Inbetween WAR and PEACE

[thefightinglamb]

I am not sure if I am a pacifist Christian or not....sometimes I believe that pacifists are just cowards that are unwilling or too weak to stand up for what they believe in.

So, as I am trying to rememorize Psallm 89 today, I was reading the thread on the crusades, and I began to contemplate a belief I have held that "Christians should never participate in 'worldly' wars...meaning wars involving guns and deadly weapons of that sort.

My belief seems to have been founded on the belief that 'how can you do good to your enemy when you are trying to kill them?" Or more precisely, "if a Christian army is fighty a non-Christian army, is not the Christian army sending the non-Christian army direct to hell?" Would it not be better if the Christian army died, and went to heaven, and gave the non-Christian army more time for repentence? Did Jesus not say, "those who live by the sword will die by the sword"? Modern translation: those who live by the gun will die by the gun? How obscure is it for a Christian to die for their nation and all of the corrupt motives that may be involved in a war?

Anyway, those were my thoughts...but then there is the direct response that has to be considered, Jesus said 'turn the other cheek' but the New Testament also says "Religion that GOd our Father accounts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world." I was thinking of a different translation of this verse I have read before, but here it states what I am trying to get at clandestinely...but clearly, as the Psalms say over and over again "defend the weak and the needy: the oppressed and the afflicted."

My meaning is here, I understand that I am suppose to turn the other cheek when someone slaps me, but when someone slaps the weak or the needy, I do not believe I am suppose to stand by and watch...I believe action is warranted here in whatever means I can offer. For example, I see a kid getting jumped by like three other kids, I am not suppose to just let the kid possibly get killed, but I am suppose to either assert my Christian authority to stop the situation through Christ, or if necessary defend the kid by beating the other kids off him by whatever means necessary.

This has wide ramifications...For example, Russia and the way it ramsacked that other smaller nation not long ago (I forget its name)...is it right to stand by and let a peaceful nation be ramsacked by another nation, or should a nation that has the authority to defend the peaceful nation try to stop the action by whatever means necessary as a Christian duty???

Or like in Africa where I have read that like 40,000 girls get raped everyday by gangs...is it right for a "Christian pacifist" to just standby and pray that away...or should they not take up a gun and kill the uncircumcised phillistines--meaning the rapists...I am tending towards the belief of picking up the gun myself...should a Christian nation just silently watch and pray for this to cease? Or is it not a CHRISTIAN DUTY to fight for these oppressed?

Could Iraq as a war been defended on solely Christian grounds? There were the afflicted and oppressed in that country as everyone admits before the war to an unbelievable extant...was it not right to defend them? Has not the war done that?

And what about this gang 'the taliban' could not their violent overthrow of of cities in Iran alone call for a CHRISTIAN duty to defend the oppressed??? I think so...and I think Christians should not be slack in either picking up the word of God or the sword (gun) to defend those who cannot defend themselves...

I thnk I have made a breakthrough here in my beliefs...I do think physical war can be justified (someone in my philosophy senior seminar said war can never be justified, I guess she was wrong) on the grounds of CHRISTIAN principles, mainly the belief that in order to protect orphans, widows, the weak, the need, the oppressed, or the afflicted, it is sometimes necessary to use physical force...especially on those brutes that have become so blinded and deaf that the only they fell is physical pleasure or pain...

My belifs, but lets discuss.

And may the Lord alwas be our sword and shield,
defending those who call upon Him.

Tony

 

[MahogonySnail]

Does scripture anywhere forbid fighting in a war?

 

[thefightinglamb]

a lot of typos grrr...

I also thought of how Jesus let himself be crucified, but demanded that his apostles be let go when the soldiers came for him...

 

[thefightinglamb]

Fighting in a war seems to contradict some Christian principles, as I have noted, most notably 'loving your enemy'.

 

[Groundhog]

If pacifists are cowards then Jesus was a coward.

 

[thefightinglamb]

Groundhog, thats not true that Jesus was a pacifist...HE surely seemed to take action to defend the oppressed in his own life...the women caught in adultery comes to mind...but also as I said before, when Jesus was arrested, He demanded that his disciples be let go...which seems to suggest he would and did defend them by giving up his life...oh yeah, and most interestingly, how not pacifistly he was in driving the money changers and sellers out of his Father's house--I am almost sure He hit one of them with the chord, unless you think he just swung at the air which I find inplaussible

But you really think it's Christian to stand by and watch a woman get raped, or someone being beaten to death and to claim that Jesus was a pacifist in defence? Perhaops you believe that you should let yourself be raped and beat as well instead of DEFENDING them which often requires physical force...

 

[Cup-of-Ruin]

Fighting in a war seems to contradict some Christian principles, as I have noted, most notably 'loving your enemy'.

How many times are people going to quote this as a support for pacifism?

Sermon on the Mount!

Address to early diciples - all Christians at that time, there is to be no enemies in the body of Christ, before Christ's ministry, there existed many division and conflicts within the tribes of Israel and Judah...Jesus adresses this on Sermon on the Mount - there are to be no enemies within My body, how can a house stand if it is divided? It cannot, however we know that Jesus brought division not only amongst tribes and nations but within own families! And what is the division? Well the division is between those that are in Christ and those whom are not! Don't you know there is a gulf a great chasm that exists between Christians and the world? Those that were the first diciples of Christ came from all walks of life as they do today! From different classes, different races, different clans, different backgrounds, outside of Christ they may well have been enemies, but now Jesus says under My reign you are one, so those that are your enemies, now within Me there is only Love - for that is the love of God, if you do not have the Son you do not have the Father and there is NO LOVE IN YOU! We need to understand that!

Do we need to be reminded how Jesus with a whip threw the money-changers out of the Temple, He had a militia organized with Him as well, they were armed, and it was not the only time, if we only had that type of strength and courage and faith today, but alas we cowardly back down and mumble 'love your enemies' without even understanding what it means...

 

[Groundhog]

Jesus defended the woman caught in adultery, but did he fight off the men who wanted to stone her? No. Not once did Jesus use violence to achieve his goals. The scene in the temple, remember, harmed no one. It's pointless to argue this on this forum though, I've found. So, go on, support

 

[Cup-of-Ruin]

If pacifists are cowards then Jesus was a coward.

Now you call Him both a pacifist and a coward....you're unbelievable......

 

[Groundhog]

Now you call Him both a pacifist and a coward....you're unbelievable......

Since you refuse to accept Jesus' message of peace, then this is your opinion. I don't think He was a coward. Violence and military force are not signs of true strength. This is what Jesus taught us, and it is what he lived by. The New Testament, including the Gospels, are consistent in this matter.

 

[thefightinglamb]

Yeah, I was thinking that pacifisim really is not possible on almost any level due to how this world is.

But if you are pacifist, you must believe that is the correct response on all levels.

Goundhog, you still have not responded to the example I gave above, but I will clarify in a way that happens often in those world...Some gang or thuggish group is violently attacked a city or group of people...what is to be done? Pacifism would have you let them continue to maltreat them, believing that 'physical violence is never the answer'...but that does not make sense....thugs and gangs do not just lay down their guns and either surrender to the cops or to the people they are abusing; the cycle just continues as infinitum until a stronger man over throws the strong man controling their house as Jesus said in the parable.

It seems tragically rediculous to think that pacifist can chalk up one to courage if they watch a kid get beat to death or a wife by her husband instead of stepping in to stop it....as I said before I think it is more cowards that hide behind pacifism than anything else...pacifism even is more rediculuos than just watching someone else get beat to death, it even suggests the one getting beat to death should do absolutely NOTHING physically to try and stop the violence from happening to themselves. Not only am I not allowed to save someone else when they are being attacked, but if they begin to attack me, I have no right to defend myself by physical force.

Another good retort is I don't believe hell would exist if God were a pacifist.

Just thoughts.
God bless
tony

 

[Maddog]

I am not a pacifist. However, I have great respect for those who are and I believe it is truely a courageous stance to take. Pacifism is not about cowardice, and neither does it mean standing by and allowing evil to happen. It's all about resisting evil through non-violent means. It's about finding another way to resolve conflict.

 

[Graybeard]

We all forget that when Jesus rules here on earth it will be with a rod of iron

Psa 2:9 You shall break them with a rod of iron; You shall dash them to pieces like a potter's vessel.' "

Rev 2:27 'HE SHALL RULE THEM WITH A ROD OF IRON; THEY SHALL BE DASHED TO PIECES LIKE THE POTTER'S VESSELS'— as I also have received from My Father;

Rev 19:15 Now out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, that with it He should strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron. He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

 

[Groundhog]

thefightinglamb- I appreciate your interest in this topic, and I wouldn't mind discussing this with you in a one-on-one setting, but I just cant discuss this topic in the forums anymore. I get beat up too much, and it is just too disheartening for me to see so many Christians condoning violence or making people of peace look like cowards. It makes me angry, and raises my blood pressure to unsafe levels.

I'll just end with this. You said that pacifism is not a viable option because of the way the world works. I would say that pacifism is the viable option precisely because it goes against the way the world works. God, and Christ, are the ones who execute justice; the scriptures are very clear on that. We are to leave vengeance and justice up to God; this is, again, something the scripture is very clear on. Pacifism does not mean being inactive; it simply means being non-violent and non-murderous. Obviously we should do all we can to protect others, especially weaker people who are preyed upon by more powerful people. But we do not resist with weapons. "He who lives by the sword will die by the sword." There is violence and there is inaction, but these are not the only options: Jesus offers a third way, a way of peace that is not blind to injustice. "Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good"

 

[Kathleen]

my eldest brother was in the army from 16 - i see no wrong in being in the military and being a christian

 

[Thaddaeus]

Jesus defended the woman caught in adultery, but did he fight off the men who wanted to stone her? No. Not once did Jesus use violence to achieve his goals. The scene in the temple, remember, harmed no one. It's pointless to argue this on this forum though, I've found. So, go on, support

He took a whip dude and drove them out of the temple, how many pacifist you see walking around with whips??

 

[MahogonySnail]

The military in a combat role does contradict Christianity. It's violent, brutal and has a culture which is far from Christian-like. The early christians were pacifist, for a number of reasons. But I hardly think it's loving to kill someone in the name of Christ.

 

[Cup-of-Ruin]

The military in a combat role does contradict Christianity. It's violent, brutal and has a culture which is far from Christian-like. The early christians were pacifist, for a number of reasons. But I hardly think it's loving to kill someone in the name of Christ.

From a Biblical Christian perspective and also taken from secular law, I have the right to defend myself and others from violence I see it. Someone can commit physical violence and it can be seen as self defence or simply the right thing to do. As Thaddeaus pointed out Jesus and His diciples were armed when the they literally thew the money-changers out of the Temple...Now can you imagine where there is money changing hands, where there are bankers present, there are guards and security, there would have been an armed and violent confrontation, between the Lord and His followers and the financial district of Jerusalem, these money-changers would not have have just packed up and gone after being asked politely, Jesus Christ had to literally whip them out, this would have been God in His wrath mode, God in battle mode, God the warrior, the Old Testament God, that who Jesus is, He is God of the OT as much as the NT.

 

[MahogonySnail]

If you join the military Cup of Ruin, you aren't defending anyone, but commit yourself to serve the will of what is mostly an anti-Christ government.

 

[Jordan9]

The Early Christians were almost unanimously pacifist. There is a long history of Christians supporting pacifism. Additionally, we must remember the social context in which the Church Fathers defended pacifism; Christians were being publicly executed, thrown into colosseums to die by lions, etc. If they can preach pacifism in such a world, why can't we in a world where Christians live in comparable comfort?

I am still unsure as to whether war can ever be justified. St. Augustine seemed to think so.

There are some difficult questions to wrestle with. For example, is it worth it to kill 1 to save 2?