious ideas, in particular believing that they are God's special favorites somehow; God loves them, so they are exempted from ordinary rules and obligations: God loves them and wants them to be the way they are, so they can do anything they feel like -- though, note, the narcissist's God has much harsher rules for everyone else, including you... "Modern American Christianity is filled with the spirit of narcissism. We are in love with ourselves and evaluate churches, ministers and truth-claims based upon how they make us feel about ourselves. If the church makes me feel wanted, it is a good church. If the minister makes me feel good about myself, he is a terrific guy. If the proffered truth supports my self-esteem, it is, thereby, verified." (Narcissistic Personality Disorder (NPD) : Traits discussed)

The bolded part (bolded on her article) really summarizes one of the main foundational reasons (if not the very cornerstone of the foundation) that charismatic movements and ministries like IHOP (etc.) cannot produce or thrive in anything that is really of God: as 'self' is the very opposite of God and strives against (hates) the Holy Spirit and the Holy Spirit in return hates it, it is a reasonable conclusion to say that any Christian gathering in which the above bolded is fact cannot exhibit any real fruits of the Holy Spirit and cannot produce anything that comes from God. I could prefer that Donald Trump, Bill Gates, and Warren Buffet would turn over their wealth to me just by posting a youtube video asking for them, but preference isn't reality. While many Christians prefer that God will visit and bless their unBiblical activities in settings like IHOP, it will never happen. While natural laws (like physics) can be manipulated for our benefit (we can 'prefer them/shape them into what we want/prefer'), God's laws never have been and never can be. To get revival, the proper steps must be followed: God's glory won't be drawn in on an oxcart, and prophets crying out for God to 'come' and who dance about pleading like the prophets of Baal at Mt. Carmel for fire to fall will, in the same way, get no fire. If we cannot arrive at answers using the Bible, God has made it so we can arrive at them through reason, sense, and visible evidence.

 

[StoneThrower]

something is heretical just means one disagrees. QUOTE]

There are two types of heretics Formal and Material a formal heretic knows he is doing false teaching something outside of Orthodox Christianity, (examples Sevent Day, Mormons, Jw's, Roman Catholics) and persist in it.

A material heretic is someone that speaks in ignorance something that goes against the fundamentals of the faith (Orthodox Christianity), is confronted and stops, repenting of it.
See Theopedia:
Heresy is a teaching or practice which denies one or more essentials of the Christian faith, divides Christians, and deserves condemnation. The term is derived from the Greek word heresies, literally meaning a choice, but referring more specifically to a sect, party or disunion. Luke uses the term in Acts to refer to the sects of the Sadducee's (5:17),Pharisees (15:5; 26:5), and even the Christians - called Nazarenes and the Way (24:5,14; 28:22). When Paul uses the term in 1 Corinthians and Galatians, he refers to the divisions which cause strife in the church, while Peter links the term to false prophets and teachers.
While there is a temptation for Christians to label whatever is not in keeping with sound doctrine as heresy, the Bible seems to make the distinction that heresy is not merely the opposite of orthodoxy. Rather, heresy is a divisive teaching or practice which forces those who call themselves Christians to separate from it or face condemnation for it.John the Apostle gave a prime example of such a doctrine: denying the true nature of the person and work of Jesus Christ (I John 4:1-3; 2 John 1:7-11).

 

[Cee]

This topic has just gone from bad to worse. You've now made sweeping generalizations about entire denominations and moves of God. There is so much wrong with this that its time that I just hang up my hat. As far as the Scriptures you posted neither of them say God was mad at them for praying. The OT says how long will you pray for someone I have rejected? This doesn't mean don't pray for them at all, it means don't pray for something I've said they are no longer the chosen to carry. This is 1. In the OT, which is before so many occurrences that happened due to Christ and 2. Does say He wasn't mad or to never pray for them. The NT Scripture says I'm not saying to pray for them, it doesn't say to not pray for them. But, if you truly think God doesn't want you to pray for people who are deceived then so be it. I can show many more Scriptures that say we should. BUT - anyways I don't see any good from this thread so I'm done.

C.

 

[Allin]

something is heretical just means one disagrees. QUOTE]

There are two types of heretics Formal and Material a formal heretic knows he is doing false teaching something outside of Orthodox Christianity, (examples Sevent Day, Mormons, Jw's, Roman Catholics) and persist in it.

A material heretic is someone that speaks in ignorance something that goes against the fundamentals of the faith (Orthodox Christianity), is confronted and stops, repenting of it.
See Theopedia:
Heresy is a teaching or practice which denies one or more essentials of the Christian faith, divides Christians, and deserves condemnation. The term is derived from the Greek word heresies, literally meaning a choice, but referring more specifically to a sect, party or disunion. Luke uses the term in Acts to refer to the sects of the Sadducee's (5:17),Pharisees (15:5; 26:5), and even the Christians - called Nazarenes and the Way (24:5,14; 28:22). When Paul uses the term in 1 Corinthians and Galatians, he refers to the divisions which cause strife in the church, while Peter links the term to false prophets and teachers.
While there is a temptation for Christians to label whatever is not in keeping with sound doctrine as heresy, the Bible seems to make the distinction that heresy is not merely the opposite of orthodoxy. Rather, heresy is a divisive teaching or practice which forces those who call themselves Christians to separate from it or face condemnation for it.John the Apostle gave a prime example of such a doctrine: denying the true nature of the person and work of Jesus Christ (I John 4:1-3; 2 John 1:7-11).

Good observations. Your links aren't working by the way.

I know two Christians at present who try to bend and twist the meanings of dictionary definitions to fit what they believe; however, I'm impressed with the dictionary's ability to rightly define words. I was talking with one of these people who said that 'understand' phonetically means 'to stand under', implying compliance or subservience. He then said that 'understand' is different from 'comprehend' and went into a treatise on the difference between the two words. He was partially right that 'understand' and 'comprehend' are different; but he missed the fact that the definition of 'understand' is not 'to stand under, comply, submit' but literally 'to apprehend; to grasp; to take in and keep in'. When we understand something, we have captured it (taken it in); it is ours now. We have apprehended it. He also argued that 'intelligent' really means knowledge. I said it means, at the foundation, 'understanding' or literally 'right discernment' (e.g. a baby who is learning to walk by putting one foot in front of the other is intelligent; he/she is showing 'right discernment' or employing the correct method of movement/walking; he 'understands' that walking the way he is works best). When I looked in the dictionary regarding both words ('understand, intelligent'), the dictionary followed the meanings backwards and sure enough arrived at the same definitions for both words.

'Corruption' is another one of those words that needs to be re-defined (need to be used according to it's original meaning). Just like we think "Middle Eastern with rag around head" when we hear 'terrorist' but 'terrorist' fits any number of people and groups by definition, the word 'corruption' brings to mind pictures of people in high levels of leadership or visible leadership: politicians, pastors, actors, famous or 'important people'. But the real definition of ' corrupt' is '(adjective-) guilty of dishonest practices; made inferior by errors or alterations; (verb-) to lower morally; to alter for the worse; to mar, spoil, infect, taint'; (word origin-) to destroy, spoil, bribe, (from rumpere-) to break." According to the definition of 'corrupt', we can say that churches like IHOP, the Vineyard, Morningstar, etc. are definitely 'corrupt' according to the definition as they, by teaching and practice, routinely take part in "denying the true nature of the person and work of Jesus Christ" as you said. If Christians don't show integrity in defining (judging) things rightly, then the world should judge us (better them than God as judgment, beginning at the house of God, is on its way, and we shouldn't hypocritically expect anyone at all to take us seriously.

 

[jag1977]

1A wise son heareth his father's instruction: but a scorner heareth not rebuke.
2A man shall eat good by the fruit of his mouth: but the soul of the transgressors shall eat violence.
3He that keepeth his mouth keepeth his life: but he that openeth wide his lips shall have destruction.
4The soul of the sluggard desireth, and hath nothing: but the soul of the diligent shall be made fat.
5A righteous man hateth lying: but a wicked man is loathsome, and cometh to shame.
6Righteousness keepeth him that is upright in the way: but wickedness overthroweth the sinner.
7There is that maketh himself rich, yet hath nothing: there is that maketh himself poor, yet hath great riches.
8The ransom of a man's life are his riches: but the poor heareth not rebuke.
9The light of the righteous rejoiceth: but the lamp of the wicked shall be put out.
10Only by pride cometh contention: but with the well advised is wisdom.
11Wealth gotten by vanity shall be diminished: but he that gathereth by labour shall increase.
12Hope deferred maketh the heart sick: but when the desire cometh, it is a tree of life.
13Whoso despiseth the word shall be destroyed: but he that feareth the commandment shall be rewarded.
14The law of the wise is a fountain of life, to depart from the snares of death.
15Good understanding giveth favour: but the way of transgressors is hard.
16Every prudent man dealeth with knowledge: but a fool layeth open his folly.
17A wicked messenger falleth into mischief: but a faithful ambassador is health.
18Poverty and shame shall be to him that refuseth instruction: but he that regardeth reproof shall be honoured.
19The desire accomplished is sweet to the soul: but it is abomination to fools to depart from evil.
20He that walketh with wise men shall be wise: but a companion of fools shall be destroyed.
21Evil pursueth sinners: but to the righteous good shall be repayed.
22A good man leaveth an inheritance to his children's children: and the wealth of the sinner is laid up for the just.
23Much food is in the tillage of the poor: but there is that is destroyed for want of judgment.
24He that spareth his rod hateth his son: but he that loveth him chasteneth him betimes.
25The righteous eateth to the satisfying of his soul: but the belly of the wicked shall want.

 

[Allin]

This topic has just gone from bad to worse. You've now made sweeping generalizations about entire denominations and moves of God. There is so much wrong with this that its time that I just hang up my hat. As far as the Scriptures you posted neither of them say God was mad at them for praying. The OT says how long will you pray for someone I have rejected? This doesn't mean don't pray for them at all, it means don't pray for something I've said they are no longer the chosen to carry. This is 1. In the OT, which is before so many occurrences that happened due to Christ and 2. Does say He wasn't mad or to never pray for them. The NT Scripture says I'm not saying to pray for them, it doesn't say to not pray for them. But, if you truly think God doesn't want you to pray for people who are deceived then so be it. I can show many more Scriptures that say we should. BUT - anyways I don't see any good from this thread so I'm done.

C.

One of the greatest ironies in this life is that when kids become teens, parents (and everyone else) are ready to pull out their hair trying to deal with them. Everyone but teens seems to be convinced that teens are rebellious (and many other synonyms at)-- that those seven short years are years of hell for parents and teachers and everyone else who has to deal with teens. But the teen years, while teens seem to be rebellious and do rebel (often because the parents and adults in their lives fail to distinguish control and guidance), the teen years are actually the years when a human being is actually very ripe for God's influence. Now, I'm not talking about the false things that are going on in churches where they say the teens and 'young people' will be the ones to bring revival (etc. etc., but this doctrine isn't supported by the Bible except you twist such instances as when Jonathan's bravery against the Philistines and David's courage against Goliath inaugurated victory for Israel). Teens and young people are supposed to just chill and sit and learn and be mentored; God never made teens to lead anything (though He does what He wants). Teens are easily influenced for and against, and all that glitters tends to be gold to them. I'm not saying that God can 'reach them' because they are so easily reached by everything else. Teen years are where you start forming your own individual identity; who better to guide you in it than God? There are seven years between pre-teen and adult (from 13 to 19); I don't think it's a coincidence. These are the perfect year for God to 'take control' of a life; they can rightly be called 'God's years'.

If adult leaders took time to understand that God actually made the teen years the years when people in general are most open to Him (not talking 'receptive' to Him as little children are but literally 'vulnerable' or 'welcoming' of Him), they would know just how to lead them and make them beautiful adults. But year to year, people get worse and worse as they grow older. They aren't introduced to God and mentored in Him in their teens (not that the teens is the only window; as long as you are alive, God can reform you or guide you). Of course, it takes looking to actually notice this. God has not left satan with the upper hand; He creates things in us, our lives, our existence that He give Him a doorway or ready entrance to our lives (e.g. the fact that while generational sin is only to the third and fourth generation, generational blessing is to many more generations: that's what I call 'a ready entrance' where we see that satan has much less ground to affect people than God does). The teen years fit one of these avenues for God; but satan seems to always hijack and own it, and so many people then believe that it is a problematic time in people's lives. What I say finds credence in the evidence we see on the other side of the coin: teens are basically the hardest to control but the easiest to control, and they flock to churches even when God isn't present. If this trend was to turn and God was present, besides mature adults, I wholly believe that teens would be first to flock to the real God and the genuine Life of Christ (not due to naivete but due to that deposit that God puts in those years to make people open to Him in a way that they usually aren't before or after).

You're old enough to not think like a teen and to be 'a Berean' so that those who are younger than you can learn from you stable principles. John wrote to the little children (who were new in Christ and so had a 'gimme, gimme' expectation from the Father), to the young men (who were spiritual warriors and so had actually continually defeated the enemy in battle), and to the fathers (who were intimately acquainted with the Ancient of Days). Today, many Christians (especially in Charismatic circles) claim they are spiritual young men-- that they are "making war in the heavenlies, casting down every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God"; but according to the Bible's definition of spiritual young men, not up to 90% of those who claim to be 'mighty in battle' really are and would disappear at the first real threat from the enemy. (We see this truth in that for forty straight days, the Israeli army came out against the Philistines, shouting bravely... until Goliath showed up. Everyday this repeated; so it isn't true that those who shout (make noise about being warriors) are really strong.) Such people are usually still little children in Christ, saying, "Gimme, gimme" and still rejoicing about being loved by the Father. With so few young men and even less fathers, how can little children raise little children? You're old enough to be a spiritual young man who has mastered the Word and knows how to mash the enemy's nose when he comes knocking; do you really want to hang out with little children and say things like, "The Bible never says that God tells you to stop praying for people who are deceived"? I recently separated from a minister who can't answer any of my questions as he is still in the 'gimme, gimme' stage, seeking ministry and recognition from people. He is in his fifties, and he still doesn't want to grow up. Today, you can get by with telling a Christian anything but 'grow up' or 'get serious'. Cookie monster was my favorite Sesame Street character, and my friends used to call me "cookie monster" because I loved cookies when I was little. Then I grew up and forgot about Sesame Street.

 

[Allin]

1A wise son heareth his father's instruction: but a scorner heareth not rebuke.
2A man shall eat good by the fruit of his mouth: but the soul of the transgressors shall eat violence.
3He that keepeth his mouth keepeth his life: but he that openeth wide his lips shall have destruction.
4The soul of the sluggard desireth, and hath nothing: but the soul of the diligent shall be made fat.
5A righteous man hateth lying: but a wicked man is loathsome, and cometh to shame.
6Righteousness keepeth him that is upright in the way: but wickedness overthroweth the sinner.
7There is that maketh himself rich, yet hath nothing: there is that maketh himself poor, yet hath great riches.
8The ransom of a man's life are his riches: but the poor heareth not rebuke.
9The light of the righteous rejoiceth: but the lamp of the wicked shall be put out.
10Only by pride cometh contention: but with the well advised is wisdom.
11Wealth gotten by vanity shall be diminished: but he that gathereth by labour shall increase.
12Hope deferred maketh the heart sick: but when the desire cometh, it is a tree of life.
13Whoso despiseth the word shall be destroyed: but he that feareth the commandment shall be rewarded.
14The law of the wise is a fountain of life, to depart from the snares of death.
15Good understanding giveth favour: but the way of transgressors is hard.
16Every prudent man dealeth with knowledge: but a fool layeth open his folly.
17A wicked messenger falleth into mischief: but a faithful ambassador is health.
18Poverty and shame shall be to him that refuseth instruction: but he that regardeth reproof shall be honoured.
19The desire accomplished is sweet to the soul: but it is abomination to fools to depart from evil.
20He that walketh with wise men shall be wise: but a companion of fools shall be destroyed.
21Evil pursueth sinners: but to the righteous good shall be repayed.
22A good man leaveth an inheritance to his children's children: and the wealth of the sinner is laid up for the just.
23Much food is in the tillage of the poor: but there is that is destroyed for want of judgment.
24He that spareth his rod hateth his son: but he that loveth him chasteneth him betimes.
25The righteous eateth to the satisfying of his soul: but the belly of the wicked shall want.

All very much true. I don't think many people hover a second over the Book of Proverbs. I like these: "The soul of the sluggard desires, and has nothing: but the soul of the diligent will be made fat... Good understanding gives favor: but the way of transgressors is hard." The way of transgressors is definitely hard. All those sayings are much too important to be continually overlooked by so many.

 

[PeterJens]

How do you judge any movement? Look at how they deal with the weakest and most needy members. Look at the behaviour of their leaders. Compare what they approve of, their morals, and see what they actually do. Jesus came with a message of love transforms the soul, it is the heart of eternity. Young people often feel alone, isolated, without direction and desire so deeply a great mission in life. IHOP etc delivers to them a message they matter as long as they give total devotion and submission to the leadership because they have the vision. It is a lie. The vision has always been just one thing, to learn how to love from the heart, to open up from within, to be humble and care, not manipulate, but desire the best for all those you meet. What you see here is slavery to a vision, discipline and openness, where other people have rights to possess other peoples lives. Jesus calls us to be individuals, mature, driven by love who freely give, because they want to. To these people it should have shocked them that a manipulative powerful young gay man was determined to get married, to create an artificial overly involved group, where the group dominated, without fear that the young woman involved would blame herself for failure, when she is an innocent to the slaughter. So sad, such suffering and grief, and yet so many are walking into the same trap.....

 

[Jeff_56]

previous post, just above... "How do you judge any movement? Look at how they deal with the weakest and most needy members. Look at the behaviour of their leaders. Compare what they approve of, their morals, and see what they actually do..... "

so judge, or so test, the vineyard; others who have been there have for the last ten years posted many things in error (pointed out along the way; they didn't care nor listen).....

yet 'feel' good. even when not in agreement with Scripture.