Interesting question: According to scripture alone, what is "the Lord's day" (Revelation 1:10)?

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

WithinReason

Active member
Feb 21, 2020
937
136
43
#1
Interesting question: According to scripture alone, what is "the Lord's day" (Revelation 1:10)?

Rev 1:10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,​

Is the Bible the final authority in all matters of faith and practice for you as it is to me? - see Isaiah 8:20. Then how does the Bible itself, line upon line, define this phrase, and where is John getting this idea from, as inspired of the Holy Ghost? What is the context?

If the Bible is not the final authority in all matters of faith and practice, and you subscribe to the traditions and doctrines of men (Matthew 15:9; Mark 7:7; Colossians 2:2), self-made councils, vain priests and pretended popes who all contradict one another, and pick and choose their religiousity, well, you are already adrift in the miasma of self-made religion, as Paul warned about in Colossians 2:


This thread is not about those vain traditions, pseudo writings, spurious letters, blatant forgeries, and imaginations of the carnal heart, but rather about the sure word of God on the matter, for God cannot lie, while men documentedly have. If you rely upon those things, they will be shown to be what they really are, vanity.

Here is what someone has presented from the scriptures itself:

"The Lord's day" according to scripture, is the 7th day, the sabbath day of the Lord.

Genesis 2:1-3,4 - 'the seventh day', 'God', 'day', 'the LORD God' [… God [the LORD] … day …]
Exodus 16:23 - "the LORD", "to morrow [the seventh day] is the rest of the holy sabbath unto the LORD' [... the LORD ... [day] ...]

Exodus 16:25 - 'to day [the seventh day]; for to day is a sabbath unto the LORD: to day' [... the LORD ... day]

Exodus 20:8-11 - 'the sabbath day', 'the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God', 'sabbath day' [... the LORD ... day ...]

Exodus 31:15 - 'the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD ... the sabbath day' [... the LORD ... day]

Exodus 35:2,3 - 'the seventh day there shall be to you an holy day, a sabbath of rest to the LORD', 'the sabbath day' [… the LORD … day …]

Leviticus 23:3 - 'the seventh day is the sabbath of rest, an holy convocation; ye shall do no work therein: it is the sabbath of the LORD'

Deuteronomy 5:12,14 – 'the LORD', 'the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God' [… the LORD … day …]

Psalms 92:1 - 'A Psalm or Song for the sabbath day. It is a good thing to give thanks unto the LORD'

Isaiah 56:6 - 'Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to the LORD, to serve him, and to love the name of the LORD, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath [day] from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant' (context new covenant) [... the LORD ... sabbath [day] ...]

Isaiah 58:13 - 'the sabbath ... my [the LORD's] holy day ... the holy [day] of the Lord' [... [the LORD's] ... day]

Isaiah 66:22,23 – 'the LORD', 'one sabbath [day] to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD' [… the LORD … [day] …]

Jeremiah 17:21 - 'saith the LORD... on the sabbath day' [... the LORD ... day]

Matthew 12:8 - 'the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day' [... the ... Lord ... day]

Mark 2:28 - 'the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day' [... the ... Lord ... day]

Luke 6:5 - 'the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath [day]' [... the ... Lord ... [day]]

Revelation 1:10 - 'the Lord's day'
 

WithinReason

Active member
Feb 21, 2020
937
136
43
#2
Here are those texts in full:

Gen 2:1 Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.​
Gen 2:2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.​
Gen 2:3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.​
Gen 2:4 These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens,​
Exo 16:23 And he said unto them, This is that which the LORD hath said, To morrow [day] is the rest of the holy sabbath unto the LORD: bake that which ye will bake to day, and seethe that ye will seethe; and that which remaineth over lay up for you to be kept until the morning.​
Exo 16:25 And Moses said, Eat that to day; for to day is a sabbath unto the LORD: to day ye shall not find it in the field.​
Exo 20:8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.​
Exo 20:9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:​
Exo 20:10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:​
Exo 20:11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.​
Exo 31:15 Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD: whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death.​
Exo 35:2 Six days shall work be done, but on the seventh day there shall be to you an holy day, a sabbath of rest to the LORD: whosoever doeth work therein shall be put to death.​
Exo 35:3 Ye shall kindle no fire throughout your habitations upon the sabbath day.​
Lev 23:3 Six days shall work be done: but the seventh day is the sabbath of rest, an holy convocation; ye shall do no work therein: it is the sabbath of the LORD in all your dwellings.​
Deu 5:12 Keep the sabbath day to sanctify it, as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee.​
Deu 5:13 Six days thou shalt labour, and do all thy work:​
Deu 5:14 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, nor thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thine ox, nor thine ass, nor any of thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates; that thy manservant and thy maidservant may rest as well as thou.​
Deu 5:15 And remember that thou wast a servant in the land of Egypt, and that the LORD thy God brought thee out thence through a mighty hand and by a stretched out arm: therefore the LORD thy God commanded thee to keep the sabbath day.​
Psa 92:1 A Psalm or Song for the sabbath day. It is a good thing to give thanks unto the LORD, and to sing praises unto thy name, O most High:​
Isa 56:6 Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to the LORD, to serve him, and to love the name of the LORD, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath [day] from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant;​
Isa 58:13 If thou turn away thy foot from the sabbath, from doing thy pleasure on my [the Lord's] holy day; and call the sabbath a delight, the holy of the LORD, honourable; and shalt honour him, not doing thine own ways, nor finding thine own pleasure, nor speaking thine own words:​
Through simply word substitution, of "my" [pronoun] with the proper noun "The Lord's" we get the same thing as John's phrase. In fact, many translations say, "the Lord's holy day", and "holy" is just the adjective, and thus would read, "the Lord's ... day": https://www.biblegateway.com/verse/en/Isaiah 58:13
Isa 66:22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.​
Isa 66:23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath [day] to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.​
Jer 17:21 Thus saith the LORD; Take heed to yourselves, and bear no burden on the sabbath day, nor bring it in by the gates of Jerusalem;​
Mat 12:8 For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day.​
Mar 2:28 Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath [day].​
Luk 6:5 And he said unto them, That the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath [day].​
Rev 1:9 I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.​
Rev 1:10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,​
Doing an entire search in the Bible shows that the phrase "the Lord's day" is never associated with the phrase "first [day] of the week", anywhere, but is always associated with God's rest day from the beginning, the seventh day, the sabbath of the LORD.

Well, what say you, who claim the Bible as your final authority in all matters of faith and practice?
 

WithinReason

Active member
Feb 21, 2020
937
136
43
#3
The context shows that the "day" spoken of, in each texts presented is "the LORD('s)". John as a physical Jew, who was following the Messiah (Jesus), thus a Christian, was on the Isle of Patmos, for what reason?

Rev 1:2 Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.​
Rev 1:9 I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.​

It is even given in other places:

Rev_6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:​
Rev_20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.​

What is this "word of God" and the "testimony/witness of Jesus"? We do not have to in any way guess, for John tells us in parallel fashion:

Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.​

This is found way back in the OT:

Deu_4:2 Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you.​

So, when John references "the Lord's day", it is in the context of "the word of God", which are God's Commandments. Well, which commandment then? Again, we do not have to guess, for John tells us:

Rev 14:7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.​
Rev 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.​

What specific commandment, was John citing? The 4th Commandment, specifically, Exodus 20:11,

Exo 20:11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.​

The whole Commandment:
Exo 20:8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.​
Exo 20:9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:​
Exo 20:10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:​
Exo 20:11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.​

That little word "of" is possessive. Thus when God speaks, by His own voice, the He (the LORD) has chosen a specific (definite article) "day", it is thus "the LORD('s) ... day", being His sabbath, the 7th day, from the foundation of the world in Genesis 2:1-3,4, where therein it is "God('s; the LORD's) ... day".

The "word of God" = God's commandments:

Isa_1:10 Hear the word of the LORD, ye rulers of Sodom; give ear unto the law of our God, ye people of Gomorrah.​

and the "testimony of Jesus" is the Spirit of prophecy (Revelation 19:10), and as found all throughout scripture:

2Ki_17:13 Yet the LORD testified against Israel, and against Judah, by all the prophets, and by all the seers, saying, Turn ye from your evil ways, and keep my commandments and my statutes, according to all the law which I commanded your fathers, and which I sent to you by my servants the prophets.​
Psa_19:7 The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple.​
Psa_78:5 For he established a testimony in Jacob, and appointed a law in Israel, which he commanded our fathers, that they should make them known to their children​
Pro_29:18 Where there is no vision, the people perish: but he that keepeth the law, happy is he.​
:​
Isa_8:16 Bind up the testimony, seal the law among my disciples.​
Isa_8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.​
Lam_2:9 Her gates are sunk into the ground; he hath destroyed and broken her bars: her king and her princes are among the Gentiles: the law is no more; her prophets also find no vision from the LORD.​
Eze_7:26 Mischief shall come upon mischief, and rumour shall be upon rumour; then shall they seek a vision of the prophet; but the law shall perish from the priest, and counsel from the ancients.​
Mat_22:40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.​
Rom_3:21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;​

Therefore, notice again the connection of the Apostle and prophet John, who receives a "vision", in connection with keeping God's commandments, and was resting specifically on "the LORD's day":

Rev 1:10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,​

The Law (Lord's day) and the testimony (spirit of prophecy) again are witnessed therein in its proper context.

It always speaks of the 7th day the sabbath of the LORD, His holy day.

Line upon line, and no need for a single non-scriptural source to re-define by the man of sin's tradition."
 

WithinReason

Active member
Feb 21, 2020
937
136
43
#4
Revelation 1:10 a bit further:

Rev 1:10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,​
Rev 1:10 εγενομην εν πνευματι εν τη κυριακη ημερα και ηκουσα οπισω μου φωνην μεγαλην ως σαλπιγγος​
Rev 1:10 I wasG1096 inG1722 the SpiritG4151 onG1722 theG3588 Lord'sG2960 day,G2250 andG2532 heardG191 behindG3694 meG3450 a greatG3173 voice,G5456 asG5613 of a trumpet,G4536​
Rev 1:10 εγενομηνG1096 V-2ADI-1S ενG1722 PREP πνευματιG4151 N-DSN ενG1722 PREP τηG3588 T-DSF κυριακηG2960 A-DSF ημεραG2250 N-DSF καιG2532 CONJ ηκουσαG191 V-AAI-1S οπισωG3694 ADV μουG1473 P-1GS φωνηνG5456 N-ASF μεγαληνG3173 A-ASF ωςG5613 ADV σαλπιγγοςG4536 N-GSF​

The word "κυριακη" (translit. "kuriake") is an Adjective - Dative - Singular - Feminine. This means it is being used as a 'possessive' ("of", see 1 Corinthians 11:20, "the Lord's supper"), which means the "day" in context belongs to "the Lord". It is literally "the Lord's (belonging to) day". This means, that the "day" in context is uniquely "the Lord's" out of all the 7 days of the week, for the day under consideration is that which exists within the week, as a day which repeats weekly. This is extremely important, as those who incorrectly assume it to mean "the first [day] of the week" in lieu of Jesus' resurrection, cannot get a weekly occurrence out of a one-time event, in fulfilment of typology of the Firstfruit/Wavesheaf in Leviticus 23:9-14, as made known in 1 Corinthians 15:20,23.

This is not as the phrase "day of the Lord" (ἡμέρα κυρίου) which is written in the genitive masculine case (see 2 Peter 3:10, etc, and also so called septuaginta uses).

In Latin, we see it similarly used in Exodus 20 (Latin is without the definite article, as Latin does not use definite articles):

Rev 1:10 fui in spiritu in dominica die et audivi post me vocem magnam tamquam tubae​
Exo 20:8 memento ut diem sabbati sanctifices​
Exo 20:9 sex diebus operaberis et facies omnia opera tua​
Exo 20:10 septimo autem die sabbati Domini Dei tui non facies omne opus tu et filius tuus et filia tua servus tuus et ancilla tua iumentum tuum et advena qui est intra portas tuas​
Exo 20:11 sex enim diebus fecit Dominus caelum et terram et mare et omnia quae in eis sunt et requievit in die septimo idcirco benedixit Dominus diei sabbati et sanctificavit eum​

Which is akin to Genesis' "God's day":
Gen 2:1 igitur perfecti sunt caeli et terra et omnis ornatus eorum​
Gen 2:2 conplevitque Deus die septimo opus suum quod fecerat et requievit die septimo ab universo opere quod patrarat​
Gen 2:3 et benedixit diei septimo et sanctificavit illum quia in ipso cessaverat ab omni opere suo quod creavit Deus ut faceret​

Whereas the differing apocalyptic day, "the day of the Lord" in Latin is "dies Domini" as in Zephaniah 1:14,
Zep 1:14 iuxta est dies Domini magnus iuxta et velox nimis vox diei Domini amara tribulabitur ibi fortis​

Further, we can see some honest persons, among the many commentators that like to simply assume their apriori into the text, or to place future definition back into the text, from non-scriptural materials.

Peter Pett's commentary makes this accurate note:

"... Sunday is not called ‘the Lord’s day’ (he kyriake hemera) anywhere in Scripture ..." .

Dr. Thomas Constable likewise states the same truth:
"... The New Testament writers never called Sunday the Lord"s day elsewhere in Scripture. ..." .

Richard Chenevix Trench has stated on record, and accurately that:

"... “Some have assumed, from this passage, that ἡμέρα κυριακή was a designation of Sunday already familiar among Christians. This, however, seems a mistake ..." .

Likewise, Foy E Wallace states:
"... It is not a reference to the first day of the week ..." .
 

Subhumanoidal

Well-known member
Sep 17, 2018
2,854
2,330
113
#5
Considering how many times this question has been brought up here I don't find it that interesting.
 

WithinReason

Active member
Feb 21, 2020
937
136
43
#6
Another thing I have found, is that people attempt to define "the Lord's day" by the so-called "ECF" (easily confused fellows; of the 1-4th century AD, etc), instead of going back to the real "fathers"; the Patriarchs and Prophets of Scripture themselves, like John, James and Peter and Paul, and even further back unto Abraham, Moses, David, and those like them, and have those "fathers" tell us, as mouthpieces for God. I find them in the inspired and preserved words of God, and I do not find people like spurious Ignatius, imaginary Didache, self-refuting pseudo Barnabas, etc.

They would place those persons in afteryears above the definition that Jesus gave.

Spurious and Imaginary?

Yes, Spurious, Imaginary, etc:

The writings so often cited to try to define "the Lord's day" outside of scripture, and long after John passed from the scene, are often forged (like Ignatius) and also abused, of which any may see that here - Sunday Fraud: Church "Fathers" on the Lord's Day

The Bible says:

Isa 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.​

God even warned all that they would "think" to "change times and laws" (of which the 4th Commandment, the 7th day the Sabbath of the LORD is both time and law) of the Most High God:
Dan 7:25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.​

Notice some of the fraud:

Here is the long form of the citation from Irenaeus, since there are several conflicting:

"... For if we still live according to the Jewish law, and the circumcision of the flesh, we deny that we have received grace.—ch. 8.​
But let every one of you keep the Sabbath after a spiritual manner, rejoicing in meditation on the law, not in relaxation of the body, admiring the workmanship of God, and not eating things prepared the day before, nor using lukewarm drinks, and walking within a prescribed space, nor finding delight in dancing and plaudits which have no sense in them. And after the observance of the Sabbath, let every friend of Christ keep the Lord's Day as a festival, the resurrection-day, the queen and chief of all the days [of the week].—ch. 9.​
It is absurd to speak of Jesus Christ with the tongue, and to cherish in the mind a Judaism which has now come to an end. For where there is Christianity there cannot be Judaism.—ch. 10.​
These things [I address to you], my beloved, not that I know any of you to be in such a state; but, as less than any of you, I desire to guard you beforehand, that ye fall not upon the hooks of vain doctrine, but that you may rather attain to a full assurance in Christ . . . .—ch. 11. ..." - ANF01. The Apostolic Fathers with Justin Martyr and Irenaeus - Christian Classics Ethereal Library

Let's examine the longer form first, with which the reader will immediately notice a severe problem. The very quote that is supposed to prove that "Christians . . . never [worshipped] on the Sabbath" actually commands "every" Christian to "keep the Sabbath"! Moreover, since the quote also forbids Judaizing, it follows that the writer of the long form of this epistle believed that Sabbath keeping transcended Judiaism. In other words, a Christian could tell people that they needed to keep the Sabbath without being guilty of Judaizing!

The words "and after the observance of the Sabbath" were intentionally deleted from the quote. Another example of fraud?

Now to the other shorter form. The epistles of Ignatius are spurious or forgeries - Link or Link.

Amazing, having to rely upon spurious writings, pseudo-works, which are forgeries.

The original Greek (Didache 14:1) does not have the word for "day" anywhere in that sentence and secondly, neither is the word "Sunday" present.

"... 1. Κατὰ κυριακὴν δὲ κυρίου συναχθέντες κλάσατε ἄρτον καὶ εὐχαριστήσατε, προεξομολογησάμενοι τὰ παραπτώματα ὑμῶν, ὅπως καθαρὰ ἡ θυσία ὑμῶν ᾐ. ..." - The Twelve Apostles-Didache

Where is the word for "day" (hemera)?

Where is the word for "Sunday"?

Where is the word "first"?

It literally reads, "κυριακὴν δὲ κυρίου" (Lord of Lord). Even if this did refer to some day like what is now called 'easter', that would refer to a once in the year event, not a weekly, yet even here, there is no evidence that it refers to such, as others think it means the Lord's life.

The translation that most propose to prove Sunday sacredness or that it is the 'Lord's day' is imaginary.

So far, we have spurious and imaginary.

Then they attempt Pseudo Barnabas:

According to pseudo-Barnabas (ought we to really trust a letter that claims to be from another, didn't Paul warn about such letters being circulated? 2 Thessalonians 2:2), we are too wicked (Christians are too wicked???) at present to keep the 7th day the Sabbath of the LORD, and will not be able to keep it until we are sanctified when Christ returns (so we are going to keep Sabbath again in the New Heavens and New Earth, that doesn't sound like people use this quote for). Because we are too wicked to keep the Sabbath now, we must keep Sunday instead. What good does this reasoning do for the cause of Sunday sacredness or holiness if we are too wicked?

Pseudo Barnabas also teaches the earth ends in the 7,000th year from creation. Do they accept this also?, No, as they believe in the false philosophy of evolutionism and long-agism.

Any may also see the forgery of Justin Martyr here - Doctrine - Sabbath - William H Shea - The Justin Martyr Forgery About Sabbath And Sunday The First Day Of The Week : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive "
 

WithinReason

Active member
Feb 21, 2020
937
136
43
#8
Considering how many times this question has been brought up here I don't find it that interesting.
I find it most interesting, as I hope others do too.

So, what happened to make people think that "the Lord's day" refers not to the seventh day , the sabbath of the LORD thy God, but to some other day?

Dan 7:25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.​

Where did this take place in history, and by whom? Well, we do not have to guess, as the one's who did so, are very open about doing so:

For instance:

Latin:

"... Similiter et feriae a fando dicuntur, ob quam causam Silvester papa primus apud Romanos constituit ut dierum nomina quae antea secundum nomina deorum suorum vocabant, id est, Solis, Lunae, Martis, Mercurii, Veneris, Saturni, feria deinceps vocarent, id est, prima feria, secunda feria, tertia feria, quarta feria, quinta feria, sexta feria, quia in principio Genesis scriptum est quod Deus per singulos dies dixerit : prima, Fiat Lux; secunda, Fiat firmamentum; tertia, Producat terra herbam virentem, similiter, etc. Sabbatum autem antiquo legis vocabulo vocare praecepit, et primam feriam diem Dominicam, eo quod Dominus in illa resurrexit. Statuit autem idem papa ut otium sabbati magis in diem Dominicam transferretur, ut ea die a terrenis operibus ad laudandum Deum vacaremus, justa illud quod scriptum est : Vacate et videte, quoniam ego sum Deus (Psal. XLV). ..." - Beati Rabani Mauri, Fuldensis Abbatis et Moguntini Archiepiscopi, de Clericorum Institutione, ad Heistulphum Archiepiscopum; Libri Tres. (Anno 819.) Ad Fratres Fuldenses Epigramma Ejusdem; Liber Secundus, Caput XLVI. Column 361 (Left; PDF page 35) - http://www.documentacatholicaomnia....eistulphum_Archiepiscopum_Libri_Tres,_MLT.pdf
Translated English:

"... Pope Sylvester first among the Romans ordered that the names of the days [of the week], which they previously called after the name of their gods, that is, [the day] of the Sun, [the day] of the Moon, [the day] of Mars, [the day] of Mercury, [the day] of Jupiter, [the day] of Venus, [the day] of Saturn, they should call feriae thereafter, that is the first feria, the second feria, the third feria, the fourth feria, the fifth feria, the sixth feria, because that in the beginning of Genesis it is written that God said concerning each day: on the first, "Let there be light:; on the second, "Let there be a firmament"; on the third, "Let the earth bring forth verdure"; etc. But he [Sylvester] ordered [them] to call the Sabbath by the ancient term of the law, [to call] the first feria the [countefeit] "Lord's day," because on it the Lord rose [from the dead], Moreover, the same pope decreed that the rest of the Sabbath should be transferred rather to the [counterfeit] Lord's day [Sunday], in order that on that day we should rest from worldly works for the praise of God.7 ..." - Exactly Which Pope Changed The Sabbath To Sunday?

Further:

“...yet we find St. Cæsarius of Arles in the sixth century teaching that the holy Doctors of the Church had decreed that the whole glory of the Jewish Sabbath had been transferred to the Sunday, and that Christians must keep the Sunday holy in the same way as the Jews had been commanded to keep holy the Sabbath Day. … From the eight century the law began to be formulated as it exists at the present day, and the local councils forbade servile work, public buying and selling, pleading in the law courts, and the public and solemn taking of oaths. There is a large body of civil legislation on the Sunday rest side by side with the ecclesiastical. ...” [Roman Catholic Online Encyclopedia; Sunday] - CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Sunday

Council of Trent:

“...But the [Roman Catholic] Church of God has in her wisdom ordained that the celebration of the Sabbath should be transferred to [counterfeit] “the Lord's day:” …” [The Catechism of the Council of Trent; On The Third Commandment; pg 267] - The catechism of the Council of Trent

... and many more such citations.

Isn't it of interest that the Beast in Daniel 7, with Ten Horns, has another "little horn" that uproots three of the Ten? Horns in scripture, are associated with Kings, this is true, but looking a bit deeper, it is also associated with authority, power, rulership, commandments, law.

There are Ten Commandments.

Isn't it interesting that the very same persons which claim to have changed God's law, did so to three of the Ten Commandments, as seen here (Commandments 2 (Exodus 20:4-6), 4 (Exodus 20:8-11) and 10 (Exodus 20:17), as given in scripture):

Catechism of the Catholic Church - The Ten Commandments

Just look at the clear difference between the Left Side (Scripture) and the Far Right (traditional).

Even Philip Melanchthon (on Daniel 7:25) understood this:
"... But what meaneth the aungell to saye: He shall s•arle or destroye ye hyghe sayn∣tis? verely els but that with his false doctryne capciouse othes articles / & in∣terrogacions he shall fraudelently de∣ceyue and trappe the simple innocents and shed their blode tyrannously. Also he shall arrogantly take vpon him & thin∣ke to change the state of tymes and la∣wes. He weneth to change ye tyme which with swerde and fyer thinketh to shorten the lyfe of man and to preuent and disa∣point gods infallible eternall and immu∣table prouidēce wherby he hath prefiyed euery manis tyme & houre of deth which as noman can differre or prolong it / so cā∣ne noman shorten nor preuent it / except men will make God an ignorant persone and so consequently no god at all. He chā∣geth the tymes and lawes that any of the [page 118-119] sixe worke dayes commanded of god will make them vnholy and idle dayes when he lyste / or of their owne holy dayes abo∣lisshed / make* worke dayes agen / & when they changed ye Saterday into Sondaye / of eting dayes fasting dayes / of mery and glad dayes to marye in / they can make so∣rowfull dayes forbiddinge maryages. They haue changed gods lawes and tur∣ned them into their owne tradiciōs to be kept aboue Gods preceptis. And as for their owne lawes they will change & bre∣ke them when they lyste. And this powr shal anticrist haue whether it be for long or shorte tyme. For so miche sowneth the Hebrew phrase / which is for a tyme / a lyt∣le whyle / & half a tyme / signifyinge that Anticryst shall make lawes to stande as long and as shorte tyme as he listeth and the tymes will he order / sett and change at his owne plesur. But is it not onely ye office of god to chang tymes and lawes? Here is therfore the prophecye fulfylled of him. Euen to exalt himselfe aboue all thing that god is called. This text. But the hyghe saynts he shall tangle trappe & destroye and arrogantly thinke to chan∣ge the tymes and lawes &c. is of diuerse lerned men diuersely translated. ..." - The exposicion of Daniel the prophete gathered oute of Philip Melanchton, Iohan Ecolampadius, Chonrade Pellicane [and] out of Iohan Draconite. [et] c. By George Ioye. A prophecye diligently to be noted of al emprowrs [and] kinges in these laste dayes - https://quod.lib.umich.edu/e/eebo/A04696.0001.001/1:11?rgn=div1;view=fulltext
 

UnoiAmarah

Junior Member
Jul 28, 2017
715
125
43
#9
So what about that part that in Matthew 4:4, "but every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of the LORD doth man live"

Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.2 Cor 3:6

But I can relate to being in the Spirit on the LORD's day
 

p_rehbein

Senior Member
Sep 4, 2013
28,140
5,307
113
#10
To the OP:

Who are you quoting all of this from? Please give credit to the "Source." By that, I mean, who are you copy/pasting your comments from? Did you actually compile all of this yourself? If not, who did?
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
16,128
7,945
113
#11
According to scripture alone, what is "the Lord's day" (Revelation 1:10)?
The Lord's Day is THE FIRST DAY OF THE WEEK (the eighth day) when the Lord's Table has the Lord's Supper for Christians. The first day of the week is extremely significant in the New Testament since eight is the number of a New Creation, just as one was the number of the first creation. Also the Sabbath was given to Israel, but the first day of the week was given to the Church.

Had the apostle John meant that he was speaking of the sabbath, he would have simply called it the sabbath. But he used a special term by divine inspiration, and ever since the Christian Sabbath has been the first day of the week.

The first day of the week is also called "the morrow after the sabbath" on which both the Feast of First Fruits and the Feast of Pentecost were observed. The Feast of First Fruits prefigured the resurrection of Christ and the Feast of Pentecost prefigured the harvest of the Church.

When Paul visited the church at Troas he waited to meet with the Christians for seven days, so that he would preach to them on the first day of the week after the breaking of bread (the Lord's Supper):

ACTS 20
5 These going before tarried for us at Troas.
6 And we sailed away from Philippi after the days of unleavened bread, and came unto them to Troas in five days; where we abode seven days.
7 And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight.


When Christ met with all the disciples after His resurrection, Thomas was absent. Therefore the Lord waited for eight days in order to meet with them again on the first day of the week. And it became the Christian day of worship after Thomas said "My Lord and My God".

JOHN 20
19 Then the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peacebe unto you.
20 And when he had so said, he shewed unto them his hands and his side. Then were the disciples glad, when they saw the Lord.
21Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you.
22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:
[Note: the Holy Spirit given to the apostles on the first day of the week]
23 Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.
24 But Thomas, one of the twelve, called Didymus, was not with them when Jesus came.
25 The other disciples therefore said unto him, We have seen the Lord. But he said unto them, Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe.
26 And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you.
27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.

28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.

"The Lord's day" according to scripture, is the 7th day, the sabbath day of the Lord.
Based on the above SCRIPTURES your assertion is TOTALLY INCORRECT. And since Jews who reject Christ continue to observe the 7th day sabbath, that is further proof that you are totally incorrect.
 

WithinReason

Active member
Feb 21, 2020
937
136
43
#12
So what about that part that in Matthew 4:4, "but every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of the LORD doth man live"
Indeed, here are the words of the LORD that directly proceeded out of His mouth:

Exo 20:1 And God spake all these words, saying,​
Exo 20:2 I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.​
Exo 20:3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.​
Exo 20:4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:​
Exo 20:5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;​
Exo 20:6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.​
Exo 20:7 Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.​
Exo 20:8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.​
Exo 20:9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:​
Exo 20:10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:​
Exo 20:11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.​
Exo 20:12 Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee.​
Exo 20:13 Thou shalt not kill.​
Exo 20:14 Thou shalt not commit adultery.​
Exo 20:15 Thou shalt not steal.​
Exo 20:16 Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.​
Exo 20:17 Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour's.​
Remember, Jesus spake those words.
Deu_8:3 And he humbled thee, and suffered thee to hunger, and fed thee with manna, which thou knewest not, neither did thy fathers know; that he might make thee know that man doth not live by bread only, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of the LORD doth man live.​

Moses then reminds them in Deuteronomy 5-8.

Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.2 Cor 3:6
Indeed, as the words of God, as spoken at Mt. Sinai are spiritual:

Rom_7:14 For we know that the law [context, Romans 7:7] is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.​

For without the Holy Spirit of God, which wrote the Ten Commandments [Exodus 31:18; Deuteronomy 9:10; Luke 11:20; Matthew 12:28], none can keep God's law, but by the Holy Ghost, and through Christ Jesus, all (Philippians 4:13) may be kept. The letter cannot be kept without the Spirit, which wrote it, which is why the Holy Ghost is central to the New Covenant, Jeremiah 31:31-34; Isaiah 56:1-8; John 10:16; Hebrews 8:8-13, 10:16 and so forth.

I do desire persons to actually address the OP and subsequent material. The focus is specifically, what is "the Lord's day" of Revelation 1:10, as defined by scripture.

But I can relate to being in the Spirit on the LORD's day
The rock music is of satan, and is the wrong "spirit", the spirit of rebellion, none of which will ever be found in Heaven's music. Feel free to ponder these materials:

Inside Rock Music (PDF)

Drums, Rock & Worship (PDF)

Drumming Up Spirits In Our Service (PDF)


Then contemplate some of that Holy Spirit filled music:


With all said, the OP stands as valid, without any serious contestation.
 

WithinReason

Active member
Feb 21, 2020
937
136
43
#13
To the OP:

Who are you quoting all of this from?
I cited the person (on the OP) who chooses to remain anonymous at present, when I wrote:

"Here is what someone has presented from the scriptures itself:"​

That "someone" may be me, or it may not. This is the age of the internet, where everything written does not carry a persons signature, or even time of origin. If it is me, I am not telling you. It is irrelevant to the material presented. Deal with facts. Jesus did not go around saying, "Whose doctrine is this ... or who stated that ...", that was something the Pharisees did (see them sending to John, to Jesus, to Peter, to Paul, etc).

From mine own perspective, I do not care who wrote or said something. I only care does it agree with God in His word.

Please give credit to the "Source."
I gave you the source as the source desires to be identified - "someone".

By that, I mean, who are you copy/pasting your comments from?
All appropriate citations are given, by links to those which desire to be identified.

Did you actually compile all of this yourself?
Why is it relevant to the issue of the OP?

The OP stands at present as unrefuted, and from this position at present, unrefutable. Thank you for your true concern. My concern is what saith the LORD, as the OP gives.
 

lightbearer

Senior Member
Jun 17, 2017
2,375
503
113
55
HBG. Pa. USA
#14
I cited the person (on the OP) who chooses to remain anonymous at present, when I wrote:

"Here is what someone has presented from the scriptures itself:"​

That "someone" may be me, or it may not. This is the age of the internet, where everything written does not carry a persons signature, or even time of origin. If it is me, I am not telling you. It is irrelevant to the material presented. Deal with facts. Jesus did not go around saying, "Whose doctrine is this ... or who stated that ...", that was something the Pharisees did (see them sending to John, to Jesus, to Peter, to Paul, etc).

From mine own perspective, I do not care who wrote or said something. I only care does it agree with God in His word.

I gave you the source as the source desires to be identified - "someone".

All appropriate citations are given, by links to those which desire to be identified.

Why is it relevant to the issue of the OP?

The OP stands at present as unrefuted, and from this position at present, unrefutable. Thank you for your true concern. My concern is what saith the LORD, as the OP gives.
Well said.
 

JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
19,182
5,131
113
#15
According to the Word it is what the Lord, Himself, has taught us the Seventh Day is the Sabbath of the Lord.

If you find another Lord's day, please afford the Holy Scripture, otherwise keep it to yourself.
 
Jan 4, 2020
1,506
266
83
63
washburn Tn
#16
Here are those texts in full:

Gen 2:1 Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.​
Gen 2:2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.​
Gen 2:3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.​
Gen 2:4 These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens,​
Exo 16:23 And he said unto them, This is that which the LORD hath said, To morrow [day] is the rest of the holy sabbath unto the LORD: bake that which ye will bake to day, and seethe that ye will seethe; and that which remaineth over lay up for you to be kept until the morning.​
Exo 16:25 And Moses said, Eat that to day; for to day is a sabbath unto the LORD: to day ye shall not find it in the field.​
Exo 20:8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.​
Exo 20:9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:​
Exo 20:10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:​
Exo 20:11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.​
Exo 31:15 Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD: whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death.​
Exo 35:2 Six days shall work be done, but on the seventh day there shall be to you an holy day, a sabbath of rest to the LORD: whosoever doeth work therein shall be put to death.​
Exo 35:3 Ye shall kindle no fire throughout your habitations upon the sabbath day.​
Lev 23:3 Six days shall work be done: but the seventh day is the sabbath of rest, an holy convocation; ye shall do no work therein: it is the sabbath of the LORD in all your dwellings.​
Deu 5:12 Keep the sabbath day to sanctify it, as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee.​
Deu 5:13 Six days thou shalt labour, and do all thy work:​
Deu 5:14 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, nor thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thine ox, nor thine ass, nor any of thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates; that thy manservant and thy maidservant may rest as well as thou.​
Deu 5:15 And remember that thou wast a servant in the land of Egypt, and that the LORD thy God brought thee out thence through a mighty hand and by a stretched out arm: therefore the LORD thy God commanded thee to keep the sabbath day.​
Psa 92:1 A Psalm or Song for the sabbath day. It is a good thing to give thanks unto the LORD, and to sing praises unto thy name, O most High:​
Isa 56:6 Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to the LORD, to serve him, and to love the name of the LORD, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath [day] from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant;​
Isa 58:13 If thou turn away thy foot from the sabbath, from doing thy pleasure on my [the Lord's] holy day; and call the sabbath a delight, the holy of the LORD, honourable; and shalt honour him, not doing thine own ways, nor finding thine own pleasure, nor speaking thine own words:​
Through simply word substitution, of "my" [pronoun] with the proper noun "The Lord's" we get the same thing as John's phrase. In fact, many translations say, "the Lord's holy day", and "holy" is just the adjective, and thus would read, "the Lord's ... day": https://www.biblegateway.com/verse/en/Isaiah 58:13
Isa 66:22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.​
Isa 66:23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath [day] to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.​
Jer 17:21 Thus saith the LORD; Take heed to yourselves, and bear no burden on the sabbath day, nor bring it in by the gates of Jerusalem;​
Mat 12:8 For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day.​
Mar 2:28 Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath [day].​
Luk 6:5 And he said unto them, That the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath [day].​
Rev 1:9 I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.​
Rev 1:10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,​
Doing an entire search in the Bible shows that the phrase "the Lord's day" is never associated with the phrase "first [day] of the week", anywhere, but is always associated with God's rest day from the beginning, the seventh day, the sabbath of the LORD.

Well, what say you, who claim the Bible as your final authority in all matters of faith and practice?
In HEBREWS 4:8-12 Tells us that JESUS didn't change the Sabbath That it still REMAINS,
And GOD warns us that Satan would try to change it in Daniel 7:25, The only law of GODs, that's got to do with time is GODs Sabbath
GOD bless as sees fit for you all.
 

WithinReason

Active member
Feb 21, 2020
937
136
43
#17
The Lord's Day is THE FIRST DAY OF THE WEEK (the eighth day)
You are without a single scripture for that assertion. If you had it, you would have cited it here. You did not. I shall address what you have given below momentarily.

Also, from that same (ogdoad) theology you cannot get a one time event into a weekly event, and neither does such appear anywhere in the whole of scripture.

when the Lord's Table has the Lord's Supper for Christians.
Again, you are without scripture on this point, and if you had it you would have cited it here. You did not. I shall address what you have given below momentarily.

The first day of the week is extremely significant in the New Testament
Actually the "first [day] of the week" is not prominent in the New Testament. You are again without scripture support here, and if you had the evidence, you would have cited it here. You did not. There are many other things which are prominent, and of that which you did cite, I shall address momentarily.

since eight is the number of a New Creation, just as one was the number of the first creation.
Eight is the number of circumcision (Leviticus 12:3; Luke 1:59; Acts 7:8), which follows not a weekly cycle, but is counted from after the birth which could land on any day of the week, or any day in the month, including the 7th day of the week, the sabbath (John 7:22). The scriptures also relate the "eighth" as the day in which the firstfruits were given, such as an animal (Exodus 22:30; Leviticus 9:1, 22:27), and was also the day of "offering" after cleansing (Leviticus 15:14), both of which were not weekly events. It (8) was also associated with the Feast of Tabernacles/Booths (a one time event, yearly; Leviticus 23:36,39), and did not follow a weekly pattern, and could land on any day of the week, in a given month (based upon the New Moon sightings).

1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 are cyclical, weekly. 8 is not. So, even accepting that 8 is symbolical (as all numbers are) and refers to the New Heavens and New Earth, it begins on the new day 1, all over again:

Isa 66:22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.​
Isa 66:23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.​

That is what the Feast of Tabernacles points to with it's eighth (one time, not weekly). So even within the New Creation, is the cycle of 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 (sabbath) - 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 (sabbath), ad infinitum.

Also the Sabbath was given to Israel,
Scripture states that the sabbath was "made" (creation; Genesis 2:1-3; Exodus 20:8-11) for "the man" (Adam; Mark 2:27; Ecclesiastes 12:13-14), both first and second (1 Corinthians 15:45,47; Colossians 1:16). It, after the Egyptian period of slavery, wherein they had 'forgotten' to keep God's laws, was God that also gave them by Reminder, the sabbath of the LORD (Exodus 20:8-11; Deuteronomy 5:12-15). Moses was a sabbath reformer (see Exodus 5-16, etc).

Finally, "Israel" was a name given from the True Israel to a man, who would be the type of the True Israel to come - Jesus Christ.

Jesus is the True Israel (Matthew 2:13-15,19-21; Hosea 11:1; his children are his disciples; Hebrews 2:13; Isaiah 8:16,18; John 13:33), the true "overcomer" (John 16:33; Revelation 3:21), the real "Prince" with God (Isaiah 9:6; Daniel 8:11,25, 9:25, 10:13,21, 11:22, 12:1; Acts 3:15, 5:31; Revelation 1:5), being Lord over His own house, whose house are we (Psalms 98:3; Hebrews 3:6; Jeremiah 31:33), who himself is the "elect" (Isaiah 42:1; Matthew 12:18; 1 Peter 2:6) of the Father, in whom all the promises of God find their realization (2 Corinthians 1:20). The promises made by God were all based upon condition (Exodus 19).

Mat 2:13-15; Hos 11:1; Jer 31:33; Rom 9:6-8; Heb 2:13; Isa 8:16,18; Jhn 13:33, 16:33, 17:12, 18:9, 21:5; 1 Cor 15:46; 2 Cor 1:20; Gal 6:16; Heb 3:6, 8:8,10; Rev 3:21

'Israel' after the flesh, as a 'nation', is left desolate (Matthew 23:38; Luke 13:35), to bear no more fruit ever again (Matthew 21:19), cursed, withered away (Mark 11:21), dried up from the roots (Mark 11:20), "twice dead" (Jude 1:12), and the axe already laid at their root (Matthew 3:10; Luke 3:9), cut down and to be thrown into the fire.

Also, the "church" were those in the wilderness with Moses:

Act_7:38 This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:​
I can also cite many septuaginta 'ecclesia' passages also if necessary, showing the same things.
 

WithinReason

Active member
Feb 21, 2020
937
136
43
#18
but the first day of the week was given to the Church.
You are again without scripture support here, and if you had the evidence, you would have cited it here. You did not. I shall address what you have given below momentarily.

All 7 days are in the commandment of God, and we are responsible to God in all of them, at all times:

Exo 20:8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.​
Exo 20:9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:​
Exo 20:10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:​
Exo 20:11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.​

Had the apostle John meant that he was speaking of the sabbath
It is of the highest and grossest presumption to even think to deign what the Apostle (or any writer of the Bible) 'ought' to have said, wrote or "meant", while under inspiration of the Holy Ghost. John wrote what he wrote, under that inspiration., and I for one do not ever intent to have it changed, as some seem inclined to do, by attempting, without a single scripture, to make it say 'first [day] of the week'. I point you to the warnings given in Revelation 22:18-19. John understood, as already pointed out, all the scriptures that had been written before, and the context shows him speaking directly of "the word of God" and the "testimony" (see Isaiah 8:20, etc, as already cited).

, he would have simply called it the sabbath.
See previous response.

But he used a special term by divine inspiration
I couldn't agree more with you here, and as shown by the OP, "the Lord's day" was known even in Isaiah 58, as the seventh day, the sabbath of the LORD thy God. John, agrees with the other Gospel writers, Matthew, Mark and Luke, when it is written that Jesus is still "the Lord" of the sabbath "day". All four witnesses, agree - perfectly. Not one witness, is heard from Genesis to Revelation, as to the mythology, the carnal and vain imagination, of the Lord's day being the 'first [day] of the week'. If you had such evidence you would have produced it. You did not. I shall address what you have given below momentarily.

, and ever since the Christian Sabbath has been the first day of the week.
That is the oft repeated 'mythos', that has stood upon nothing for so long, but even error so hoary, is still error.

The first day of the week is also called "the morrow after the sabbath"
True. What does that have to do with the OP and evidence therein? That has never been in argument, and still is not (at least by any competent in the things of God's word).

on which both the Feast of First Fruits and the Feast of Pentecost were observed.
In that year of Jesus resurrection and outpouring of the Holy Ghost upon the Apostles/Disciples, true. Both were one time events - as forshadowed by their yearly types. None of it was weekly. Again, how do you get such an yearly event of type, or a one time in all future history, as reality, to being a weekly event by scripture? Produce those texts. You cannot, because there are none. Additionally, it is even a nonsequitur, to the OP in first instance. Neither Firstfruits, nor Pentecost, are ever called "the Lord's day" - anywhere in scripture.

Why place the emphassis merely upon Firstfruits and Pentecost, simply because in that year (AD 321) they landed upon the 'first [day] of the week'? You do realize that Passover was upon the 14th, the preparation day (6th day of the week), and the First day of Unleavened Bread was upon the 7th day of the week (thus an High sabbath that year). That the final day of the Feast of Unleavened bread, 7 days later, was also not upon the first day of the week. What of the other feasts?

Why pick and choose what you desire, and ignore what doesn't fit the pattern you hope for?

The Feast of First Fruits prefigured the resurrection of Christ and the Feast of Pentecost prefigured the harvest of the Church.
Yes, and? What does it do with the OP and Revelation 1:10 and its phrase "the Lord's day"? Nothing. It is merely red-herring.

There is no question as to what day Jesus arose from the dead. It was the "first [day] of the week", the day which followed the 7th day the sabbath of the LORD, see Luke 23:54-56, etc. That is not in question at all. It is merely distraction to bring it up.

Last Supper was 'thursday night', beginning of the 'sixth day'.
Crucifixion and Death was 'sixth day'.
In the Tomb was Sabbath, the 7th day.
Resurrection was 'first [day] of the week'

All are required. All needful. None of it changes the Commandment (Exodus 20:8-11), nor negates obedience to it in all that it says. Jesus death proves its eternality.

When Paul visited the church at Troas he waited to meet with the Christians for seven days
Yes, do you know why? The sabbath was the day that would end the week (as the koine Greek says*), wherein they would all meet at gathering for public worship (see Acts 20:7) and then afterwards when the sun had set, they would get together for a private farewell to Paul (who was leaving on the following work day, 'the first [day] of the week', when the sun came up).*

Genesis 1:5 (Masoretes Hebrew) יום אחד׃ (Transliterated) yôm echäd f​
Matthew 28:1(a) - (Koine Greek) οψε δε σαββατων (Transliterated) oye de sabbatwn​
Matthew 28:1(b) - (Koine Greek) εις μιαν σαββατων (Transliterated) eiV mian sabbatwn​
Mark 16:2 - (Koine Greek) και λιαν πρωι της μιας σαββατων (Transliterated) kai lian prwi ths mias sabbatwn​
Mark 16:9 - (Koine Greek) αναστας δε πρωι πρωτη σαββατου (Transliterated) anastas de prwi prwth sabbatou​
Luke 24:1 - (Koine Greek) τη δε μια των σαββατων (Transliterated) th de mia twn sabbatwn​
John 20:1 - (Koine Greek) τη δε μια των σαββατων (Transliterated) th de mia twn sabbatwn​
John 20:19 - (Koine Greek) τη μια των σαββατων (Transliterated) th mia twn sabbatwn​
Acts 20:7 - (Koine Greek) εν δε τη μια των σαββατων (Transliterated) en de th mia twn sabbatwn​
1 Corinthians 16:2 - (Koine Greek) κατα μιαν σαββατων (Transliterated) kata mian sabbatwn​

That the Sabbath [of the Lord thy God], [being] the 7th day, is always the culmination of the week in God's Created order and is always referred to as such in all of scripture.

Therefore, every single “first [day] of the week” text upholds the 7th Day Sabbath, and is undeniable evidence of its continued existence and prominence.

The body of believers may gather on any and every day with no injunction anywhere found in scripture against such, and in truth they met "daily", "continually", etc (Mat 26:55; Mar 14:49; Luk 22:53, 24:33,36; Acts 19:9) and likewise among the followers of Jesus Christ (Luk 24:51,53; Acts 1:3,9, 2:46-47, 5:42, 6:1, 16:5, 17:11,17; Heb 3:13, etc).

Not a single one of those texts state that the "first [day] of the week" is "the Lord's day". Far from it. They all acknowledge that the 'first [day]" is simply a number in association with the "sabbath", the culmination of every week, which as Isaiah 58 shows is "the Lord's holy day".
 

WithinReason

Active member
Feb 21, 2020
937
136
43
#19
, so that he would preach to them on the first day of the week after the breaking of bread (the Lord's Supper):
Oh, you overreached yourself there, by saying, "the Lord's supper". That is nowhere present in the text, and you assumed it, without contextual evidence even.

Act 20:7 And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight.​

This is an evening meeting, after Sabbath was over, for we see lights, and evening meals being eaten, and timeframe of preaching to Midnight and beyond. In fact, Paul travels some 19-21ish miles (from Troas) to the next city, Assos, by foot during the morning time. There is no “Sunday” (a word never mentioned in scripture) service here. The day, scripturally begins at “evening” (Genesis 1, etc), and thus it is technically what the western mind would call “Saturday night” (which is the "first [day] of the week"].

There is no continual pattern here, as it is a special meeting and farewell for Paul, who is forever leaving them, and because of the events of Eutychus.

The disciples eat a common meal, as they did every day, for there is no mention of the “cup”, “Lord's table or supper”, “footwashing”, “fruit of the vine”, etc. It is the same phrase used in taking a common meal (Acts 2:46, etc).

The phrase in koine Greek is again demonstrative that the 7th day the sabbath is the culmination of the week, “εν δε τη μια των σαββατων”, as every single “first [day]” text reveals.

There is no special designation for the day.

This is a one-off event amidst a series of one-off events.

Even as a pattern, it is at night time, held until midnight and beyond. Do they really follow this as an example in their practice? No. Seems hypocritical to me.

Nowhere in Acts 20, is the 'first [day] of the week' ever designated "the Lord's day", and Luke wrote Acts, years after the ascension of Jesus Christ. He simply calls the first day the first day in relation to the 7th day, the sabbath, as they all had done, and continued to do.

Acts 20 is again a red-herring.

When Christ met with all the disciples after His resurrection, Thomas was absent.
Indeed. Do you know when that was? It was actually "the second [day] of the week', being the first "evening" portion. Notice:

Let's consider the so-called gatherings on the 'first [day] of the week':

John 20:19

Joh 20:19 Then the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.​
In scripture, though, there are several "evenings". The "evening" of about 3 PM to sunset, known as the "going down of the sun":

Exo 29:39 The one lamb thou shalt offer in the morning; and the other lamb thou shalt offer at even:​
Mat_16:2 He answered and said unto them, When it is evening, ye say, It will be fair weather: for the sky is red.​
Then there is another and final "evening" which brings the next day as in Genesis 1, this "evening" is known as the beginning of the "day", see Genesis 1, etc.

Gen 1:5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.​
Therefore, when we are reading Mark, Luke and John, we need to take that into consideration. Look again:

Luk_24:29 But they constrained him, saying, Abide with us: for it is toward evening, and the day is far spent. And he went in to tarry with them.​
Luk 24:30 And it came to pass, as he sat at meat with them, he took bread, and blessed it, and brake, and gave to them.​
We can see that they (disciples and Jesus) were still walking to Emmaus while it was yet "day" (light out, with the sun still out), and yet it began to grow late in the day, and the sun was beginning to go down. It was getting near supper time. It was not yet night (sun down). Yet, while they eat, Jesus makes known who He is, and vanishes from their sight (no, Jesus is not aethereal, He is simply invisible to their eyes), and they being astonished, run all the way back to Jerusalem where the other disciples were hiding behind closed doors. Now the distance from Emmaus to Jerusalem, we are told, is "threescore furlongs" ("A Greek measure of length, being 600 Greek ft., or 100 orguiai equal to 606 3/4 English ft., and thus somewhat less than a furlong, which is 660 ft." - Link and thus is about 7-8 Miles as we would know them).

7-8 Miles is a long way to run when the sun is setting, going back uphill (Jerusalem, the city on a hill). This would take several hours. It would be dark, by the time these reached Jerusalem and the other disciples, being the final "evening" (when the sun did set, see Mark 1:32).

Therefore, when John says, "Then the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you."

We know the timeframe it refers to. It was the end of the first day of the week, in the "evening", when the sun was set, which in reality, is another way of saying the 'second [day] of the week', contextually. The text refers to the "evening" at the end of the "first [day] of the week" which scripturally means the actual "second [day] of the week". I am not rewriting the text here. I am simply demonstrating that John is using a parallel language to say the same thing another way. It would be akin to saying the "Robe is purple.", and another person saying, the "Robe is a mixture of the shades of red and blue."

Thus it was in actuality the second day of the week that Jesus appeared to them. Then we see another appearance "after eight days", which would place the following meeting, again, no matter how it is calculated (inclusive or exclusive), not upon the "first [day] of the week", but either the second or third:

Joh 20:26 And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you.​
 

WithinReason

Active member
Feb 21, 2020
937
136
43
#20
JOHN 20
19 Then the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peacebe unto you.
20 And when he had so said, he shewed unto them his hands and his side. Then were the disciples glad, when they saw the Lord.
21Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you.
22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:
[Note: the Holy Spirit given to the apostles on the first day of the week]
23 Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.
24 But Thomas, one of the twelve, called Didymus, was not with them when Jesus came.
25 The other disciples therefore said unto him, We have seen the Lord. But he said unto them, Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe.
26 And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you.
27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.

28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.

Therefore the Lord waited for eight days

in order to meet with them again on the first day of the week. And it became the Christian day of worship after Thomas said "My Lord and My God".
You are mistaken. It was "after" "eight days". No matter how you try to calculate that, inclusively or exclusively, after 8 is 9 or more. There are only 7 days in a week.

[1] [2] [3] [4] [5] [6] [7]

We know that Jesus met with them on the evening of the 2nd day (first part) [2] which I will here break into [A / B], A being the evening unto morning and B being the morning unto next evening.

[1A / 1B][2A / 2B] From 2 A (evening) we count "after eight days", a "day" being either in part or in whole.

[1A / 1B] (had already passed and it was evening)
[2A / 2B] = 1 (inclusive) (met with the disciples)
[3A / 3B] = 2 (exclusive)
[4A / 4B] = 3
[5A / 5B] = 4
[6A / 6B] = 5
[7A / 7B] = 6
[1A / 1B] = 7
[2A / 2B] = 8
[3A / 3B] = 9th day (after eight days)
[4A / 4B] = 10
th day (after eight days)


Yet, even if we ignored all the context about Jesus meeting with the disciples upon the evening portion of the second day of the week, and tried to count from the [1B] portion (where he had actually walked and talked with the two on the Road to Emmaus), the saying "after eight days" cannot ever calculate to landing upon [1A or 1B].

Please do the math. Please read the context of when Jesus first met with the disciples. Open all four gospels and compare them together.

Based on the above SCRIPTURES your assertion is TOTALLY INCORRECT.
As much as you spoke many words, you did not actually once address the OP. What you did was flash a bunch of non-sequitur at me hoping some of it would stick. Most of what you wrote was either irrelevant, in error (as documented from actual scripture study) or already agreed upon.

And since Jews who reject Christ continue to observe the 7th day sabbath, that is further proof that you are totally incorrect.
There is not a "jew" on earth that can rightly observe the sabbath of the Lord, as they reject that Lord of the sabbath (Mark 2:27-28). Think about it. Most 'jews' today have 0 descent from what existed in th OT/NT times, and are either askenazic, or sephardic.

To equate me with such persons (whom all need Jesus Christ), is a hidden attempt to say I am rejecting Christ. I reject such a hidden assertion. It is most certainly untrue.