Interpreting the Parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus: It's Really Good News!

[posthuman]

"Let us not, therefore, be insensible to His kindness. For were He to reward us according to our works, we should cease to be"
Ignatius of Antioch

interesting, i was just reading his letter -- here's the full context of that snippet:

Be not deceived with strange doctrines, nor with old fables, which are unprofitable. For if we still live according to the Jewish law, we acknowledge that we have not received grace. For the divinest prophets lived according to Christ Jesus. On this account also they were persecuted, being inspired by His grace to fully convince the unbelieving that there is one God, who has manifested Himself by Jesus Christ His Son, who is His eternal Word, not proceeding forth from silence, and who in all things pleased Him that sent Him.​

​

If, therefore, those who were brought up in the ancient order of things have come to the possession of a new hope, no longer observing the Sabbath, but living in the observance of the Lord's Day, on which also our life has sprung up again by Him and by His death--whom some deny, by which mystery we have obtained faith, and therefore endure, that we may be found the disciples of Jesus Christ, our only Master--how shall we be able to live apart from Him, whose disciples the prophets themselves in the Spirit did wait for Him as their Teacher? And therefore He whom they rightly waited for, being come, raised them from the dead.​

​

Let us not, therefore, be insensible to His kindness. For were He to reward us according to our works, we should cease to be. Therefore, having become His disciples, let us learn to live according to the principles of Christianity. For whosoever is called by any other name besides this, is not of God. Lay aside, therefore, the evil, the old, the sour leaven, and be ye changed into the new leaven, which is Jesus Christ. Be ye salted in Him, lest any one among you should be corrupted, since by your savour ye shall be convicted. It is absurd to profess Christ Jesus, and to Judaize. For Christianity did not embrace Judaism, but Judaism Christianity, that so every tongue which believeth might be gathered together to God.



​

you can see that Ignatius ((who was taught directly by the apostles)) said this not in any kind of context of discussing the afterlife, but in the context of warning the church about being back-converted to Judaism. he makes an interesting comment about sabbath vs. 'Lord's day' here - one of the earliest on record ((lol, sorry SDA, wait, fake sorry, not really sorry at all)) -- but in the context he is making an argument about the continued existence of the church itself, saying that if it was not of God, it would not persist ((understanding that at this time they were all under extraordinary persecution)). so 'we would cease to be' is not about the existence of the soul, but about the existence of the church - which is not keeping sabbath, but calls itself servants of the God of Israel.
so the argument is not the annihilation of the soul, but that God would not allow the faith to continue if they were disobedient to His will, in particular, if they were truly serving the God of Israel, while they are openly disregarding sabbath, how would God be letting them go on doing what they are doing?

reading through the early church writings, one thing that is striking is that they simply do not spend much time at all, if any time at all, talking about fine points of doctrine and philosophy and eschatological details. they are waaaaaay more concerned, almost entirely concerned, with persisting in faith and in living as honorable and righteous lives as they can, being humble, gracious and loving, and enduring.


that said, in writing to the Romans about whether they should pray for him to avoid martyrdom, you can see quite readily that he certainly did not see physical death as cessation of existence. he was looking forward to it, understanding it just as he was taught by Paul, to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord - and actually tells them not to pray that he should go on living!
a long quote, to quote it, because he goes on for quite a while. i will put it in the next post.

 

[Sipsey]

This is an addition to my previous post;

Among proponents of the heresy of annihilationism, one often comes across two contradictory claims regarding the early church. On the one hand, those who seek to establish their view in the early church will claim that the earliest church fathers were all annihilationists/conditional immortalitists.

The introduction of concepts like the immortality of the soul, the intermediate state, and hell as everlasting conscious torment, they will go on to claim, came after the church began to be influenced by pagan Greek philosophy. On the other hand, there are others who claim that the church fathers, even as early as Justin Martyr, corrupted the pure teaching of the Bible by mixing in ideas from pagan Greek philosophy.

While the reductionist approach to the church’s early post-apostolic days can support any view one likes — this is, after all, the approach taken by the Roman Catholic apologists, Jehovah’s Witnesses, Seventh Day Adventists, and even the Mormons who share virtually nothing in common theologically — it does not withstand scrutiny. A reading of the texts from that time reveals that there was not only a diversity of beliefs regarding the immortality of the soul among the Greek philosophers, but nuances of articulation that set the Christian fathers apart from both the Orphic and Platonic immortalists and the Stoic and Epicurean annihilationists of their time.

If one has the time to devote to doing their own detailed research of the writers of this time, in other words, it would be evident to him that the church fathers did not deny the immortality of the soul, nor did they believe in Plato’s version of the doctrine. Instead, they carefully selected philosophical terminology and concepts, reworking them to express what they believed the Scriptures clearly taught about death, salvation, resurrection, and damnation.

Since such a study requires time and resources many do not have, a scholarly but readable book on the subject is best suited to their needs. Among the few written exclusively about these issues, Jeremiah Mutie’s Death in Second-Century Christian Thought: The Meaning of Death in Earliest Christianity is an invaluable resource.

Mutie carefully examines the socio-historical context of the early church fathers, comparing their views of death and the afterlife to those articulated within the overarching culture in which they found themselves, thereby clarifying the relationship between the earlier and later church fathers examined whose language about death, the intermediate state, and resurrection may seem to be at odds, prima facie.

 

[posthuman]

that said, in writing to the Romans about whether they should pray for him to avoid martyrdom, you can see quite readily that he certainly did not see physical death as cessation of existence. he was looking forward to it, understanding it just as he was taught by Paul, to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord - and actually tells them not to pray that he should go on living!
a long quote, to quote it, because he goes on for quite a while. i will put it in the next post.

For it is not my desire to act towards you as a man-pleaser, but as pleasing God, even as also ye please Him. For neither shall I ever have such [another] opportunity of attaining to God; nor will ye, if ye shall now be silent, ever be entitled to the honour of a better work. For if ye are silent concerning me, I shall become God's; but if you show your love to my flesh, I shall again have to run my race. Pray, then, do not seek to confer any greater favour upon me than that I be sacrificed to God while the altar is still prepared; that, being gathered together in love, ye may sing praise to the Father, through Christ Jesus, that God has deemed me, the bishop of Syria, worthy to be sent for from the east unto the west. It is good to set from the world unto God, that I may rise again to Him.​

​

Ye have never envied anyone; ye have taught others. Now I desire that those things may be confirmed [by your conduct], which in your instructions ye enjoin [on others]. Only request in my behalf both inward and outward strength, that I may not only speak, but [truly] will, so that I may not merely be called a Christian, but really found to be one. For if I be truly found [a Christian], I may also be called one, and be then deemed faithful, when I shall no longer appear to the world. Nothing visible is eternal. "For the things which are seen are temporal, but the things which are not seen are eternal. The Christian is not the result of persuasion, but of power. When he is hated by the world, he is beloved of God. For says [the Scripture], "If ye were of this world, the world would love its own; but now ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of it: continue in fellowship with me."​

​

I write to all the Churches, and impress on them all, that I shall willingly die for God, unless ye hinder me. I beseech of you not to show an unseasonable goodwill towards me. Suffer me to become food for the wild beasts, through whose instrumentality it will be granted me to attain to God. I am the wheat of God, and am ground by the teeth of the wild beasts, that I may be found the pure bread of God. Rather entice the wild beasts, that they may become my tomb, and may leave nothing of my body; so that when I have fallen asleep [in death], I may not be found troublesome to any one. Then shall I be a true disciple of Jesus Christ, when the world shall not see so much as my body. Entreat the Lord for me, that by these instruments I may be found a sacrifice to God. I do not, as Peter and Paul, issue commandments unto you. They were apostles of Jesus Christ, but I am the very least [of believers]: they were free, as the servants of God; while I am, even until now, a servant. But when I suffer, I shall be the freedman of Jesus Christ, and shall rise again emancipated in Him. And now, being in bonds for Him, I learn not to desire anything worldly or vain.​

​

From Syria even unto Rome I fight with beasts, both by land and sea, both by night and day, being bound to ten leopards, I mean a band of soldiers, who, even when they receive benefits, show themselves all the worse. But I am the more instructed by their injuries [to act as a disciple of Christ]; "yet am I not thereby justified." May I enjoy the wild beasts that are prepared for me; and I pray that they may be found eager to rush upon me, which also I will entice to devour me speedily, and not deal with me as with some, whom, out of fear, they have not touched. But if they be unwilling to assail me, I will compel them to do so. Pardon me [in this] I know what is for my benefit. Now I begin to be a disciple. And let no one, of things visible or invisible, envy me that I should attain to Jesus Christ. Let fire and the cross; let the crowds of wild beasts; let tearings, breakings, and dislocations of bones; let cutting off of members; let shatterings of the whole body; and let all the dreadful torments of the devil come upon me: only let me attain to Jesus Christ.​

​

All the pleasures of the world, and all the kingdoms of this earth, shall profit me nothing. It is better for me to die in behalf of Jesus Christ, than to reign over all the ends of the earth. "For what shall a man be profited, if he gain the whole world, but lose his own soul?'' Him I seek, who died for us: Him I desire, who rose again for our sake. This is the gain which is laid up for me. Pardon me, brethren: do not hinder me from living, do not wish to keep me in a state of death; and while I desire to belong to God, do not ye give me over to the world. Suffer me to obtain pure light: when I have gone thither, I shall indeed be a man of God. Permit me to be an imitator of the passion of my God. If any one has Him within himself, let him consider what I desire, and let him have sympathy with me, as knowing how I am straitened.​

​

The prince of this world would fain carry me away, and corrupt my disposition towards God. Let none of you, therefore, who are [in Rome] help him; rather be ye on my side, that is, on the side of God. Do not speak of Jesus Christ, and yet set your desires on the world. Let not envy find a dwelling-place among you; nor even should I, when present with you, exhort you to it, be ye persuaded to listen to me, but rather give credit to those things which I now write to you. For though I am alive while I write to you, yet I am eager to die. My love has been crucified, and there is no fire in me desiring to be fed; but there is within me a water that liveth and speaketh, saying to me inwardly, Come to the Father. I have no delight in corruptible food, nor in the pleasures of this life. I desire the bread of God, the heavenly bread, the bread of life, which is the flesh of Jesus Christ, the Son of God, who became afterwards of the seed of David and Abraham; and I desire the drink of God, namely His blood, which is incorruptible love and eternal life.​

​

I no longer wish to live after the manner of men, and my desire shall be fulfilled if ye consent. Be ye willing, then, that ye also may have your desires fulfilled. I entreat you in this brief letter; do ye give credit to me. Jesus Christ will reveal these things to you, [so that ye shall know] that I speak truly. He is the mouth altogether free from falsehood, by which the Father has truly spoken. Pray ye for me, that I may attain [the object of my desire]. I have not written to you according to the flesh, but according to the will of God. If I shall suffer, ye have wished [well] to me; but if I am rejected, ye have hated me.


Ignatius of Antioch, to the Romans ((early 100's AD))​

 

[posthuman]

For it is not my desire to act towards you as a man-pleaser, but as pleasing God, even as also ye please Him. For neither shall I ever have such [another] opportunity of attaining to God; nor will ye, if ye shall now be silent, ever be entitled to the honour of a better work. For if ye are silent concerning me, I shall become God's; but if you show your love to my flesh, I shall again have to run my race. Pray, then, do not seek to confer any greater favour upon me than that I be sacrificed to God while the altar is still prepared; that, being gathered together in love, ye may sing praise to the Father, through Christ Jesus, that God has deemed me, the bishop of Syria, worthy to be sent for from the east unto the west. It is good to set from the world unto God, that I may rise again to Him.​

​

Ye have never envied anyone; ye have taught others. Now I desire that those things may be confirmed [by your conduct], which in your instructions ye enjoin [on others]. Only request in my behalf both inward and outward strength, that I may not only speak, but [truly] will, so that I may not merely be called a Christian, but really found to be one. For if I be truly found [a Christian], I may also be called one, and be then deemed faithful, when I shall no longer appear to the world. Nothing visible is eternal. "For the things which are seen are temporal, but the things which are not seen are eternal. The Christian is not the result of persuasion, but of power. When he is hated by the world, he is beloved of God. For says [the Scripture], "If ye were of this world, the world would love its own; but now ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of it: continue in fellowship with me."​

​

I write to all the Churches, and impress on them all, that I shall willingly die for God, unless ye hinder me. I beseech of you not to show an unseasonable goodwill towards me. Suffer me to become food for the wild beasts, through whose instrumentality it will be granted me to attain to God. I am the wheat of God, and am ground by the teeth of the wild beasts, that I may be found the pure bread of God. Rather entice the wild beasts, that they may become my tomb, and may leave nothing of my body; so that when I have fallen asleep [in death], I may not be found troublesome to any one. Then shall I be a true disciple of Jesus Christ, when the world shall not see so much as my body. Entreat the Lord for me, that by these instruments I may be found a sacrifice to God. I do not, as Peter and Paul, issue commandments unto you. They were apostles of Jesus Christ, but I am the very least [of believers]: they were free, as the servants of God; while I am, even until now, a servant. But when I suffer, I shall be the freedman of Jesus Christ, and shall rise again emancipated in Him. And now, being in bonds for Him, I learn not to desire anything worldly or vain.​

​

From Syria even unto Rome I fight with beasts, both by land and sea, both by night and day, being bound to ten leopards, I mean a band of soldiers, who, even when they receive benefits, show themselves all the worse. But I am the more instructed by their injuries [to act as a disciple of Christ]; "yet am I not thereby justified." May I enjoy the wild beasts that are prepared for me; and I pray that they may be found eager to rush upon me, which also I will entice to devour me speedily, and not deal with me as with some, whom, out of fear, they have not touched. But if they be unwilling to assail me, I will compel them to do so. Pardon me [in this] I know what is for my benefit. Now I begin to be a disciple. And let no one, of things visible or invisible, envy me that I should attain to Jesus Christ. Let fire and the cross; let the crowds of wild beasts; let tearings, breakings, and dislocations of bones; let cutting off of members; let shatterings of the whole body; and let all the dreadful torments of the devil come upon me: only let me attain to Jesus Christ.​

​

All the pleasures of the world, and all the kingdoms of this earth, shall profit me nothing. It is better for me to die in behalf of Jesus Christ, than to reign over all the ends of the earth. "For what shall a man be profited, if he gain the whole world, but lose his own soul?'' Him I seek, who died for us: Him I desire, who rose again for our sake. This is the gain which is laid up for me. Pardon me, brethren: do not hinder me from living, do not wish to keep me in a state of death; and while I desire to belong to God, do not ye give me over to the world. Suffer me to obtain pure light: when I have gone thither, I shall indeed be a man of God. Permit me to be an imitator of the passion of my God. If any one has Him within himself, let him consider what I desire, and let him have sympathy with me, as knowing how I am straitened.​

​

The prince of this world would fain carry me away, and corrupt my disposition towards God. Let none of you, therefore, who are [in Rome] help him; rather be ye on my side, that is, on the side of God. Do not speak of Jesus Christ, and yet set your desires on the world. Let not envy find a dwelling-place among you; nor even should I, when present with you, exhort you to it, be ye persuaded to listen to me, but rather give credit to those things which I now write to you. For though I am alive while I write to you, yet I am eager to die. My love has been crucified, and there is no fire in me desiring to be fed; but there is within me a water that liveth and speaketh, saying to me inwardly, Come to the Father. I have no delight in corruptible food, nor in the pleasures of this life. I desire the bread of God, the heavenly bread, the bread of life, which is the flesh of Jesus Christ, the Son of God, who became afterwards of the seed of David and Abraham; and I desire the drink of God, namely His blood, which is incorruptible love and eternal life.​

​

I no longer wish to live after the manner of men, and my desire shall be fulfilled if ye consent. Be ye willing, then, that ye also may have your desires fulfilled. I entreat you in this brief letter; do ye give credit to me. Jesus Christ will reveal these things to you, [so that ye shall know] that I speak truly. He is the mouth altogether free from falsehood, by which the Father has truly spoken. Pray ye for me, that I may attain [the object of my desire]. I have not written to you according to the flesh, but according to the will of God. If I shall suffer, ye have wished [well] to me; but if I am rejected, ye have hated me.​

​

​

Ignatius of Antioch, to the Romans ((early 100's AD))​

extremely clear here that he did not expect to cease to exist just because his spirit and earthly body would be separated!!

 

[posthuman]

You would do well to break your lengthy post’s into bite-sized chunks. I write for magazines and gather regularly with seasons authors and academics that decry long paragraphs as, “Unreadable by the general public.”

who are you calling "general public"

lol!

 

[Sipsey]

who are you calling "general public"

lol!

Alas, I decry labels as much as you, but I confess to being a generally public sinner, saved by a most peculiar faith.😊

 

[Absolutely]

Question;

This thread hopes to "prove" hell is not forever.

Is it just some interesting trivia, or is it personal ,to possibly prove, rejection of Christ ,and some tenure in hell,is a speed bump that eventually leads a person back to heaven?

Or, is it a theory that those goats at the gwtj just go into some dementia or oblivion?

 

[posthuman]

Since such a study requires time and resources many do not have, a scholarly but readable book on the subject is best suited to their needs. Among the few written exclusively about these issues, Jeremiah Mutie’s Death in Second-Century Christian Thought: The Meaning of Death in Earliest Christianity is an invaluable resource.

thanks!

i certainly don't have time to do anything more than spend a weekend afternoon reading and wondering - and you're 100% right it takes way more study to speak intelligently about what 100's of years of ancient high philosophy & thinking really was. going to look up that book

 

[Runningman]

interesting, i was just reading his letter -- here's the full context of that snippet:

Be not deceived with strange doctrines, nor with old fables, which are unprofitable. For if we still live according to the Jewish law, we acknowledge that we have not received grace. For the divinest prophets lived according to Christ Jesus. On this account also they were persecuted, being inspired by His grace to fully convince the unbelieving that there is one God, who has manifested Himself by Jesus Christ His Son, who is His eternal Word, not proceeding forth from silence, and who in all things pleased Him that sent Him.​

​

If, therefore, those who were brought up in the ancient order of things have come to the possession of a new hope, no longer observing the Sabbath, but living in the observance of the Lord's Day, on which also our life has sprung up again by Him and by His death--whom some deny, by which mystery we have obtained faith, and therefore endure, that we may be found the disciples of Jesus Christ, our only Master--how shall we be able to live apart from Him, whose disciples the prophets themselves in the Spirit did wait for Him as their Teacher? And therefore He whom they rightly waited for, being come, raised them from the dead.​

​

Let us not, therefore, be insensible to His kindness. For were He to reward us according to our works, we should cease to be. Therefore, having become His disciples, let us learn to live according to the principles of Christianity. For whosoever is called by any other name besides this, is not of God. Lay aside, therefore, the evil, the old, the sour leaven, and be ye changed into the new leaven, which is Jesus Christ. Be ye salted in Him, lest any one among you should be corrupted, since by your savour ye shall be convicted. It is absurd to profess Christ Jesus, and to Judaize. For Christianity did not embrace Judaism, but Judaism Christianity, that so every tongue which believeth might be gathered together to God.​

​

​

​

​

you can see that Ignatius ((who was taught directly by the apostles)) said this not in any kind of context of discussing the afterlife, but in the context of warning the church about being back-converted to Judaism. he makes an interesting comment about sabbath vs. 'Lord's day' here - one of the earliest on record ((lol, sorry SDA, wait, fake sorry, not really sorry at all)) -- but in the context he is making an argument about the continued existence of the church itself, saying that if it was not of God, it would not persist ((understanding that at this time they were all under extraordinary persecution)). so 'we would cease to be' is not about the existence of the soul, but about the existence of the church - which is not keeping sabbath, but calls itself servants of the God of Israel.
so the argument is not the annihilation of the soul, but that God would not allow the faith to continue if they were disobedient to His will, in particular, if they were truly serving the God of Israel, while they are openly disregarding sabbath, how would God be letting them go on doing what they are doing?

reading through the early church writings, one thing that is striking is that they simply do not spend much time at all, if any time at all, talking about fine points of doctrine and philosophy and eschatological details. they are waaaaaay more concerned, almost entirely concerned, with persisting in faith and in living as honorable and righteous lives as they can, being humble, gracious and loving, and enduring.


that said, in writing to the Romans about whether they should pray for him to avoid martyrdom, you can see quite readily that he certainly did not see physical death as cessation of existence. he was looking forward to it, understanding it just as he was taught by Paul, to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord - and actually tells them not to pray that he should go on living!
a long quote, to quote it, because he goes on for quite a while. i will put it in the next post.

Once again, couldn't disagree more with you. His letter is written to practicing Christians. It isn't even a debate that Ignatius was a conditionalist (annihilationist). He's saying what the Bible says: don't take God's grace for granted and be grateful that He isn't dealing with us the way we deserve, according to our sins, with the punishment of death.

"Let us not, therefore, be insensible to His kindness. For were He to reward us according to our works, we should cease to be."
-Ignatius

Psalm 103:10
10He hath not dealt with us after our sins; nor rewarded us according to our iniquities.

Romans 6:1-2; 23
1What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? 2God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
23For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

 

[Runningman]

This is an addition to my previous post;

Among proponents of the heresy of annihilationism, one often comes across two contradictory claims regarding the early church. On the one hand, those who seek to establish their view in the early church will claim that the earliest church fathers were all annihilationists/conditional immortalitists.

The introduction of concepts like the immortality of the soul, the intermediate state, and hell as everlasting conscious torment, they will go on to claim, came after the church began to be influenced by pagan Greek philosophy. On the other hand, there are others who claim that the church fathers, even as early as Justin Martyr, corrupted the pure teaching of the Bible by mixing in ideas from pagan Greek philosophy.

While the reductionist approach to the church’s early post-apostolic days can support any view one likes — this is, after all, the approach taken by the Roman Catholic apologists, Jehovah’s Witnesses, Seventh Day Adventists, and even the Mormons who share virtually nothing in common theologically — it does not withstand scrutiny. A reading of the texts from that time reveals that there was not only a diversity of beliefs regarding the immortality of the soul among the Greek philosophers, but nuances of articulation that set the Christian fathers apart from both the Orphic and Platonic immortalists and the Stoic and Epicurean annihilationists of their time.

If one has the time to devote to doing their own detailed research of the writers of this time, in other words, it would be evident to him that the church fathers did not deny the immortality of the soul, nor did they believe in Plato’s version of the doctrine. Instead, they carefully selected philosophical terminology and concepts, reworking them to express what they believed the Scriptures clearly taught about death, salvation, resurrection, and damnation.

Since such a study requires time and resources many do not have, a scholarly but readable book on the subject is best suited to their needs. Among the few written exclusively about these issues, Jeremiah Mutie’s Death in Second-Century Christian Thought: The Meaning of Death in Earliest Christianity is an invaluable resource.

Mutie carefully examines the socio-historical context of the early church fathers, comparing their views of death and the afterlife to those articulated within the overarching culture in which they found themselves, thereby clarifying the relationship between the earlier and later church fathers examined whose language about death, the intermediate state, and resurrection may seem to be at odds, prima facie.

The Bible and the early church fathers disagree with you.

 

[Runningman]

extremely clear here that he did not expect to cease to exist just because his spirit and earthly body would be separated!!

No, what's clear is you are desperate to word-smith Ignatius' clear words into something he didn't even say. That shows agenda. Once again, he was speaking to practicing Christians. His stance in the early church was that God destroys sinners utterly and completely. Don't take my word for it, check every scholarly source about him.

 

[Runningman]

Again, I would like to reiterate this. Eternal punishing, as you’re describing, would be never needing. As you’re surely aware of belt now, there are many verses that say the wicked are destroyed, perish, and are put to death. This is the correct teaching and this is what I actively preach st every opportunity I get.

Wow just looked over one of my previous posts and autocorrect butchered it without me even noticing at first. I'll correct it now:

Again, I would like to reiterate this. Eternal punishing, as you’re describing, would be never ending. As you’re surely aware of by now, there are many verses that say the wicked are destroyed, perish, and are put to death. This is the correct teaching and this is what I actively preach at every opportunity I get.

 

[posthuman]

the reason he was kicked out of heaven was because he wanted to be God too, right or wrong?

wrong, again.
to be 'like' the Most High. Isaiah 14:14 ((any literal translation will do))

Matthew 24:12-13

love that grows cold is not love that ceases to exist; it is cooled love.
the word ψύχω there is interesting - it literally means to blow cool with the breath of one's mouth.
that's not extinguishment or cessation of being; it's reduction of temperature. by what breath?
who cools love with the spirit that comes forth from his mouth because of the increase of iniquity?
why?
you think He breathes on us in order to utterly annihilate His dearly beloved whom He bought with His own blood and of whom He will lose none?

you should probably keep quiet.

 

[posthuman]

No, what's clear is you are desperate to word-smith Ignatius' clear words into something he didn't even say. That shows agenda. Once again, he was speaking to practicing Christians. His stance in the early church was that God destroys sinners utterly and completely. Don't take my word for it, check every scholarly source about him.

speaking of scholarly sources, i was just looking at an article maybe you would like to peruse:

http://www.biblicaltrinitarian.com/2018/09/irenaeus-vs-annihilationists.html

it's a bit thick, but maybe that breadth will impress on you how big of an undertaking the subject is, that it should be treated with a lot of diligence, and that it takes a lot more than one out-of-context snippet of a sentence to demonstrate.

 

[Journeyman]

No
It is after the mil.

The thousand years is like a day to God, a day in which Christ and his followers governed in the love and mercy of God on earth. That time is now.

The unsaved appear before God in his presence without being burned up. No lake of fire in his presence.

They're being burned up when they appear before him. The unsaved are tormented by the truth about themselves, exposed by the light Christ and then they're finished.

It is a separate place built or prepared for the devil and his demons

It's judgement day that was prepared for the devil and his angels,

A river of fire was streaming forth and proceeding from his presence. Dan.7:10

 

[posthuman]

In the same manner, therefore, as Christ did rise in the substance of flesh, and pointed out to His disciples the mark of the nails and the opening in His side (now these are the tokens of that flesh which rose from the dead), so "shall He also," it is said, "raise us up by His own power." And again to the Romans he says, "But if the Spirit of Him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, He that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies."​

​

What, then, are mortal bodies? Can they be souls? Nay, for souls are incorporeal when put in comparison with mortal bodies; for God "breathed into the face of man the breath of life, and man became a living soul." Now the breath of life is an incorporeal thing. And certainly they cannot maintain that the very breath of life is mortal. Therefore David says, "My soul also shall live to Him," just as if its substance were immortal. Neither, on the other hand, can they say that the spirit is the mortal body.​

​

What therefore is there left to which we may apply the term "mortal body," unless it be the thing that was moulded, that is, the flesh, of which it is also said that God will vivify it? For this it is which dies and is decomposed, but not the soul or the spirit. For to die is to lose vital power, and to become henceforth breathless, inanimate, and devoid of motion, and to melt away into those [component parts] from which also it derived the commencement of [its] substance.​

​

But this event happens neither to the soul, for it is the breath of life; nor to the spirit, for the spirit is simple and not composite, so that it cannot be decomposed, and is itself the life of those who receive it. We must therefore conclude that it is in reference to the flesh that death is mentioned; which [flesh], after the soul's departure, becomes breathless and inanimate, and is decomposed gradually into the earth from which it was taken. ​

​

This, then, is what is mortal. And it is this of which he also says," He shall also quicken your mortal bodies." And therefore in reference to it he says, in the first [Epistle] to the Corinthians: "So also is the resurrection of the dead: it is sown in corruption, it rises in incorruption." For he declares, "That which thou sowest cannot be quickened, unless first it die." ​

​

- Irenaeus, Against Heresies, book V ch. VII​

​

​

@Runningman
Irenaeus pretty directly addresses many of the topics in this thread right here.
he calls annihilationism heresy.
he says man is not just a soul, just a spirit, or just a body -- but made of all three.
he says the body alone is mortal - and even it only decomposes, not ceases utterly - but the soul and the spirit are explicitly not.

@Phoneman-777
Irenaeus calls your weird doctrine out specifically as heresy.
the soul does not cease to exist when it is separated from the body.
you have been rebuked countless times in this thread over it - please stop.

 

[Absolutely]

The thousand years is like a day to God, a day in which Christ and his followers governed in the love and mercy of God on earth. That time is now.


They're being burned up when they appear before him. The unsaved are tormented by the truth about themselves, exposed by the light Christ and then they're finished.


It's judgement day that was prepared for the devil and his angels,

A river of fire was streaming forth and proceeding from his presence. Dan.7:10

That is flat out wrong.
Rev 21
8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death..

Lof is a separate place built or prepared for the devil and his angels.

Rev 19
20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

Rev20
them.

10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.


14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

They are NOT burned up in Gods presence but cast into a place APART from His presence.

 

[posthuman]

No, what's clear is you are desperate to word-smith Ignatius' clear words into something he didn't even say. That shows agenda. Once again, he was speaking to practicing Christians. His stance in the early church was that God destroys sinners utterly and completely. Don't take my word for it, check every scholarly source about him.

Even if I completely ignored the context of his words, as you wish me to, your assertion that he is teaching annihilation is not supported here. He is referring clearly to the psalms -

Psalms 130:3-4
If You, LORD, should mark iniquities,
O Lord, who could stand?
But there is forgiveness with You,
that You may be feared

Does David say all are annihilated here?
Nope. He says God is gracious towards mankind.
And that is what the old Saint also said, that God does not judge mankind according to our works, without mercy.

 

[Runningman]

In the same manner, therefore, as Christ did rise in the substance of flesh, and pointed out to His disciples the mark of the nails and the opening in His side (now these are the tokens of that flesh which rose from the dead), so "shall He also," it is said, "raise us up by His own power." And again to the Romans he says, "But if the Spirit of Him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, He that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies."​

​

What, then, are mortal bodies? Can they be souls? Nay, for souls are incorporeal when put in comparison with mortal bodies; for God "breathed into the face of man the breath of life, and man became a living soul." Now the breath of life is an incorporeal thing. And certainly they cannot maintain that the very breath of life is mortal. Therefore David says, "My soul also shall live to Him," just as if its substance were immortal. Neither, on the other hand, can they say that the spirit is the mortal body.​

​

What therefore is there left to which we may apply the term "mortal body," unless it be the thing that was moulded, that is, the flesh, of which it is also said that God will vivify it? For this it is which dies and is decomposed, but not the soul or the spirit. For to die is to lose vital power, and to become henceforth breathless, inanimate, and devoid of motion, and to melt away into those [component parts] from which also it derived the commencement of [its] substance.​

​

But this event happens neither to the soul, for it is the breath of life; nor to the spirit, for the spirit is simple and not composite, so that it cannot be decomposed, and is itself the life of those who receive it. We must therefore conclude that it is in reference to the flesh that death is mentioned; which [flesh], after the soul's departure, becomes breathless and inanimate, and is decomposed gradually into the earth from which it was taken. ​

​

This, then, is what is mortal. And it is this of which he also says," He shall also quicken your mortal bodies." And therefore in reference to it he says, in the first [Epistle] to the Corinthians: "So also is the resurrection of the dead: it is sown in corruption, it rises in incorruption." For he declares, "That which thou sowest cannot be quickened, unless first it die." ​

​

- Irenaeus, Against Heresies, book V ch. VII​

​

​

@Runningman
Irenaeus pretty directly addresses many of the topics in this thread right here.
he calls annihilationism heresy.
he says man is not just a soul, just a spirit, or just a body -- but made of all three.
he says the body alone is mortal - and even it only decomposes, not ceases utterly - but the soul and the spirit are explicitly not.

@Phoneman-777
Irenaeus calls your weird doctrine out specifically as heresy.
the soul does not cease to exist when it is separated from the body.
you have been rebuked countless times in this thread over it - please stop.

You seem to think this snippet means that Irenaeus is saying that the soul is immortal:


"What, then, are mortal bodies? Can they be souls? Nay, for souls are incorporeal when put in comparison with mortal bodies; for God "breathed into the face of man the breath of life, and man became a living soul." Now the breath of life is an incorporeal thing. And certainly they cannot maintain that the very breath of life is mortal. Therefore David says, "My soul also shall live to Him," just as if its substance were immortal. Neither, on the other hand, can they say that the spirit is the mortal body."
-Irenaeus

It says the soul, compared to the human body, is incorporeal or not made of matter like mortal human bodies are. He isn't saying that the soul itself is immortal. Irenaeus is quite clear and I agree with everything he is saying, but it doesn't mean what you seem to think it does. He's very specific about his belief the "breath of life" is immortal, but the "breath of life" is not the soul. The breath of life is God's creative force or energy He uses to put souls into people.

Notice he says here "Therefore David says, "My soul also shall live to Him," just as if its substance were immortal. " ... "Just as if its substance were immortal..." Irenaeus is saying the substance of the soul is the breath of life (but they are not the same things) which is from God and immortal, but he didn't say the soul is immortal.

People back then talked rather convoluted at times, but I find it's often more precise than our modern English. In modern English, when we are comparing two things and call on of the two things mortal, it may be tempting to believe it is inferring or suggesting the other thing must be immortal. That just isn't how he meant it.

 

[Phoneman-777]

Yes, in the sense of what is physically around you. But as I said before, dreaming is proof that our inward self still experiences awareness even when we sleep.

Cognitive activity is now "spiritual activity"? Cognitive activity, though mental, is still reliant on our physical existence - dead people don't think, know, plan, feel emotions, OR DREAM.

The rest of the Bible's usage of "soul" narrows the range of meaning for the way "nephesh" can legitimately be translated in Genesis 2:7. (read that again)
For example, Paul says that the "spirit and soul and body" are all separate components of the "entire" human (1 Thes 5:23).

Paul's use of "spirit/soul/body" is the same as if a mom says to the kids, "I want the our kitchen, our bathrooms, our bedrooms, our house, cleaned up."
See what I did there? I showed you that the "whole" can be lumped in with the "parts" when a sentiment concerning both the whole and the sum of its parts is expressed simultaneously leaving 1 Thessalonians 5:23 KJV in full harmony with Genesis 2:7 KJV, unlike your disharmonious interpretation that "the soul is a component".

Idioms appear in literal historical narratives all the time (Jhn 2:4, Act 7:51, Judg 11:40, Gen 27:8). The existence of figurative language doesn't make a passage parabolic. "Abraham's bosom" is one of many examples of figurative language in a literal scenario.

What about the other figurative elements of the passage?

• Abraham's bosom is clearly symbolic - unless it's several square miles in size
• dead people don't get their bodies until they are "changed" in the still-future resurrection
• dead people can't communicate - they "go down into silence"
• dead people return not to the land of the living - no involvement with anything "under the sun"
• dead people can't devise plans to warn relatives - there's "no device" in the grave
• dead people can't return to warn anybody - they "return no more to his house"
• dead people are not yet in torment - they're "reserved...unto the day of Judgment...to be punished".

What is the threshold ratio of symbolism/literalism before you guys will admit the passage is symbolic? 100%? That seems that is the case!

Circular reasoning. John saw disembodied saints in heaven, who had been martyred on the earth in Revelation ch 6 and ch 20.

John also saw a seven-headed, ten-horned, 4-creature composite beast...we gonna argue that's as literal as your souls under the altar?

Authority comes from Scripture, not Tyndale. I have presented Scripture that communicates a simple and powerful syllogism.
He is "the God of Abraham" + He is "The God of the living" = Abraham is alive.

No, your authority comes from the Papacy, which is why I keep asking why the flip do you guys just up and join with it, since your doctrines so clearly oppose Protestantism and line up with Catholicism? Christ said "He is the God of the living" to prove the resurrection, not that false pagan/papal idea that the saints are already in heaven,.

Yeah...spiritually imprisoned in Sheol.
“in which also He went and preached to the spirits now in prison, who once were disobedient...during the construction of the ark.” (1 Peter 3:19–20)
When Jesus died, He went somewhere and he preached to those who disobeyed in Noah's day.

The word "now" is not in the Textus Receptus or the KJV. Once again, you're found reading a version based on the Critical Greek NT MSS which has the papal stamp of approval. Christ didn't preach to anyone when He died. He rested in the tomb on the Sabbath from His work of redemption as the Lamb of God, before resuming His work after the Sabbath as our Savior and High Priest.

“And Jesus said to him, “Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise.” (Luke 23:43) That very day, the thief on the cross went to the same place as Lazarous..."Paradise", where Abraham is. That very day, Jesus went to Sheol to get David (Ps 16:10). “He descended into the lower parts of the earth” (Ephesians 4:9)
The saints who died before the cross... their sins weren't paid for yet, they waited in the paradise side of Sheol (Hades) for the Messiah to come rescue them from their current state.

Look, bro, you're not dealing with your everyday, propagandized Christian who never challenges such ideas. Every bit of what you said here is unBiblical conjecture. Neither Jesus nor the thief went to Paradise that Friday because the thief was still alive as the sun was setting as Jesus was being taken down dead from the Cross, and Jesus Himself told Mary "I have not yet ascended to the Father" Sunday morning which is where Paradise is...up there, not down here. Proof? Paradise is in the "third heaven" where God's "throne" is, and where the "River of Life" is and I'm happy to get the verses which undeniably prove that. Please stop trying to put Paradise in a subterranean chamber below the Earth and calling it "Abraham's bosom" or "spirit prison" or whatever else it's called, OK?
Also, David "is not ascended" but is still in his tomb and will remain there with all the dead in Christ "until Thy enemies are made Thy footstool" which is still future, OK? Please don't try to argue that Peter was referring to "David's body" like people do every time a truth about the dead is spoken in Scripture, OK? Even the stupidest Biblical imbecile knows that "dead bodies" can't think, talk, reason, praise God, etc., and know their bones are yet there rotting away, having not ascended anywhere. "David" the whole human creature Soul comprised of a Body and Breath of Life was not ascended to heaven, but remains dead until the resurrection, not just his "body".

When someone conquered another people group, the survivors of war would become captives of the victor. In this case, Christ conquered Death and took the captives of Death as His own captives. They were captives of Death because Death had a hold on them. When Jesus died on the cross, He reversed what Adam did in the garden, He became the highest bidder of their soul, for there is nothing more valuable than His blood. Redemption's work was complete, and it was time for the Redeemed to come home.

Wrong again. The Bible says that "many" sleeping saints that came out of their tombs and ascended with Jesus, but it doesn't say "ALL" the saints...because they are the "firstfruits of the resurrection".

Let me ask you, did the Feast of Firstfruits entail the entire blessed harvest, or just several sheafs of harvest, which were offered in faith that the entire harvest would eventually come in? Likewise, these "many" saints resurrected as a promise and a token that God will eventually bring ALL saints to heaven, but not at death, but at the "end of the world".