Interpreting the Parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus: It's Really Good News!

[posthuman]

Do you still beat your wife?

you are on record over and over and over, and now created a thread specifically about your belief that Jesus Christ, God incarnate, is totally lying making up absolutely impossible fairy-tale nonsense in Luke 16

why?

why is it so important to you that Luke 16 be rubbish?

do you think God is unfair?

 

[posthuman]

Jesus never said the conditions of hell were eternal. He was referring to the city dump in the Valley of Gehenna when He said "the worm dieth not and the fire is not quenched".

No body was running around the Valley of Gehenna with a fire hose trying to quench the fire and the maggots continuously fed on the carcasses while they were rotting next to it.

QUESTION: IS THE FIRE IN THE VALLEY OF GEHENNA STILL BURNING TODAY?

so you think Christ is lying in Mark 9:48, too?

why do you want Christ to be a liar?
what is it that offends you about Him?

do you really really really hope that you cease to exist? is that it?
not fond of existing?

you're so weird.

 

[Webers.Home]

.
I believe God has a right to pick his friends just the same as anybody else.
Well; judging from several of Jesus' lectures, there are certain personality
types with whom God does not care to associate, and one of those types is
found in folks who lack the milk of human kindness.

When we get right down to it, the rich man went to the wrong side of the
afterlife not especially for anything he did, rather, because he's callous.

• Matt 5:7 . . Blessed are the merciful, for they shall obtain mercy.

Christ wasn't talking about forgiveness in that beatitude. The word for
"merciful" is eleemon (el-eh-ay'-mone) which means: compassionate (as an
adjective). And the word for "mercy" is eleeo (el-eh-eh'-o) which means: to
pity (as a verb).

So then, what Christ says is: if somebody is by nature cruel, hard hearted,
thoughtless, and insensitive; then they will get no sympathy from God.

NOTE: A contemporary example of the rich man's attitude towards lesser
fortunate souls than himself is North Korea's Kim Jong-Un: a dictator who
squanders billions on national defense while the growth of something like 30
to 40 percent of his citizen's children are stunted by malnutrition.

Adequate health care is available only to a relatively privileged few. There
are hospitals in North Korea without electricity and medications. Potable
water is another scarcity in North Korea; and fresh meats. Some people
there are actually subsisting on frogs, mice, dragon flies. and locusts. The
meanwhile, Kim has the best of everything; he's doing just fine.

You know, were North Koreans not forced to respect Kim under the penalty
of death, torture, and/or imprisonment, I seriously doubt anybody would.
Well; just you wait till Kim arrives in the netherworld. No doubt numbers of
people down there can hardly wait for a chance to scratch his eyes out.

I've heard it from ex felons that prison itself is not so bad. It's the society
inside that makes prison a living hell. Well; I just wish I could be on-site
down below for Kim's home-coming. I expect people down there will be all
over him like hungry ants on a grasshopper.
_

 

[Phoneman-777]

yes I think it is a parable and agree it teaches us about what happens when we die we as humans and the two seperate places . Teaches us we can’t cross into the other once we’re there .

shows us we are going to be conscious of wha the happening , feel torment , Thirst ect I’m sure joy and peace and all the great things Lazarus was experiencing also.

that’s exactly right his parables are spiritual deep teachings of truth. But if we aren’t born of the spirit we’ll not be able to get anything from them they seem Irrelevant and not needed or as if a “ parable “ was to confuse “ spiritual wisdom that leads us to consider what’s being said the lesson and truth being imparted

So, you're not bothered by the MANY Biblical contradictions which arise from treating it as a literal story?

 

[Phoneman-777]

you are on record over and over and over, and now created a thread specifically about your belief that Jesus Christ, God incarnate, is totally lying making up absolutely impossible fairy-tale nonsense in Luke 16

why?

why is it so important to you that Luke 16 be rubbish?

do you think God is unfair?

Call Jesus a liar? Never.

Expose the errors of fools who make the Bible teach pagan lies as truth? All day long, bro.

And, I'd also remind you that you've STILL failed to back up your claim that the wicked can partake of God's "agape" love, which you made so as to "prove" the "many" of Matthew 24:12-13 KJV are the "wicked" instead of the doomed former saints they are. If you lived during the Dark Ages, such a blasphemously preposterous claim would land you on the top of the Inquisitor's list of "Pontifex Maximus' Most Wanted".

 

[Phoneman-777]

so you think Christ is lying in Mark 9:48, too?

why do you want Christ to be a liar?
what is it that offends you about Him?

do you really really really hope that you cease to exist? is that it?
not fond of existing?

you're so weird.

Nah, Christ Who is God cannot lie, according to Scripture. However, fools have been lying since time immemorial, especially repeating the same lie of the Serpent who said, "Ye shall not surely die".

I would challenge you to spend a full moon Halloween night in the safest place in town - a cemetery - for a $100, but you'd never show, though, right? You know them people are all dead...but not SURELY, right?

 

[Pilgrimshope]

So, you're not bothered by the MANY Biblical contradictions which arise from treating it as a literal story?

no there are no contradictions only misinterpretations because we reject what the lord said . One thing I know of me is I understand who is the Lord and who’s word will prove true as all else fades and crumbles away.

“Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭24:35‬ ‭KJV‬‬

I know where to Go to learn from God

“It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.”
‭‭John‬ ‭6:45‬ ‭KJV‬‬

I know who’s witness to trust and accept

“He that cometh from above is above all: he that is of the earth is earthly, and speaketh of the earth: he that cometh from heaven is above all. And what he hath seen and heard, that he testifieth; and no man receiveth his testimony.

He that hath received his testimony hath set to his seal that God is true. For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him. The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand.

He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.”
‭‭John‬ ‭3:31-36‬ ‭KJV‬‬

so not to insult you or argue but Jesus actually explains everything we need to believe about eternity I’m bound to him and what he said is true

the parable there is clearly a teaching of what happens when a person dies. And it’s quite informative but it requires us to accept it and find the lesson and teaching in it we don’t want to end up in one of those places but we want to end up in the other

either way the living soul remains alive after we part the flesh but I don’t think there is contradiction the Old Testament merely lacked revelation that came through Jesus Christ

 

[CS1]

Jesus never said the conditions of hell were eternal. He was referring to the city dump in the Valley of Gehenna when He said "the worm dieth not and the fire is not quenched".

No body was running around the Valley of Gehenna with a fire hose trying to quench the fire and the maggots continuously fed on the carcasses while they were rotting next to it.

QUESTION: IS THE FIRE IN THE VALLEY OF GEHENNA STILL BURNING TODAY?

yes he did

 

[Pilgrimshope]

yes he did

“For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful;

but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:

Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭1:16-18, 21-25‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation;

and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever:

and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭14:9-12‬ ‭KJV‬‬

 

[Webers.Home]

.
• Luke 16:22-24 . . The rich man also died and was buried. And in hades he
lifted up his eyes . . . and saw Abraham far away . . and he cried out and
said: Father Abraham!

The New Testament's hades is commonly believed equivalent to the Old
Testament's sheol, and both are commonly interpreted "the grave".

Well; my problem with that is people in the grave are supposed to be dead,
yet here is a guy in hades who was able to communicate with not only
another dead guy, but with a dead guy over in a different grave. How were
they doing that? Do the dead have access to some sort of world-wide
cemetery network complete with services like Face Time and Zoom?
_

 

[Pilgrimshope]

.
• Luke 16:22-24 . . The rich man also died and was buried. And in hades he
lifted up his eyes . . . and saw Abraham far away . . and he cried out and
said: Father Abraham!

The New Testament's hades is commonly believed equivalent to the Old
Testament's sheol, and both are commonly interpreted "the grave".

Well; my problem with that is people in the grave are supposed to be dead,
yet here is a guy in hades who was able to communicate with not only
another dead guy, but with a dead guy over in a different grave. How were
they doing that? Do the dead have access to some sort of world-wide
cemetery network complete with services like Face Time and Zoom?
_

there is a natural realm and a spiritual one

 

[SomeDisciple]

As someone who does not plan on being cast into the lake of fire, there's not much at stake for me concerning what happens to the people that are. This is one area where my personal moral compass simply points to God and I don't feel a moral obligation or even the capacity to fairly judge what God does with a non-believer whether they be eternally tormented or annihlated.

My first impression of the term "second death" is what it sounds like. You die a second time- annihlation. But there are too many verses that seem to imply that this is more like a process of slowly dying over an eternity than simply being dead forever.

“If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever;

I've wondered about the relative geographical location of the Lake of Fire, but somehow I never noticed that it is "in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb". If the brimstone is the same as the stones of fire in Ezek 28:14, then the Lake of Fire is actually on the Mountain of God, and Satan has known about it since before he was even Satan. If the lake of fire was located on earth, I'd say maybe they are dying a quick second natural death- but if the Lake of fire is in the third heaven, then it's probably gonna last forever.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

As someone who does not plan on being cast into the lake of fire, there's not much at stake for me concerning what happens to the people that are. This is one area where my personal moral compass simply points to God and I don't feel a moral obligation or even the capacity to fairly judge what God does with a non-believer whether they be eternally tormented or annihlated.

My first impression of the term "second death" is what it sounds like. You die a second time- annihlation. But there are too many verses that seem to imply that this is more like a process of slowly dying over an eternity than simply being dead forever.

“If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever;

I've wondered about the relative geographical location of the Lake of Fire, but somehow I never noticed that it is "in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb". If the brimstone is the same as the stones of fire in Ezek 28:14, then the Lake of Fire is actually on the Mountain of God, and Satan has known about it since before he was even Satan. If the lake of fire was located on earth, I'd say maybe they are dying a quick second natural death- but if the Lake of fire is in the third heaven, then it's probably gonna last forever.

“For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the Lord, so shall your seed and your name remain. And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the Lord.

And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.”
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭66:22-24‬ ‭

“The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭14:10-11‬ ‭

 

[Onesimus63]

As someone who does not plan on being cast into the lake of fire, there's not much at stake for me concerning what happens to the people that are. This is one area where my personal moral compass simply points to God and I don't feel a moral obligation or even the capacity to fairly judge what God does with a non-believer whether they be eternally tormented or annihlated.

My first impression of the term "second death" is what it sounds like. You die a second time- annihlation. But there are too many verses that seem to imply that this is more like a process of slowly dying over an eternity than simply being dead forever.

“If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever;

I've wondered about the relative geographical location of the Lake of Fire, but somehow I never noticed that it is "in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb". If the brimstone is the same as the stones of fire in Ezek 28:14, then the Lake of Fire is actually on the Mountain of God, and Satan has known about it since before he was even Satan. If the lake of fire was located on earth, I'd say maybe they are dying a quick second natural death- but if the Lake of fire is in the third heaven, then it's probably gonna last forever.

I heard a minister state:
Hell is where God's presence does not exist.

A truly frightening place

 

[Nehemiah6]

The claim that Jesus' use of the proper name "Lazarus" is proof the passage is literal will go down in history as one of the most blatant examples of subjective hermeneutical reasoning in all the Bible...

Was Jonah in Sheol/Hades? Absolutely
Was Christ in Sheol/Hades for 3 days and 3 nights? Absolutely
Was Lazarus present along with Abraham in Sheol/Hades? Absolutely
Did Christ take Lazarus and all the OT saints in "Abraham's Bosom" to Heaven when He rose from the dead? Absolutely
Is there a biblical record that they are now in the New Jerusalem? Absolutely

Had this been a parable (a) there would have been no specific person or persons mentioned and (b) it would be illustrating some spiritual truth, since that is what the parables did. But there is no illustration here. The brutal facts of Sheol/Hades are presented by the one who actually created Sheol/Hades in the lower parts of the earth.

 

[posthuman]

Call Jesus a liar? Never.

do people cease to exist when they die?
what does Jesus say about that, and what do you say?

 

[posthuman]

I would challenge you to spend a full moon Halloween night in the safest place in town - a cemetery - for a $100, but you'd never show, though, right? You know them people are all dead...but not SURELY, right?

sounds great!
let's go
the cemetery is usually the most peaceful place in any city; i spent a lot of my childhood there
((lol @ you think the guy with the skeletal avatar is afraid of cemeteries??))

Better to go to the house of mourning​

than to go to the house of feasting,​

for that is the end of all men;​

and the living will take it to heart.​

(Ecclesiastes 7:2)​

​

​

a laundry basket, into which i will discard my cloak

 

[Phoneman-777]

Was Jonah in Sheol/Hades? Absolutely

No, he was in a fish belly.

Was Christ in Sheol/Hades for 3 days and 3 nights? Absolutely

Well, technically, His 3 days/nights in "the grave" ("Sheol/Hades") was not much more than 24 hours via Inclusive Reckoning.

Was Lazarus present along with Abraham in Sheol/Hades? Absolutely

Only in parable, but both impossible and Biblically contradicting in real life.

Did Christ take Lazarus and all the OT saints in "Abraham's Bosom" to Heaven when He rose from the dead? Absolutely

Where's does it say Jesus took anyone out of "Abraham's Bosom" or that He took "all" the saints that had ever gone to the grave to heaven? No where.

Is there a biblical record that they are now in the New Jerusalem? Absolutely

"They" who? Yes, there are some who are in heaven, but not "all".

Had this been a parable (a) there would have been no specific person or persons mentioned and (b) it would be illustrating some spiritual truth, since that is what the parables did. But there is no illustration here. The brutal facts of Sheol/Hades are presented by the one who actually created Sheol/Hades in the lower parts of the earth.

Had this passage been a literal story, there would be numerous contradictions with the other passages of Jesus, Solomon, David, Peter, Job, and others, as well as with common sense reality, like:

1. the dead in possession of knowledge, wisdom, emotions, memory, ability to break silence and devise plans
2. the dead in possession of their resurrection bodies before they are to receive them in the last day resurrection
3. a man totally on fire able to observe and interact with others as easily as a slightly annoyed Karen in Macy's
4. Abraham's bosom being the size of the moon to accommodate all the dead that lived the past 4,000 years
5. the dead able to return to and interact with those in the land of the living

Christians, the only way to avoid creating all these Scriptural contradictions which the Immortal Soul/Eternal Torment crowd has created for themselves is to accept that this passage in Luke 16 is merely a parable, and then attempt to discern what is the interpretation....OR JUST WATCH THE VIDEO AND SAVE A LOT OF TIME.

 

[Phoneman-777]

.
I believe God has a right to pick his friends just the same as anybody else.
Well; judging from several of Jesus' lectures, there are certain personality
types with whom God does not care to associate, and one of those types is
found in folks who lack the milk of human kindness.

When we get right down to it, the rich man went to the wrong side of the
afterlife not especially for anything he did, rather, because he's callous.

• Matt 5:7 . . Blessed are the merciful, for they shall obtain mercy.

Christ wasn't talking about forgiveness in that beatitude. The word for
"merciful" is eleemon (el-eh-ay'-mone) which means: compassionate (as an
adjective). And the word for "mercy" is eleeo (el-eh-eh'-o) which means: to
pity (as a verb).

So then, what Christ says is: if somebody is by nature cruel, hard hearted,
thoughtless, and insensitive; then they will get no sympathy from God.

NOTE: A contemporary example of the rich man's attitude towards lesser
fortunate souls than himself is North Korea's Kim Jong-Un: a dictator who
squanders billions on national defense while the growth of something like 30
to 40 percent of his citizen's children are stunted by malnutrition.

Adequate health care is available only to a relatively privileged few. There
are hospitals in North Korea without electricity and medications. Potable
water is another scarcity in North Korea; and fresh meats. Some people
there are actually subsisting on frogs, mice, dragon flies. and locusts. The
meanwhile, Kim has the best of everything; he's doing just fine.

You know, were North Koreans not forced to respect Kim under the penalty
of death, torture, and/or imprisonment, I seriously doubt anybody would.
Well; just you wait till Kim arrives in the netherworld. No doubt numbers of
people down there can hardly wait for a chance to scratch his eyes out.

I've heard it from ex felons that prison itself is not so bad. It's the society
inside that makes prison a living hell. Well; I just wish I could be on-site
down below for Kim's home-coming. I expect people down there will be all
over him like hungry ants on a grasshopper.
_

Friend, please don't be offended, but I can't figure out which of these you're more wrong about: your perception of the "afterlife" or of those with whom Jesus chose to keep company/avoid.

Jesus spent 3 1/2 years with a man He knew would betray Him trying to convince him to turn from his greed

 

[posthuman]

Well, technically, His 3 days/nights in "the grave" ("Sheol/Hades") was not much more than 24 hours via Inclusive Reckoning.

dang here you are calling God a liar again
a dog and his vomit

you got the wrong timeline buddy.
the correct timeline is the one that doesn't say God is bad at math.
God created math. He loves it.

reconcile yourself to Him, not Him to you