Imputed Righteousness of Christ

eternally-gratefull · Feb 25, 2013

I like the examples of prophets who fell on their faces in fear at the sight of even an angel, knowing they were not worthy to be where they were. because of their own sin..

and how these people think they can be righteous enough to stand in front of God almighty and not be cast out or obliterated is beyond me.

if these great righteous men of God could not do it.. what makes these people think they could?

it boggles my mind.

eternally-gratefull · Feb 25, 2013

Skinski7 said:

so tell us, why do you preach a faith in self? and not a faith in God? who has cleansed us from all unrighteousness, made us clean, Given us eternal life. Adopted us into his family where we now can call him Abba. etc etc.

why do you still teach a spirit of fear?

Skinski7 · Feb 25, 2013

eternally-gratefull said:

Ecc 12:13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.

2Co 5:9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.
2Co 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
2Co 5:11 Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.
2Co 5:12 For we commend not ourselves again unto you, but give you occasion to glory on our behalf, that ye may have somewhat to answer them which glory in appearance, and not in heart.
2Co 5:13 For whether we be beside ourselves, it is to God: or whether we be sober, it is for your cause.
2Co 5:14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:
2Co 5:15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.
2Co 5:16 Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.
2Co 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

There is no salvation in sin. Not a single soul who is in any form of rebellion to God is going to enter into the kingdom. There are mutlitudes of false teachers everywhere who teach otherwise.

eternally-gratefull · Feb 25, 2013

Skinski7 said:

Then no one will ever be saved. Thanks for the gospel of no hope..

For if we say we are without sin, we deceive ourselves, and there IS NO TRUTH IN US.

God did not save us just from ourselves and our unholy lifestyles. he had to save us from condemnation first. for we are alienated from him.. because of sin, and could not even relate to him, or know how to do what is right. So first he had to break the barrier between us and him. Then he gave us his spirit as a guarantee. who helps us grow in the love of him,, which helps us mature. But we will never be perfect here on earth.

Yes. God will not save people who have never repented, but have mere belief, proven by the fact they show no works, no changed lives, and continue to live deep in sin. But that is not the context of this thread.. The context is, Did God gives us the righteousness of Christ, or did he not..

The fact is, he did, if he has not.. we can obey the commands all we want, we will still be lost in our sin. Payment for sin must be paid first.. otherwise,, our righteousness means nothing to him.

WE CAN NOT PAY FOR OUR OWN SIN DEBT.. If you continue to try, you will fail miserably!

psychomom · Feb 25, 2013

Skinski7 said:

faith in what, Scott? faith in our own works? our own 'righteousness'?

FAITH IN WHAT?

Faith in God.

Look at how clear it is....

Heb 11:8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.

Abraham simply entrusted his well being to God. God said "do this" and Abraham said "yes Lord."

Abraham trusted his Creator COMPLETELY. He was fully yielded to his Creator.

Faith - G4102 - pistis
From G3982; persuasion, that is, credence; moral conviction (of religious truth, or the truthfulness of God or a religious teacher), especially reliance upon Christ for salvation; abstractly constancy in such profession; by extension the system of religious (Gospel) truth itself: - assurance, belief, believe, faith, fidelity.

Look at this passage...

Rom 4:16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,
Rom 4:17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.
Rom 4:18 Who against hope believed in hope, that he might become the father of many nations, according to that which was spoken, So shall thy seed be.
Rom 4:19 And being not weak in faith, he considered not his own body now dead, when he was about an hundred years old, neither yet the deadness of Sara's womb:
Rom 4:20 He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;
Rom 4:21 And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.
Rom 4:22 And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.
Rom 4:23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him;
Rom 4:24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;

Saving faith is being FULLY PERSUADED in the mind and thus having COMPLETE TRUST in God by which we YIELD COMPLETELY and thus DO what God tells us to do. God reckons that kind of faith as righteousness.

Not works, not our own righteousness, nothing that we have done, simply WALKING WITH GOD because WE TRULY BELIEVE HIM. We entrust ourselves to God.

Unbelief or disobedience is the opposite.

Unbelief - G570 - apistia
From G571; faithlessness, that is, (negatively) disbelief (want of Christian faith), or (positively) unfaithfulness (disobedience): - unbelief.

This is why God is the author of the salvation of those who obey Him. Obedience is Faith. It is the exact same thing. There is no such thing as rebellion to God in saving faith.

Look at this passage...

Jas 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
Jas 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
Jas 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
Jas 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
Jas 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
Jas 2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
Jas 2:23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
Jas 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

Saving faith is ACTIVE. Saving faith WORKS. Saving faith = Obedient Faith. Abraham was justified by a faith whereby he was TOTALLY CONVINCED that God had his best interests in mind and thus even though he may not have understood why God told him to kill his son he nevertheless TRUSTED GOD and OBEYED.

Abraham BELIEVED God. That belief produced OBEDIENT ACTION. God therefore counted this faith/belief as righteousness.

It is so simple.

It has NOTHING to do with some judicial transfer like the Reformed Theologians teach. They twist the scriptures and read their doctrine into it. The Bible plainly states that FAITH IS IMPUTED AS RIGHTEOUSNESS.

The question is do we actually believe what the Bible says or do we prefer to cling to the doctrines of men and suppress the plain truth.

wow...so i read all that. many inches of text, and not ONE word of the Person and Work of the Lord Jesus Christ.
nebulous 'faith in God' shows me just how far from comprehending the Truth of the Gospel of Jesus you really are, Scott.

if you would follow the story of Abraham to its conclusion, you might find the truth of the Gospel there, too.

i still do not know what you place your faith in. in the fact God is?
do you think that's enough?

Skinski7 · Feb 25, 2013

psychomom said:

The question was about Abraham and thus I referred to the scriptures which deal with Abraham.

Go through my writings and you will find plenty of references to Jesus Christ and abiding in Him. Many times I have plainly stated that we must abide in Him otherwise we can do nothing. Many times I speak of how it is God that quickens us, that it is God who raises us up.

What you do is "nit-pick" some issue and completely ignore the actual theme of my writings.

Abraham placed his faith in God, he placed his faith in the promise which was Jesus Christ. Abraham did not know the name "Jesus Christ" but he knew THE WORD for Abraham was fully yielded to that implanted word which IS CHRIST for Jesus Christ is the outward manifestation of God to us just as a ray of sunlight proceeds forth from the sun. Jesus is the Word. The Word was made flesh. The Word had not yet been made flesh in the day of Abraham, yet before Abraham was the Word was already pre-existant (I Am).

Strip the long words and what is my message?

Forsake evil and turn, trust and yield to God. It is through yielding to God from the heart that we are empowered (by God) to a victory over the world, the flesh and the devil.

Is that what they are preaching in the churches when pastors teach you just "trust, confess and receive" and then you "wait on God to clean you up" whereby ongoing sin is tolerated.

Everyday I go to people's houses for jobs. Generally 2-3 houses a day. I live in the Bible Belt and the majority of people where I live profess to be a Christian and attend a church. Yet these houses I go into I see a lot of worldliness, filthy movies, immoral music, sports shrines. Many of these people are very nice people, I like them, yet they know not God. They believe that they are saved because "they trust in Jesus" and they "trust in the finished work on the cross."

I have attended many of the churches they attend and they do not preach the strait gate and narrow way. They do not preach the crucifixion of the flesh. They do not teach that is is essential to depart from iniquity.

They basically teach that you are born a sinner and that your sin separates you from God. They teach that Jesus died on the cross to pay the penalty for your sins. They teach that if you confess your sins and trust in what Jesus did on the cross then you will be saved. They present lots of sermons about morality and how God wants the best for us and that if we obey him things will go well for us, yet they NEVER connect HOLINESS with SALVATION. Holy living is always "subsequent" to salvation.

I have gone and sat down with quite a few of these pastors and I have emailed and corresponded with all the others. I contacted practically every single pastor in my time to discuss these issues. Every single one of them believes that one can be addicted to pornography and saved at the same time. They believe you get saved first via the abstract legal transaction and THEN God starts to work with you so you can give up the vile sins of the flesh.

It is a false Gospel.

Jesus preached the Sermon on the Mount and at the VERY END of that sermon He gave this warning...

Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

MANY. MANY. MANY.

Many people are who THINK they are saved are going to come before the Lord and profess "Lord, Lord, I did this and I did that, all in your name." Jesus will say to these MANY PEOPLE "depart from me YOU WHO WORK INIQUITY."

Jesus even describes these people as WORKERS OF INIQUITY. In other words they were still producing the fruit of iniquity in their lives while they professed Jesus as Lord.

This is EXACTLY what is occurring in the churches. The Churches are full of people who profess Jesus, who "trust in the finished work on the cross" yet WHO WORK INIQUITY. Their teachers tell them they are saved it's just that God has not finished with them yet, so don't let the devil make them doubt their assurance.

I listen to Moody Bible Radio when I work sometimes and I hear the same message. "We are sinners saved by grace," "we will always be sinning until we get our glorified bodies," "people may be in bondage to sin but God knows the heart." On and on and on. All the Gospel is to these people is a cloak for ongoing rebellion and as long as you are generally nice to people and there is some improvement in your life (as long as you are not out killing people and robbing banks etc.) then you can have assurance of salvation. They have a form of godliness, a form of morality, a form of righteousness, yet it is a DOUBLE-MINDED SERVING TWO MASTERS form. Jesus taught that the EYE MUST BE SINGLE in order for the body to be full of light and then Jesus warned that A LIGHT CAN BE IN YOU WHICH IS ACTUALLY DARKNESS and if this is so then HOW GREAT IS THAT DARKNESS. That is probably one of the most succinct warnings of Jesus about deception.

The Romans Road is Deadly
[video=youtube;wFSUKqNVCVA]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wFSUKqNVCVA[/video]

Ariel82 · Feb 25, 2013

I listened to a sermon that said that NO ONE except the HOLY SPIRIT could tell a person if they were saved or not. if people do NOT have the testimony of the Holy Spirit to their salvation and are not lead by the Holy Spirit, then it doesn't matter what anyone else assures them. they are not saved.

anyway Skinski did you see the verses about God's Righteousness and my question about whose Righteousness is our breastplate to guard us against attacks of the enemy?

it might have been lost a few pages back.

Abiding · Feb 25, 2013

Are we allowed to come to the feast with our own garments?

Ariel82 · Feb 25, 2013

no the message is not "Repent and Obey"

It is "Repent, Believe in the Finished work of JESUS Christ on the Cross, be saved (remission of sins), and obey (do the good works God preordained for you to do) "

as the video says half the truth is STILL a lie.

if a church just teaches "believe and be saved" with no repentance before or works after (fruit) then they lie

If a person just teaches "repent and obey" then they lie and teach the Law without the Gospel message at all.

www.dividingword.net ? oh its another one of Those websites...

sigh...

Isaiah 64

peacefulbeliever · Feb 25, 2013

I didn't read the whole thread (some posts are toooo long) so forgive me if I repeat but hey, maybe I can just reiterate!

To impute means to reckon, to count, compute, calculate; to pass to one's account.

With that said: Romans 4:3-5 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God and it was counted unto him for righteousness. Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. . 9) Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness. . . .11) And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also.

Romans 4:20-24 He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God; And being fully persuaded that what he had promised, he was able also to perform. And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness. Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him; But for us also to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead. . . .

BTW, this righteousness is the righteousness of God: Romans 3:21,22 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference

psychomom · Feb 26, 2013

Skinski7 said:

You are concerned for the downhill slide of the Church, I see that.
You believe there is a false gospel being taught, I see that, too, (though you are the one teaching it).

I have never seen any church teach the things you say, but then, I've only been across these Unites States, and not to thousands of churches all around the world.
You have?

Yes, the strait gate, Who is the Lord Jesus--The Way, The Only Way to God.
And holy living is subsequent to salvation, Scott, because we must be empowered by God for it.

Here, as I understand it, is your 'gospel':
-realize how depraved you are. on your own, just see it. (not that you were born a sinner, but you certainly are depraved now)

-stop ALL sin, in your own strength and power. oh, but only willful sin, since that's the only sin that matters to God. God understands that there will be 'unwillful' sin, and the thought life of sin, so long as it doesn't become a deed, is okay with God. or at least not dreadful enough for Him to count it.

-perhaps, if you do that well enough, and continue to do it each moment of every day for the rest of your life, and oh, yeah, throw in believe in Jesus, God may save you. (God will not even consider saving you till you have forsaken sin)

-Jesus humiliated Himself to become a human man, lived among us for 33 years, and then was arrested, scourged, beaten to the point his face was unrecognizable as belonging to a man, and died a bloody, bloody death on a cross on passover to accomplish.....??
the way for you to forsake all willful sin in your own power?

I'm glad the Lord Jesus got a mention, and I am not trying to nit-pick. I am trying to understand, according to your gospel, what He did for the believer; for the one who places their trust (believes) in Him. You once told me how you would present the Gospel to someone. It was pretty scary, as I recall, but I'll try to find it and check.

So far as I can see right now, since we have the power for completely forsake sin without Him, what Christ did was pay a debt owed to satan for the sin we commit. Please correct that if I am wrong.

Okay, so we have faith in Jesus, that's great. But my question remains, faith in what?
What did He have to come and die for, since it wasn't what I thought?

Skinski7 · Feb 26, 2013

My comments in Green...

psychomom said:

You are concerned for the downhill slide of the Church, I see that.
You believe there is a false gospel being taught, I see that, too, (though you are the one teaching it).

I have never seen any church teach the things you say, but then, I've only been across these Unites States, and not to thousands of churches all around the world. When pastors teach that one does not have to forsake the sins of the flesh BEFORE forgiveness is granted they are preaching a false Gospel. They are preaching a false Grace. They do not preach Saving Faith. I have multitudes of emails from pastors specifically expounding that one can be in a continual state of sinning and yet saved at the very same time. Many pastors believe this, I have even posted quite a few of these emails on this forums.

You have?

Yes, the strait gate, Who is the Lord Jesus--The Way, The Only Way to God.
And holy living is subsequent to salvation, Scott, because we must be empowered by God for it. Salvation and Holy living go together. It is no subsequent or something that happens later on. The Prodigal Son left the pig pen and was walking in the light when the father restored him. He did no approach his father IN the filth of his rebellion, he forsook the rebellion. Indeed walking in the love of God is something that occurs when we are raised up and not before but for the rebellion has already ceased prior due to being broken in godly sorrow which worked a genuine change of mind and thus a genuine conversion.

Here, as I understand it, is your 'gospel':
-realize how depraved you are. on your own, just see it. (not that you were born a sinner, but you certainly are depraved now) The Holy Spirit brings conviction.whereby the sinner is brought to a crisis in their soul by which they forsake their rebellion through being broken on the rock of Christ. The grain of wheat must die before it can bear the fruit of righteousness and the old wine skins must be put off in order that new skins be filled with new wine.

-stop ALL sin, in your own strength and power. oh, but only willful sin, since that's the only sin that matters to God. God understands that there will be 'unwillful' sin, and the thought life of sin, so long as it doesn't become a deed, is okay with God. or at least not dreadful enough for Him to count it. The thought life of sin end in repentance. The heart is purged of iniquity (the seed of rebellion) through being utterly broken on the rock of Christ. Sure there may be "bad thoughts" ie. "temptations" because the pattern of sin is hard-wired in a sinner, which is why the Bible teaches that we are to renew our minds and bring every thought into subjection to Christ. The mind then becomes hard-wired to God. A repentant sinner is not in rebellion.

For example when I see a beautiful women who is dressed sensually an evil thought can enter into my mind yet I immediately bring my mind into subjection to Christ. The temptation is not the sin, yielding to the temptation is the sin. If I were to "roll with the thought" and "let it grow" then that would be adultery in the mind. Christian's keep themselves by the power of God and RULE OVER sin.

-perhaps, if you do that well enough, and continue to do it each moment of every day for the rest of your life, and oh, yeah, throw in believe in Jesus, God may save you. (God will not even consider saving you till you have forsaken sin) It is called WALKING IN THE SPIRIT.

-Jesus humiliated Himself to become a human man, lived among us for 33 years, and then was arrested, scourged, beaten to the point his face was unrecognizable as belonging to a man, and died a bloody, bloody death on a cross on passover to accomplish.....??
the way for you to forsake all willful sin in your own power? Every human being has the ability to forsake their sin. Even non-believers forsake various sins all the time due to coming to a realisation how destructive it is to their loved ones and themselves. How do you think Nineveh forsook their sin? Did they have to be saved first? Come on use your reason. Nineveh were broken in godly sorrow through the preaching of Noah. Likewise a sinner is broken through the influence of the Holy Spirit (if they yield and do not suppress it.) The Holy Spirit is in the world convicting of sin, righteousness and judgement. It is manifested through the Bible, preachers, our conscience etc. The Holy Spirit won't actually indwell someone unless they first yield to God from the heart which is why God gives it to those who obey Him (Act 5:32).

I'm glad the Lord Jesus got a mention, and I am not trying to nit-pick. I am trying to understand, according to your gospel, what He did for the believer; for the one who places their trust (believes) in Him. You once told me how you would present the Gospel to someone. It was pretty scary, as I recall, but I'll try to find it and check. Read the book of Acts. They did not preach "trust in the finished work of Christ." They preached "repent and believe the Gospel." Yes Jesus did a work for us on the cross but it can ONLY BE ACCESSED through repentance and faith. A repentance where the rebellion ceases and a faith which is a dynamic where one is YIELDED COMPLETELY to God like Abraham was. Nothing less will suffice. This false Gospel of simply "confess, trust and receive" is a false PACKAGE salvation is is purely ABSTRACT and IMAGINARY. The heart is not made pure but is simply cloaked with a perceived notion of being cleansed. It is utterly Satanic. Look around you and professing Christian's love the world and the things of the world and the church system is FULL OF SIN. Look at the celebrity preachers who are LOVED BY THE WORLD. You really believe that are preaching the message of Jesus? OPEN YOUR EYES.

So far as I can see right now, since we have the power for completely forsake sin without Him, what Christ did was pay a debt owed to satan for the sin we commit. Please correct that if I am wrong. Pure fallacy. We don't do ANYTHING without Him. This "total inability" rooted in the doctrine of "Original Sin" dominates your mind and thus you cannot perceive that men have the ability to obey God. The grace of God has appeared to ALL MEN and Jesus Christ lights EVERYONE who comes into the world. The job of a human being is to stop suppressing that light (because they love sin) and to instead yield to it. The power to "not sin" is in YIELDING TO THE LIGHT. Hence why Paul wrote that people were set free from obeying from the heart (Rom 6:17-18).

Okay, so we have faith in Jesus, that's great. But my question remains, faith in what? Faith in the cross, faith in the blood, also having the active dynamic of a faith that works by love which upholds the righteousness of the law by which we fulfill by walking after the Spirit. NOT faith as in "trusting in a provision" (ie. the judicial transfer of Penal Substitution) while one REMAINS defiled and in bondage.
What did He have to come and die for, since it wasn't what I thought? To redeem us from ALL INIQUITY and to MAKE US PURE. To SET US FREE FROM SIN that we may be RECONCILED TO GOD having been CLEANSED.

homwardbound · Feb 26, 2013

Ariel82 said:

as a baby in a womb is dependent on Mom 100%.the baby breathes because Mom does the baqby eats because Mom does, the bay lives because Mom does, without Mom the baby will die, and the Baby is surrounded in water this whole time and only fish live in water.
Therefore if anyone could talk to a baby while in the womb the baby would say I am crucified never the less I live because Mom lives for me'
This is what we are to become as if back in the womb except this womb is having Christ the righteous imputed into us with a spiritual ambicical Cord not physical through the Holy Ghost who he sent to be with every believer to teach us truth first that we can do nothing on our own and need otbe connectedf to him through Faith in him and recieve the imputed righteousness as a free gift and we respond with all glory to God period. I am teaching we are to be innerdependant 100% on God the Son God the Father and God the Holy Ghost all three as one just shown to us in differant forms but all as one like an egg the shell is Christ the white is the Holy Ghost and the yoke if Father if an egg is broken it is no longer an egg it takes all three to be one egg

homwardbound · Feb 26, 2013

eternally-gratefull said:

Even if anyone after Salvation did crucify the flesh and always walked in love God's type thier to me wouldstill be no credit to that person(s) forno matter waht I know I need God as Paul said therefore he would glory in his iniquities and this was not to promote sin nor to become perfect in and of self ever, but to glory in that no matter what I need CHrist, Father and Holy Ghost to tell me what is needed for me to do and that is be a seed planter and or waterer knowing that God will give the increase
God does lead his believers children into his perfection not our own ever, this way thier is no room for boasting or pride and is why Paul wrote 2 Cor 12:7 and on about it and whywe need to glory in Father through Christ, because without anyone admitting they are weak then God will not be shown as strong. We first born in the flesh are born as Gods and taught to be God of ourselves independant and do good in order to get good. And this world is emnity towards God. So no matter how mature any of us grows to me it amkes meall the weaker and that makes Father strong to the point now that I worship God in God's strength forsaking any of my world taught strength how about anyone else

homwardbound · Feb 26, 2013

Ariel82 said:

It is MERCY that we have been given our debt was cancelled nailed to the cross, whoare we to go and condemen anyone, yet I agree to tell the truth in iots simplest form GOD JUST LOVE YOU, YOU AND YOU

zone · Feb 26, 2013

psychomom said:

You are concerned for the downhill slide of the Church, I see that.
You believe there is a false gospel being taught, I see that, too, (though you are the one teaching it).

I have never seen any church teach the things you say, but then, I've only been across these Unites States, and not to thousands of churches all around the world.
You have?

Yes, the strait gate, Who is the Lord Jesus--The Way, The Only Way to God.
And holy living is subsequent to salvation, Scott, because we must be empowered by God for it.

Here, as I understand it, is your 'gospel':
-realize how depraved you are. on your own, just see it. (not that you were born a sinner, but you certainly are depraved now)

-stop ALL sin, in your own strength and power. oh, but only willful sin, since that's the only sin that matters to God. God understands that there will be 'unwillful' sin, and the thought life of sin, so long as it doesn't become a deed, is okay with God. or at least not dreadful enough for Him to count it.

-perhaps, if you do that well enough, and continue to do it each moment of every day for the rest of your life, and oh, yeah, throw in believe in Jesus, God may save you. (God will not even consider saving you till you have forsaken sin)

-Jesus humiliated Himself to become a human man, lived among us for 33 years, and then was arrested, scourged, beaten to the point his face was unrecognizable as belonging to a man, and died a bloody, bloody death on a cross on passover to accomplish.....??
the way for you to forsake all willful sin in your own power?

I'm glad the Lord Jesus got a mention, and I am not trying to nit-pick. I am trying to understand, according to your gospel, what He did for the believer; for the one who places their trust (believes) in Him. You once told me how you would present the Gospel to someone. It was pretty scary, as I recall, but I'll try to find it and check.

So far as I can see right now, since we have the power for completely forsake sin without Him, what Christ did was pay a debt owed to satan for the sin we commit. Please correct that if I am wrong.

Okay, so we have faith in Jesus, that's great. But my question remains, faith in what?
What did He have to come and die for, since it wasn't what I thought?

i love you ellie.

Ariel82 · Feb 26, 2013

Ariel82 said:

Still waiting semi patiently............

zone · Feb 26, 2013

Skinski7 said:

Luke 18
The Pharisee and the Tax Collector
9He also told this parable to some who trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and treated others with contempt: 10“Two men went up into the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11The Pharisee, standing by himself, prayed thus: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other men, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even like this tax collector. 12I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I get.’ 13 But the tax collector, standing far off, would not even lift up his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me, a sinner!’ 14I tell you, this man went down to his house justified, rather than the other. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but the one who humbles himself will be exalted.”

‘God, be merciful to me, a sinner!’

this man went down to his house justified, rather than the other.

dikaioó: to show to be righteous, declare righteous
Original Word: δικαιόω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: dikaioó
Phonetic Spelling: (dik-ah-yo'-o)
Short Definition: I make righteous, defend the cause of, justify
Definition: I make righteous, defend the cause of, plead for the righteousness (innocence) of, acquit, justify; hence: I regard as righteous.

Cognate: 1344 dikaióō (from dikē, "right, judicial-approval") – properly, approved, especially in a legal, authoritative sense; to show what is right, i.e. conformed to a proper standard (i.e. "upright")

homwardbound · Feb 26, 2013

Ariel82 said:

Because Flesh being Born as God and taught from Birth on to be God refuses to not be God and always wars against the Spirit until one believes by and through God that they are dead to sinful flesh (the Carnal mind set) via the cross of christ once this is finalized then they know truth from error and discern it by them listening to God From the holy Ghost that resides in them that inner amn of the heart where one always serves God from, this is where I want to stay at and God is able to perform this in all that ask him for this just do not give up on trusting him to do this and it will be, until one gets pride in the way and then a messenger od Satan will buffet you as Paul so well descibed in 2 Cor 12
So untl a person comes t the end of the energy of thier own flesh and see there is no way for them to have righteousness of thier own ever then they will seek for the imputed righteousness that comes from Christ Jesus at the resurrection not the death delievered by The Holy Ghost, and then recieve the new life that Christ came to give living then by the inner man constant and thus doing as directed in the love of Father and son

homwardbound · Feb 26, 2013

tribesman said:

Actually it is a matter of double imputation.

The sins of the elect were imputed to Christ, so Christ became guilty in His person for the sins of His people and was justly punished for those sins, though He was perfectly sinless (2Cor.5:21, Isa.53:4-6, 1Petr.2:24).

The righteousness of Christ was imputed to His people, thereby His people was made righteous in the person of their substitute and are therefore acceptable before God, even though they are not perfectly sinless (2Cor.5:21, Rom.5:19).

If one does not believe in salvation by this imputed righteousness, then one obviously believes in salvation by a righteousness of his own. It has to be one of them two and not both at the same time. They can never mix.

Hence in Rom.10:3, God states that those who are ignorant of God's righteousness are lost since they are yet going about to establish their own righteousness. What is this righteousness of God that is so crucially important that those who are ignorant about it are said to be lost? Rom. 1:17 says that the gospel reveals God's righteousness.

One key passage that gives more information about this subject is found in Romans 3:

Now, let's look at Psalm 32:

Back to Paul in Romans 4:

Clearly David was talking about the blessedness of the man to whom God not only does not impute iniquity but also does impute righteousness apart from works. The perfect righteousness of Christ is imputed or legally charged to God's people, and David, just as all Old Testament Saints, believed this. Psalm 32:1-2 shows us that the atoning blood is that by which our transgressions are lifted and our sins covered. The imputed righteousness is that by which we are declared righteous before God. Same principle in OT as NT.

To affirm the biblical principle of imputed righteousness is very important when refuting justification by works since it clearly shows that justification is by something wholly outside of the efforts of man which causes God to declare us righteous. Works- and self righteousness advocates, who are unregenerate and do not believe the gospel, always oppose and hate the doctrine of imputed righteousness. Because, even they, understands that, if true, it means there is no space to boast left for man.

The gospel reveals how God is just when He justifies the ungodly. It reveals God as a "just God and a Saviour" (Isa.45:21). Any other "gospel" that reveals God to be neither a just God nor a Savior is a false gospel. The true and living God is one who does not show love, mercy, and grace at the expense of His justice. The righteous demands of His Law must be completely satisfied for all those whom He shows love, mercy and grace. And the true Christ established such a righteousness that demands the salvation of all those whom He represented.

And King David said entering his courts with thanksgiving and praise for he saw afar off the last sacrifce and last shedding of blood being executed and therefre woul;d recieve as well as recieved by belief the imputed righteousness through faith in Christ before it ever took place and today we arelooking back at what has already taken place love waht you wrote above trbesman

Imputed Righteousness of Christ

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