Is Catholicism Christian? Are Catholics Saved?

Ernie07 · Dec 29, 2017

Hi Jackson,

I totally appreciate where you're coming from, I truly do. What does being "in line with the Bible" really mean and who determines whether you are "in line"? Many on this site believe that the Holy Spirit personally leads them to the truth and yet there are multiple versions people claim to be the truth. Jesus prayed for unity so how in the world does individual interpretations leading to differing individual beliefs led supposedly by the same Holy Spirit promote unity?

Jesus created a Church, that Church started out as both single and universal. This was Jesus' Church. There was no other group even claiming to be Jesus' Church. This Christian Church had unity in their beliefs just as Jesus prayed. This Church taught the truth just as Jesus promised. And now there are people that want you to believe that this Christian Church got it wrong and somehow the Holy Spirit now speaks to them the real truth. And they don't realize by saying this they are calling Jesus a liar...one that says He would do something (build and protect His Church) and then doesn't do it.

Google "church councils" and read what they believed. It's there for anyone to see and study. The first 7 of these were with the Christian Church that basically went unopposed except for some heretical groups. The rest are with what we today call the Catholic Church because they aligned with the beliefs of the early Christian Church. Don't get confused by thinking that the first 7 was with that nasty Catholic organization...it was The Christian Church. Later those councils included only the Catholic Church because of a split and then because of heretical Christian groups forming that stopped believing in what the Church always believed.

-Ernie-

Ernie07 · Dec 29, 2017

fredoheaven said:

In agreement with CH Spurgeon...
C.h. spurgeon on baptist perpetuity
"We believe that the Baptists are the original Christians. We did not commence our existence at thereformation, we were reformers before Luther or Calvin were born; we never came from the Church of Rome, for we were never in it, but we have an unbroken line up to the apostles themselves. We have always existed from the very days of Christ, and our principles, sometimes veiled and forgotten, like a river which may travel underground for a little season, have always had honest and holy adherents. Persecuted alike by Romanists and Protestants of almost every sect, yet there has never existed a Government holding Baptist principles which persecuted others; nor I believe any body of Baptists ever held it to be right to put the consciences of others under the control of man. We have ever been ready to suffer, as our martyrologies will prove, but we are not ready to accept any help from the State, to prostitute the purity of the Bride of Christ to any alliance with the government, and we will never make the Church, although the Queen, the despot over the consciences of men". (From The New Park Street Pulpit, Vol.VII, Page 225).
"History has hitherto been written by our enemies, who never would have kept a single fact about us upon the record if they could have helped it, and yet it leaks out every now and then that certain poor people called Anabaptists were brought up for condemnation. From the days of Henry II to those of Elizabeth we hear of certain unhappy heretics who were hated of all men for the truth's sake which was in them. We read of poor men and women, with their garments cut short, turned out into the fields to perish in the cold, and anon of others who were burnt at Newington for the crime of Anabaptism. Long before your Protestants were known of, these horrible Anabaptists, as they were unjustly called, were protesting for the 'one Lord, one faith, and one baptism.' No sooner did the visible church begin to depart from the gospel than these men arose to keep fast by the good old way. The priests and monks wished for peace and slumber, but there was always a Baptist or a Lollard tickling men's ears with holy Scriptures, and calling their attention to the errors of the times. They were a poor persecuted tribe. The halter was thought to be too good for them. At times ill-written history would have us think that they died out, so well had the wolf done his work on the sheep. Yet here we are, blessed and multiplied; and Newington sees other scenes from Sabbath to Sabbath.
As I think of your numbers and efforts, I can only say in wonder - what a growth! As I think of the multitudes of our brethren in America, I may well say, What hath God wrought! Our history forbids discouragement." (From the Metropolitan Tabernacle Pulpit, 1881, Vol. 27, page 249.)

As I understand it Baptists do not believe in infant baptism. The early Christian Church decreed that those who refused baptism to infants are to be excommunicated, no longer a Christian. What evidence do you have that the Christian Church denied infant baptism? What evidence do you have that anyone denied infant baptism in the early Christian Church? What evidence do you have that anyone believed as the Baptists believe in the first 1000 years of the Church?

As I understand the Anabaptist faith there isn't a set of doctrines or beliefs that all conform to. Basically, it's a free-for-all as individuals interpret how the Holy Spirit is speaking to them. How in the world does this enable the unity that Jesus prayed for?

-Ernie-

jaybird88 · Dec 29, 2017

Inquistor said:

none the less it was a book that nobody seemed to have a problem with, then rome takes over and the book is gone. it was one of many books.

Ernie07 · Dec 29, 2017

notuptome said:

How did we get the Bible? Was it written on stone like the 10 commandments? Dropped from the sky intact? I've been talking about the 66 vs the 73 book Bible...I assume that you use the 66 book bible so how do you know that you're reading from the correct Bible? If you're basing all of your beliefs on this book I would imagine you'd want to know that you're reading from the true Bible.

The Bible itself doesn't mention the number of books it should have so why 73 and not 66 or 92 or 51? The Holy Spirit worked through people (just like the writing of the Bible) to determine that the correct number is 73. This was determined in the 4th century. Why do you trust this decision but not the other decisions made by the same group? If they could make an unerring decision on the books in the Bible how could they be erring on other beliefs? If they could err then how do you know they didn't err on the number of books?

Don't get clouded by the term "transubstantiation". The Real Presence of Jesus is clearly shown in the Bible but you just choose to believe your own interpretation, which would have had you kicked out of the early Christian Church.

The reason why I don't know for sure if I'm saved is because I'm not arrogant enough to think that I might not foresake the Lord later in my life. The devil tempts me on a daily basis. That's why Paul called it a "race" and that Jesus said we must persevere to the end. To say that I can commit sin and not be sorry and yet still be saved is an affront to God. Yes, I believe I've been saved (if I were to die today I have no unconfessed mortal sins) and that I'm being saved (by running the race by faith), and that I will be saved (as long as I remain faithful to my Lord). I have great hope and confidence, but not arrogance which God hates.

-Ernie-

Ernie07 · Dec 29, 2017

mailmandan said:

Nice reasons and anyone can have their own personal opinions similar to having their own interpretations of scripture. I'd rather side with the early Christian Church who Jesus protected from error rather than an individual's opinion. These are the books that the early Christian Church believed to be inspired (Google Latin Vulgate) and that the Catholic Church still believes today. All of this can be easily researched and validated.

Books of the Bible - Bible - Catholic Online

Ernie07 · Dec 29, 2017

Inquistor said:

Got it. As I did my research it was a little confusing trying to keep the books straight because of name changes and consolidation. I believe we are saying the same thing. I simply use the number 73 because that is the number of books in today's Catholic Bible. But, now that I understand your use of the number 80 I do believe we're saying the same thing.

Thanks!

-Ernie-

Ernie07 · Dec 29, 2017

Inquistor said:

My issue with the KJV bible is that it doesn't recognize the deuterocanonicals books as inspired so in my mind it doesn't represent the true Bible. As a result, I do not reference that bible in any discussions. But, I see where you're coming from.

-Ernie-

Jackson123 · Dec 29, 2017

Ernie07 said:

Hello Ernie,

to me, salvation is the most imprtance thing in my life. It is because every thing else in the world is temporary. I entrust my salvation to Jesus alone, church is an association of people with all kind of personal agenda. Some may pure, some for fame or money. History prove how the church play AS people agenda, not Christ agenda, they kill people that bloking they agenda, to me It is unbiblical and stay away from that church.

to be save we only need Jesus.

like you say, If every body lead by the same Holy Spirit, why so many different believe?

There are 100 student go to same school, they may have different opinion on the same object.

in my opinion, this is because No body perfect. I can tolerate different AS long AS not significant.

I am sory to say, If the different only the way they baptist, or un significant thing, It is No problem to me

catholic pray to Mary, to me It is huge different, I do not believe Holy Spirit lead us to pray to Mary

About Jesus want unity, I believe in the sense of doctrine, If the doctrine not unite the unity Will only falshood.

so let every body have a freedom to chose, with believe they think biblical, God give us freedom, He do not want us to twist other arm to follow our believe system, no killing or forcing

Ernie07 · Dec 29, 2017

jaybird88 said:

Hi Jaybird,

The Christian Church beginning in 382 A.D. formally didn't include the Shepherd of Hermas in the canon of scripture. At that time there was only a single Christian Church that was universal representing all Christians. Some try to claim it was the Catholic Church in order to confuse. In all church council documents up to the 16th century the Christian Church was labeled "catholic" (small c) to denote that it was the universal Christian Church.

You're correct in that non-Catholics changed the Bible used for over a 1000 years by removing 7 books in order to align with their heretical teachings. I say this in all seriousness because what they started to preach (the 5 solas) was never to be found as beliefs held by the Christian Church. In essence, they created a new form of Christianity unknown for the first 1500 years of the Church's existence.

-Ernie-

Ernie07 · Dec 29, 2017

Inquistor said:

I'm truly stunned that Christians will pick and choose scripture in order to further their own interpretative bias. Jesus prayed for unity. The opposite of unity is letting people decide truth for themselves based on how the Holy Spirit communicates to them. Based on this belief system truth is not definitive, but rather based on the whims and opinions of any individual. And the result is 1000's of different "churches" claiming to have The Truth. How do they not see the madness in all of this?

Imagine if our court systems operated like this? Actually imagine if we had no court systems!? Truth would be based on what you think it is. Who would decide who's right? What if we didn't have a Supreme Court? Can you even have a society without a set of rules where individual interpretations were not decided on? I think we'd all agree that we would have mass chaos and confusion and yet that is what many Christians believe is a good thing when it comes to our faith.

Pure madness...

-Ernie-

notuptome · Dec 29, 2017

Ernie07 said:

Nothing matters except that you should know with certainty your eternal salvation. It is not arrogant to trust the word of God. You have no security because the Roman catholic church will not teach it. They divide sin into groups while the word of God considers all sin the same.

Jas 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

Sanctification is a race while salvation is an event. It is a new birth in Christ. Those who are born again by grace through faith know it because of the bible.

2Co 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Ernie07 · Dec 29, 2017

Jackson123 said:

Hello Jackson,

There's much that I agree with in what you say, but what I'd like to focus on is your comment that 100 students go to same school and have different opinions. I use the example of seeing a replay of an event and even then people will come to different conclusions. But, Jesus knew this and that is why He not only built His Church, but said He would protect it. Left to ourselves there is no way we can determine and collectively agree on truth. We are too easily deceived and what we think to be the Holy Spirit is actually our own thoughts. That is why Jesus needed to protect His Church from error. Aligned with His Church and we have unity. Outside of His Church and we have fragmentation. This has played itself out ever since the early 16th century.

I also agree in your statement about not wanting to twist the arm of someone to "force" them to believe. I think we need to speak the truth and then let the Holy Spirit work in us, but as the parable says we need to be "good soil" so that the seeds may grow 30, 60, 100 fold!!!

God Bless!

-Ernie-

notuptome · Dec 29, 2017

Ernie07 said:

I'm truly stunned that Christians will pick and choose scripture in order to further their own interpretative bias. Jesus prayed for unity. The opposite of unity is letting people decide truth for themselves based on how the Holy Spirit communicates to them. Based on this belief system truth is not definitive, but rather based on the whims and opinions of any individual. And the result is 1000's of different "churches" claiming to have The Truth. How do they not see the madness in all of this?

Imagine if our court systems operated like this? Actually imagine if we had no court systems!? Truth would be based on what you think it is. Who would decide who's right? What if we didn't have a Supreme Court? Can you even have a society without a set of rules where individual interpretations were not decided on? I think we'd all agree that we would have mass chaos and confusion and yet that is what many Christians believe is a good thing when it comes to our faith.

Pure madness...

-Ernie-

Here is the pot calling the kettle black.

A church so called that teaches a man can take the place of Christ on the earth. Sheer lunacy.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Ernie07 · Dec 29, 2017

notuptome said:

Oh, if salvation were so easy!!

MT 5:19 "Whoever loosens one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever will have done and teaches these will be called great in the kingdom of heaven". These would be venial sins.

MT 12:32 "But whoever will have spoken against the Holy Spirit shall not be forgiven, neither in this age or the age to come". This would be an example of a mortal sin.

The above is the teachings of the early Christian Church and also that of the Catholic Church today. Your interpretation of salvation would have been something completely foreign to the early Christian Church. It's definitely a "feel good" kind of belief system, but unfortunately one that was never believed by the Church...and one that puts many souls at peril!!

Substantiated truth versus personal interpretation of the truth...that is the question.

-Ernie-

Ernie07 · Dec 29, 2017

notuptome said:

You misunderstand the Catholic faith. The priest represents Christ since we still await Jesus' return. Big difference from "taking the place of" as if no longer needed. How else would we "do this in memory of me" if we didn't have a priest that represents our High Priest?

I answered your contention and now could you answer the questions I posed on my previous post to you and others that I have asked you? You have adeptly evaded my questions and I'd love to hear your explanation.

-Ernie-

notuptome · Dec 29, 2017

Ernie07 said:

For you it is hard. You must leave all your pride and accomplishments behind. Hard for the very religious to become like a little child and simply believe and trust on Jesus.

Ac 16:30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?

Philippian Jailer received the answer believe.

You are unable because you are convinced that you must earn your way into heaven. Well just so you know even the smallest sin will keep you from heaven.

That's in every bible and has nothing to do with transubstantiation.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Lucy-Pevensie · Dec 29, 2017

notuptome said:

And there is the evil restriction on the priesthood which forbids them to marry. This should never have been imposed on men who wanted to serve God. A man should only stay celibate if he chooses to as an individual. Again the Vatican adopted a Roman pagan practice contrary the The word of God

1 Timothy 4 King James Version (KJV)

4 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;
3 Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.

1 Corinthians 7 King James Version (KJV)

7 Now concerning the things whereof ye wrote unto me: It is good for a man not to touch a woman.
2 Nevertheless, to avoid fornication, let every man have his own wife, and let every woman have her own husband.
3 Let the husband render unto the wife due benevolence: and likewise also the wife unto the husband.
4 The wife hath not power of her own body, but the husband: and likewise also the husband hath not power of his own body, but the wife.
5 Defraud ye not one the other, except it be with consent for a time, that ye may give yourselves to fasting and prayer; and come together again, that Satan tempt you not for your incontinency.
6 But I speak this by permission, and not of commandment.
7 For I would that all men were even as I myself. But every man hath his proper gift of God, one after this manner, and another after that.
8 I say therefore to the unmarried and widows, it is good for them if they abide even as I.
9 But if they cannot contain, let them marry: for it is better to marry than to burn.

Because the Catholic Church has chosen to ignore The Bible and follow pagan practise in this, they have burdened their priesthood.
I believe this is the root cause of some of them becoming entangled in the child sex-abuse we have heard so much about over the years.
The Vatican is responsible for this. Men who serve God should not, according to scripture be forbidden to marry. The Catholic Church
has yet to address this problem and line up with scripture.

notuptome · Dec 29, 2017

Ernie07 said:

I understand the catholic church doctrine. I also know it's not biblical.

It does not matter how many books are in the bible if you are not saved and sealed unto the day of redemption by the grace of God through the faith that comes from hearing the word of God.

Catholics have a form of religion but they deny the power of God to save.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

NicholasLoren · Dec 29, 2017

let me shoot this question,if catholics aren't Christians.Why do they follow Jesus Christ,and who do the Buddhists pray to and other religions like of Indians,Thailand,and many other. Doesn't God recognize their presence and prayer if they ain't Christians.
We humans ain't supposed to judge who is saved and not.

notuptome · Dec 29, 2017

NicholasLoren said:

There are great numbers of people who profess Christ yet do not possess Christ. They have gone to a Jesus who is not the Jesus of God. They make a Jesus they like not the Jesus in the bible. Read Romans chapter one for details.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

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