Is Catholicism the Oldest Christian Faith?
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Hello Funkus, in what way(s) do you believe that the practice of kneeling down and praying before statues of Mary is "helpful" 
Thanks
As for using the translation, "full of grace", while I believe that is a literal translation, it's not what the word means in this context .. because the emphasis is not meant to rest of the receiver of God's grace (which deeming Mary "full of grace" does) rather, the translation hail or greetings, "favored one" should be used, so that the emphasis of the passage rests where it needs to rest contextually, upon the Giver of the grace instead.
Here's what one of my commentaries, one that was written by Roman Catholics exclusively, has to say about Luke 1:28.
Just FYI, Ephesians 1:6 uses the very same word to describe all believers .. Ephesians 1:6/Luke 1:28*, and just like Mary, we are said to be the recipients, not the dispensers, of His Divine grace.
The anti-Biblical, cult-like overemphasis of Mary, to the point that the RCC describes their devotion of her as a secondary kind of "worship" (veneration)*, is where a number of their heretical beliefs stem from, flourish and/or escalate (and sadly, what I believe is behind many non-RC's failure to honor her highly enough).
~Deut
p.s. - By addressing her as favored one, Gabriel indicated that Mary had nothing to fear, but was to become the recipient of God’s grace. There was nothing intrinsically worthy about her that set her above other believers, as if she was perfectly holy; like all people, she was a sinner (cf. Job 25:4; Ps. 14:1–3; Eccles. 7:20; Isa. 53:6; Rom. 3:12, 23) in need of God’s grace (Acts 15:11; 18:27; Rom. 3:24; 5:15, 17; Eph. 1:7; 2:5, 8; 2 Tim. 1:9; Titus 3:7).
The salutation has been confiscated to form the basis of the familiar Roman Catholic prayer known as the Ave Maria (“Hail Mary”). The erroneous premise of that prayer, based on the Latin Vulgate’s rendering of favored one as gratia plena (“full of grace”), is that Mary has been granted and possesses fullness of grace, which she then bestows on others.
In his encyclical Ad Diem Illum Laetissimum, Pope Pius X, in a bizarre distortion of truth, has called Mary not the recipient of grace, but the “Dispensatrix [dispenser] of all the gifts that Our Savior purchased for us by His Death and by His Blood; the supreme Minister of the distribution of graces; the distributor … of the treasures of His merits.” Pope Leo XIII agreed, declaring in his encyclical Octobri Mense that “Mary is the intermediary through whom is distributed unto us this immense treasure of mercies gathered by God.” Pope Pius IX’s encyclical Ineffabilis Deus cited the Catholic Church’s belief that Mary is “the seat of all divine graces … adorned with all gifts of the Holy Spirit … an almost infinite treasury, an inexhaustible abyss of these gifts.” Summing up the Catholic view that Mary is the mediator of all graces Ludwig Ott writes, “Since Mary’s Assumption into Heaven no grace is conferred on man without her actual intercessory co-operation” (Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma [St. Louis: B. Herder, 1954], 209).
That false, unbiblical view of Mary is an integral part of the Roman Church’s practice of Mariolatry (the veneration and worship of Mary), which blasphemes the Lord Jesus by worshiping another. In reality Mary was a humble, redeemed sinner. ~MacArthur, J. F., Jr. (2009). Luke 1–5 (p. 46). Chicago: Moody Publishers.[/indent]
*(Latria is sacrificial in character, and may be offered only to God. Catholic and Orthodox Christians offer other degrees of reverence to the Blessed Virgin Mary and to the Saints; these non-sacrificial types of reverence are called hyperdulia and dulia, respectively. In English, dulia is also called veneration.[4] Hyperdulia is essentially a heightened degree of dulia provided only to the Blessed Virgin.[5] )
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Thanks
As for using the translation, "full of grace", while I believe that is a literal translation, it's not what the word means in this context .. because the emphasis is not meant to rest of the receiver of God's grace (which deeming Mary "full of grace" does) rather, the translation hail or greetings, "favored one" should be used, so that the emphasis of the passage rests where it needs to rest contextually, upon the Giver of the grace instead.
Here's what one of my commentaries, one that was written by Roman Catholics exclusively, has to say about Luke 1:28.
Luke 1
28. hail, full of grace: The Greek is melodious, chaire kecharitōmenē. The word “grace” (charis) is associated in Lk with joy (chara) and wisdom (sophia). Greek verbs, ending in oō, as is the case here, do not imply fullness but rather instrumentality. Luke’s word puts the emphasis upon the source of goodness, rather than upon its effects. In regard to Mary, therefore, he points out that she is the object of God’s grace and favor. Because the verb is also a participle, Mary is shown to have been chosen for a long time past; God’s full flow of favor has already been concentrating upon her (cf. M. Cambe, RB 62 [1963] 193-207).
P. Joüon translated the passage: “I salute you, object of [divine] favor” (NRT 66 [1939] 797). The Hebr form of the salutation would be šālôm lāk, “Peace to you” (cf. 24:36; Jn 20:19, 26). ~Brown, R. E., Fitzmyer, J. A., & Murphy, R. E. (1996). The Jerome Biblical commentary (Vol. 2, p. 122). Englewood Cliffs, NJ: Prentice-Hall.
Just FYI, Ephesians 1:6 uses the very same word to describe all believers .. Ephesians 1:6/Luke 1:28*, and just like Mary, we are said to be the recipients, not the dispensers, of His Divine grace.
*(the Scripture link above includes the NASB translation, two Catholic translations of the Bible, and a Greek-English Interlinear, translation by Dr. Mounce)
The anti-Biblical, cult-like overemphasis of Mary, to the point that the RCC describes their devotion of her as a secondary kind of "worship" (veneration)*, is where a number of their heretical beliefs stem from, flourish and/or escalate (and sadly, what I believe is behind many non-RC's failure to honor her highly enough
).~Deut
p.s. - By addressing her as favored one, Gabriel indicated that Mary had nothing to fear, but was to become the recipient of God’s grace. There was nothing intrinsically worthy about her that set her above other believers, as if she was perfectly holy; like all people, she was a sinner (cf. Job 25:4; Ps. 14:1–3; Eccles. 7:20; Isa. 53:6; Rom. 3:12, 23) in need of God’s grace (Acts 15:11; 18:27; Rom. 3:24; 5:15, 17; Eph. 1:7; 2:5, 8; 2 Tim. 1:9; Titus 3:7).
The salutation has been confiscated to form the basis of the familiar Roman Catholic prayer known as the Ave Maria (“Hail Mary”). The erroneous premise of that prayer, based on the Latin Vulgate’s rendering of favored one as gratia plena (“full of grace”), is that Mary has been granted and possesses fullness of grace, which she then bestows on others.
In his encyclical Ad Diem Illum Laetissimum, Pope Pius X, in a bizarre distortion of truth, has called Mary not the recipient of grace, but the “Dispensatrix [dispenser] of all the gifts that Our Savior purchased for us by His Death and by His Blood; the supreme Minister of the distribution of graces; the distributor … of the treasures of His merits.” Pope Leo XIII agreed, declaring in his encyclical Octobri Mense that “Mary is the intermediary through whom is distributed unto us this immense treasure of mercies gathered by God.” Pope Pius IX’s encyclical Ineffabilis Deus cited the Catholic Church’s belief that Mary is “the seat of all divine graces … adorned with all gifts of the Holy Spirit … an almost infinite treasury, an inexhaustible abyss of these gifts.” Summing up the Catholic view that Mary is the mediator of all graces Ludwig Ott writes, “Since Mary’s Assumption into Heaven no grace is conferred on man without her actual intercessory co-operation” (Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma [St. Louis: B. Herder, 1954], 209).
That false, unbiblical view of Mary is an integral part of the Roman Church’s practice of Mariolatry (the veneration and worship of Mary), which blasphemes the Lord Jesus by worshiping another. In reality Mary was a humble, redeemed sinner. ~MacArthur, J. F., Jr. (2009). Luke 1–5 (p. 46). Chicago: Moody Publishers.[/indent]
*(Latria is sacrificial in character, and may be offered only to God. Catholic and Orthodox Christians offer other degrees of reverence to the Blessed Virgin Mary and to the Saints; these non-sacrificial types of reverence are called hyperdulia and dulia, respectively. In English, dulia is also called veneration.[4] Hyperdulia is essentially a heightened degree of dulia provided only to the Blessed Virgin.[5] )
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hmmm well it seems convenient how this view of Mary magically supports your own theology too!
If it had meant 'favoured one' why didn't the Greek use a common word instead of one unique to all Greek writing?
look i agree theres a tendancy to excess in Catholic dogma, sure, but there's no such thing as Mariolatry, in the end all worship goes back to God even if directed at Mary by mistake or something.
but when you stick an 'ilotary' label on it, it makes it sound bad and try to make it seem like Catholics are some other religion, now thats excess in the opposite direction!
Mary was full of grace, (favour) as she was chosen to be the person to which God would bring his Son into the world. A born again Christian is also "full of grace" as he or she has been called of God and saved. Jesus gave no special veneration towards his mother, but declared in Matthew 12: 48-50 that all who hear and comply to the word of God, the same are brother sister and mother.
Ok, on reflection this is what i believe the key difference is in the Catholic theology regarding Mary and you have to take a step back
Catholics believe the saints are in heaven right now at this moment, this includes any Christian who has passed but consider this means all the apostles then add to this it includes Mary herself
Now contrast this with the prevailing view among protestants that there is a kind of 'soul sleep' and no-one is in heaven right now till the resurrection
I believe it's on this different the whole thing rests
If the Catholic view is right then heaven is alive with the whole 'family' and they see it as hierarchical so Mary is at the top of the tree pretty much in a unique position alongside Jesus, as the Mother of the body of the church
This then explains the veneration and it's all based on what they think heaven looks like and this is the tradition they say was handed down. But i doubt anyone will pick up on this as the cause of the differences over Mary for the reason that the game being played is to paint your opponent in the worst possible light (hence 'Mariolatry' vs 'hating Mary' is part of a game over who is the true church).
Since i came to believe that Catholic view of heaven is correct what they say of Mary makes a lot more sense, that doesn't mean i think they are correct about other things. I'm not trying to change anyone's mind but if anyone's interested in this subject try looking at the view of heaven that Catholics maintain is the reality to see where they're coming from!
Catholics believe the saints are in heaven right now at this moment, this includes any Christian who has passed but consider this means all the apostles then add to this it includes Mary herself
Now contrast this with the prevailing view among protestants that there is a kind of 'soul sleep' and no-one is in heaven right now till the resurrection
I believe it's on this different the whole thing rests
If the Catholic view is right then heaven is alive with the whole 'family' and they see it as hierarchical so Mary is at the top of the tree pretty much in a unique position alongside Jesus, as the Mother of the body of the church
This then explains the veneration and it's all based on what they think heaven looks like and this is the tradition they say was handed down. But i doubt anyone will pick up on this as the cause of the differences over Mary for the reason that the game being played is to paint your opponent in the worst possible light (hence 'Mariolatry' vs 'hating Mary' is part of a game over who is the true church).
Since i came to believe that Catholic view of heaven is correct what they say of Mary makes a lot more sense, that doesn't mean i think they are correct about other things. I'm not trying to change anyone's mind but if anyone's interested in this subject try looking at the view of heaven that Catholics maintain is the reality to see where they're coming from!
S
That is not a prevailing view among protestants. That is the view among SDA, and JW which are considered cults. I am not aware of mainline protestant denominations that believe in soul sleep. I am no expert on the doctrines of every protestant denomination but I think you are way off in your world view by thinking that it is a prevailing view among protestants.
Hello again Funkus, that's an interesting theory, but it does have one flaw, it's simply not true.
What you wrote above (see the bold type portions, in particular) is not/has never been true of Protestant denominations and churches. The doctrine of the sleep of the soul has always been considered to be an heretical teaching by every Protestant church and denomination (well, except for one now, the 7th Day Adventist denomination, a cult which was recently declared to be a Christian church by the WCC).
I grant that there are a number of individuals out here (in online Christendom) who believe it, but they stand alone, or they stand in opposition to their denomination's teaching if they go to church (unless they are 7th Day).
Though our bodies remain in the grave until the resurrection, Protestant teaching is that the souls of all true believers will be conscious in Heaven/in the Lord's presence during the Intermediate State (just like the Bible tells us they will be).
~Deut
What you wrote above (see the bold type portions, in particular) is not/has never been true of Protestant denominations and churches. The doctrine of the sleep of the soul has always been considered to be an heretical teaching by every Protestant church and denomination (well, except for one now, the 7th Day Adventist denomination, a cult which was recently declared to be a Christian church by the WCC).
I grant that there are a number of individuals out here (in online Christendom) who believe it, but they stand alone, or they stand in opposition to their denomination's teaching if they go to church (unless they are 7th Day).
Though our bodies remain in the grave until the resurrection, Protestant teaching is that the souls of all true believers will be conscious in Heaven/in the Lord's presence during the Intermediate State (just like the Bible tells us they will be).
~Deut
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Orthodox Church, like RCC, also claims they are the oldest church and the only correct church.
Every denomination claims they are right and everyone else has it wrong.
When I faced this as a young believer I asked Jesus and prayed,
"Jesus please, reveal to me which church I should go to??? Who is correct?"
I was looking for a doctrinally correct denomination to join. But Jesus gave an unexpected response: "My church is in Heaven..."
I said this to the Orthodox who wanted me to convert into Orthodox, but no one could say "you did not hear this from God" because it was the truth. We all know that Christ's church is in heavenly places. If God wanted to direct me to a denomination, He would have done so - I honestly prayed.
So since that day, I only follow Jesus and seek that church.
Jesus has left the building. Jesus is now building YOU.
Greetings to the Catholics, Orthodox, Protestant, and others who are being BUILT. We will meet one day.
Every denomination claims they are right and everyone else has it wrong.
When I faced this as a young believer I asked Jesus and prayed,
"Jesus please, reveal to me which church I should go to??? Who is correct?"
I was looking for a doctrinally correct denomination to join. But Jesus gave an unexpected response: "My church is in Heaven..."
I said this to the Orthodox who wanted me to convert into Orthodox, but no one could say "you did not hear this from God" because it was the truth. We all know that Christ's church is in heavenly places. If God wanted to direct me to a denomination, He would have done so - I honestly prayed.
So since that day, I only follow Jesus and seek that church.
Jesus has left the building. Jesus is now building YOU.
Greetings to the Catholics, Orthodox, Protestant, and others who are being BUILT. We will meet one day.
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Hello again @Funkus, Purgatory must be considered as well, yes If the RC teaching concerning Purgatory is true, then many/most believers would be in Purgatory during part or all of the Intermediate State, not in Heaven.
However, if Protestant doctrine is correct, then Heaven, not Purgatory, is the place where the saints will reside during the Intermediate State (Protestants do not believe/teach that Purgatory exists).
~Deut
If the RC teaching concerning Purgatory is true, then many/most believers would be in Purgatory during part or all of the Intermediate State, not in Heaven.However, if Protestant doctrine is correct, then Heaven, not Purgatory, is the place where the saints will reside during the Intermediate State (Protestants do not believe/teach that Purgatory exists).
~Deut
The first mention denomination/sect on this side of the 1st reformation is the Nazarene sect or the Way .The Catholic denomination/sect is not mentioned in the bible . They simply say there are no denominations. The kingdom of God is here. Or we are the church. They preach it comes by observation .walking by sight .No faith needed just follow their flesh as a succession of corrupted mankind (apostolic succession) . No such thing.
"I believe it's on this different the whole thing rests"
Absolutely not. This is not even a thing. And, there is no true conflict between Protestants and Catholics (I've gone to a Catholic university for my master's and had no issues with Catholics whatsoever). The conflict has always been between Protestants and the Pope.
A woman at my LCMS lutheran church in Chicago (First Saint Paul) who had just lost a loved one gave a speech after church service once about how it is unbiblical to say that people go to heaven right away upon death, especially when said to silence someone grieving instead of being patient with their grief. She said the Bible mentions we go to heaven on the day of judgement.
As for what happens to the soul upon death, I don't think it matters as long as we eventually make it to Heaven. We will all find out in due time. I'd focus on what brings us together instead on matters of the faith while attentively avoiding what divides us as that comes from Satan.
Mark 3:24 (WEB)
"If a kingdom is divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand."
Absolutely not. This is not even a thing. And, there is no true conflict between Protestants and Catholics (I've gone to a Catholic university for my master's and had no issues with Catholics whatsoever). The conflict has always been between Protestants and the Pope.
A woman at my LCMS lutheran church in Chicago (First Saint Paul) who had just lost a loved one gave a speech after church service once about how it is unbiblical to say that people go to heaven right away upon death, especially when said to silence someone grieving instead of being patient with their grief. She said the Bible mentions we go to heaven on the day of judgement.
As for what happens to the soul upon death, I don't think it matters as long as we eventually make it to Heaven. We will all find out in due time. I'd focus on what brings us together instead on matters of the faith while attentively avoiding what divides us as that comes from Satan.
Mark 3:24 (WEB)
"If a kingdom is divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand."
S
Don't they have an elaborate doctrine on purgatory? Did they ditch that whole theory? I know they quit teaching offerings to help your deceased loved ones shorten their stay in purgatory after the protests of the reformation forced them too, but I thought they still believed in purgatory upon immediate death before access to heaven. A catholic and confirm this.
L
It's not, the word Catholic means universal, so it encompassed all the churches at the time. It didn't become what it is today until after power and political authority was given well after Constantine gave them legal status and built two church buildings in New Rome, also known as Constantinople. Not completing the appostacy until the Pope established papal primacy and tried to excommunicate those inside the church who sought to reform and get back to doing things right. Once they removed the reformers and those who wanted to reform the church basically they had kicked the church out of the building. So the church met elsewhere and established new buildings.
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